Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / May 2008

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

live view slr cameras

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
tony - 11 May 2008 19:57 GMT
I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
SLR cameras available, please.
Thanks,
Tony
Focus - 11 May 2008 20:15 GMT
>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>view SLR cameras available, please.
> Thanks,
> Tony

I had the following:

Nikon D300, Canon 40D and Sony A350.
My choice is finally the Sony, because I think it gives a lot for the price,
compared with the others.
And:..... it's the only one with really fast action in liveview mode.

Signature

Focus

Focus - 12 May 2008 09:11 GMT
>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>>view SLR cameras available, please.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> price, compared with the others.
> And:..... it's the only one with really fast action in liveview mode.

Forgot to mention:
The A350 has a tiltable screen. this may sound trivial, but when I was
shooting one day, I came across some red deer behind a fence, with tiny
holes. If I had the A350, I could have reached up and still see what I was
about to shoot. Also it came in handy for car shots from down low.

Signature

Focus

Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:02 GMT
>>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>>>view SLR cameras available, please.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> price, compared with the others.
>> And:..... it's the only one with really fast action in liveview mode.

> Forgot to mention:
> The A350 has a tiltable screen. this may sound trivial, but when I was
> shooting one day, I came across some red deer behind a fence, with tiny
> holes. If I had the A350, I could have reached up and still see what I was
> about to shoot. Also it came in handy for car shots from down low.

I found a tiltable LCD screen to be so unexpectedly useful for
non-eye-level image composition, especially in places where the eye
can't get to, that in future I won't get a camera without that
feature.

Apart from that what I like about having live view is being able to
see the image clearly in conditions too dim to use a viewfinder, and
being able to superimpose useful exposure information over the image
when required, such a histogram or flashing the overexposed
highlights. Makes it very much easier to make a well-informed decision
about how to handle difficult exposure situations. And for careful
compositions I do like it being very easy to see the exact image size.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Focus - 12 May 2008 12:58 GMT
>>>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>>>>view SLR cameras available, please.
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> about how to handle difficult exposure situations. And for careful
> compositions I do like it being very easy to see the exact image size.

Also, you can see the wb, picture control and even the effect of exposure
compensation! (Well, at least on mine)
Remember the old 6x6 cameras didn't even have a viewfinder..

Signature

Focus

jazu - 11 May 2008 20:52 GMT
>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>view SLR cameras available, please.
> Thanks,
> Tony
The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.
tony - 11 May 2008 21:27 GMT
Many thanks to Focus and Jazu
Tony

>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>>view SLR cameras available, please.
>> Thanks,
>> Tony
> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.
Ali - 11 May 2008 21:52 GMT
I agree to a certain extent.  For me, normally speaking, if you can use a
decent view finder as opposed to the LCD, then use it.  Of course, unless
you are privileged to be using a 100% view finder, you need to judge it
slightly for perfect in-camera cropping.  Personally, for my photos a 100%
view finder would be more beneficial than live view, but horses for courses.

There are however some advantages of using live view, for example if you
need the camera so high or low that you can't easily use the view finder
(maybe you want to shoot from the ground pointing up or shoot above a crowd
of people standing in front of you).  Also, particularly useful when DOF is
absolutely critical.  When using big aperture lenses, what you see through
the view finder in not always correct and can show more in-focus through the
view finder than it actually is.  In this situation, then it would be more
beneficial to use the live view function and I expect many macro
photographers would benefit from this.  I rarely shoot macro, or have the
camera in a position where I am unable to use the view finder, so not an
important feature for me, but there are some users that will find in
indispensible.

>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>>view SLR cameras available, please.

> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.
Gumby - 12 May 2008 00:05 GMT
"jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
@pd7urf3no:

> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.

Bollocks. Liveview really helps when I am shooting in very dark scenes.
Pete D - 12 May 2008 05:52 GMT
> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
> @pd7urf3no:
>
>> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.
>>
> Bollocks. Liveview really helps when I am shooting in very dark scenes.

Crap,  if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen.
frederick - 12 May 2008 06:44 GMT
>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
>> @pd7urf3no:
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> Crap,  if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen.

You've been sprung - you haven't used Lv huh?
Pete D - 12 May 2008 11:55 GMT
>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
>>> @pd7urf3no:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> Crap,  if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen.
> You've been sprung - you haven't used Lv huh?

Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be too, you
just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very dark".
frederick - 12 May 2008 21:05 GMT
>>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
>>>> @pd7urf3no:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be too, you
> just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very dark".

You can amplify the signal though. I would have thought that screen
brightness in Lv mode can be adjusted independently from the normal LCD
brightness adjustment on most cameras.
Chris Malcolm - 13 May 2008 10:11 GMT
>>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
>>>> @pd7urf3no:
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>>> Crap,  if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen.
>> You've been sprung - you haven't used Lv huh?

> Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be too, you
> just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very dark".

You don't seem to understand how live view works. There's no need to
"manufacture light". The image is converted to digital electronic
form. There's a *lot* that can be done to improve brightness
electronically and digitally without "manufacturing light". I guess
you must be generalising from experience with a camera which had
rather unsophisticated live view. I've got s 35mm film SLR and with
the same max lens aperture of f2.8 I get clear bright images in my
digital camera live view in situations where my SLR optical viewfinder
is annoyingly dim.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Gumby - 15 May 2008 14:42 GMT
> Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be
> too, you just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very
> dark".

I didn't say *complete* darkness. I can see better on the LCD screen than
looking through a peep hole in the dark is what I meant so stop twisting my
words.
Pete D - 16 May 2008 09:38 GMT
>> Yes and with IR as well, if it is "very dark" on screen it will be
>> too, you just can't manufacture light, especially if it is "very
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> my
> words.

Fair enough but I expect that your experience of viewfib=nders and mine is
different, do you use Oly's?
Gumby - 16 May 2008 19:06 GMT
> Fair enough but I expect that your experience of viewfib=nders and
> mine is different, do you use Oly's?

Yes, my fist DC was the Oly C2020Z so decided to stick with them and also
because I am not rich and the Oly E-510 was the best bang-for-buck DSLR I
could find once they did the price drop about 6 months ago. My film camera
is a Nikon though.
Pete D - 16 May 2008 22:54 GMT
>> Fair enough but I expect that your experience of viewfib=nders and
>> mine is different, do you use Oly's?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> could find once they did the price drop about 6 months ago. My film camera
> is a Nikon though.

This does explain your reluctance to use the normal viewfinder, seriously
the Oly viewfinders are simply crap, they remind me of looking down one of
those cheap kids three inch long telescopes that seem to work in reverse.
Gumby - 18 May 2008 17:37 GMT
> This does explain your reluctance to use the normal viewfinder,
> seriously the Oly viewfinders are simply crap, they remind me of
> looking down one of those cheap kids three inch long telescopes that
> seem to work in reverse.

No it doesn't. The viewfinder works fine and is just as good as my Nikon
film camera. Obviously you asked me that question just so you could use it
as an opportunity to bash Olympus. Well, screw you. It cost half of what a
Nikon D60 costs!
Pete D - 20 May 2008 08:41 GMT
>> This does explain your reluctance to use the normal viewfinder,
>> seriously the Oly viewfinders are simply crap, they remind me of
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> as an opportunity to bash Olympus. Well, screw you. It cost half of what a
> Nikon D60 costs!

Rubbish, you are mistaken about the viewfinder and it should cost less than
that.
Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:07 GMT
>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
>> @pd7urf3no:
>>
>>> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.
>>>
>> Bollocks. Liveview really helps when I am shooting in very dark scenes.

> Crap,  if it is that dark then there will just be dark on the screen.

Either yours was broken or cheap crap. That's not how the good ones
operate. Of course the other possibility is that you simply don't know
what you're talkkng about :-)

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

tony - 13 May 2008 15:21 GMT
Many thanks to everyone who has contributed  helpful advice.
It has certainly produced  a lively debate!
Tony

>>> "jazu" <nofreakingspam@nospam.com> wrote in news:Q7IVj.131495$rd2.104287
>>> @pd7urf3no:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> operate. Of course the other possibility is that you simply don't know
> what you're talkkng about :-)
Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:05 GMT
>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live
>>view SLR cameras available, please.
>> Thanks,
>> Tony

> The whole idea is like a sport car with automatic transmission.

It would be if it was the only way of seeing the image. But AFAIK it's
always (in DSLRS) supplied as a switchable option. There when you want
it, and having no effect at all when you don't. Best of both worlds.

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Jürgen Exner - 11 May 2008 21:27 GMT
>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
>SLR cameras available, please.

Why would you want a "live view"? To drain the batteries faster because
of the additional LCD or to have a slower auto-focus because of contrast
instead phase detection?

jue
frederick - 11 May 2008 22:16 GMT
>> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
>> SLR cameras available, please.
>
> Why would you want a "live view"? To drain the batteries faster because
> of the additional LCD or to have a slower auto-focus because of contrast
> instead phase detection?

I've found live-view to be useless for ordinary shooting.  The only good
use I've had for it is for critical manual focus for macro tripod
shooting, where you can zoom in to 10x view.  There is a slight lag
(delay) with the D300 in this mode.  Focus accuracy has much more
precision than using the viewfinder.  I guess it might in theory be
useful for landscape shooting using the same method, but IMO it's not
worth the bother.
Some versions of liveview using a separate image feed taken from an
image of the viewfinder screen would not be as useful for critical
focus, but might be okay for use of the camera "point and shoot style".
 That's not viable IMO when camera and lens combination are well over 1kg.

As others have pointed out, contrast detect AF is near useless.  Nikon's
system of dropping the mirror and using the camera main phase-detect AF
works well (part from slight delay while this happens), but again IMO is
not much use in practice - I've yet to find a situation where that would
be less hassle than just using the camera normally.
Alan Hoyle - 12 May 2008 14:39 GMT
> J??rgen Exner wrote:
>>> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> focus, but might be okay for use of the camera "point and shoot style".
>  That's not viable IMO when camera and lens combination are well over 1kg.

> As others have pointed out, contrast detect AF is near useless.  Nikon's
> system of dropping the mirror and using the camera main phase-detect AF
> works well (part from slight delay while this happens), but again IMO is
> not much use in practice - I've yet to find a situation where that would
> be less hassle than just using the camera normally.

The Olympus E-330 and Sony A350 can both do primary-mirror-down,
"image of the viewfinder screen" live-view and can therefore do fast,
SLR-style phase-detect focusing while in live-view mode.

Sony uses a penta-mirror setup with a tiltable element to change the
light-path from "to the eyepiece" to "to a secondary image sensor."
This means that the regular VF is completely dark when the Sony's
live-view mode is engaged.

The Olympus actually has two live-view modes, but "Live-mode A" is the
one I'm talking about here.  It uses a partially-silvered porro-mirror
setup, so the VF is always a little bit darker than an otherwise
similar porro-mirror whether live-view is enabled or not, but both
the eyepiece and the screen display an image.  Olympus also has
"Live-mode B" which uses the more conventional "flip the mirror out of
the way and use the primary image sensor" method, and requires mirror
slaps and loss of live-view for AF usage.

Both cameras have an articulated screen which makes live-view far more
useful.  

-alan

Signature

 Alan Hoyle  -  alanh@unc.edu  -  http://www.alanhoyle.com/

Chris Malcolm - 12 May 2008 12:13 GMT
J?rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote:
f> "tony" <tony@norsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
>>SLR cameras available, please.

> Why would you want a "live view"? To drain the batteries faster because
> of the additional LCD or to have a slower auto-focus because of contrast
> instead phase detection?

You seem to be thinking of a compact camera in which the live view is
the only option. AFAIK in DSLRs it's offered as an option which you
can switch off when not needed. I'm not sure what you mean by
"additional" LCD. Are you perhaps thinking of those cameras which have
both a live view LCD and an EVF? AFAIK in those models the extra
battery drain of running two screens doesn't arise because they don't
run both at once. You switch manually between them, and in some case
can also select autoswitching (when the eye comes up to the
viewfinder).

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

Focus - 12 May 2008 13:16 GMT
> J?rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote:
> f> "tony" <tony@norsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> can also select autoswitching (when the eye comes up to the
> viewfinder).

These people are asleep, Chris,  and haven't grasped the fact that Nikon,
Canon and Sony are now offering liveview in all their newest and most
expensive DSLR's.
"Who needs air conditioning in a car? Why electric windows?" LOL!
Liveview is still new, but mark my words: it will be incorporated in all
future DSLRs except the very cheapest.
If I hook up my camera to my 42" TV, I can see details I could never dream
about before, so for studio work it's also a fantastic tool.

Signature

Focus

Gumby - 15 May 2008 14:49 GMT
> "Who needs air conditioning in a car? Why electric windows?" LOL!
> Liveview is still new, but mark my words: it will be incorporated in
> all future DSLRs except the very cheapest.

Olympus E-510 was one of the first to have Liveview in a DSLR and also
happens to be one of the cheapest you can buy.
Focus - 15 May 2008 15:33 GMT
>> "Who needs air conditioning in a car? Why electric windows?" LOL!
>> Liveview is still new, but mark my words: it will be incorporated in
>> all future DSLRs except the very cheapest.
>
> Olympus E-510 was one of the first to have Liveview in a DSLR and also
> happens to be one of the cheapest you can buy.

Yes, but with a 2 x crop sensor..

Signature

Focus

Gumby - 16 May 2008 00:53 GMT
"Focus" <focus@home.pt> wrote in news:OoOdne4-
tINc1LHVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@novis.pt:

> Yes, but with a 2 x crop sensor..

Olympus E-510 = 18.00 x 13.50 mm

Nikon D60 = 23.6 x 15.8 mm

Um, were did you go to school? That's not 2X smaller.
Alan Browne - 16 May 2008 01:00 GMT
> "Focus" <focus@home.pt> wrote in news:OoOdne4-
> tINc1LHVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@novis.pt:
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Um, were did you go to school? That's not 2X smaller.

The nominal standard (35mm) for this purpose is 36 x 24 mm.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Jürgen Exner - 16 May 2008 04:15 GMT
>"Focus" <focus@home.pt> wrote in news:OoOdne4-
>> Yes, but with a 2 x crop sensor..
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Um, were did you go to school? That's not 2X smaller.

That's a factor of 1.31 (for the long side) times 1.5 (the crop factor
for the D60) yields 1.95. To me that is close enough to 2 for all
practical purposes.
Of course it would have been even easier to just divide 36mm by 18mm to
get the factor directly.

jue
Jürgen Exner - 15 May 2008 20:23 GMT
>J?rgen Exner <jurgenex@hotmail.com> wrote:
>f> "tony" <tony@norsey.demon.co.uk> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>the only option. AFAIK in DSLRs it's offered as an option which you
>can switch off when not needed.

That's exactly what I'm afraid of. Once live view becomes commonplace
manufacturers will start eliminating the optical view finder as has
happened to virtually all compacts.

>I'm not sure what you mean by
>"additional" LCD. Are you perhaps thinking of those cameras which have
>both a live view LCD and an EVF?

No, I was talking about those dSLRs that have a status display on top
(which uses almost no battery at all) and then the color LCD back for
menu control/setup and photo/live view display (which uses quite a bit
more power).

jue
C J Campbell - 12 May 2008 23:30 GMT
> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
> SLR cameras available, please.
> Thanks,
> Tony

I have a Nikon D300.

Pros:
Tripod mode makes very fine focusing adjustments possible.
Large, high resolution LCD.

Cons:
Having to trip the shutter twice: once to raise the mirror, again to
take the picture.
Slow reaction time between shutter press and action.
Non-tiltable screen.

I think it is fine for use on tripods when taking pictures of static
subjects. I found it useless when shooting photos with the camera close
to the ground. A DSLR is too heavy to use with Live View handheld; you
simply cannot get a steady shot with the camera held away from your
face.
Signature

Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Chris Malcolm - 13 May 2008 10:38 GMT
>> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
>> SLR cameras available, please.
>> Thanks,
>> Tony

> I have a Nikon D300.

> Pros:
> Tripod mode makes very fine focusing adjustments possible.
> Large, high resolution LCD.

> Cons:
> Having to trip the shutter twice: once to raise the mirror, again to
> take the picture.
> Slow reaction time between shutter press and action.
> Non-tiltable screen.

> I think it is fine for use on tripods when taking pictures of static
> subjects. I found it useless when shooting photos with the camera close
> to the ground. A DSLR is too heavy to use with Live View handheld; you
> simply cannot get a steady shot with the camera held away from your
> face.

Steadiness of hand under load is an area where there is huge variation
between people, and huge variation between in how it is affected by
age. I was under the impression that it was easier for me to hold a
heavy camera steady away from my face than a light one. I was walking
around yesterday happily composing shots in my LCD rather than
viewfinder with a rather heavy version of my camera. So out of
curiosity I weighed it. 2lb 15oz. I then checked its steadineiness
when held 18 inches away from my face with one hand. Bit of an effort,
but at least just as steady at the same zoom as I can hold my small
cig packet sized digicam with one hand, possibly slightly steadier.

When shooting close to the ground you can often get your elbows on the
ground for added steadiness. I also note that sometimes when trying to
get a very steady shot with the camera jammed up to my eye, I get a
slight blood pressure pulse movement in the image. When that happens I
can get a steadier shot by moving the camera away from my face.

However, I do have much steadier hands than most. I developed steady
arm's length holding skills through pistol shooting practice fifty
years ago, and I haven't yet lost too much of them through age :-)

Signature

Chris Malcolm        cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk              DoD #205
IPAB,  Informatics,  JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK
[http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]

C J Campbell - 13 May 2008 13:41 GMT
>>> I would be interested to read members' reviews of and views on the live view
>>> SLR cameras available, please.
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> arm's length holding skills through pistol shooting practice fifty
> years ago, and I haven't yet lost too much of them through age :-)

I knew a competition shooter who used to do strength training by
draping his wife's heavy handbag over the barrel of his pistol and then
hold it out at arm's length.
Signature

Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2008 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.