Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / May 2008
live view slr cameras
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tony - 11 May 2008 19:57 GMT I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view SLR cameras available, please. Thanks, Tony
Focus - 11 May 2008 20:15 GMT >I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >view SLR cameras available, please. > Thanks, > Tony I had the following:
Nikon D300, Canon 40D and Sony A350. My choice is finally the Sony, because I think it gives a lot for the price, compared with the others. And:..... it's the only one with really fast action in liveview mode.
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Focus - 12 May 2008 09:11 GMT >>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >>view SLR cameras available, please. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > price, compared with the others. > And:..... it's the only one with really fast action in liveview mode. Forgot to mention: The A350 has a tiltable screen. this may sound trivial, but when I was shooting one day, I came across some red deer behind a fence, with tiny holes. If I had the A350, I could have reached up and still see what I was about to shoot. Also it came in handy for car shots from down low.
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Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:02 GMT >>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >>>view SLR cameras available, please. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> price, compared with the others. >> And:..... it's the only one with really fast action in liveview mode.
> Forgot to mention: > The A350 has a tiltable screen. this may sound trivial, but when I was > shooting one day, I came across some red deer behind a fence, with tiny > holes. If I had the A350, I could have reached up and still see what I was > about to shoot. Also it came in handy for car shots from down low. I found a tiltable LCD screen to be so unexpectedly useful for non-eye-level image composition, especially in places where the eye can't get to, that in future I won't get a camera without that feature.
Apart from that what I like about having live view is being able to see the image clearly in conditions too dim to use a viewfinder, and being able to superimpose useful exposure information over the image when required, such a histogram or flashing the overexposed highlights. Makes it very much easier to make a well-informed decision about how to handle difficult exposure situations. And for careful compositions I do like it being very easy to see the exact image size.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Focus - 12 May 2008 12:58 GMT >>>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >>>>view SLR cameras available, please. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > about how to handle difficult exposure situations. And for careful > compositions I do like it being very easy to see the exact image size. Also, you can see the wb, picture control and even the effect of exposure compensation! (Well, at least on mine) Remember the old 6x6 cameras didn't even have a viewfinder..
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jazu - 11 May 2008 20:52 GMT >I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >view SLR cameras available, please. > Thanks, > Tony The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.
tony - 11 May 2008 21:27 GMT Many thanks to Focus and Jazu Tony
>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >>view SLR cameras available, please. >> Thanks, >> Tony > The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission. Ali - 11 May 2008 21:52 GMT I agree to a certain extent. For me, normally speaking, if you can use a decent view finder as opposed to the LCD, then use it. Of course, unless you are privileged to be using a 100% view finder, you need to judge it slightly for perfect in-camera cropping. Personally, for my photos a 100% view finder would be more beneficial than live view, but horses for courses.
There are however some advantages of using live view, for example if you need the camera so high or low that you can't easily use the view finder (maybe you want to shoot from the ground pointing up or shoot above a crowd of people standing in front of you). Also, particularly useful when DOF is absolutely critical. When using big aperture lenses, what you see through the view finder in not always correct and can show more in-focus through the view finder than it actually is. In this situation, then it would be more beneficial to use the live view function and I expect many macro photographers would benefit from this. I rarely shoot macro, or have the camera in a position where I am unable to use the view finder, so not an important feature for me, but there are some users that will find in indispensible.
>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >>view SLR cameras available, please.
> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission. Gumby - 12 May 2008 00:05 GMT "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 @pd7urf3no:
> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission. Bollocks. Liveview really helps when I am shooting in very dark scenes.
Pete D - 12 May 2008 05:52 GMT > "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 > @pd7urf3no: > >> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission. >> > Bollocks. Liveview really helps when I am shooting in very dark scenes. Crap, if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen.
frederick - 12 May 2008 06:44 GMT >> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 >> @pd7urf3no: [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Crap, if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen. You've been sprung - you haven't used Lv huh?
Pete D - 12 May 2008 11:55 GMT >>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 >>> @pd7urf3no: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> Crap, if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen. > You've been sprung - you haven't used Lv huh? Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be too, you just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very dark".
frederick - 12 May 2008 21:05 GMT >>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 >>>> @pd7urf3no: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be too, you > just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very dark". You can amplify the signal though. I would have thought that screen brightness in Lv mode can be adjusted independently from the normal LCD brightness adjustment on most cameras.
Chris Malcolm - 13 May 2008 10:11 GMT >>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 >>>> @pd7urf3no: [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >>> Crap, if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen. >> You've been sprung - you haven't used Lv huh?
> Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be too, you > just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very dark". You don't seem to understand how live view works. There's no need to "manufacture light". The image is converted to digital electronic form. There's a *lot* that can be done to improve brightness electronically and digitally without "manufacturing light". I guess you must be generalising from experience with a camera which had rather unsophisticated live view. I've got s 35mm film SLR and with the same max lens aperture of f2.8 I get clear bright images in my digital camera live view in situations where my SLR optical viewfinder is annoyingly dim.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Gumby - 15 May 2008 14:42 GMT > Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be > too, you just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very > dark". I didn't say *complete* darkness. I can see better on the LCD screen than looking through a peep hole in the dark is what I meant so stop twisting my words.
Pete D - 16 May 2008 09:38 GMT >> Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be >> too, you just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > my > words. Fair enough but I expect that your experience of viewfib=nders and mine is different, do you use Oly's?
Gumby - 16 May 2008 19:06 GMT > Fair enough but I expect that your experience of viewfib=nders and > mine is different, do you use Oly's? Yes, my fist DC was the Oly C2020Z so decided to stick with them and also because I am not rich and the Oly E-510 was the best bang-for-buck DSLR I could find once they did the price drop about 6 months ago. My film camera is a Nikon though.
Pete D - 16 May 2008 22:54 GMT >> Fair enough but I expect that your experience of viewfib=nders and >> mine is different, do you use Oly's? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > could find once they did the price drop about 6 months ago. My film camera > is a Nikon though. This does explain your reluctance to use the normal viewfinder, seriously the Oly viewfinders are simply crap, they remind me of looking down one of those cheap kids three inch long telescopes that seem to work in reverse.
Gumby - 18 May 2008 17:37 GMT > This does explain your reluctance to use the normal viewfinder, > seriously the Oly viewfinders are simply crap, they remind me of > looking down one of those cheap kids three inch long telescopes that > seem to work in reverse. No it doesn't. The viewfinder works fine and is just as good as my Nikon film camera. Obviously you asked me that question just so you could use it as an opportunity to bash Olympus. Well, screw you. It cost half of what a Nikon D60 costs!
Pete D - 20 May 2008 08:41 GMT >> This does explain your reluctance to use the normal viewfinder, >> seriously the Oly viewfinders are simply crap, they remind me of [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > as an opportunity to bash Olympus. Well, screw you. It cost half of what a > Nikon D60 costs! Rubbish, you are mistaken about the viewfinder and it should cost less than that.
Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:07 GMT >> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 >> @pd7urf3no: >> >>> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission. >>> >> Bollocks. Liveview really helps when I am shooting in very dark scenes.
> Crap, if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen. Either yours was broken or cheap crap. That's not how the good ones operate. Of course the other possibility is that you simply don't know what you're talkkng about :-)
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
tony - 13 May 2008 15:21 GMT Many thanks to everyone who has contributed helpful advice. It has certainly produced a lively debate! Tony
>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287 >>> @pd7urf3no: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > operate. Of course the other possibility is that you simply don't know > what you're talkkng about :-) Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:05 GMT >>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live >>view SLR cameras available, please. >> Thanks, >> Tony
> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission. It would be if it was the only way of seeing the image. But AFAIK it's always (in DSLRS) supplied as a switchable option. There when you want it, and having no effect at all when you don't. Best of both worlds.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Jürgen Exner - 11 May 2008 21:27 GMT >I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view >SLR cameras available, please. Why would you want a "live view"? To drain the batteries faster because of the additional LCD or to have a slower auto-focus because of contrast instead phase detection?
jue
frederick - 11 May 2008 22:16 GMT >> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view >> SLR cameras available, please. > > Why would you want a "live view"? To drain the batteries faster because > of the additional LCD or to have a slower auto-focus because of contrast > instead phase detection? I've found live-view to be useless for ordinary shooting. The only good use I've had for it is for critical manual focus for macro tripod shooting, where you can zoom in to 10x view. There is a slight lag (delay) with the D300 in this mode. Focus accuracy has much more precision than using the viewfinder. I guess it might in theory be useful for landscape shooting using the same method, but IMO it's not worth the bother. Some versions of liveview using a separate image feed taken from an image of the viewfinder screen would not be as useful for critical focus, but might be okay for use of the camera "point and shoot style". That's not viable IMO when camera and lens combination are well over 1kg.
As others have pointed out, contrast detect AF is near useless. Nikon's system of dropping the mirror and using the camera main phase-detect AF works well (part from slight delay while this happens), but again IMO is not much use in practice - I've yet to find a situation where that would be less hassle than just using the camera normally.
Alan Hoyle - 12 May 2008 14:39 GMT > J??rgen Exner wrote: >>> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > focus, but might be okay for use of the camera "point and shoot style". > That's not viable IMO when camera and lens combination are well over 1kg.
> As others have pointed out, contrast detect AF is near useless. Nikon's > system of dropping the mirror and using the camera main phase-detect AF > works well (part from slight delay while this happens), but again IMO is > not much use in practice - I've yet to find a situation where that would > be less hassle than just using the camera normally. The Olympus E-330 and Sony A350 can both do primary-mirror-down, "image of the viewfinder screen" live-view and can therefore do fast, SLR-style phase-detect focusing while in live-view mode.
Sony uses a penta-mirror setup with a tiltable element to change the light-path from "to the eyepiece" to "to a secondary image sensor." This means that the regular VF is completely dark when the Sony's live-view mode is engaged.
The Olympus actually has two live-view modes, but "Live-mode A" is the one I'm talking about here. It uses a partially-silvered porro-mirror setup, so the VF is always a little bit darker than an otherwise similar porro-mirror whether live-view is enabled or not, but both the eyepiece and the screen display an image. Olympus also has "Live-mode B" which uses the more conventional "flip the mirror out of the way and use the primary image sensor" method, and requires mirror slaps and loss of live-view for AF usage.
Both cameras have an articulated screen which makes live-view far more useful.
-alan
 Signature Alan Hoyle - alanh@unc.edu - http://www.alanhoyle.com/
Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:13 GMT J?rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote: f> "tony" <tony@norsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view >>SLR cameras available, please.
> Why would you want a "live view"? To drain the batteries faster because > of the additional LCD or to have a slower auto-focus because of contrast > instead phase detection? You seem to be thinking of a compact camera in which the live view is the only option. AFAIK in DSLRs it's offered as an option which you can switch off when not needed. I'm not sure what you mean by "additional" LCD. Are you perhaps thinking of those cameras which have both a live view LCD and an EVF? AFAIK in those models the extra battery drain of running two screens doesn't arise because they don't run both at once. You switch manually between them, and in some case can also select autoswitching (when the eye comes up to the viewfinder).
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Focus - 12 May 2008 13:16 GMT > J?rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote: > f> "tony" <tony@norsey.demon.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > can also select autoswitching (when the eye comes up to the > viewfinder). These people are asleep, Chris, and haven't grasped the fact that Nikon, Canon and Sony are now offering liveview in all their newest and most expensive DSLR's. "Who needs air conditioning in a car? Why electric windows?" LOL! Liveview is still new, but mark my words: it will be incorporated in all future DSLRs except the very cheapest. If I hook up my camera to my 42" TV, I can see details I could never dream about before, so for studio work it's also a fantastic tool.
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Gumby - 15 May 2008 14:49 GMT > "Who needs air conditioning in a car? Why electric windows?" LOL! > Liveview is still new, but mark my words: it will be incorporated in > all future DSLRs except the very cheapest. Olympus E-510 was one of the first to have Liveview in a DSLR and also happens to be one of the cheapest you can buy.
Focus - 15 May 2008 15:33 GMT >> "Who needs air conditioning in a car? Why electric windows?" LOL! >> Liveview is still new, but mark my words: it will be incorporated in >> all future DSLRs except the very cheapest. > > Olympus E-510 was one of the first to have Liveview in a DSLR and also > happens to be one of the cheapest you can buy. Yes, but with a 2 x crop sensor..
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Gumby - 16 May 2008 00:53 GMT "Focus" <focus@home.pt> wrote in news:OoOdne4- tINc1LHVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@novis.pt:
> Yes, but with a 2 x crop sensor.. Olympus E-510 = 18.00 x 13.50 mm
Nikon D60 = 23.6 x 15.8 mm
Um, were did you go to school? That's not 2X smaller.
Alan Browne - 16 May 2008 01:00 GMT > "Focus" <focus@home.pt> wrote in news:OoOdne4- > tINc1LHVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@novis.pt: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Um, were did you go to school? That's not 2X smaller. The nominal standard (35mm) for this purpose is 36 x 24 mm.
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Jürgen Exner - 16 May 2008 04:15 GMT >"Focus" <focus@home.pt> wrote in news:OoOdne4- >> Yes, but with a 2 x crop sensor.. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >Um, were did you go to school? That's not 2X smaller. That's a factor of 1.31 (for the long side) times 1.5 (the crop factor for the D60) yields 1.95. To me that is close enough to 2 for all practical purposes. Of course it would have been even easier to just divide 36mm by 18mm to get the factor directly.
jue
Jürgen Exner - 15 May 2008 20:23 GMT >J?rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote: >f> "tony" <tony@norsey.demon.co.uk> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >the only option. AFAIK in DSLRs it's offered as an option which you >can switch off when not needed. That's exactly what I'm afraid of. Once live view becomes commonplace manufacturers will start eliminating the optical view finder as has happened to virtually all compacts.
>I'm not sure what you mean by >"additional" LCD. Are you perhaps thinking of those cameras which have >both a live view LCD and an EVF? No, I was talking about those dSLRs that have a status display on top (which uses almost no battery at all) and then the color LCD back for menu control/setup and photo/live view display (which uses quite a bit more power).
jue
C J Campbell - 12 May 2008 23:30 GMT > I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view > SLR cameras available, please. > Thanks, > Tony I have a Nikon D300.
Pros: Tripod mode makes very fine focusing adjustments possible. Large, high resolution LCD.
Cons: Having to trip the shutter twice: once to raise the mirror, again to take the picture. Slow reaction time between shutter press and action. Non-tiltable screen.
I think it is fine for use on tripods when taking pictures of static subjects. I found it useless when shooting photos with the camera close to the ground. A DSLR is too heavy to use with Live View handheld; you simply cannot get a steady shot with the camera held away from your face.
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Chris Malcolm - 13 May 2008 10:38 GMT >> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view >> SLR cameras available, please. >> Thanks, >> Tony
> I have a Nikon D300.
> Pros: > Tripod mode makes very fine focusing adjustments possible. > Large, high resolution LCD.
> Cons: > Having to trip the shutter twice: once to raise the mirror, again to > take the picture. > Slow reaction time between shutter press and action. > Non-tiltable screen.
> I think it is fine for use on tripods when taking pictures of static > subjects. I found it useless when shooting photos with the camera close > to the ground. A DSLR is too heavy to use with Live View handheld; you > simply cannot get a steady shot with the camera held away from your > face. Steadiness of hand under load is an area where there is huge variation between people, and huge variation between in how it is affected by age. I was under the impression that it was easier for me to hold a heavy camera steady away from my face than a light one. I was walking around yesterday happily composing shots in my LCD rather than viewfinder with a rather heavy version of my camera. So out of curiosity I weighed it. 2lb 15oz. I then checked its steadineiness when held 18 inches away from my face with one hand. Bit of an effort, but at least just as steady at the same zoom as I can hold my small cig packet sized digicam with one hand, possibly slightly steadier.
When shooting close to the ground you can often get your elbows on the ground for added steadiness. I also note that sometimes when trying to get a very steady shot with the camera jammed up to my eye, I get a slight blood pressure pulse movement in the image. When that happens I can get a steadier shot by moving the camera away from my face.
However, I do have much steadier hands than most. I developed steady arm's length holding skills through pistol shooting practice fifty years ago, and I haven't yet lost too much of them through age :-)
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
C J Campbell - 13 May 2008 13:41 GMT >>> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view >>> SLR cameras available, please. [quoted text clipped - 39 lines] > arm's length holding skills through pistol shooting practice fifty > years ago, and I haven't yet lost too much of them through age :-) I knew a competition shooter who used to do strength training by draping his wife's heavy handbag over the barrel of his pistol and then hold it out at arm's length.
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