Photo Forum / Digital Photography / Digital Photo / February 2005
Why are DSLRs faster?
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Charlie - 26 Feb 2005 18:21 GMT One of the reasons I bought my D70 nwas because of the lack of "shutter lag" and the very rapid response after turning the beast on.
I've been enjoying those features and many others.
A recent comparitive review of 8 MP cameras in the New York Times Circuits page included one DSLR, and the article described it as having a faster response time than the non-interchangeable lens SLR-style cameras.
Is there something intrinsic to the basic design of DSLR cameras that enable their more responsive behavior, or is just that these features were given priority by the designers?
Brian C. Baird - 26 Feb 2005 18:26 GMT > A recent comparitive review of 8 MP cameras in the New York Times > Circuits page included one DSLR, and the article described it as having [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > enable their more responsive behavior, or is just that these features > were given priority by the designers? Well, film SLRs have always had better AF and a shutter response. This is because the market demanded it. When DSLRs came along, the same response was expected, so that's why you have it.
In all fairness, a lot of the film point and shoots are really slow to focus/respond. So it's more a matter of market segment than anything else.
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bwoag - 26 Feb 2005 18:26 GMT No: many P&S cameras have fast response now. Yes.
Bill Tuthill - 28 Feb 2005 20:19 GMT > No: many P&S cameras have fast response now. > Yes. Which ones? Prove it.
Even the Ricoh models with excellent power-on and half-press response slow down after the initial two frames. IIRC, 7 seconds are required between the second and third etc. frames.
Ron Recer - 28 Feb 2005 22:14 GMT > > No: many P&S cameras have fast response now. > > Yes. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > slow down after the initial two frames. IIRC, 7 seconds are required > between the second and third etc. frames. That slowdown after the initial two frames is due to buffer size, not response time for metering and AF. All digital cameras slow way down once the buffer is full and you have to wait for the photos to be written to a card.
Ron
Ron Hunter - 26 Feb 2005 19:03 GMT > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > enable their more responsive behavior, or is just that these features > were given priority by the designers? Basically, because they cost more, the manufacturer can afford to install a faster processor, and more ram along with a larger sensor. Then there is also more room for additional specialized chips which can do some of the work done by the CPU in other, cheaper and smaller, cameras.
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jean - 26 Feb 2005 20:27 GMT Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing electronic was as fast as my old film SLR, once I set everything to what I wanted (f stop, speed, focus) all i had to do was push the button, no lag no boot up, instant picture taking.
Jean
> > X-No-Archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Then there is also more room for additional specialized chips which can > do some of the work done by the CPU in other, cheaper and smaller, cameras. Ron Hunter - 26 Feb 2005 20:55 GMT > Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of > everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Jean Yes, but how long did it take you to set all that stuff up. I would bet that my $400 P&S can do all that better, and faster, than you can do it manually. Once I have pushed the button half-way down (the functional equivalent of your presetting above), there is no perceptible delay on it either. This wasn't the case with my older digital, however. Much progress has been made in this respect, both with DSLR and P&S cameras sold today.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 26 Feb 2005 23:54 GMT >> Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of >> everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > bet that my $400 P&S can do all that better, and faster, than you can > do it manually. What were you thinking of betting? In general, I find automatic exposures to be quite unsatisfactory.
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Ron Hunter - 27 Feb 2005 02:03 GMT >>>Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of >>>everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > What were you thinking of betting? In general, I find automatic > exposures to be quite unsatisfactory. I find them to be quite good, IF the camera is properly designed, and set. I find light meters, and calculations for exposure, then setting them, and then focusing, only to find the opportunity for a picture is long since past to be quite unsatisfactory.
If you have the time to do all that, fine, but that isn't the type of photography I do. Try doing that on a cruise up a fiord on a partly cloudy day. See how many pictures you manage to get.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 27 Feb 2005 21:38 GMT >>>>Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of >>>>everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > photography I do. Try doing that on a cruise up a fiord on a partly > cloudy day. See how many pictures you manage to get. In rooms full of people moving around and talking, it works much better than auto does. Well, I don't meter each shot, of course; I meter areas of the room and set the exposure as I move among them, so I'm always ready to focus and shoot.
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Bruce Lewis - 28 Feb 2005 14:56 GMT > > What were you thinking of betting? In general, I find automatic > > exposures to be quite unsatisfactory. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > photography I do. Try doing that on a cruise up a fiord on a partly > cloudy day. See how many pictures you manage to get. What camera do you use for such days? The point+shoot film and digital cameras I've used tend to get confused about exposure in such situations. I would much rather have a light meter in the viewfinder like with my Pentax K-1000.
My newer Canon Powershot s410 draws rectangles on the LCD showing what it's using to choose the exposure level, but that requires holding the camera away from my face, and I find it hard to keep steady that way.
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David J Taylor - 27 Feb 2005 11:49 GMT []
> What were you thinking of betting? In general, I find automatic > exposures to be quite unsatisfactory. They've been satisfactory on the cameras I've used (mainly Nikon Coolpix). I do sometimes recognise that the exposure may be incorrect (strongly backlit objects) and then I tend to take two exposures - one at the what the camera thinks is correct and one where I point the camera at a similarly lit subject to get the exposure. Often the camera image (darker) ends up being the better image!
Cheers, David
Justin Thyme - 27 Feb 2005 00:36 GMT >> Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of >> everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > equivalent of your presetting above), there is no perceptible delay on it > either. One of my film SLR's is quite an old fully manual body. I admit that it is slower to set up a shot than even the slowest of todays digicams. However for many circumstances I don't find this limiting. For example if I'm taking photos of my kids playing, or of a sporting event, the lighting doesn't change within the space of several minutes, so I can set my exposure once and then I don't have to worry about it. Most of my lenses can be focussed by hand just as quick as most AF systems. I can then worry about pressing the shutter button at the best time, without fear of having to wait for the AF system to kick in, or for the sensor to precharge etc. Even when I'm using an AF body, if I'm doing any form of time critical shooting, I will usually turn AF off, because fast as it is, I can't afford to miss a shot because I happen to be pointing at a low contrast area that causes the AF to hunt. Even though this camera is manual wind, everything sits so comfortable that I can quite comfortably shoot at around 2 frames/second - for an entire 36 exposure film if I wish. None of the digi compacts are capable of coming even close to that frame-rate for that number of exposures. Even most DSLR's can't maintain those sorts of framerates for that length of time. Admittedly it is very rare that I shoot more than a few frames at a time. So yes, my fully manual SLR is slower to set up a shot than a compact digi, but not significantly so. I found the compact digi would miss the shot a lot more often than the SLR would.
>This wasn't the case with my older digital, however. > Much progress has been made in this respect, both with DSLR and P&S > cameras sold today. Ron Hunter - 27 Feb 2005 02:08 GMT >>>Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of >>>everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >>Much progress has been made in this respect, both with DSLR and P&S >>cameras sold today. If you want to shoot that many shots in rapid succession, I suggest you buy a good movie camera. My P&S will shoot 6 shots in only about 3 seconds. That will do for me. BTW, if you shoot a whole roll in under 20 seconds often, your film costs must be akin to the national debt (US)!
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John A. Stovall - 27 Feb 2005 02:19 GMT snipped
>If you want to shoot that many shots in rapid succession, I suggest you > buy a good movie camera. My P&S will shoot 6 shots in only about 3 >seconds. That will do for me. BTW, if you shoot a whole roll in under >20 seconds often, your film costs must be akin to the national debt (US)! A movie camera won't have the shutter speed and lenses. I suggest you learn what a serious older motordrive 35mm with bulk film would do.
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Ron Hunter - 27 Feb 2005 06:25 GMT > snipped > [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Norman Cousins It would use up a LOT of film in a very short time, making it a very expensive item. I suppose a person doing certain types of photography would need such a camera. Not me.
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John A. Stovall - 27 Feb 2005 09:53 GMT >> snipped >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >expensive item. I suppose a person doing certain types of photography >would need such a camera. Not me. But you should resume then to know what others need to do their job.
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"History is a vast early warning system"
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John A. Stovall - 27 Feb 2005 10:13 GMT >>> snipped >>> [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > >But you should resume then to know what others need to do their job. Damn spell checker.
Change "resume" to "not presume"
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Ron Hunter - 27 Feb 2005 17:46 GMT >>>>snipped >>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Change "resume" to "not presume" How do you figure that from my statements? I said I didn't need such a camera.
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Big Bill - 27 Feb 2005 14:13 GMT >> One of my film SLR's is quite an old fully manual body. I admit that it is >> slower to set up a shot than even the slowest of todays digicams. However [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] >> but not significantly so. I found the compact digi would miss the shot a lot >> more often than the SLR would. My last two digitals (a C3030Z and the curent DR) can both be set to manual mode. Can't yours?
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jean - 27 Feb 2005 04:37 GMT > > Even a DSLR in idiot mode will be slow because it has to take care of > > everything, a nice P+S with manual controls can be fast too. Nothing [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Much progress has been made in this respect, both with DSLR and P&S > cameras sold today. My sister had a 35mm Nikon SLR (I don't know the model) and on idiot mode it would miss pics about 50% of the time while it was hunting for the right conditions, not to mention the batteries which were always run down. While the Nikon was fumbling, I could set my FTb many times over.
You are right, it does take time, but once it's done, click and the shutter releases. Don't get me wrong, I love my digital cameras, I work around the idiosyncracies (sp??) but sometimes you have to RTFM to get it to do what you want, hey, that's part of the game ;-)
Jean
Alan Meyer - 26 Feb 2005 20:30 GMT > > X-No-Archive: yes > > [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > specialized chips which can do some of the work done by the CPU > in other, cheaper and smaller, cameras. I suspect that's all true. But I wonder if the larger sensor also helps?
Maybe with a larger sensor that gathers more light per pixel, the focusing times and exposure calculation times can be reduced. Maybe also the post processing time needed to reduce noise can be less because there's less inherent noise. Maybe sharpening can also be a bit faster because the distinctions between adjacent pixels are clearer.
That's all just speculation though. I have no idea if any of it is true.
Alan
David Dyer-Bennet - 26 Feb 2005 23:53 GMT >> > X-No-Archive: yes >> > [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Maybe with a larger sensor that gathers more light per pixel, > the focusing times and exposure calculation times can be reduced. Nope. The sensor isn't use for focus or exposure on a DSLR. There's a mirror and a shutter in the way.
In fact, that's why they're so fast.
On a P&S that uses the CCD for everything, it has to close the shutter and clear the CCD before it can begin the exposure.
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Bill - 27 Feb 2005 00:37 GMT >Maybe with a larger sensor that gathers more light per pixel, >the focusing times and exposure calculation times can be reduced. Actually, the CCD/CMOS sensor has nothing to do with focusing or automatic exposure in a DSLR camera.
The sensors for those functions are reflected by the mirror up to the pentaprism chamber where those sensors reside. The main light capturing sensor is not exposed to light until the mirror moves up and the shutter curtains open.
In a small digicam, the process is somewhat different and the main sensor is often used for many of the functions. That's why P&S cameras often have movie modes while DSLR cameras don't, since the sensor can be exposed directly.
Matt Ion - 26 Feb 2005 19:15 GMT > X-No-Archive: yes > [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > enable their more responsive behavior, or is just that these features > were given priority by the designers? You get what you pay for.
Hap Shaughnessy - 26 Feb 2005 23:32 GMT >> X-No-Archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > >You get what you pay for. PLONK
Justin Thyme - 26 Feb 2005 22:55 GMT > X-No-Archive: yes > > Is there something intrinsic to the basic design of DSLR cameras that > enable their more responsive behavior, or is just that these features > were given priority by the designers? Yes, their intrinsic design makes them go faster - conventional P&S digicams use the main sensor as their AF sensor. The circuitry analyses the image to determine if it is sharp (in focus) or blurry (out of focus). It then readjusts the lens to get focus. Because there is no way of determining if the object is blurry because it is closer than the focus point or further away, they have to try adjusting focus in both directions until they get it right. There is no way of telling if the image is perfectly clear - instead what it has to do is keep adjusting the lens until it starts becoming blurry again (overshot the focus point), then pull it back to the point where it was at it's clearest. This system is quite slow. Because this main sensor is a video sensor rather than a dedicated still image sensor, when the user presses the shutter button, the sensor needs to be cleared and charged ready to take the photo. Modern cameras can do this much faster than the cameras of only a couple of years ago. After the photo has been taken, most compact digi's only have one processor to take care of all the functions of the camera, so while it is processing the image, converting it to JPG, and saving it on the card, it can't simultaneously be analysing focus and exposure for the next image, so you can't do anything until the camera finishes processing the photo you just took. A DSLR like a film SLR has a separate AF sensor that uses phase detection techniques to determine focus. This system not only tells the camera how accurate it is focused, but tells the camera how far and in which direction it is out of focus. The camera can then start moving the focus motor, and knows exactly which direction it needs to turn. While the lens is doing this, the AF sensor continues to monitor how accurate the focus is, and can slow down the lens motor as it is nearing focus point, so that it stops right on focus. Because there is no trial-and-error involved, this system is very fast. Because the main sensor is dedicated to taking the still image (it's not also trying to do live preview and focussing), the camera can have it already pre-charged, so that as soon as the shutter button is pressed it can start recording. Once you have taken the photo, most DSLR's have multiple processing streams, that allows them to simultaneously convert to JPG, save the image to the card, and be analysing the data from the AF & exposure sensors to be ready for the next photo. If digi compacts used some of the techniques that film compacts use, then they would be faster. For example most film compacts use infrared or ultrasonic autofocus systems. While not as fast and accurate as the phase-detection system used by SLR's, these systems are faster than using the imaging sensor. Film compacts usually also use light sensors on the body to judge exposure, whereas most digi's use the imaging sensor for that as well. If a digi compact was made using an IR or ultrasonic focus system, and with a separate light sensor on the body, and if the user wasn't using live preview (or EVF), then then it would be possible for the sensor to be precharged so that the camera is ready to take the photo as soon as you press the button. Doing this would of course add to the cost, and since it is a very price sensitive market, that is usually only compared on megapixels and zoom, manufacturers would be reluctant to add a feature like this to the camera, unless it is a premium model. Actually, my 5 year old Kodak DC3400 has these very features, and when used with the viewfinder off it is much quicker than the more modern CX7430. The DC3400 is only a 2MP, 2x zoom camera, and when I bought it cost more than 5 times the price of the current 4MP, 3x Zoom CX7430.
Frode P. Bergsager - 26 Feb 2005 23:16 GMT Thank you, at least there is one out of seven who have knowledge in addition to typing skills.
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Roland Karlsson - 27 Feb 2005 12:22 GMT > Thank you, at least there is one out of seven who have knowledge in > addition to typing skills. Yepp.
It really bugs me when lots of people are so kind to reply to a question without knowing a bit about the answer. It is not the price tag or demanding users that is the reason for DSLRs being faster; it is the design.
Non DSLR cameras has almost always retractable zoom lenses. They must go out before you can take pictures - that takes time. E.g. my Minlota/Konica X50 starts fast as lightning, although it is a cheap camera - it has an internal lens - nothing to move.
Non DSLR cameras focus on the sensor. That is hard stuff that takes a long time. DSLR cannot do that - so they use a specialised focus sensor. Much - much faster and more accurate.
DSLRs are also bigger - with more PoWeR in their batteries. Therefore it can move the lens faster, further improving speeds for everything that - ehem - moves the lens - eg zooming and focussing.
/Roland
Ron Hunter - 27 Feb 2005 02:13 GMT >>X-No-Archive: yes >> [quoted text clipped - 54 lines] > DC3400 is only a 2MP, 2x zoom camera, and when I bought it cost more than 5 > times the price of the current 4MP, 3x Zoom CX7430. I believe some cameras do operate that way, but mine seems to have a different type of focus system as it has an autofocus sensor on the front of the camera, just like most moderately inexpensive film cameras. It also has several focus modes. I find that it focuses MUCH faster than my older camera.
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David J Taylor - 27 Feb 2005 11:44 GMT []
> If digi compacts used some of the techniques that film compacts use, > then they would be faster. For example most film compacts use > infrared or ultrasonic autofocus systems. You can get that in the Nikon Coolpix 8400 - a dual-mode auto-focus system.
Cheers, David
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