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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / January 2007

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Image Stabilisation - why?

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Justin C - 05 Jan 2007 23:54 GMT
(Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).

I keep reading about IS in modern cameras and lenses and people seem to
go on about it as if it's essential. It's not in any camera I have and
it was never in any camera I've ever had.

I've managed to get perfectly good and sharp shots over the years,
hand-held with 450mm lenses. The rule of thumb was that to avoid lens
movement ruining a shot you the shutter speed in fractions of a second
must be at least the length of lens used. So, if you're shooting wide
open in low light with a 50mm lens you can get away with 1/60th sec. But
if you're shooting on a sunny day, but in the woods, with a 450mm you
need 1/500 sec. You know there is a risk of shake so you're careful, if
you can use a tripod you do, if not then a monopod, or a bean bag, or
rest the lens on a branch, or lean against a tree. With a little care
you can get that speed down without needing a tripod.

Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

Signature

Justin C, by the sea.

Mark² - 06 Jan 2007 00:33 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both
> NGs, I intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> to go on about it as if it's essential. It's not in any camera I have
> and it was never in any camera I've ever had.

Ah!  So you're speaking from experience with IS, then, aye??
:)

> I've managed to get perfectly good and sharp shots over the years,
> hand-held with 450mm lenses. The rule of thumb was that to avoid lens
> movement ruining a shot you the shutter speed in fractions of a second
> must be at least the length of lens used. So, if you're shooting wide
> open in low light with a 50mm lens you can get away with 1/60th sec.

Yes.  We're well aware of those guidelines.
But...what if there was a technology available that...without introducing
noise due to higher ISO...would allow you to shoot WELL BELOW that
threshhold with excellent results?
That would be pretty useful, wouldn't it?
Well that is exactly what IS does...

> But if you're shooting on a sunny day, but in the woods, with a 450mm
> you need 1/500 sec. You know there is a risk of shake so you're
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point?

Yes.

>Weren't
> most of the best photo's in the world shot without it?
>
> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

You're not a troll at all.  You're just speaking from your
experience...which doesn't happen to include any with IS lenses. There's no
doubt that great shots are available without IS.  But in those instances
where you don't have enough light to use the "guideline"
shutter-to-extension number...it's nice to be able to shoot with 2 to 8
times less shutter speed and still get the same result hand-held.

IS's only limitation is, of course that it can't deal with subject motion,
although IS lenses with panning modes work extremely well.

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

David J. Littleboy - 06 Jan 2007 01:14 GMT
> IS's only limitation is, of course that it can't deal with subject motion,
> although IS lenses with panning modes work extremely well.

If you are using IS to shoot at 1/100 when you'd need 1/500 to get a sharp
image, you still have a lot of subject stopping potential.

I'd like to see some solid tripod vs. IS comparisons, though. (The problem
with that, though, is that most people don't own a tripod capable of holding
a 300mm lens adequately still for 1/100 second.)

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
Skip - 06 Jan 2007 01:48 GMT
>> IS's only limitation is, of course that it can't deal with subject
>> motion, although IS lenses with panning modes work extremely well.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> David J. Littleboy
> Tokyo, Japan

One of these days, if I ever get one of those mythical "spare times" I'm
really going to try that.  I have a monster Bogen/Manfrotto 3236 (similar to
the current 3258) that should hold a big lens still.  If I'm feeling kinda
flush at the same time as that "spare time" I might even rent a 600 f4 IS
and see what a REALLY big lens will do with IS...

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Mark² - 06 Jan 2007 07:41 GMT
>>> IS's only limitation is, of course that it can't deal with subject
>>> motion, although IS lenses with panning modes work extremely well.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> even rent a 600 f4 IS and see what a REALLY big lens will do with
> IS...

My next "big" (at least for me) will be a FAAAAAR larger ball head that will
TRULY lock a large, heavy set-up down at any angle.  My current ball head is
inadequate without a proper vertical bracket (which I don't have)...not to
mention the simple circumference to literally STOP motion and creep...

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Joan - 06 Jan 2007 10:18 GMT
Why not a three way head Mark?

Signature

Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

: My next "big" (at least for me) will be a FAAAAAR larger ball head that will
: TRULY lock a large, heavy set-up down at any angle.  My current ball head is
: inadequate without a proper vertical bracket (which I don't have)...not to
: mention the simple circumference to literally STOP motion and creep...
Mark² - 06 Jan 2007 20:53 GMT
> Why not a three way head Mark?

I've had and used one for years, but I find it cumbersome at best.

>> My next "big" (at least for me) will be a FAAAAAR larger ball head
>> that will TRULY lock a large, heavy set-up down at any angle.  My
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
>>        www.pbase.com/markuson

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Bill Hilton - 06 Jan 2007 15:38 GMT
> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>
> I'd like to see some solid tripod vs. IS comparisons, though.

I did this with the tests I described below, after noticing that
sometimes at higher shutter speeds the images got worse, which I
tracked down to shooting at the smallest apertures as the shutter got
faster.  (So after this I limited the apertures to the 'sweet spot'
range by changing the ISO values as I shot at different shutter
speeds).

> (The problem with that, though, is that most people don't own a
> tripod capable of holding  a 300mm lens adequately still for
> 1/100 second.)

Any decent tripod can do this (if there is no wind or external
vibration) if you use MLU with a 10 second delay and use an electronic
shutter release (instead of pushing the shutter button with your
finger).

I found the 2 sec delay wasn't enough (still getting some vibrations
from the mirror slap) but 6 sec was plenty with the lenses I used, up
to 500 mm and 1/20th sec).

Bill
David Dyer-Bennet - 06 Jan 2007 16:56 GMT
>> David J. Littleboy wrote:

>> (The problem with that, though, is that most people don't own a
>> tripod capable of holding  a 300mm lens adequately still for
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> shutter release (instead of pushing the shutter button with your
> finger).

Too bad no camera I've owned in 38 years of semi-serious photography
(i.e. I'm not counting my Pixie 127 or even my mother's old Bolsey 35, I
don't start the clock until I got my first SLR) has had MLU.  Hmmm;
well, one does, I've now got an old Nikon F, more as a museum piece
(though I've run one roll through it and it does work) than as a "user"
in my lineup.   I guess if I'd been buying many super-telephoto lenses
and doing things that *could* be done with MLU, I might have had to buy
different bodies too.
Bill Hilton - 07 Jan 2007 14:47 GMT
> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>
> Too bad no camera I've owned in 38 years of semi-serious photography
> (i.e. I'm not counting my Pixie 127 or even my mother's old Bolsey 35, I
> don't start the clock until I got my first SLR) has had MLU.

Do you have a dSLR?  Even the cheapest entry level Canon digital Rebel
has MLU so I'm surprised other brands do not offer this ... I've never
owned a 35 mm or dSLR body that did NOT have MLU (quick count says 2
manual focus Minoltas, 2 Canon film bodies, three Canon digital
bodies), though none of my medium format cameras have it.

> I guess if I'd been buying many super-telephoto lenses
> and doing things that *could* be done with MLU, I might have had to
> buy different bodies too.

I've never used MLU with the long lenses (except as a test case to
determine the highest resolution a lens can obtain) except maybe for
those test shots of the moon.  I use mirror lockup mostly with macro
shots and with landscape shots.  I'm pretty sure this is the norm.

Bill
John Bean - 07 Jan 2007 14:58 GMT
>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Do you have a dSLR?  Even the cheapest entry level Canon digital Rebel
>has MLU

No it does't. Mirror *lock up* means just that - the mirror
is locked in the up position until the lock is released.
Most modern cameras allow a delay to be inderted between
lifting the mirror and opening the shutter which sometimes
can be used as a substitute for MLU, but it isn't the same
thing.

Signature

John Bean

David J. Littleboy - 07 Jan 2007 15:28 GMT
>>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> No it does't.

Interesting. You're right. The 300D seems to be missing mirror lockup. (Or
at least hides it so well I'd have to RTFM.)

> Mirror *lock up* means just that - the mirror
> is locked in the up position until the lock is released.
> Most modern cameras allow a delay to be inderted between
> lifting the mirror and opening the shutter which sometimes
> can be used as a substitute for MLU, but it isn't the same
> thing.

Dunno about "most" but the 5D gives you both mirror lockup (press shutter
release and mirror goes up and stays there; press again and shutter fires
and mirror drops (not much use unless you have a remote release of some
sort, though<g>)) and delayed release (press release, mirror goes up, camera
beeps for 2 seconds, shutter fires).

The funny thing is, I find the "two-phase MLU" (enabled from a menu) on the
5D _worlds_ easier to use than the MLU levers on any of the film SLRs I've
owned (500C, OM-1n, Mamiya 645Pro), yet the lack of a dedicated MLU control
is an incredibly common complaint (and the complainers are incredibly
vociferous) about the 5D. IMHO, they're trying to shoot themselves in the
foot.

David J. Littleboy
Tokyo, Japan
John McWilliams - 07 Jan 2007 18:31 GMT
>>>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> vociferous) about the 5D. IMHO, they're trying to shoot themselves in the
> foot.

Re: Remote release. If one has steady hands, and presses the shutter
release gently with the camera on a sturdy tripod, where is vibration or
movement introduced such that remote release produces better results?

Signature

John McWilliams

acl - 07 Jan 2007 18:46 GMT
> Re: Remote release. If one has steady hands, and presses the shutter
> release gently with the camera on a sturdy tripod, where is vibration or
> movement introduced such that remote release produces better results?

I think it depends what "steady" means. I personally find it impossible
to get sharp 1:1 macro photos at exposures around 1/10s unless I use
mirror lock up and a remote release (or indeed a 0.4s release delay,
but then I have to be careful to press the shutter release softly).
Part of the reason is shake from the mirror flipping (this necessitates
using MLU), part is the magnification, and part the fact that I am
often too  lazy to make fine adjustments to my tripod's legs, so end up
extending the centre column (this destabilises the whole thing).

This is obviously a function of the tripod, the magnification, and so
on.
Bill Hilton - 07 Jan 2007 22:15 GMT
> John McWilliams wrote:
>
> Re: Remote release. If one has steady hands, and presses the shutter
> release gently with the camera on a sturdy tripod, where is vibration or
> movement introduced such that remote release produces better results?

Hi John,

I bumped into this problem while taking 3 frames on a tripod at each
aperture of Roger's test pattern to find the 'best' resolution of a
lens before subsequently testing it hand-held.  I could see variations
between the shots, indicating it wasn't entirely stable.

What I found was that just pressing hard enough on the shutter of the
XTi was enough to cause small vibrations at some shutter speeds.  This
was on a very stable tripod setup (Gitzo 1325 carbon fiber with
Arca-Swiss B1 head).  Whether this was because this camera needs a
robust push on the shutter button to fire or because of some problem
with the way I was doing it I cannot say.

Using the 2 second delay option didn't work well because it's not long
enough to totally dampen the mirror slap vibrations.  There was no 10
sec option on this body, so I bought my wife a remote release for it
and set the MLU option and found that with a wait of 5-6 sec I got 100%
repeatable results, which was what I was looking for.

Bill
Bill Hilton - 07 Jan 2007 15:34 GMT
>> Bill Hilton
>>
>>  Even the cheapest entry level Canon digital Rebel
>> has MLU

> John Bean wrote:
>
> No it does't.

Yes it does.  You set it with CF-7 ... I just got thru using it last
week.

> Mirror *lock up* means just that - the mirror
> is locked in the up position until the lock is released.

This is how it worked with the older mechanical cameras, like my
original Minolta SRT-102 ... with the electronic cameras it works
differently.  The 'lock' is released electronically after each shot
instead of manually.  (Actually some of the electronic cameras will
keep the mirror locked up during a bracketing sequence too).

> Most modern cameras allow a delay to be inderted between
> lifting the mirror and opening the shutter which sometimes
> can be used as a substitute for MLU, but it isn't the same
> thing.

With the Rebel you can set MLU, press the shutter once and the mirror
locks up, then wait before pressing the shutter a 2nd time, which fires
the shot and releases the mirror.  You don't have to use the shutter
delay (which is only 2 sec with this model, so not practical).

This is the same function as the older mechanical cameras, the only
difference being that the mirror releases when you press the shutter a
2nd time and the camera manuals also call it "mirror lockup", so why
this meaningless quibble about the definition?  The only difference is
that with the mechanical cameras you had to release the mirror by hand
when done.  Big deal.

Bill
John Bean - 07 Jan 2007 17:09 GMT
>>> Bill Hilton
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>instead of manually.  (Actually some of the electronic cameras will
>keep the mirror locked up during a bracketing sequence too).

Then it's not a lock. Think about a situation when you have
a lens that would foul the mirror - you use MLU and an
external viewfinder to make the pictures. You may never want
or need MLU, but that's one situation where delayed shutter
release is not a substitute for MLU.

>This is the same function as the older mechanical cameras, the only
>difference being that the mirror releases when you press the shutter a
>2nd time and the camera manuals also call it "mirror lockup", so why
>this meaningless quibble about the definition?  The only difference is
>that with the mechanical cameras you had to release the mirror by hand
>when done.  Big deal.

Yes, it can be a big deal when the mirror and lens try to
occupy the same space at the same time. Not all manuals call
it "mirror lockup" either - my Olympus E-1 refers to it as
"anti-shock" to indicate it's primary use.

Signature

John Bean

acl - 07 Jan 2007 17:29 GMT
> Yes, it can be a big deal when the mirror and lens try to
> occupy the same space at the same time. Not all manuals call
> it "mirror lockup" either - my Olympus E-1 refers to it as
> "anti-shock" to indicate it's primary use.

Indeed, on my D200 this function is called "M-Up", which I suppose is
shorthand for mirror up. There is a "mirror lock-up", which is a true
lock-up accessed through the menu and intended for cleaning the sensor
(so can't be used for taking photos).
Bill Hilton - 07 Jan 2007 21:55 GMT
>> John Bean wrote:
>>
>> Yes, it can be a big deal when the mirror and lens try to
>> occupy the same space at the same time. Not all manuals call
>> it "mirror lockup" either - my Olympus E-1 refers to it as
>> "anti-shock" to indicate it's primary use.
-

> acl wrote:
>
> Indeed, on my D200 this function is called "M-Up", which I suppose is
> shorthand for mirror up. There is a "mirror lock-up", which is a true
> lock-up accessed through the menu and intended for cleaning the sensor
> (so can't be used for taking photos).

But if this works like the Sensor Cleaning function in the Canon system
then you don't meet John Bean's definition for 'mirror lockup' either,
since (at least in the Canon) as soon as you turn the power off the
mirror returns to its usual position :)  According to John it has to be
manually locked and unlocked, something that became archaic with
electronic shutters.

I see his point, but it's just meaningless semantics to me.

Bill
John Bean - 07 Jan 2007 22:29 GMT
>>> John Bean wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
>I see his point, but it's just meaningless semantics to me.

It never really applied to Canon EOS, more important to
mounts like Nikon or Pentax that support legacy lenses. It's
not a matter of whether the shutter is mechanical or
electronic, simply whether ot not the mirror can be locked
in the up position - by whatever means - independently of
the shutter.

I realise there's much less need for this than there once
was, but that's no reason to hijack the definition of MLU
and apply it to something else. Call whatever most modern
cameras do as whatever you want, but it's not MLU ;-)

If you think this is "only semantics" you may be right, but
you're only right for the same reasons that some people
think cameras with EVFs are still SLRs, without considering
the meaning of the "R" in SLR. Same applies here - the "L"
in MLU has meaning... or should have.

Anyhow, 'nuff said, too much soap-boxing already.

Signature

John Bean

Ken Lucke - 07 Jan 2007 23:54 GMT
> >>> John Bean wrote:
> >>>
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
> the meaning of the "R" in SLR. Same applies here - the "L"
> in MLU has meaning... or should have.

Well, using that argument, none of us using digital are actually
practising true photography anyway.   I have a 1910 dictionary here
(14" thick - it's a monster) in my "old world" room that defines
photography as:

  "The art of producing images by way of an application of the
   chemical changes produced in certain substances, as silver
   chloride, bromide, or iodide, by the action of light, or more"
   generally of radiant energy."

Because a digital camera produces its images due to _electrical_
changes [or production] in certain substances when exposed to light, we
no longer fit that definition, nor the following one from another
early-century dictionary on hand:

   "The process of producing an image by exposing to light an
    emulsion of light sensitive chemicals on a glass, metal, or
    celluloid film base."

I'm sure that even earlier dictionaries would tie it down even more
closely to only using glass plates and similar equipment.

My point is:  equipmment changes, words change, and both change to
reflect current usage.  To tie a term like "mirror lock up" to
equipment which is no longer prevalent and to maintain that using it in
a current context for an equivalent feature on modern equipment is
wrong, is like saying that we no longer practice photography because
it's not what the original definitions of it specified.

> Anyhow, 'nuff said, too much soap-boxing already.

Well, that much is true, anyway.

Signature

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
       -- Charles A. Beard

acl - 08 Jan 2007 00:14 GMT
> Well, using that argument, none of us using digital are actually
> practising true photography anyway.   I have a 1910 dictionary here
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>     chloride, bromide, or iodide, by the action of light, or more"
>     generally of radiant energy."

Yes! Pedantry for the whole family! Actually, photography means
writing/drawing with light. So...

> My point is:  equipmment changes, words change, and both change to
> reflect current usage.  To tie a term like "mirror lock up" to
> equipment which is no longer prevalent and to maintain that using it in
> a current context for an equivalent feature on modern equipment is
> wrong, is like saying that we no longer practice photography because
> it's not what the original definitions of it specified.

Yes, I actually agree with you here: the meaning of words changes with
time. (well, except for looking in dictionaries for definitions of
technical terms)

> > Anyhow, 'nuff said, too much soap-boxing already.
>
> Well, that much is true, anyway.

Agreed again!
Ron Hunter - 08 Jan 2007 09:09 GMT
>> Well, using that argument, none of us using digital are actually
>> practising true photography anyway.   I have a 1910 dictionary here
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Agreed again!

Living languages change, dead ones don't.  Latin is a dead language,
which is why it is favored by legal and medical practitioners as the
terms mean the same thing now as they did 200 years ago.  It is funny,
based on that, that France seems set of killing their own language by
legislating against adding words to it (changing it).  AND they are
succeeding!
How long ago was it that you saw a 'soap box', let alone anyone actually
making a speech from one?  How long since you actually 'dialed' a
telephone number?  Many terms remain in the language long after the
reason for their use has gone into the mists of history.  Even spellings
tend to change over the years.
acl - 07 Jan 2007 17:25 GMT
> With the Rebel you can set MLU, press the shutter once and the mirror
> locks up, then wait before pressing the shutter a 2nd time, which fires
> the shot and releases the mirror.  You don't have to use the shutter
> delay (which is only 2 sec with this model, so not practical).

Why is it not practical? My camera has a .4s delay (in addition to
MLU), and it is very practical indeed for lots of situations (more than
the MLU in some). Eg using a beanbag and an exposure of a few seconds
with a 90mm lens; using the shutter release button twice with MLU
negates the purpose.Or resting the camera against some makeshift
support (a pillar in a church). And so on.

I think the point is that there is more to this than using very long
lenses on tripods (which is probably what you mean).

> This is the same function as the older mechanical cameras, the only
> difference being that the mirror releases when you press the shutter a
> 2nd time and the camera manuals also call it "mirror lockup", so why
> this meaningless quibble about the definition?  The only difference is
> that with the mechanical cameras you had to release the mirror by hand
> when done.  Big deal.

It's not meaningless, there are lenses that protrude into the mirror
box and therefore cannot be used unless you can really lock the mirror
up between mounting and unmounting the lens.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Jan 2007 17:55 GMT
>>This is the same function as the older mechanical cameras, the only
>>difference being that the mirror releases when you press the shutter a
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> box and therefore cannot be used unless you can really lock the mirror
> up between mounting and unmounting the lens.

How is this practical?  You couldn't focus or even compose
an image accurately.  I never needed it in 40+ years
of photography, not even on a telescope, where I would
open the shutter and open the back of the film camera
and focus using a Foucault test in the film plane.
Then put the film in.  You can't do that on a digital
camera, so I see no point in having that function
anymore.  I don't need a buggy whip for my car either,
and my car need not be backwards compatible with
buggy whips.

(If permanent MLU it were needed, it would be a simple
firmware upgrade.)

Roger
acl - 07 Jan 2007 18:14 GMT
> > It's not meaningless, there are lenses that protrude into the mirror
> > box and therefore cannot be used unless you can really lock the mirror
> > up between mounting and unmounting the lens.
>
> How is this practical?  You couldn't focus or even compose
> an image accurately.  I never needed it in 40+ years

It's not practical to use "real" MLU, I agree. That does not mean that
there is no distinction between the two, does it? If you think that I
am fixating here on semantics, apologies.

> of photography, not even on a telescope, where I would
> open the shutter and open the back of the film camera
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> (If permanent MLU it were needed, it would be a simple
> firmware upgrade.)

Right. I was pointing out that a distinction between the two exists.
Personally, I could not care less about actually having the ability to
lock up the mirror bet exposures or not, as I don't have any such lens,
and have not seen any interesting used ones. If I did, I think I'd have
a different view.
Bill Hilton - 07 Jan 2007 21:50 GMT
>>  Bill Hilton wrote:
>>
>> With the Rebel you can set MLU, press the shutter once and the mirror
>> locks up, then wait before pressing the shutter a 2nd time, which fires
>> the shot and releases the mirror.  You don't have to use the shutter
>> delay (which is only 2 sec with this model, so not practical).
-

> acl wrote:
>
> Why is it not practical?

You are locking up the mirror to avoid the shake caused by the mirror
slap, which affects the sharpness between a certain range of shutter
speeds (typically 1/8 - 1/30th sec).

A 2 second delay isn't long enough to let the vibrations damp down on
this body (I know this for certain because I can see it when looking at
Roger's test at high magnification).  The cameras I use have 2 or 10
sec delays and 10 sec is always enough, but this Rebel XTi doesn't have
a 10 sec option.

It looked like 5-6 sec was always enough once I started using the
remote release (I didn't test this exhaustively), which agrees with
other tests I've seen.

> My camera has a .4s delay (in addition to
> MLU), and it is very practical indeed for lots of situations

I can't imagine what .4s delay buys you ... you're right in the middle
of the mirror slap.

> It's not meaningless, there are lenses that protrude into the mirror
> box and therefore cannot be used unless you can really lock the mirror
> up between mounting and unmounting the lens.

The only 35 mm lenses I'm familiar with that require this are old
Minolta ultra-wide angles (I think 20 or 21 mm, something like that),
designed probably 45 years ago for the old Minolta manual focus mount
in the MC and MD lens era.  But once you move into the world of
electronic shutters, which don't manually lock up, then lenses like
these are unuseable.

So who really cares?

Bill
acl - 07 Jan 2007 23:17 GMT
> >>  Bill Hilton wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> sec delays and 10 sec is always enough, but this Rebel XTi doesn't have
> a 10 sec option.

Well, resting my camera against a wall or something similar, I find it
useful (to avoid pressing the shutter release with my finger and shake
the camera). Since I actually carry my SLR all the time, not just when
I am going somewhere specifically to shoot something, I often have to
do this (I almost always take photos on my way to and from work, ie
often at night or early morning). The results may or may not be the
best possible, but they're better than handholding (or nothing).

Regarding mirror slap: I do not use anything longer than 90mm at the
moment, and using the .4s delay does require considerably more care
than using MLU and a remote release, but I can assure you it can give
identical results, at least as far as I can see when looking at
pixel-level on my screen. It may take 2-3 tries though, and holding the
tripod to damp the vibrations, especially at high magnifications
(macro). Anyway, clumsy, but useful if you forget the remote release
home :). It's ok if you don't believe this, let's not get into an
argument. Maybe I am blind or incompetent, but these are my findings.

> It looked like 5-6 sec was always enough once I started using the
> remote release (I didn't test this exhaustively), which agrees with
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I can't imagine what .4s delay buys you ... you're right in the middle
> of the mirror slap.

Well, as I said, I tried this and it sort of works. I'm sure it depends
on the tripod, lens (focal length, physical properties etc), how you
trigger (shutter release button or remote release), and many other
things. But my point was that some people do not always have a good
tripod with them, or a remote release, or any good means of support. If
you have a tripod and a remote release cable, then obviously it would
be stupid to use this delayed release thing.

> > It's not meaningless, there are lenses that protrude into the mirror
> > box and therefore cannot be used unless you can really lock the mirror
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> So who really cares?

I know for sure there's a Byelorussian (or whatever the correct
spelling is nowadays) 8mm fisheye that needs this and fits Nikons.
Costs 1/5 (or maybe even less) the price of the equivalent Nikkor
(which is also discontinued for some years, if I am not mistaken). I am
sure there are others, but cannot really bothered to search now as I
don't think I am actually disagreeing on this with you. Anyway, if you
don't care about these, fine (I don't either, its  image quality is far
too bad). I was just making a point. Which it looks like it will not be
conceded, and I think we are all now arguing just to argue.
Bill Hilton - 08 Jan 2007 01:38 GMT
> acl wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> don't think I am actually disagreeing on this with you. Anyway, if you
> don't care about these, fine

Achilleas, when I say "I don't care" about a lens like this I mean it
won't fit any camera body I have, nor any camera body I have used the
past many years (since switching to Canon EOS systems).  I realize
lenses like this exist (I mentioned the old ultra-wide Minoltas with
the same protruding rear element) but "I don't care" personally :)

Just curious, will a lens like this mount on your Nikon D200?  That is,
can you lock the mirror up mechanically and shoot with this lens?  Not
trying to pick an argument, just curious as to whether other high end
dSLRs act like the Canons or if they have a mechanical means of locking
up the mirror.

> Regarding mirror slap: I do not use anything longer than 90mm at the
> moment, and using the .4s delay does require considerably more care
> than using MLU and a remote release, but I can assure you it can give
> identical results, at least as far as I can see when looking at
> pixel-level on my screen. It may take 2-3 tries though

I was trying to avoid having to shoot several frames and then pick the
best one out of a varying lot ... that's why I was using the remote
release with the long delay between the first shutter push (to raise
the mirror) and the second (to fire the shot) and why 2 sec didn't work
for certain shutter speeds for this kind of test.  What you are doing
is fine for your needs but I wanted to shorten my test times by getting
the best image possible in one shot on the test chart while testing
various apertures.

> Which it looks like it will not be
> conceded, and I think we are all now arguing just to argue.

I don't think you and I are arguing, at least not as much as John and
I, and I understand your points and have no real beefs with them.  You
asked why a 2 sec delay wasn't enough and I tried to explain this,
that's all ... I even understand John's point about mechanical MLU, but
it's terminology in common use now and even Canon calls it that in the
manuals and menus, so each of us can call it what they will and I'm
fine with that too.

Bill
acl - 08 Jan 2007 02:03 GMT
> > acl wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> lenses like this exist (I mentioned the old ultra-wide Minoltas with
> the same protruding rear element) but "I don't care" personally :)

Yes, I remember seeing some Minolta lenses that needed this around 15
years ago (they were already ancient), but I never tried them on my
XD7. I don't remember the focal lengths, but they were very wide.

> Just curious, will a lens like this mount on your Nikon D200?  That is,
> can you lock the mirror up mechanically and shoot with this lens?  Not
> trying to pick an argument, just curious as to whether other high end
> dSLRs act like the Canons or if they have a mechanical means of locking
> up the mirror.

Well, it will certainly mount. But I saw it used on a D70, and
sometimes, when the shutter is fired and the mirror flips up, it *hits
the rear element* :). This depends on where you're focused, if I
remember correctly. And let's not go into its image quality.

As for your specific question, the MLU on the D200 works like all other
DSLRs I know of (press once to lift mirror, again to fire; if you don't
press again in 30s, it fires by itself). I imagine it's the same in the
D2x and so on.

> > Regarding mirror slap: I do not use anything longer than 90mm at the
> > moment, and using the .4s delay does require considerably more care
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> the best image possible in one shot on the test chart while testing
> various apertures.

Well, I also don't enjoy having to look through 5 shots to pick the
sharpest; but I enjoy carry ing my tripod every day to work and back
even less (I cycle there and it's 7+7km). So .4s delay it is.

> > Which it looks like it will not be
> > conceded, and I think we are all now arguing just to argue.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> manuals and menus, so each of us can call it what they will and I'm
> fine with that too.

Yes, I understand yours. I was just trying to get you to say "ah I see,
in that case it's useful". For no particular reason other than that I
was bored :)

One thing that I would find useful is if I could set the time delay
between lifting the mirror and firing. This would make this feature
much more useful (for macros, say). But no: Direct printing buttons
(Canon) and the ability to switch between large and small jpegs (Nikon)
are more important (and as external controls, no less)...
Ken Lucke - 07 Jan 2007 17:43 GMT
> >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> can be used as a substitute for MLU, but it isn't the same
> thing.

YES, it does.  In mirror lockup mode, my Canon 400D (as well as the
formaer 350D) raises the mirror with one shutter release (button,
timer, or cable) and it STAYS that way until I release the shutter a
second time.  I believe that that fits the definition of Mirror Lockup,
don't you?

Don't speak with authority of that which you do not know.

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reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
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John Bean - 07 Jan 2007 18:54 GMT
>> >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>> >>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>second time.  I believe that that fits the definition of Mirror Lockup,
>don't you?

No I don't. You've decided to adopt the term "MLU" to mean
something else, and I agree you're not alone. But mirror
lift and mirror lock-up are two very different things in
some situations that may or may not be important to you -
but different they are, whatever you believe.

>Don't speak with authority of that which you do not know.

Good grief, what a pompous thing to write.

Signature

John Bean

Tony Gartshore - 07 Jan 2007 19:13 GMT
> >YES, it does.  In mirror lockup mode, my Canon 400D (as well as the
> >formaer 350D) raises the mirror with one shutter release (button,
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> some situations that may or may not be important to you -
> but different they are, whatever you believe.

Sorry to butt in here, but I'm a little confused..

In my case I have the 350D but it still has a menu option which Canon
call 'Mirror Lockup'. Custom function #7 in fact..

When enabled the sequence is:

First press of shutter release flips the mirror up and holds it there.
Nothing else happens, there is no preset time interval etc.

When the shutter release is then pressed for a second time the shutter
fires and the mirror returns to its normal position.

T.
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acl - 07 Jan 2007 19:37 GMT
> Sorry to butt in here, but I'm a little confused..
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> When the shutter release is then pressed for a second time the shutter
> fires and the mirror returns to its normal position.

Hi. Nikon calls this "mirror up", and reserves the label "mirror lock
up" for a function in which you press once to lift the mirror and it
then stays up until you switch the camera off (to clean the sensor). I
am not claiming that there is any deep meaning to any of this, just
that not everybody uses the expression to mean the exact same thing.

And if you think about it, "mirror lock up" is more suited to what JB
describes rather than what you and Canon take it to mean, which  is
perhaps better described by "mirror up". But then again, if you
disagree, it's hardly a big deal what we call it! Although it helps if
we're all clear on what we're referring to, and take miscommunications
as just that, rather than opportunities to unleash idiotic rhetorical
flourishes on our unsuspecting readership (not that you did this; I am
merely ranting here).

Cheers, Achilleas
Tony Gartshore - 07 Jan 2007 19:55 GMT
> Hi. Nikon calls this "mirror up", and reserves the label "mirror lock
> up" for a function in which you press once to lift the mirror and it
> then stays up until you switch the camera off (to clean the sensor).

Ah, what Canon call 'Sensor Cleaning' ! :)

(flips the mirror up and opens the shutter until you power off the
camera..)

> I
> am not claiming that there is any deep meaning to any of this, just
> that not everybody uses the expression to mean the exact same thing.

Indeed. Two manufacturers seperated by a common language ?

T.
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Ken Lucke - 07 Jan 2007 21:21 GMT
> > >YES, it does.  In mirror lockup mode, my Canon 400D (as well as the
> > >formaer 350D) raises the mirror with one shutter release (button,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> When the shutter release is then pressed for a second time the shutter
> fires and the mirror returns to its normal position.

He's taking the position that you have to physically lock the mirror
into position, and manually (and physically) unlatch it for it to be a
"true mirror lockup", citing that anything else could be dangerous if
you had the wrong lens on the camera because the mirror could impact
the rear of the lens.

On an [D]SLR, that's ridiculous.  First off, you can't focus, compose,
or meter while your mirror is locked up, so leaving it locked up
between shots is worse than useless.  Second, unless it's been modified
to fit on a camera it's not supposed to be on (for instance, the 18-55
EF-S on a non-EF-S camera), the lens is NOT going to be in the way of
the mirror at any time.

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reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 04:31 GMT
> He's taking the position that you have to physically lock the mirror
> into position, and manually (and physically) unlatch it for it to be a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> EF-S on a non-EF-S camera), the lens is NOT going to be in the way of
> the mirror at any time.

You're young, aren't you?

Several of the really good wideangle lenses in the 1960s protruded into
the body enough that they had to be used with mirror lockup, or the
mirror would hit the rear element (notably the Nikon 21mm f/4,
introduced in 1962 with the F body).  The first couple of Nikon fisheye
lenses (8mm f/8 and 7.5mm f/5.6, I think) also required mirror lockup.

You used scale focusing, or just depth of field (which on a 21mm lens is
rather high).  You put an auxiliary viewfinder in the accessory shoe of
the camera, and composed through that.

And metering wasn't something always done in the camera anyway; the
metering prism for the Nikon F was one of several options.

And in fact you can buy lenses being manufactured *today* that require
mirror lockup -- again, extreme wideangles (I remember an 8mm fisheye
particularly).

To be blunt, you're calling "ridiculous" things I've actually used.
Ken Lucke - 16 Jan 2007 19:24 GMT
> > He's taking the position that you have to physically lock the mirror
> > into position, and manually (and physically) unlatch it for it to be a
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> You're young, aren't you?

Not particularly.

> Several of the really good wideangle lenses in the 1960s protruded into
> the body enough that they had to be used with mirror lockup, or the
> mirror would hit the rear element (notably the Nikon 21mm f/4,
> introduced in 1962 with the F body).  The first couple of Nikon fisheye
> lenses (8mm f/8 and 7.5mm f/5.6, I think) also required mirror lockup.

How many of those cameras were digital?  Notice the name of the bloody
newsgroup?

Signature

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
       -- Charles A. Beard

David Dyer-Bennet - 17 Jan 2007 00:37 GMT
>>> He's taking the position that you have to physically lock the mirror
>>> into position, and manually (and physically) unlatch it for it to be a
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> How many of those cameras were digital?  Notice the name of the bloody
> newsgroup?

Those *lenses* would mount and function on today's digital bodies --
except for the lack of mirror lockup.
Ken Lucke - 07 Jan 2007 23:11 GMT
> >> >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >> >>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
> Good grief, what a pompous thing to write.

Any more so than making a blanket declaration based upon some
personally-preferred definition which is contrary to general usage, and
then defending it based upon semantics?

Explain in minute detail how your defined style of MLU is, on today's
modern [D]SRL, going to be of any benefit over the generallty
understood term/functionality of separately (in an additional step)
moving the mirror out of the way prior to the shutter actualtion?

Signature

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
       -- Charles A. Beard

John Bean - 07 Jan 2007 23:46 GMT
>Explain in minute detail how your defined style of MLU is

[snip]

Ken, go play your childish games with someone else, you're
history to me.

Signature

John Bean

Ken Lucke - 07 Jan 2007 23:55 GMT
> >Explain in minute detail how your defined style of MLU is
>
> [snip]
>
> Ken, go play your childish games with someone else, you're
> history to me.

Sounds like the sound of retreat to me.

Signature

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
       -- Charles A. Beard

David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 04:13 GMT
>>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> can be used as a substitute for MLU, but it isn't the same
> thing.

And I was using the same meaning of "mirror lock up" that you are -- the
right meaning, the only meaning.

Several of the cameras I've had, including all the newer Nikons and both
DSLRs, will flop the mirror at the beginning of the self-timer run.  But
it isn't the same thing, especially with moving subjects.
David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 04:10 GMT
>> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> manual focus Minoltas, 2 Canon film bodies, three Canon digital
> bodies), though none of my medium format cameras have it.

I had a Fuji S2, and now a Nikon D200.  Neither has mirror lockup for
photography (though you can access it for sensor cleaning).

I've owned Miranda, Pentax, Olympus, and Nikon 35mm film SLRs, and none
have had mirror lockup (except the recently-acquired Nikon F, which is
mostly a museum piece for me rather than an in-use camera)

>> I guess if I'd been buying many super-telephoto lenses
>> and doing things that *could* be done with MLU, I might have had to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> those test shots of the moon.  I use mirror lockup mostly with macro
> shots and with landscape shots.  I'm pretty sure this is the norm.

Most macro I've worked the subject isn't still enough to work without
the viewfinder.  Landscapes I don't get into short enough shutter speeds
to want lockup.
Paul Rubin - 14 Jan 2007 08:41 GMT
> I've owned Miranda, Pentax, Olympus, and Nikon 35mm film SLRs, and
> none have had mirror lockup (except the recently-acquired Nikon F,
> which is mostly a museum piece for me rather than an in-use camera)

I remember my old OM-1 had MLU.
Gavin Shaw - 14 Jan 2007 18:50 GMT
The message <45a9ad31$0$44191$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>
from David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b@dd-b.net> contains these words:

> >> David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> > manual focus Minoltas, 2 Canon film bodies, three Canon digital
> > bodies), though none of my medium format cameras have it.

> I had a Fuji S2, and now a Nikon D200.  Neither has mirror lockup for
> photography (though you can access it for sensor cleaning).

[snip]

Not so. The D200 has mirror lockup - 'Mup' - one step past the self-timer on
the left-hand dial.

--
Gavin
http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/gshaw/
David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 19:56 GMT
> The message <45a9ad31$0$44191$8046368a@newsreader.iphouse.net>
> from David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b@dd-b.net> contains these words:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> Not so. The D200 has mirror lockup - 'Mup' - one step past the self-timer on
> the left-hand dial.

The 30-second delay is apparently enough for vibration elimination, but
this is no use with a lens that interferes with the mirror.
J. Clarke - 07 Jan 2007 01:30 GMT
>> David J. Littleboy wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> from the mirror slap) but 6 sec was plenty with the lenses I used, up
> to 500 mm and 1/20th sec).

The thing about a tripod is that you have to do something to use it.  If
the shot is transient and you weren't already set up you're going to miss
it if you rely on a tripod as your stabilization device.
IS can be left on by default and you get the shot.

It's not a competition.  If circumstances allow a stable mount of some
kind then use one.  If they don't, then without IS, unless you're going
for motion blur you're going to get fewer usable images than you will with
it.

> Bill

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David Dyer-Bennet - 06 Jan 2007 16:52 GMT
>> IS's only limitation is, of course that it can't deal with subject motion,
>> although IS lenses with panning modes work extremely well.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> with that, though, is that most people don't own a tripod capable of holding
> a 300mm lens adequately still for 1/100 second.)

I haven't tested to see if my Bogen 3051 is actually up to that or not.
 And I almost *never* bother to haul that monster out for 35mm work; I
use it for the 4x5.  So even people who *might* own such a tripod rarely
*use* it :-).
Charles - 06 Jan 2007 00:38 GMT
>(Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
>intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

When I was younger I used to be able to cheat that  1/mm rule by about
a stop, now I'm older and have to give it a stop.

Running out of light because it's too dark or because I want to use a
higher /f stop is common, IS would help me in those cases.
Tony Gartshore - 06 Jan 2007 13:34 GMT
> When I was younger I used to be able to cheat that  1/mm rule by about
> a stop, now I'm older and have to give it a stop.

Exactly..  Or in my case probably two..

T.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 06 Jan 2007 16:57 GMT
>> When I was younger I used to be able to cheat that  1/mm rule by about
>> a stop, now I'm older and have to give it a stop.
>>
> Exactly..  Or in my case probably two..

Ouch!  I think I've been getting better as I age; then again, part of
what that means is that I rarely actually just stand up and hold the
camera, there's always *something* to lean on, push against, or whatever.
Daniel Silevitch - 06 Jan 2007 01:47 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

With IS, you can hand-hold and shoot at 400mm at 1/40s.

Sometimes, that's useful. Sometimes not.

-dms
Jim - 06 Jan 2007 01:52 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

A very good professional nature photographer once remarked that, before IS,
he was lucky to get one good shot per roll of birds in flight.  With IS, the
ratio has now improved to almost all of the shots.  Most of my shots are of
more stationary target so I would not expect such a dramatic improvement in
my photography.

One example where I could certainly have used help happened in Canada.  I
was trying to photograph an elk, and I was hand holding an F3 with a 300mm
f4 lens.  According to the usual technique, I should have set the shutter to
1/300, but the light was low, and I really needed 1/300 at f2.8.  So, I took
the shot anyway, and it isn't too bad (well, it is a little dark).  With IS,
I could have set the shutter and lens for the light and never given the
problem another thought.
Jim
Steve Cutchen - 06 Jan 2007 02:29 GMT
> > (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> > intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> more stationary target so I would not expect such a dramatic improvement in
> my photography.

This sounds like just the opposite...  

If you have a stationary target, IS will let you slow down the shutter
and  still hand hold.  The movement you are compensating for is you.

But if you have a fast moving target and need to freeze action, you
still have to shoot the higher shutter speed, IS or not, and so are
already fast enough to hand hold.  The movement you need to compensate
for is the subject.
Skip - 06 Jan 2007 02:50 GMT
>> > (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs,
>> > I
[quoted text clipped - 41 lines]
> already fast enough to hand hold.  The movement you need to compensate
> for is the subject.

One thing IS does in this case is compensate for unwanted vertical movement
when panning horizontally.

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Mark² - 06 Jan 2007 08:03 GMT
>>> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both
>>> NGs, I intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> If you have a stationary target, IS will let you slow down the shutter
> and  still hand hold.  The movement you are compensating for is you.

No.  Not in this particular case...because he's referring to PANNING.  *NOT*
the still-holding of teh camera, but PANNING...which IS is extremely helpful
in.

> But if you have a fast moving target and need to freeze action, you
> still have to shoot the higher shutter speed, IS or not, and so are
> already fast enough to hand hold.  The movement you need to compensate
> for is the subject.

Only if he's holding still as the bird flies through his shot...which is
rarely how you'd capture a bird in flight.
Try it sometime.  This is a panning issue, which IS has a huge positive
effect on.

-Mark²

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Bill Hilton - 06 Jan 2007 03:15 GMT
>Jim wrote:
>
> A very good professional nature photographer once remarked that, before IS,
> he was lucky to get one good shot per roll of birds in flight.  With IS, the
> ratio has now improved to almost all of the shots.

I think I know the photographer you speak of, and what he was talking
about was fast predictive autofocus, not image stabilization ... the
example he gave was of photographing eagles in flight, IIRC.

Bill
Jim - 06 Jan 2007 16:55 GMT
> >Jim wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Bill

Yes, you are correct.  I can't remember his name, but I would not identify
him in any case.
AF has certainly helped those folks.  IS seems to help people who do a lot
of hand held panning though.
Jim
Chuck - 06 Jan 2007 07:29 GMT
> > (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> > intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> problem another thought.
> Jim

A comparison with my old Oly OM-2 and a C8080
Effective film/ISO speed
OM-2 400-800  (When I was using it)
C8080 100  (for reasonable noise)

OM2 shutter speeds Usually 1/250 or faster (F2.8 lens)
C8080  Slower by 2-4x or so under same lighting
C8080 can become unusable in daylight with autofocus at full zoom and long
distance, requiring painful manual focus,
due to low resolution of  LCDs in focus mode that uses a digital multiplier
in center of LCD.
For moving objects (racing cars) daylight, full zoom long distance
(infinity)
Focus manually and lock focus and exposure.
Now hand held is possible, with good results.
Without manual focus & lock, even tripod based was NG, due to auto focus
time & lock fail with moving  subjects at long distance.

Next digital camera will be one with easy to use manual focus and zoom.
In my opinion, the automatic features can be useful, but also tend to
cripple the camera when they cannot be easily overidden
Bill Hilton - 06 Jan 2007 02:29 GMT
> Justin C wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

I've been running some tests comparing IS-on to IS-off and also testing
to see at what shutter speeds a slightly inferior lens like the 100-400
IS is better hand-held than a 400 f/5.6 L without IS ... maybe the
methodology I came up with is of interest to some as I struggled to put
a numeric value to make the comparisons clearer.

To show some results first, here are screen dumps of center-crops of 10
hand-held frames from the 24-105 f/4 shot at 105 mm at 1/13th second,
one with IS-on and the other with IS-off ...

http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/tests/all_13th_IS-off_f18.jpg
http://members.aol.com/bhilton665/tests/all_13th_IS-on_f18.jpg

I assigned 'scores' of 8.4 and 4.4 to them based on the average of 10
shots (3.0 is the best this lens did on a pod using MLU and a 10 sec
delay, 10.0 means all are unreadable).  This was based on using Roger
Clark's test pattern and shooting at 10.5 ft ... the pattern can be
downloaded here ... I used Roger's 'px' value on the black W to assign
the numbers, as best as I could judge.

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/relative-lens-sharpness/index.html

With a Rebel XTi and this lens the results for IS-on and IS-off are
almost identical at shutter speeds of 1/400th and 1/200th sec (with the
1.6x the reciprocal-focal length suggests ~ 1/170 th sec for the
'should be OK' speed) but at slower speeds the IS shots are
increasingly better.  For example at 1/400th I get 3.3 or 3.2 for both
but at 1/50th sec it's 3.7 (IS-on) and 7.0 (IS-off).

It also seems to uphold the "3 stops better" rule since the IS-on
frames at 1/13th sec were a bit better than the IS-off frames at
1/100th sec (4.4 vs 5.0).

These are 280 x 220 pixel crops from the center of a 3,888 x 2,592
pixel image.

For the 400 mm tests I got better results with the 400 f/5.6 L at
1/2,000th and 1/1,000th sec (because the lens quality is better) but by
1/500th sec the 100-400 with IS was slightly better, and increasingly
better as I lowered the shutter speed.  For this older lens the "2
stops better" indicated by Canon also seems to hold up.

If I had more time I'd post some of these results for other lenses I've
been testing, which were pretty interesting for several reasons, but
I'm kinda busy right now ... but since this IS Q came up and I had this
data handy I thought I'd toss it out there.

So Justin, all I'd say is that IS is great below certain slow shutter
speeds and irrelevant above certain higher shutter speeds.  If the
shutter speed is TOO slow even IS won't save you, and for higher speeds
it's of no value.

Bill
dwight - 06 Jan 2007 02:47 GMT
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

I used to submit my advertising in four film negatives, one each for C, M,
Y, and K. The process of creating the advertisement in a suitable form to
generate those film negatives was equally cumbersome.

I now design, layout, and proof my advertising on my monitor, then generate
a high-quality PDF that is either emailed or uploaded to the printer. I had
great results from the old film negs, and I get great results now from PDF.
The difference is, I now get more "consistent" results.

I have cameras and lenses without IS, cameras and lenses with it. As a rank
amateur, I wish that EVERY piece of equipment had IS. And the first time I
experienced it, it was a marvel to me.

Image stabilization is another tool in your camera bag, one which helps you
get more out of less. Why would you NOT want it?

dwight
Mark² - 06 Jan 2007 08:09 GMT
>> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't
>> most of the best photo's in the world shot without it?
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Image stabilization is another tool in your camera bag, one which
> helps you get more out of less. Why would you NOT want it?

The answer to that is a simple one, IMO.
=Lack of experience with IS, which is *precisely* what the OP indicates as
his history.

That kind of criticism is understandable (and IMO *only* understandable)
when one hasn't seen it first hand.
IS isn't a miracle, but it is arguably the biggest step in lens technology
in at LEAST the last10 years, or perhaps even more (pre-dating it's
existence, which started in about '96 or so).
Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

David Dyer-Bennet - 06 Jan 2007 17:05 GMT
> I have cameras and lenses without IS, cameras and lenses with it. As a rank
> amateur, I wish that EVERY piece of equipment had IS. And the first time I
> experienced it, it was a marvel to me.

Doesn't the Canon IS (and Nikon VR) system put additional air-glass
interfaces in the light path?  So it probably has some impact on how
prone a lens is to flare, and all those other issues.  I've seen people
recommending the Nikon 80-200 f/2.8 in preference to the newer (forget
the *exact* focal lengths) VR equivalent for that reason (for
applications where the VR wasn't a big win, at least).

> Image stabilization is another tool in your camera bag, one which helps you
> get more out of less. Why would you NOT want it?

Because it has costs -- money, battery life, possibly lens lifespan?,
possibly some image-quality issues.  If it were completely *free*, then
it's a no-brainer.

(Note that the sensor-shifting based IS used by some other companies
avoids the extra air-glass interface problems.)
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Jan 2007 15:06 GMT
>> I have cameras and lenses without IS, cameras and lenses with it. As a
>> rank amateur, I wish that EVERY piece of equipment had IS. And the
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> (Note that the sensor-shifting based IS used by some other companies
> avoids the extra air-glass interface problems.)

1) it is not clear that one needs to add glass to a lens, or just
use one of the lens groups already there.

2) when a lens contains 8-15 lenses already, big deal if one more
is added, especially if it's part of a new design.

3) in-camera sensor moving IS cannot cope with the large range of
lenses you can put on a DSLR.  They will have decreasing effectiveness
as the focal length increases.

I have had SLR cameras for about 40 years, starting with manual,
and started with IS lenses soon after they came out (mid 1990s).
I have IS lenses ranging from 28mm to 500 mm (f/4 L IS).  When
I got a 28-135 IS just before a trip to Ireland, and wondered
if it was worth paying extra for IS.  I was shooting Velvia
(ISO 50) hand held at 1/8 second in dimly lit churches and they came
out very sharp.  There are so many conditions where IS enables
you to get a sharp image that you would normally not be able
to get.  My first trip to Alaska was without IS, and I lost
a spectacular photo of a mother eagle feeding its chick in a nest.
I got images, but none real sharp--I was on a boat.
So many conditions where IS helps, e.g. moving platforms like
cars, boats, airplanes, horseback, as well as quick grab shots
when you don't have time to set up a tripod.

IS really shines when you do telephoto work.  Super telephotos
on a tripod following action: the micro vibrations can ruin
the sharpness in an image unless at very fast shutter speeds.
IS enable sharp images in so many situations in my experience.
With wildlife action, you only get one chance to get the peak action
and without IS your probability of a great image is diminished
in many situations.

I won't buy another lens unless it is IS or is a specialty lens not
available in IS.

Roger
Photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com
Charles Gillen - 07 Jan 2007 16:34 GMT
> 3) in-camera sensor moving IS cannot cope with the large range of
> lenses you can put on a DSLR.

When you attach an older lens (which does not communicate focal length
info) on the Pentax K10D, the camera's IS asks you to select a number
between 8 and 800mm.  I imagine this helps the IS adapt to suit.  

I've verified that setting the IS to 500 was a tremendous advantage with my
500mm mirror lens... a hand-held shot while the viewfinder image wobbled
all over the place still came out sharp.

Signature

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Charles Gillen -- Reston, Virginia, USA

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Jan 2007 18:19 GMT
>>3) in-camera sensor moving IS cannot cope with the large range of
>>lenses you can put on a DSLR.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 500mm mirror lens... a hand-held shot while the viewfinder image wobbled
> all over the place still came out sharp.

It is simple physics.  Let's look at the problem.
Short term hand shake is on the order of an arc-minute,
with drift over a few arc-minutes.  The IS lenses
work over several arc-minutes of camera rotation,
and stabilize short term over about an arc-minute.
With the new crop of 10 megapixel sensors, the
pixel spacing is on the order of 6 microns.  Image
stabilization must be accurate to a fraction of a
pixel (let's say 3 microns for these cameras).

100mm lens: scale is 0.2 arc-minute/pixel, so movement
accuracy of 0.1 arc-minute would be achieved with 3-micron
movement, and for 10 arc-minute limits of movement,
the sensor movement range is 200 pixels or 1.2 mm.
The rate of movement assuming 1-arc-minute hand movement
per 1/30 second would be 150 pixel/second = 900 microns/second
= 0.9 mm/second.

500 lens: 0.04 arc-minute/pixel (= 2.4 arc-seconds/pixel),
so movement of one arc-minute per 1/30 second means
750 pixels/second = 4500 microns/second (4.5 mm/sec) movement
with position accuracy = 2 microns.  Total sensor range
now must be 6 mm.

You can see as you increase focal length two things
become more difficult: total range of movement,
speed of movement, all while keeping the same accuracy.

In-lens based IS, as focal length
increases, magnification increases, so lens movement
decreases, but accuracy of lens placement increases.
However, depending on design, the lens chosen for movement
can be one causing less shift, so requirements for
accuracy can be maintained.  That is the advantage of in-lens
based IS: you customize for that case.

Wildlife and sports photographers often need focal lengths
in the 1000 mm range and higher.  The sensor movement IS
will have difficulty as focal length increases.

Roger
Justin C - 08 Jan 2007 01:12 GMT
> > I have cameras and lenses without IS, cameras and lenses with it. As a rank
> > amateur, I wish that EVERY piece of equipment had IS. And the first time I
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> (Note that the sensor-shifting based IS used by some other companies
> avoids the extra air-glass interface problems.)

I think yours, David, was the only negative post on the subject. I'm
grateful that you've brought some negatives to light for me. While it is
obvious that R&D for something like this has to be paid for somewhere it
wasn't obvious (to me at least) that this would reduce battery life -
but thinking about it now, can you image what a drain that'd be holding
the shutter half-pressed waiting for the moment the lion/clown/bus
turned and faced your way - how long can you hold a half cocked
shutter?! Interesting suggestion regarding the lens lifespan too, I
suppose with more moving parts there's more to go wrong.

Interesting. Thank you, again, for the different point of view.

Signature

Justin C, by the sea.

Bill Hilton - 08 Jan 2007 05:32 GMT
> Justin C wrote:
>
> I think yours, David, was the only negative post on the subject. I'm
> grateful that you've brought some negatives to light for me.

So 50 positive posts and one negative one and you latch on to the
negative one :)  Sounds like you already had your mind made up going in
that you weren't going to like it ...

> ... it  wasn't obvious (to me at least) that this would reduce
> battery life -  but thinking about it now, can you image what a drain
> that'd be holding  the shutter half-pressed waiting for the moment

So how much do you think it reduces battery life?  Would you believe
'very little'?

Someone hooked up a watt-meter to a Canon 10D and measured the power
consumption for various situations ... the display took a lot of power
and auto-focus took a lot of power but IS consumed very little ... the
numbers given for different situations were these, with a 500 f4 L IS
lens (one of the 3 largest IS lenses, so presumably one that would
require a lot more power than shorter lenses):

  0 mA off
98 mA idle (presumably with power on and no display)
388mA (no shutter button contact) presumably with the display on
406mA  (shutter half-press;  exposuring ongoing)
421mA IS only (no autofocus)
665mA AF only (no IS)
672mA IS + AF   with  shutter half-pressed

So less than 5% extra current with IS alone, and about 1% extra current
with AF.  The actual number of shots I get off any given battery varies
much more than that based on the operating temperature or by how many
days it takes me to run down the battery (shooting more frames per day
gives more frames per battery) so I don't even notice or worry about
the effects of IS on battery life.

> Interesting suggestion regarding the lens lifespan too, I
> suppose with more moving parts there's more to go wrong.

Actually you may be on to something here ... my 500 f/4 L IS had a
problem with the IS causing the image to vibrate and blur when the
camera was pointed down at about 30 degrees or more, fixed out of
warranty by Canon (replacing the IS unit) for $180, and my 70-200 f/2.8
L IS also had problems, getting the Err-01 (no connection) when IS was
on ... this lens was still in warranty and fixed for free by Canon,
again with a replacement of the IS circuit board.  So two fails with IS
lenses for me, which is a bit disconcerting.

Bill
Justin C - 12 Jan 2007 00:50 GMT
> > Justin C wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> negative one :)  Sounds like you already had your mind made up going in
> that you weren't going to like it ...

Not at all, I just like to have negatives pointed out when they exist.
(I did see your smiley).


> > ... it  wasn't obvious (to me at least) that this would reduce
> > battery life -  but thinking about it now, can you image what a drain
> > that'd be holding  the shutter half-pressed waiting for the moment
>
> So how much do you think it reduces battery life?  Would you believe
> 'very little'?

And by the time I get a new camera it's going to be completely
different. I'm not in the market for a new camera just now having bought
my first digital a few months ago. I hope to get at least five years out
of this - I expect it to last much longer but there may be some new
"killer" development I want to have. $DEITY knows where we will be in
five years.

Signature

Justin C, by the sea.

Bryan Olson - 12 Jan 2007 06:12 GMT
[...]
> And by the time I get a new camera it's going to be completely
> different. I'm not in the market for a new camera just now having bought
> my first digital a few months ago.

What did you get?

Signature

--Bryan

Justin C - 12 Jan 2007 17:58 GMT
> [...]
> > And by the time I get a new camera it's going to be completely
> > different. I'm not in the market for a new camera just now having bought
> > my first digital a few months ago.
>
> What did you get?

Digilux 2 - second-hand - I couldn't have afforded a new one! And,
besides, they were discontinued by the time I decided to go digital -
luckily someone else was going back to film at the same time! I like the
fact that it can be used completely manual, records RAW, but doesn't
have a interchangeable lenes - which would encourage me to carry *loads*
of extra stuff. My old camera bag must've weighed about 20 kilos and I'm
sure carrying it often and far contributed to my bad back. I found that
I spent so much time thinking about which kit to use for what that I
didn't concentrate on the important thing, the shot. I forgot that it's
the photographer that makes the image, the gear (however expensive) only
captures it.

The only thing I don't like about the camera is the LCD viewfinder, I'd
prefer direct view - however, I don't get parallax errors with it, so
there are some ups, even with the downs.

Another thing I really like about it is the location of the controls,
it's just like an old manual camera, everything is where you expect it
to be. I find I'm able to switch off from thinking about the camera at
all, once I've taken a meter reading it's all instinct, I'm thinking
about the image and not what's going on with the equipment. Bliss - at
least for this (newly realised) luddite.... (whaddya mean your car
doesn't have a starting handle?!)

Signature

Justin C, by the sea.

David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 04:43 GMT
>> Justin C wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> negative one :)  Sounds like you already had your mind made up going in
> that you weren't going to like it ...

He didn't say he'd decided against based on my post; he said that I
provided input he wasn't getting elsewhere.

Let me point out that *I* don't think my post provides a strong argument
against IS for a lot of people and a lot of situations.  I'm just
pointing out that it's not a complete no-brainer; there are tradeoffs
involved.

I'm in the process of waffling over VR or not for a hypothetical upgrade
of my 80-200 (currently a Tokina f/2.8).  I do a lot of low-light
photography, and VR is very tempting.  Then again, I'm very often being
limited by *subject* motion today, and VR won't help with that (head or
hand movements of people, particularly).  The Nikon 80-200 f/2.8 AF-S
would focus much better, and probably be better optically, than what I
have now, and costs a LOT less than the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VR.  But I'm
shooting 1/8 second *now* sometimes, and subject motion kills me more
often than camera shake (using chair backs, pillars, door frames,
sometimes a monopod, all the usual tricks to steady a camera without a
full-blown tripod).

>> ... it  wasn't obvious (to me at least) that this would reduce
>> battery life -  but thinking about it now, can you image what a drain
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> gives more frames per battery) so I don't even notice or worry about
> the effects of IS on battery life.

Hey, real facts are *good*.  5% isn't something I'd worry about, no.

>> Interesting suggestion regarding the lens lifespan too, I
>> suppose with more moving parts there's more to go wrong.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> again with a replacement of the IS circuit board.  So two fails with IS
> lenses for me, which is a bit disconcerting.

But not surprising, given the complexity of additional mechanics
required.  And quite probably worth it for a lot of people.  Do you
regret the IS?  Doesn't sound like it to me.
Paul Rubin - 14 Jan 2007 08:45 GMT
> The Nikon 80-200 f/2.8 AF-S would focus much better, and probably be
> better optically, than what I have now, and costs a LOT less than
> the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VR.

Why do you think the 80-200 AF-S would focus better than the 70-200 VR?
And it doesn't cost THAT much less.  The non-S versions do cost a lot
less and I sometimes think of getting one.

The 70-210 VR is supposed to be superb optically according to reviews
I've seen by people who have tested it on Nikon DSLR's.  But I heard
one report that it's less great with a Kodak DCS-14n (full frame DSLR)
or presumably with 35mm film SLR's.  Apparently it's optimized for the
small DX sensor and while it covers the full 24x36mm frame, its
performance towards the edges suffers.
David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 16:29 GMT
>> The Nikon 80-200 f/2.8 AF-S would focus much better, and probably be
>> better optically, than what I have now, and costs a LOT less than
>> the Nikon 70-200 f/2.8 VR.
>
> Why do you think the 80-200 AF-S would focus better than the 70-200 VR?

I don't; I think it would focus faster than what I have now.

> And it doesn't cost THAT much less.  The non-S versions do cost a lot
> less and I sometimes think of getting one.

It's also much easier to find used than the VR model.

> The 70-210 VR is supposed to be superb optically according to reviews
> I've seen by people who have tested it on Nikon DSLR's.  But I heard
> one report that it's less great with a Kodak DCS-14n (full frame DSLR)
> or presumably with 35mm film SLR's.  Apparently it's optimized for the
> small DX sensor and while it covers the full 24x36mm frame, its
> performance towards the edges suffers.

Hmm, that's an interesting point.  More conflicts for my decision!
Bruce Chastain - 06 Jan 2007 02:53 GMT
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

A few examples.  Hand held in a concert, stadium sports event, dim museum.

All are difficult to get in a fast enough  f-stop / zoom combination, and a
tripod is not permitted in each case.

I've had IS for several months and absolutely love it.

Bruce.
U-Know-Who - 06 Jan 2007 03:53 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

Shaky hands. And lack of propping objects.
ray - 06 Jan 2007 04:39 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

I think the point might be "you don't have to work so hard at it".

> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.
Little Juice Coupe - 06 Jan 2007 04:49 GMT
You would have to use it to understand. It is very useful for many types of
circumstances from people that have nerve disorders that can't hold
perfectly still to being able to hand hold a shot at 1/2 second and more.
Those that have used a stabilized lens or camera seldom go back without a
fight especially if they take the time to learn and understand the charm of
the system.

ljc

> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.
C J Campbell - 06 Jan 2007 07:25 GMT
> I've managed to get perfectly good and sharp shots over the years,
> hand-held with 450mm lenses. The rule of thumb was that to avoid lens
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

The point is that IS changes the rule of thumb that you have been using. The
lens speed now can be 1/4 of the focal length of the lens.
C J Campbell - 06 Jan 2007 07:37 GMT
>> I've managed to get perfectly good and sharp shots over the years,
>> hand-held with 450mm lenses. The rule of thumb was that to avoid lens
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> The point is that IS changes the rule of thumb that you have been using. The
> lens speed now can be 1/4 of the focal length of the lens.

Actually, it the improvement is four stops as some manufacturers claim (and
my experience is that these claims are, if anything, conservative) then the
1/500 shutter speed rule for a 450mm lens becomes 1/60. But it is actually
better than that, at least at medium telephoto range. Using either the
amateur 18-200mm VR Nikkor or the 70-200mm f/2.8 VR Nikkor you are
practically guaranteed getting a steady shot at 1/25 at 200mm. The thing is,
IS keeps functioning, so if you want to really push it down to, say, 1/8, you
have an excellent chance of getting an acceptable shot, whereas if you were
using the old rule of thumb with a non-stabilized lens you would only be
getting an improvement to 1/75 and even then with much less success.

So, yeah, you can get great pictures with a pinhole camera, but having a lens
makes things a lot easier, doesn't it? In the same way IS makes things easier
still.
dicktay - 06 Jan 2007 09:26 GMT
This is why I like it.
http://www.poseruniverse.net/Photography/Canon/IS_1600/Canon_1600_IS.html

Richard

> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> it was never in any camera I've ever had.
>Cut
Ron Hunter - 06 Jan 2007 10:09 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

The benefit is in latitude.  Wider aperture and shutter speed ranges.
Look at it as a 'faster lens', which is about the effect achieved.  Now
wouldn't you rather have a faster lens?
J. Clarke - 06 Jan 2007 13:30 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

Until an innovation has actually been introduced and put in service, _all_
the "best photos in the world" (and the average ones and the really bad
ones as well) were shot without it.  The question is not whether one can
take good photos without it, the question is whether one can take _more_
good ones _with_ it, or take the same good ones one was going to take
anyway with greater convenience.

At one time most of the best photos had been taken without a dry, storable
emulsion, color film, a shutter, a viewfinder, a hand-holdable camera, etc.
If what had been used to take "most of the best photos" was the criterion
for acceptance of an innovation we'd still be preoparing emulsions on
site with cameras that took two men and a boy to carry and required
exposures so long that the movement of rocks was an issue.

Is it "essential"?  In the sense that one will die if one lacks it, no
it is not "essential"--neither is a camera for that matter unless it is
your means of livelhood.  Does it make life a whole lot easier sometimes?
Yes, it does.

> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

Methinks thou doth protest too much.

Signature

--John

to email, dial "usenet" and validate

(was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)

Justin C - 08 Jan 2007 01:05 GMT
> I wrote, some time back.

> > I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.
>
> Methinks thou doth protest too much.

I really wasn't! And I didn't - at least not on the subject I posted,
that whole "mirror lockup" thing was nothing to do with me!

Thank you to all who posted regarding this. I'm definitely wiser. Thank
you to those who gave some technical details, those are always
interesting when I'm able to understand or get the gist of them.

I shall read up some more on the subject.

My original reaction to the idea of IS/VR (what does VR stand for BTW?)
was that the likes of Canon and Nikon were just trying to find a way of
compensating for cheaper, slower lenses. The margin may be good on a
fast prime however there aren't going to be many people buy one because
they're too expensive. On the other hand, make an F4/5.6 (or slower)
zoom and fit a cheap gimmick and the world will beat a path to your
door.... mind you, make that 400mm F2 lens with IS and maybe that's a
"must have" for an awful lot of people.

It's been interesting reading. Please carry on!

Signature

Justin C, by the sea.

acl - 08 Jan 2007 01:27 GMT
> > I wrote, some time back.
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I really wasn't! And I didn't - at least not on the subject I posted,
> that whole "mirror lockup" thing was nothing to do with me!

LOL! Nobody accused you of that! And the worst part is, at least three
of the others taking part in that fine "discussion" are usually
reasonably serious people (I exclude myself from this group of course
:). But what do you expect? Sometimes, usenet reveals more about people
than they intended to, I think. Usually, what is thus revealed is quite
amusing :)
David J Taylor - 08 Jan 2007 09:08 GMT
[]
> My original reaction to the idea of IS/VR (what does VR stand for
> BTW?) was that the likes of Canon and Nikon were just trying to find
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> It's been interesting reading. Please carry on!

VR - vibration reduction

AS - anti-shake

IS/VR/AS is certainly not a gimmick, but a function which allows you to
hand hold at longer exposures than you otherwise could, perhaps therefore
allowing you to use a lower ISO and hence produce images with less noise
(grain).

I have been delighted with the in-camera, lens-based IS I have on my own
Panasonic FZ5.

Cheers,
David
Skip - 08 Jan 2007 13:22 GMT
<snipped>
> My original reaction to the idea of IS/VR (what does VR stand for BTW?)
> was that the likes of Canon and Nikon were just trying to find a way of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> door.... mind you, make that 400mm F2 lens with IS and maybe that's a
> "must have" for an awful lot of people.

Canon makes a 400mmf2.8 with IS, also a 500mm and 600mm f4 with IS.  Not to
mention a 70-200 f2.8 IS lens, definitely not a "cheap, slow zoom."
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David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 04:51 GMT
> <snipped>
>> My original reaction to the idea of IS/VR (what does VR stand for BTW?)
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Canon makes a 400mmf2.8 with IS, also a 500mm and 600mm f4 with IS.  Not to
> mention a 70-200 f2.8 IS lens, definitely not a "cheap, slow zoom."

Yes, some of the IS/VR lenses are clearly top-line.  Nikon has...pretty
much the same things there.  With the possible exception of the 70-200,
I simply can't afford glass like that.  Luckily I'm not doing sports or
wildlife, so I also don't *need* the super-telephotos.

On the other hand, there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the 24-120
f/3.5-5.6.
M-M - 14 Jan 2007 12:39 GMT
>  there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
> side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the 24-120
> f/3.5-5.6.

But the VR gives you a few stops advantage in certain situations so a
slow VR can *sometimes* (I would even say, *often*) function like a
faster non VR.

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m-m

David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 16:31 GMT
>>  there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
>> side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the 24-120
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> slow VR can *sometimes* (I would even say, *often*) function like a
> faster non VR.

But I already own f/2.8 or faster lenses through all those ranges, so a
slower VR lens doesn't provide any benefit *to me*.
Mark² - 14 Jan 2007 20:08 GMT
>>>  there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
>>> side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the 24-120
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> But I already own f/2.8 or faster lenses through all those ranges, so
> a slower VR lens doesn't provide any benefit *to me*.

You're forgetting that you'll have to use a large aperture though...meaning
you're limited with DOF issues.  If you want to maintain DOF *and* stop
camera-shake blur, you've got fewer choices.  One of the benefits people
tend to overlook with IS/VR is the ability to use smaller apertures, yet
still hand-hold.  This can be a huge benefit shooting indoors without flash.

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David Dyer-Bennet - 14 Jan 2007 20:21 GMT
>>>>  there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
>>>> side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the 24-120
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> tend to overlook with IS/VR is the ability to use smaller apertures, yet
> still hand-hold.  This can be a huge benefit shooting indoors without flash.

Nice in theory, irrelevant to me in practice.  I tend to be shooting at
f/2, ISO 1600, and shutter speeds in the 1/15 - 1/4 range, mostly
limited by subject motion.  Sometimes f/1.2, if I'm using the 58mm.  At
least for the difficult shots; for the easy ones what I have works fine.
 (In brighter rooms I can sometimes use the zooms, at f/2.8, but in
dark conditions I find I'm mostly shooting with old AIS lenses, 24mm
f/2, 58mm f/1.2, and 135mm f/2).

More depth of field would be nice, but it's not available by anything
except higher ISO.
Mark² - 14 Jan 2007 20:34 GMT
>>>>>  there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
>>>>> side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Nice in theory, irrelevant to me in practice.

OK.  Irrelevant...to YOU.
Most people shooting interiors don't want paper-thin DOF.
But to each their own.  :)

>I tend to be shooting
> at f/2, ISO 1600, and shutter speeds in the 1/15 - 1/4 range, mostly
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> More depth of field would be nice, but it's not available by anything
> except higher ISO.

Or IS/VR.  :)

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David Dyer-Bennet - 15 Jan 2007 00:47 GMT
>>>>>>  there's also a lot of slow VR/IS lenses -- on Nikon's
>>>>>> side, the 18-200mm VR is f/3.5-5.6, the 70-300 f/4.5-5.6, the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>>> a huge benefit shooting indoors without flash.
>> Nice in theory, irrelevant to me in practice.

> OK.  Irrelevant...to YOU.
> Most people shooting interiors don't want paper-thin DOF.
> But to each their own.  :)

I'm shooting people, not interiors.

>> I tend to be shooting
>> at f/2, ISO 1600, and shutter speeds in the 1/15 - 1/4 range, mostly
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Or IS/VR.  :)

How does IS/VR help in the situation I have described?  I can't use a
slower shutter speed because of issues with subject motion.
M-M - 15 Jan 2007 01:21 GMT
> How does IS/VR help in the situation I have described?  I can't use a
> slower shutter speed because of issues with subject motion.

Obviously you are correct- VR will not help subject motion. All it will
do is enable a slower shutter speed which is of no use in certain
situations.

Of course if the subject is still you can increase DOF by increasing
shutter speed.

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m-m

M-M - 14 Jan 2007 22:32 GMT
> > But the VR gives you a few stops advantage in certain situations so a
> > slow VR can *sometimes* (I would even say, *often*) function like a
> > faster non VR.
>
> But I already own f/2.8 or faster lenses through all those ranges, so a
> slower VR lens doesn't provide any benefit *to me*.

How about the size?

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m-m

dtong22 - 19 Jan 2007 03:13 GMT
> > I wrote, some time back.
>
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>
> My original reaction to the idea of IS/VR (what does VR stand for BTW?)

VR is Nikon term for I S.

> was that the likes of Canon and Nikon were just trying to find a way of
> compensating for cheaper, slower lenses. The margin may be good on a
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> --
> Justin C, by the sea.

I am one of the few  people in here with Pentax dslr . S R (Sony &
Pentax terms) works to give me about 1 1/2 to 2 stops of advantages.
That helps or sometimes saves the day in  low light situation.

Daniel, Toronto
(gears include dslr DL & K100D with the lenses : Zenitar 16mm 2.8,
FA28mm 2.8, FA50mm 1.4, FA100mm 2.8 Macro, FA135mm 2.8 , A* 300mm F/4,
280T& AF360 Flash , Manfrotto 680B Monopod & 234RC head. )
www.pbase.com/danieltong
David Dyer-Bennet - 19 Jan 2007 04:07 GMT
>> My original reaction to the idea of IS/VR (what does VR stand for BTW?)
>
> VR is Nikon term for I S.

That is true.  But it *does* actually stand for something -- VR stands
for "Vibration Reduction".
Dave Cohen - 06 Jan 2007 16:41 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
> I'm not looking to start a flame war and this is not a troll.

Well, you could have fooled me.
Dave Cohen
David Dyer-Bennet - 06 Jan 2007 16:50 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

Sure they were -- it's a recent technology, and fine photos have been
building up for years.

You can say the same thing about fast lenses (who really *needs* a 400
f/2.8? Can't you just use faster film?), long lenses (what's the point
of a 600mm lens?  Why not just get closer?), fast films (just use ASA
100 and expose longer; and you'll get finer grain to boot!), and so forth.

IS gives you more options in some situations.  Hand-holding with IS is
easier to make quick adjustments to than solid mounting on a tripod, so
you can adapt to subject movement and and get photos that you'd mostly
miss using solider mounting techniques.

Whether it would result in significantly better pictures for your
particular work, I can't say at least twice; I don't know your work, and
*I've* never owned an IS lens either.
Irwin Peckinloomer - 07 Jan 2007 02:04 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
>
> I keep reading about IS in modern cameras and lenses and people seem to
> go on about it as if it's essential. It's not in any camera I have and
> it was never in any camera I've ever had.

<snip>

> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

Got along fine without digital until a few years ago .... Weren't all
the good photos shot on film? Got along without 35mm 50 years ago.

Now that I really think back, weren't all the best photos shot on glass
plates 100 years ago?
Steve Cutchen - 07 Jan 2007 06:57 GMT
> > (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> > intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Now that I really think back, weren't all the best photos shot on glass
> plates 100 years ago?

Paint says "hi!"
Justin C - 08 Jan 2007 00:39 GMT
> > > (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> > > intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Paint says "hi!"

LOL.

I realise now that *that* line was completely stupid. Thanks to all the
folks who *haven't* pointed it out :)

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Justin C, by the sea.

Mark² - 08 Jan 2007 02:23 GMT
>>> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both
>>> NGs, I intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Paint says "hi!"

We don't need no stinking paint...
...Rock...chisel...and another rock will do.

For that matter...just gimme a burnt stick and a cave and it's all good...
:)

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sgtdisturbed - 07 Jan 2007 20:20 GMT
> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> --
> Justin C, by the sea.

Well, with IS you won't need a tripod as often as you would without IS.
Carrying ca camera, lenses, and batteries can be heavy enough, throw in
a 15-20 Lb tripod and the load can be a bit too much, especially on a
hike out to the woods to take nature shots where you already have a
30-50 Lb ruck (if you wish to bivouac). Lightening the load without
leaving behind essentials can be tricky, so introducing IS will allow
you to leave behind the tripod.

Newer IS lenses (or VR) make long exposure shots come out nicely
without a tripod, and taking shots from within a moving vehicle are
possible without having to pull over to take pictures, and serious zoom
shots come out clearer without using the tripod.

Sounds IS itself is almost an essential part of photography, making
certain shots easier.
Mark² - 07 Jan 2007 21:42 GMT
>> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both
>> NGs, I intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Sounds IS itself is almost an essential part of photography, making
> certain shots easier.

While it's true that IS helps...I still carry my tripod any time I'm
shooting seriously...unless I'm shooting wildlife where it isn't feasible.
Many circumstances need a tripod no matter what...like long exposures, or
landscapes with tiny apertures, etc.  I'm a big IS fan, but it's no tripod
replacement...

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J. Clarke - 08 Jan 2007 00:30 GMT
>> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
>> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Carrying ca camera, lenses, and batteries can be heavy enough, throw in
> a 15-20 Lb tripod

Uh, my tripod weighs 4 pounds.  It's not the lightest on the market.  It's
also not lacking in stiffness for any camera I own, although it _is_
lacking in cheapness.

> and the load can be a bit too much, especially on a
> hike out to the woods to take nature shots where you already have a
> 30-50 Lb ruck (if you wish to bivouac).

Poor, poor pitiful you.  I used to carry 80 for the exercise.  If you can't
carry half your body weight you're not in very good shape.  The military
routinely schleps a hundred pounds or more.

> Lightening the load without
> leaving behind essentials can be tricky, so introducing IS will allow
> you to leave behind the tripod.

Maybe.

> Newer IS lenses (or VR) make long exposure shots

Not any that I would consider to be "long exposure".  They let you go a
couple or three stops slower, not 30 seconds.

> come out nicely without
> a tripod, and taking shots from within a moving vehicle are possible
> without having to pull over to take pictures, and serious zoom shots
> come out clearer without using the tripod.

I've never had any trouble taking pictures from a moving vehicle without
image stabilization.

> Sounds IS itself is almost an essential part of photography, making
> certain shots easier.

It's useful, it makes certain shots easier, but it's not a panacea.

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Ron Hunter - 08 Jan 2007 09:17 GMT
>>> (Also posted to uk.rec.photo.misc, sorry to those who follow both NGs, I
>>> intended to post it here but had the wrong NG selected when I posted).
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> carry half your body weight you're not in very good shape.  The military
> routinely schleps a hundred pounds or more.

Humm.  Not too many of those military types are 64 years old, either.  Grin.
And some of us aren't quite as well off, physically, as we used to be.
I am happy that I can still carry the 50lb. bags of cat litter into the
house, but I do that ONLY if my neighbor isn't available to do it for me.
I am, like Arnold Palmer, 'taking care of the old equipment'.

>> Lightening the load without
>> leaving behind essentials can be tricky, so introducing IS will allow
>> you to leave behind the tripod.
>
> Maybe.

Hardly replaces the tripod.  Sometimes the tripod is handy for a place
to put the camera, more than for just being a stable platform.  That
said, I have never owned one.  Doesn't match with my type of photography.

>> Newer IS lenses (or VR) make long exposure shots
>
> Not any that I would consider to be "long exposure".  They let you go a
> couple or three stops slower, not 30 seconds.

I am not sure just how effective the current crop of IS lenses (bodies)
might be on long exposures.  Perhaps there is some information about
long exposures...

>> come out nicely without
>> a tripod, and taking shots from within a moving vehicle are possible
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I've never had any trouble taking pictures from a moving vehicle without
> image stabilization.

I have, but only on bad roads.

>> Sounds IS itself is almost an essential part of photography, making
>> certain shots easier.
>
> It's useful, it makes certain shots easier, but it's not a panacea.

I quite agree with your summary.  I have never owned a camera/lens with
IS, but can see how it might be useful, especially in these days where
the dominant picture-taking posture seems to be with the camera held at
arm's length in front of the photographer.  sigh.
Annika1980 - 08 Jan 2007 02:31 GMT
>> Just what is the big deal with IS? Have I missed the point? Weren't most
> of the best photo's in the world shot without it?

The question you should be asking is, "How many potentially great
photos were ruined by not having IS?"  I'll bet you've taken a few of
them yourself.
 
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