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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / ZLR Cameras / December 2004Olympus 8 Megapixel Camedia C-8080 ZLR
People are posting ZLR reviews, and I have not seen any posted for the excellent 8 megapixel Olympus Camedia C-8080 Wide-Zoom so here goes. http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympusc8080wz/ http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews_olympus_c8080.php http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/C8080/C88A.HTM http://www.megapixel.net/reviews/oly-c8080/c8080-review.html http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/olympus/c8080wz-review/index.shtml http://www.steves-digicams.com/2004_reviews/c8080.html http://www.dp-now.com/archives/000610.html I'm going to play devil's advocate about this camera .... All the good things one reads about the 8080 are true...excellent lens with a useful zoom range, great picture quality, great build quality, great features, feels good to hold, etc, etc... I bought a C 8080 after reading all the reviews and testing it in the store. I used it for one week under all sorts of conditions, then returned it to the store for a refund... Why you might ask ? .... well, there are two flaws with the camera that most reviewers gloss over.... The first is that the EVF is mediocre at best. The image is small, (although fully visible with eyeglasses) and it's dull, with poor colour, poor detail, and difficult to use as a critical composition aid. The second problem is, imho, a fatal flaw... the LCD viewfinder is completely, and utterly, useless in bright daylight. It has a very reflective coating that bounces light back into your eyes, the image is completely washed out making it next to impossible to use. Under subdued lighting, like say, inside a store, it looks quite good... but under bright daylight...forget it. Tweaking the brightness setting for the LCD didn't make much difference. Also, the LCD is not completely articulated...I knew that of course, but didn't realize how much of an issue it would become in actual use. To use it in portrait mode, you have to hold it up at eye level and out from your face about a foot or so,.depending on how good your eyes are. Probably the worst possible position to avoid camera shake....you'll need a good tripod...no image stabilization. Of course you could always use that mediocre EVF...but it's not much better. And if you want to use the camera at ground level for macro shots, you can't use it in portrait mode unless you're lying on your stomach... A live LCD image is the biggest advantage the ZLRs have over the DSLRs. It can be a tremendous tool in framing and composing a picture. All of its viewfinder weaknesses make the C8080 frustrating and difficult to use in daylight... I went from loving it initially, to absolutely hating it after one week. It just wasn't any fun taking pictures.with this camera. I should state that my three year old Canon G2 has none of these problems. The G2 LCD just blows the doors off the Oly... I can use it in any light, even direct sunlight, and the LCD is bright and colourful. It really is a shame that Olympus put that piece of crap on the back of the camera. The C8080 would be truly outstanding if it had a good, fully articulated LCD. My advice to anyone thinking of buying this, or any camera, is to bring your own CF card to the local photo store, take a camera out for a while, and test it under the conditions that you'll be using the camera. Don't rely entirely on published reviews.... Me ? .... I'm still looking for a new ZLR with a good LCD... ....M > People are posting ZLR reviews, and I have not seen any posted for the > excellent 8 megapixel Olympus Camedia C-8080 Wide-Zoom so here goes. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > http://www.dp-now.com/archives/000610.html > Me ? .... I'm still looking for a new ZLR with a good LCD... > ....M E-20, great lens, TTL viewing + live LCD preview, excellent build quality, same size sensor as the current 8mp crop - but lower noise due to fewer pixels, loads about at good prices - still knocks the pants off the 'toy' cameras like the Z series, Dimages, etc. >> Me ? .... I'm still looking for a new ZLR with a good LCD... >> ....M [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > due to fewer pixels, loads about at good prices - still knocks the > pants off the 'toy' cameras like the Z series, Dimages, etc. 3 years old and three times the weight of anything I'd want to carry! Can you still buy SmartMedia cards? David >>> Me ? .... I'm still looking for a new ZLR with a good LCD... >>> ....M [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> due to fewer pixels, loads about at good prices - still knocks the >> pants off the 'toy' cameras like the Z series, Dimages, etc. > 3 years old and three times the weight of anything I'd want to carry! << Well, yes, Plastic can be Fantastic, and is the industry's material of choice for their toy cameras. If, however, you prefer a solid chunk of optically precise electro-mechanical engineering, it just has to be encased in metal. Sorry to hear of your incapacity, perhaps you could use some sort of small trolley to allow you to move a real camera from place to place? - is it your wrists?.... .. Can > you still buy SmartMedia cards?< Dunno - but since the E-20 takes Compct Flash/Microdrive, why lose any sleep over the question [] > Well, yes, Plastic can be Fantastic, and is the industry's material of > choice for their toy cameras. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > small trolley to allow you to move a real camera from place to place? > - is it your wrists?.... The metal cameras I carry weigh far less than 42oz - usually nearer 16oz. Perhaps they use a better material? I was, quite frankly, amazed when I saw the E20 quoted as 42oz (2.6lb). Is that perhaps a mistake? http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/olympuse20/page2.asp > .. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Dunno - but since the E-20 takes Compct Flash/Microdrive, why lose > any sleep over the question Oh, that's fine - no problems! David > >>> Me ? .... I'm still looking for a new ZLR with a good LCD... > >>> ....M [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > Dunno - but since the E-20 takes Compct Flash/Microdrive, why lose any sleep > over the question Is the E-20 available in the US??? I've looked (even with google) and cant find anyone selling it.  SignatureLarry Lynch Mystic, Ct. > Is the E-20 available in the US??? I've looked (even with google) and cant > find anyone selling it. Olympusautions on ebay has a couple for sale right now. http://makeashorterlink.com/?B27F457D9 hth, NB > Olympusautions on ebay has a couple for sale right now. > http://makeashorterlink.com/?B27F457D9 Please do not post links to auctions or for-sale items here. The charter for this newsgroup does not welcome such postings. Thank you. SignatureBill > Please do not post links to auctions or for-sale items here. The charter > for this newsgroup does not welcome such postings. Thank you. Dear Woodchuck Bill, The Post I was repling to asked: > Is the E-20 available in the US??? I've looked (even with google) and > cant > find anyone selling it. I have no personal connection with Olympus, and these auctions are direct from the manufacturer. I cannot understand why you took exception to my post. Is it illegal to tell someone where they might find something they wish to buy? I do not see this newsgroup gaining popularity if people who try to be helpful to others are sanctioned in this way. Happy Holidays, NB > Please do not post links to auctions or for-sale items here. The charter > for this newsgroup does not welcome such postings. Thank you. and your the cop og this group ? >> Please do not post links to auctions or for-sale items here. The >> charter for this newsgroup does not welcome such postings. Thank you. > > and your the cop og this group ? our community is now complete: the village idiot position is filled thank you, Chuck dirty job, but someone's got to do it >>> Please do not post links to auctions or for-sale items here. The >>> charter for this newsgroup does not welcome such postings. Thank you. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > dirty job, but someone's got to do it As a matter of interest from someone who has little experince of these groups - is the group moderated? Can a poster be excluded? Robert R. > As a matter of interest from someone who has little experince of these > groups - is the group moderated? Can a poster be excluded? The group is not moderated, and posters are excluded only by everyone ignoring them. Hard to do; impossible for some. But if no one posted a reply, ever, to a troll or A-hole (they are not synonymous, with several exceptions), they would eventually loose interest. Except the bots. But you wouldn't want to reply to a bot, would you? <s> SignatureJohn McWilliams >> As a matter of interest from someone who has little experince of these >> groups - is the group moderated? Can a poster be excluded? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > <s> Thanks for that. Appreciate your time. Robert R. > our community is now complete: the village idiot position is filled > > thank you, Chuck > > dirty job, but someone's got to do it damn your so funny, you should be a comedian, not. I dont know why you think Im an idiot, but your obviously a dumbass ... >> our community is now complete: the village idiot position is filled >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > I dont know why you think Im an idiot, but your obviously a dumbass > ... >> Please do not post links to auctions or for-sale items here. The >> charter for this newsgroup does not welcome such postings. Thank you. > > and your the cop og this group ? " Three tries, three failures. You're the most qualified applicant. Could be that's why. Never mind. SignatureFrank ess I found a new E20 for sale at Amazon for about $1700. Dell has a new Canon 20D for $1600 with no tax (in PA), no shipping and no interest for a year (to preferred account holders). Given a choice, guess which one I'm going to buy? Now, I can't post links to these cameras and I can't discuss the features of the Canon without violating the charter of this group, so you'll have to visit another news group to verify what I say. Don't you just love free and open discussion? > I found a new E20 for sale at Amazon for about $1700. Dell has a new > Canon 20D for $1600 with no tax (in PA), no shipping and no interest [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > charter of this group, so you'll have to visit another news group to > verify what I say. Don't you just love free and open discussion? If you have something of interest to say to ZLR users about the cameras they are using or comparisons with other cameras I don't see why you shouldn't say your piece. You have already indicated the purchase sources of these cameras so I am sure that anyone who is interested will be able to find them. Thanks for respecting the charter. David >I found a new E20 for sale at Amazon for about $1700. Dell has a new > Canon 20D for $1600 with no tax (in PA), no shipping and no interest [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > of this group, so you'll have to visit another news group to verify > what I say. Don't you just love free and open discussion? If you wanted an E20, don't look at Amazon. It may be available for less than half that at B&H, probably in the 600's. A couple weeks ago the B&H had the E1 for 1149. You can get the 20D a lot cheaper too. Ron Yeah, but I was trying to find new prices to compare apples to apples. The only thing B&H has is used E20's and you can find them elsewhere, including E-Bay for around the range you cite. Let me know if you see a 20D for a lot cheaper, as I really am looking to buy one. Yeah, but I was trying to find new prices to compare apples to apples. The only thing B&H has is used E20's and you can find them elsewhere, including E-Bay for around the range you cite. Let me know if you see a 20D for a lot cheaper, as I really am looking to buy one. Now I see Nikon has a 10x, 8 megapixel ZLR w/stabilization for a thousand dollars, the 8800. Also a wide angle variety w/IS, the 8400. Getting harder to choose ZLR or SLR if price is a consideration, since lenses can cost more than the camera. > Now I see Nikon has a 10x, 8 megapixel ZLR w/stabilization for a > thousand dollars, the 8800. Also a wide angle variety w/IS, the 8400. > Getting harder to choose ZLR or SLR if price is a consideration, since > lenses can cost more than the camera. Leaving price out of it (because you /know/ it will be cheaper next year...), the distinction between SLR and ZLR remains clear-cut. Even if you leave price in it, where is the SLR plus a 10:1 image stabilised zoom lens around 400mm focal length for the price of the Nikon 8800, let alone for the price of the Panasonic FZ20 or Canon S1 IS? And what is the weight comparison? Cheers, David That was kind of my point. Assuming you call the Nikon 8800 a top of the line ZLR, it gets a little harder to justify the SLR with IS lens to match the capabilities of the 8800. For example, the Canon 20D with a 300mm IS zoom will price out at around $2000 to $3000 or more, depending on lens/lenses. Is flexibility worth that? Especially when even that flexibility might be made obsolete in today's rapidly changing marketplace. Who knows what might replace the DSLR in two or three years as the next big thing? Think I'll stick with my S1 IS for a while longer. Just saw that Amazon has the 1.6 teleconverter lens/hood/adapter combo for $140. Maybe I can add the closeup lens for a few dollars more. That'll keep me happy for a few more months. ;o) > Assuming you call the Nikon 8800 a top of > the line ZLR, it gets a little harder to justify the SLR with IS lens > to match the capabilities of the 8800. For example, the Canon 20D with > a 300mm IS zoom will price out at around $2000 to $3000 or more, > depending on lens/lenses. > Is flexibility worth that? And quality, I'd say. That depends on you and what you want to do. The 8800: - lighter, (much) cheaper!!, smaller - no extra lenses to buy and factor into the price - can do movies - twistable monitor - no dust on the sensor problems - no mirror slap noise, probably really silent - on-monitor view of all important parameters The 20D: - ISO 1600 (good) and 3200 (OK). Practically no noise at/below ISO 400. - 50mm (80mm equiv) Canon lenses available with f/1.8 ($70), f/1.4 ($300) and f/1.0 ($2500). They are very nice portrait lenses, too, giving a nice bukeh. (Cheaper 3rd party lenses exist.) - 70-200 (112-320 equiv) f/2.8 IS L lenses exist($1700), too. (though slower lenses, without IS, are much much cheaper) => low-light advantage of 3-7 steps. Even if you can use flash, you get less of the available light (and use more flash power), risking to drown the background in black. - fast lenses give you a _narrow_ depth of sharpness. You cannot get that in any other way, not with flashes or tripods or more light or any other tricks. - The lenses can be re-used for many years on many cameras. You can even switch to film, if you want ... - Lenses stop down to f/22. - moderately fast flash-sync of 1/250s allows you fill-in flashes at day to lighten shadows. - extensive tweakable white balance - 5 frames/s, with a deep buffer - switch on practically instantly (0.2s), just press the shutter button to be ready to shoot in any and all modes of the camera - probably higher quality (10x zoom lenses have to make 'some' concessions. Note how high quality lenses seldom have more than 3x zoom ...) - direct view in the searcher, no light->sensor->monitor->eye chain will slow things down. - most important settings can be reached without going through any menu, so you are faster 'on the draw'. - 8 point AF circle + center AF point, including predictive AF for moving targets. But then making great photos is not a function of your camera: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/notcamera.htm so choose whichever camera fits best in your budget and > Especially when even that flexibility might be made obsolete in > today's rapidly changing marketplace. The lenses of an SLR, if quality lenses they are, can be used for decades. And the lenses for SLRs stay over much longer periods. > Who knows what might replace the DSLR in two or > three years as the next big thing? The 35mm format has been going for almost a century (since 1914, see http://www.leica-camera.com/unternehmen/historie/barnack/index_e.html for more information), so I wouldn't worry myself sleepless about the next 2 or 3 years, really. > Think I'll stick with my S1 IS for > a while longer. Just saw that Amazon has the 1.6 teleconverter > lens/hood/adapter combo for $140. Maybe I can add the closeup lens for > a few dollars more. That'll keep me happy for a few more months. ;o) Note that such a "teleconverter" does degrade quality. The question is: does it degrade enough for the 8800's sensor to see it, and if so, so much that you do care? -Wolfgang [] > The lenses of an SLR, if quality lenses they are, can be used for > decades. And the lenses for SLRs stay over much longer periods. Wolfgang, whilst you make some good points, lens mount formats can and do change, leaving you with an expensive set of obsolete lenses. Quality SLR image-stabilised lenses at f/2.8 (equivalent to the Panasonic FZ20) are very expensive and far to heavy to carry around for everyday photography. I do feel that the ZLR has enabled us to break away from the restrictions of last century's 35mm format, giving us an extra choice for what we buy. Cheers, David I am seeing a DSLR alternative that I like a lot, other things being equal. The Konica Minolta Maxxum D7 has image stabilization built into the camera, so less expensive and lighter weight non-IS lenses are all that's required for the same job. Now, on the other side of the coin, it will cost twice as much for the body and one basic zoom lens as does the Panasonic or other stabilized ZLR's. The Maxxum seems to have a lot of unanswered questions hanging, so it's hard to say whether it's a great camera or not, but the idea is great. >> The lenses of an SLR, if quality lenses they are, can be used for >> decades. And the lenses for SLRs stay over much longer periods. > Wolfgang, whilst you make some good points, lens mount formats can and do > change, leaving you with an expensive set of obsolete lenses. True, the last backwards incompatible shift was AFAIK mechanical to electrical contacts for lenses (e.g. for autofocus). This however does not happen all that often, does it? > Quality SLR > image-stabilised lenses at f/2.8 (equivalent to the Panasonic FZ20) are > very expensive and far to heavy to carry around for everyday photography. True, but on a 20D even a f/4 unstabilized lens (or a stabilized lens stopped to f/8 or f/11) will give you equivalent or better performance: Light sensitivity[1]: FZ20 f/2.8, ISO 100 == D20 f/8, ISO 800 (or even f/11, ISO 1600), or f/4, ISO 1600 and +3 steps to counter a 'no stabilizer' claim.[3] Depth of field[2]: FZ20's f/2.8 ~= D20 @ f10 ~= 35mm @ f/16 FZ20 pros: - much lighter, several times cheaper(!), smaller --- taking pictures with a camera left home tends to be rather hard. - 12x zoom range without any lens changes, though very tele-biased. - inbuild macro mode - inbuild image stabilisator - good in medium-to-low-light large DOF situations (parties etc.) - a damaged camera won't hurt your purse as much by far. - web/computer friendly 4:3 format - movies (quarter-VGA only, though) - live histogram 20D pros: - much better shallow depth of field (portraits!) - much larger ISO range, giving better low-light performance even with stabilized slower lenses or similar performance even without stabilisation. - fast prime lenses[4] available - much more wide angle available - larger buffer, faster continous mode (sports!), orientation sensor - most important changes can be done without going through any menu. - no viewfinder lag, extreme viewfinder resolution, DOF preview > I do feel that the ZLR has enabled us to break away from the restrictions > of last century's 35mm format, giving us an extra choice for what we buy. And that is a Very Good Thing. I do use an even smaller 3MP P&S camera, and it does great things within it's limits. And I do carry it always, it's riding on my hip ... unlike some equipment who'se cost and weight are both one order of magnitude higher. -Wolfgang [1] http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz20/page9.asp "Visible noise at ISOs above 100" http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page28.asp "Very low noise levels even at high sensitivities, fully usable ISO range (100 - 3200)" [2] http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonicfz20/ "1/2.5" Type CCD" -> 5.760 x 4.290mm per http://www.dpreview.com/learn/?/Glossary/Camera_System/Sensor_Sizes_01.htm http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos20d/page2.asp "22.5 x 15.0 mm CMOS sensor" According to http://www.wrotniak.com/photo/dof/ "The depth of field of a digital camera with a lens of the 1:N focal length equivalence ratio at a given F-setting is the same as that of a 35 mm camera with a lens closed down to the aperture number of F multiplied by N." [3] Note that AFAIK the 20D is currently the best DSLR when it comes to low noise at high ISO rates. [4] If you _really_ need low light performance, Canon's 50mm (80mm equiv. on the 20D) f/1.8 lens is 1.5 steps below f/2.8, 132g and $75: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&sku=12142&is=USA and the f/1.4 is 290g and $300 (for that extra half-stop of light and shallow DOF). Even a Canon 50mm f/1.0 is out there for the rich. Of course these *are* prime lenses, no zoom there. [] >> I do feel that the ZLR has enabled us to break away from the >> restrictions of last century's 35mm format, giving us an extra [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > -Wolfgang I found that I stopped carrying my SLR because it was so cumbersome and heavy with all the extra lenses. Just like you, I always carry my P&S. I miss fewer photos that way! Cheers, David |
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