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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / November 2005

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TIFF OR JPEG

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stevenjon1 - 23 Nov 2005 07:57 GMT
I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
10mins to 1 hour work before printing to a standard that I would be happy
with. Theoretcially they should be saved in a lossless format like TIFF but
that needs a lot more storage space than I have or can afford.   Saving them
on cd's at high resolution means having an awful lot of cd's.
Can someone give me an idea of just how much the image of a jpeg suffers if
its opened, cropped, smudges removed, levels altered then sharpened before
closing? Is it something that would be noticed on a monitor, a 6"*8" print,
a photo publised in a guide book? None of my photos are ever going to be
enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
Thanks for any comments.
Pete D - 23 Nov 2005 09:01 GMT
Don't use CD's use DVD's, cheap and hold lots more data.

By the sound of it as long as you save in the highest quality jpg it will
work okay, of course you should do a few tests to see if the result is
acceptable. Remember a 400Gb drive is only $150.

>I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
>shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> going to be enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.
Captain Blammo - 23 Nov 2005 13:07 GMT
I am still shocked by the quality losses with even the gentlest JPEG
compression. You can save a lot of space by applying lossless compression to
your TIFF file (either through photoshop or just using a file compression
utility). I just popped an image out of my camera and tried photoshop's TIFF
compression when saving. It pared a 20.2MB TIFF file down to 9MB, which all
things said and done isn't that much bigger than the 3.8MB JPEG option on a
quality settings of 12.

If you had 4000 9MB compressed TIFF files, that's only 36GB; which is eight
4.7Gb DVD-Rs. That would have been 80GB and 18 DVD-Rs with no compression.

Making 3.8MB JPEG files of them would only get you down to 15.2GB, which is
still 4 DVD-Rs, and you take a huge hit in quality that you can never get
back. I'd stick with TIFF. Even if you can't notice the difference in
quality, it's entirely possible that you will later and end up kicking
yourself. The additional 4 DVD-Rs will cost you about $4. That seems like a
pretty reasonable investment!

CB

> Don't use CD's use DVD's, cheap and hold lots more data.
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> > going to be enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> > Thanks for any comments.
Dirty Harry - 23 Nov 2005 21:42 GMT
> I am still shocked by the quality losses with even the gentlest JPEG
> compression. You can save a lot of space by applying lossless compression to
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> > > going to be enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> > > Thanks for any comments.

Does Photoshop compress tiffs by default??  I only get compression options
for the layers.
Captain Blammo - 23 Nov 2005 23:53 GMT
> Does Photoshop compress tiffs by default??  I only get compression options
> for the layers.

I only saved a single layer, and when I chose "TIFF" as the file type and
pressed save, the resulting dialog had an "Image compression" section that
let you chose none. LZW, ZIP or JPEG. It was set to "none" by default.

I'm using PS 7.0

CB
Dirty Harry - 24 Nov 2005 04:54 GMT
> > Does Photoshop compress tiffs by default??  I only get compression options
> > for the layers.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> CB

Thanks I guess i just needed to open my eyes.  I'm thinking  of batch
processing all of my tiffs to compressed tiffs, i imagine I'd have 10 gigs
of free space extra.
Martin Brown - 24 Nov 2005 14:35 GMT
> I am still shocked by the quality losses with even the gentlest JPEG
> compression.

Bullshit. The difference between a first generation JPEG compressed
photographic image at its highest quality and the original cannot
normally be seen by the human eye. You need to demonstrate one of these
"shocking" quality losses if you wish to retain any credibilty.

Multiple load and save of JPEGs has an additional price but the initial
losses are miniscule for all but the most pathological test cases.

The only situations where it is really possible to see JPEG artefacts at
highest quality are when line artwork is compressed. And even then with
careful choice of the quantisation table it is possible to do a lot
better than most people would imagine.

Regards,
Martin Brown
netkiller - 25 Nov 2005 01:50 GMT
don't used TIFF.pls used Raw.
Captain Blammo - 25 Nov 2005 08:06 GMT
> You need to demonstrate one of these
> "shocking" quality losses if you wish to retain any credibilty.

To be fair, I never had any credibility to retain. I'm just some random
bloke off the internet :-)

> The only situations where it is really possible to see JPEG artefacts at
> highest quality are when line artwork is compressed. And even then with
> careful choice of the quantisation table it is possible to do a lot
> better than most people would imagine.

That would actually explain a lot, the nasty effects I saw were on
graphics tablet drawings. The lines became dull and unsharp. That said, I
also noticed that some subtle tonal transitions get quite butchered (made
using large brushes set to a low flow rate). It's not that it makes them
look *bad* as such, but it *does* make them look rather different.

I tried a few tests on some photos, and I indeed couldn't see the difference
at all, not a pixel's worth of it. Of course, I assume that there are
certain types of image that will exhibit the nasty changes I saw in the
drawings, if the content is right? That possibility alone is enough to keep
me off the JPEGs now that I've seen how bad they can get.

Well, thanks for setting me straight on the conditions for a nasty
compression! Er, how does one choose a quantisation table?

CB
Martin Brown - 28 Nov 2005 09:32 GMT
>>You need to demonstrate one of these
>>"shocking" quality losses if you wish to retain any credibilty.
>
> To be fair, I never had any credibility to retain. I'm just some random
> bloke off the internet :-)

Fair enough. Too many people blame JPEG unfairly for lots of things...

>>The only situations where it is really possible to see JPEG artefacts at
>>highest quality are when line artwork is compressed. And even then with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> using large brushes set to a low flow rate). It's not that it makes them
> look *bad* as such, but it *does* make them look rather different.

I am a bit surprised that PhotoShop level 12 has failed on them. I would
genuinely like to see a small example of these data. An small example of
line art and the damage JPEG with/without chroma subsampling is at:

    http://www.nezumi.demon.co.uk/photo/jpeg/2/jpeg2.htm

> I tried a few tests on some photos, and I indeed couldn't see the difference
> at all, not a pixel's worth of it. Of course, I assume that there are
> certain types of image that will exhibit the nasty changes I saw in the
> drawings, if the content is right? That possibility alone is enough to keep
> me off the JPEGs now that I've seen how bad they can get.

The only types of image where serious damage will result belong to the
large hyper space of pseudo random pathological noise like images. I
have a few examples designed to break JPEG, but you will never ever
photograph a target that looks even remotely like one.

> Well, thanks for setting me straight on the conditions for a nasty
> compression! Er, how does one choose a quantisation table?

Wizard mode on the IJG codec. A few of the most recent cameras are
actually using all 1's in their JPEG quantisation table (eg Pentax
istDS). I think this is overkill.

Regards,
Martin Brown
Captain Blammo - 30 Nov 2005 14:42 GMT
> I would  genuinely like to see a small example of these data.
> An small example of  line art and the damage JPEG with/without
> chroma subsampling is at:

No probs, I'll post it in a couple of days when I can dig out the files and
find 5 minutes free. Stay tuned :-)

CB
Ron Hunter - 23 Nov 2005 09:44 GMT
> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.

DON'T!
Scan to .TIFF, then edit, THEN save to .jpg.  Do it in batches, then, if
you must, delete the .TIFF files.  It is probably cheaper to get a
really large external disk drive than to mess with all those CD/DVD backups.

Signature

Ron Hunter  rphunter@charter.net

Ian Tindale - 23 Nov 2005 10:41 GMT
Back them up onto cassette.
traction - 23 Nov 2005 10:54 GMT
>I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
>shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> going to be enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.

How many do you expect to use in this book?
Why scan them all at this standard, when perhaps 1% will ever be used.
Scan them all at a nominal 300DPI at 6x8, view them , decide which you want
, and spend your time scanning the quality ones.
Been there, seen it, done it, and now I have shoeboxes full of CD's that
never even get opened.!!
Martin Brown - 23 Nov 2005 12:33 GMT
> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
> 10mins to 1 hour work before printing to a standard that I would be happy
> with. Theoretcially they should be saved in a lossless format like TIFF but
> that needs a lot more storage space than I have or can afford.   Saving them
> on cd's at high resolution means having an awful lot of cd's.

Keep work in progress as TIFF files and save the final result as high
quality JPEGs. Any that are really good keep the TIFF as well.

> Can someone give me an idea of just how much the image of a jpeg suffers if
> its opened, cropped, smudges removed, levels altered then sharpened before
> closing? Is it something that would be noticed on a monitor, a 6"*8" print,
> a photo publised in a guide book? None of my photos are ever going to be
> enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.

Unless you know exactly what to look for and there is suitable detail in
the target photographic image the difference between a first generation
JPEG and the original is beyond the ability of the human eye to
distinguish. Line artwork and pathological patterns can be constructed
that will give JPEG a headache but even then the losses are small.

Regards,
Martin Brown
Steven Feinstein - 23 Nov 2005 14:50 GMT
> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> going to be enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.

You will see a lot of advice on the "best" way to do this.  But, there is
always a cost/benefit to doing anything and you need to decide if the extra
cost of the file size is worth the difference in image quality (as an
example, people will look for lower cost gas to save money, but will they
drive 55 instead of 65 to get better mileage?  Cost vs benefit).

I've done some tests on my own images.  There is obviously a difference
between JPG and TIFF (otherwise why would everyone recommend TIFF).  The
question is, is there enough of a difference.  For my own images, I decided
no.  I'd rather save the space.  In my opinion, you will have a difficult
time noticing the differences between a TIFF and a 2nd generation JPG
printed at 6x8.  Is there a difference, sure.  Side by side you will say
the TIFF looks better.  But as you said, these are for a guide book not for
hanging on a wall.  Will you be happy with the JPG version?  I'm guessing
yes, but only you can tell.

So, my recommendation is, scan a negative twice, saving one as TIFF the
other as JPG.  Make the same change to both.  Save the TIFF as TIFF and the
JPG as JPG again.  Then print both final images 6x8.  See if you care about
the difference.

When you decide what you want to do, I recommend while working on the image
to save in the format of your image software until you are done making
changes.  The one hour changes may take a couple of sessions.

BTW, another option would be to scan at TIFF and convert to PNG (or scan to
PNG if your scanning software allows it).  PNGs are about 1/3rd the size of
TIFFs.  Downside is less software supports PNG and they are much slower to
open and close.

Steve
David Dyer-Bennet - 23 Nov 2005 16:30 GMT
> BTW, another option would be to scan at TIFF and convert to PNG (or scan to
> PNG if your scanning software allows it).  PNGs are about 1/3rd the size of
> TIFFs.  Downside is less software supports PNG and they are much slower to
> open and close.

Um, with what options?  Yeah, if you reduce to an 8-bit palletted PNG,
then it'll be about 1/3 the size of the TIFF.  But a 24-bit PNG isn't
notably smaller than a 24-bit TIFF that I've noticed (using the same
compression options in each).
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
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Steven Feinstein - 23 Nov 2005 18:00 GMT
>> BTW, another option would be to scan at TIFF and convert to PNG (or scan
>> to
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> notably smaller than a 24-bit TIFF that I've noticed (using the same
> compression options in each).

I was talking about 8-bit.  I don't think 24-bit is necessary for photos
destined to be printed 6x8.

Steve
David Dyer-Bennet - 23 Nov 2005 18:12 GMT
> >> BTW, another option would be to scan at TIFF and convert to PNG (or scan
> >> to
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> I was talking about 8-bit.  I don't think 24-bit is necessary for photos
> destined to be printed 6x8.

Well, 8-bit is thoroughly inadequate for screen display; so I haven't
tried printing it.
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
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Steven Feinstein - 23 Nov 2005 18:31 GMT
>> >> BTW, another option would be to scan at TIFF and convert to PNG (or
>> >> scan to
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Well, 8-bit is thoroughly inadequate for screen display; so I haven't
> tried printing it.

Sorry, I totally mis-read your post (that's what I get for being in a
hurry).  I was thinking 8-bit vs 16-bit scanning not pallette.  I agree
8-bit pallette is not suitable.  I got smaller PNGs when I compressed mine,
but then I don't use compressed TIFFs that often since I have not found
support for compressed TIFFs to be consistent across applications.  Some do
and some don't.

Steve
David Dyer-Bennet - 23 Nov 2005 20:46 GMT
> >> >> BTW, another option would be to scan at TIFF and convert to PNG (or
> >> >> scan to
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> support for compressed TIFFs to be consistent across applications.  Some do
> and some don't.

I've had the same experience with compressed TIFFs.  But my current
set of primary tools all handle them, so I'm using them more at the
moment.  I'm guessing support will only increase over time.

Anyway, the confusion and mystery appears to be cleared up, thanks!
Signature

David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
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Scott W - 23 Nov 2005 18:37 GMT
> Well, 8-bit is thoroughly inadequate for screen display; so I
haven't
> tried printing it.
> --

That is a bit odd, that 8-bit is "thoroughly inadequate for screen
display"

Can you tell buy just looking at this photo which side is 8 bits and
which side is 16?
http://www.sewcon.com/temp/half_and_half.psd

I know it is easy to tell by looking at the histograms, but do you
claim to be able to tell by just looking which side is which?

Scott
David Dyer-Bennet - 23 Nov 2005 20:51 GMT
>  > Well, 8-bit is thoroughly inadequate for screen display; so I
> haven't
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> That is a bit odd, that 8-bit is "thoroughly inadequate for screen
> display"

Not 8-bits-per-channel; 8-bit palletted, i.e. 256 colors total.

> Can you tell buy just looking at this photo which side is 8 bits and
> which side is 16?
> http://www.sewcon.com/temp/half_and_half.psd

Probably not, especially if it wasn't an extreme adjustment from the
original...downlowding...starting photoshop...........nope, I can't.
Signature

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Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>

Scott W - 23 Nov 2005 20:58 GMT
> >  > Well, 8-bit is thoroughly inadequate for screen display; so I
> > haven't
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Not 8-bits-per-channel; 8-bit palletted, i.e. 256 colors total.

Or sorry, your right 8 bit palletted is not normally enough.

Scott
David Dyer-Bennet - 23 Nov 2005 16:25 GMT
> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
> 10mins to 1 hour work before printing to a standard that I would be happy
> with. Theoretcially they should be saved in a lossless format like TIFF but
> that needs a lot more storage space than I have or can afford.   Saving them
> on cd's at high resolution means having an awful lot of cd's.

This is why they invented DVDs :-).  The latest 16x drives (or have
they gone up another level in the week since I last looked?) can be
had *amazingly* cheaply -- like under $50 for a quality internal
drive.

I do recommend having multiple optical media copies, ideally on
different brands of media, before you even *think* of relying on them
as your only copy of anything important.

Your time estimates look spot on to me.  If you're seriously thinking
of spending that much *time*, I'd suggest you work *very* hard to find
the money to avoid making other compromises.  The time is generally
the most expensive part of this sort of project.  

> Can someone give me an idea of just how much the image of a jpeg
> suffers if its opened, cropped, smudges removed, levels altered then
> sharpened before closing? Is it something that would be noticed on a
> monitor, a 6"*8" print, a photo publised in a guide book? None of my
> photos are ever going to be enlarged much more tha 6*8" and
> exhibited as 'art'.  Thanks for any comments.

It varies tremendously based on the compression level chosen.  At
Photoshop jpeg levels of 4 and below, you can often see very obvious
posterization in areas of even tone, especially background areas.  At
levels up to 7 you can often see differences when you click preview on
and off, but they're quite minor, around the edges of things.  

At Photoshop level 10, you're not likely to notice anything, and that
still compresses fairly effectively.

(The levels I cite are rough impressions; I'm not claiming there are
"magical changes" as you move the jpeg level through those values,
just trying to give a rough impression of the kinds of things you'll
see in various ranges.)

It's easy, of course, to grab a relatively small number of pictures
and play around with the jpeg levels, then load them up and look at
them and really see for yourself.  I do find that the Photoshop
preview often looks much better than that same photo does when I view
it on the web later.  I can't tell if this is a failure in preview, or
if photoshop simply does a better job of displaying pictures on the
screen.  But it's worth using other viewers to check your results, in
my experience.

Given the range of uses you talk about, sharpening before saving isn't
a good idea, by the way; because those uses will have rather different
optimum sharpening parameters most likely.
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Scott W - 23 Nov 2005 18:03 GMT
> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.
First off let me say that there is no big problem with saving the scans
as tiffs.  Having said that in reading some of the post here one would
think that jpg is no capable of storing anything close to a excellent
photo, this is simply not true.  I this photo below I started with a
raw file from a 20D and converted it to a 16 bit / color psd format
using photoshop elements.  I then took this file and converted it to 8
bits and saved as a jpg at quality setting 12 (again in PSE).  I then
copied half the jpg image on top of the 16 bit psd photo.

http://www.sewcon.com/temp/half_and_half.psd

Now anybody who is any good at photoshop at all can tell in a minute
which side is which by checking the color depth.  But can you do any
kind of edit to the photo that will made the difference show up, at
least any kind of an edit that you would ever really do to a photo?

For anyone who cares here are the jpg version and psd versions of the
photo
http://www.sewcon.com/temp/jpg.jpg
http://www.sewcon.com/temp/clean.psd

I should note that no all software will allow saving to a very low
level of compression and I should also point out that scans of film
don't compress well as jpgs because of the noise in them from grain
(or dye clouds if you prefer).  But this means that you will end up
with a pretty large jpg, not that you will end up with a poor jpg, that
is if the software that is saving as a jpg is doing its job right.
Captain Blammo - 25 Nov 2005 08:06 GMT
> http://www.sewcon.com/temp/half_and_half.psd

Ok, I can hardly see any difference at all, but I'm going to guess the left
is the JPEG, because the tonal transition from the centre of the clouds to
the edge looks *ever* so slightly harsher than on the right. Did I get it
right?

By the way, how do you check colour depth in PS7? I used the dropper and the
histograms, but they both give the same ranges of values. Is that because it
can't handle 16-bit files? I assume it just converted it all to 8-bit for
viewing.

CB
Scott W - 25 Nov 2005 11:30 GMT
> > http://www.sewcon.com/temp/half_and_half.psd
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> CB

Checking color depth is easy, select an area and using level set the
high end of the input level to something like 64. Now look at the
histogram, if it was 16 bits deep the histogram will still be smooth,
if it as 8 bit deep you will see a bunch of lines in the histogram.

It is the left side that is 8 bits deep, but when I compare the 8 bit
version to the 16, flashing between them, I can't see any differance,
here is the full frame at 16 bits, see if the image looks any different
to you when you can look at the same area in both 16 and 8.
http://www.sewcon.com/temp/clean.psd

Here is the whole image as a jpg
http://www.sewcon.com/temp/jpg.jpg

Scott
Arnold - 23 Nov 2005 18:56 GMT
If you are going to spend all that time, I would save in the best possible
format possible.  Hard drive space is relatively cheap, the worst part is
the time involved in scanning.

> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.
tomm101 - 23 Nov 2005 21:26 GMT
> I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> enlarged much more tha 6*8" and exhibited as 'art'.
> Thanks for any comments.

If you are printing a book, the publisher is going to want final size x
300dpi (ppi in the photoworld) in uncompressed tif format. Scanning is
a big time grabber, you would do best by editting the images first,
triage the edit, book 1st (especially if you are still selling your
idea to publishers), stuff you still like 2nd, the rest third. Scan in
packs if "the rest" don't get scanned fine. You can keep the slides
anyway.
Scan the ones for the book twice to size in the book layout and at 8x10
@ 300dpi. Why 8x10, it is what publishers want to see. It is a big
file, about 30mb, but worth doing if you want to go in the publishing
direction. Also save everything in uncompressed tifs, printers have an
unrational fear of anything else, even compressed tifs. The last book I
worked on, about two years ago, I was told by the printer that lzw
compressed tifs screwed up the image. Printers are a tough bunch, but
when your work depends on them, you do what they say. They can make you
look very bad if they don't like you.
To catalogue your files set up a simple database for each of your CDs.
If you want something more visual use Extensis Portfolio.  

Tom
Charlie Self - 24 Nov 2005 00:29 GMT
> > I have to scan several thousand old 35mm negs. 90% of them are in good
> > shape, the rest are a bit faded or otherwise damaged. All of them would need
> > 10mins to 1 hour work before printing to a standard that I would be happy
> > with. Theoretcially they should be saved in a lossless format like TIFF but
> > that needs a lot more storage space than I have or can afford.   Saving them
> > on cd's at high resolution means having an awful lot of cd's.
Also save everything in uncompressed tifs, printers have an
> unrational fear of anything else, even compressed tifs. The last book I
> worked on, about two years ago, I was told by the printer that lzw
> compressed tifs screwed up the image. Printers are a tough bunch, but
> when your work depends on them, you do what they say. They can make you
> look very bad if they don't like you.

Not arguing here, as I don't know, but did any printer ever tell you
HOW a compressed--LZW--TIFF screwed up a file?

I hadn't bothered, but just tried today to save a TIFF into LZW
compressed TIFF: 17.3 MBs down to 7.2 MBs. If that is effective all the
way, when coming back to uncompressed, it is less than twice the size
of the JPEGs put out by my Pentax *istD, and only 40% or so the size of
the original TIFF. I've got a spare 160 gig hard drive for photos, so I
can figure on getting an awful lot of LZE TIFFs on it at those sizes,
probably more than I'll ever need, though you never know. I can recall
when I thought a 32 MB hard drive was the ultimate, and now I've got a
few dozen or hundred files that large.

Whoops. My wife's new computer came. Time to set that up.
tomm101 - 24 Nov 2005 13:35 GMT
> Not arguing here, as I don't know, but did any printer ever tell you
> HOW a compressed--LZW--TIFF screwed up a file?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Whoops. My wife's new computer came. Time to set that up.

Well the printers I have dealt with have always been crusty guys who
did everything the same for their first 20 years in the business, then
they were dragged kicking and screaming into the digital age. Now they
have a way of doing things that works for them and again they don't
want to change, if all the only thing they impose on you is
uncompressed tifs, not a big deal. One printer said lzw tif damage the
image, I say that is not what I here, then they ask to show them the
evidence right there, and if you want them to do your job you get the
feeling, just shut up and agree.
The reason maybe that 10 years ago RIPs and typesetters didn't accept
lzw tif, some still don't. The first version of a RIP I had for a wide
printer I bought 5 years ago didn't accept lzw compression. There first
upgrade changed that.
I think 10-25% reduction with lzw compression, sometimes you get the
results you did but not very often.

Tom
Charles Self - 25 Nov 2005 00:50 GMT
>> Not arguing here, as I don't know, but did any printer ever tell you
>> HOW a compressed--LZW--TIFF screwed up a file?
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> I think 10-25% reduction with lzw compression, sometimes you get the
> results you did but not very often.

OK. But I just tried another file, same size to start 17.3 MBs, and the
resulting LZW TIFF was 7.69 MBs.

Years ago, I had to work with printers, not too long after the change to
offset from hot type. It was barely long enough for a few newspapers to go
broke because they set in cold type for offset, but had to pay linotypers to
set the same material in hot type, which was then discarded. They were, I
guess, a lot like the railroad firemen who kept their jobs even though
diesel was the new fuel and there was no need to shovel coal and tend the
fires.
 
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