Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2008
Pentax K20D
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Tony Polson - 26 Jan 2008 15:22 GMT This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about it on here, so I thought I would post one today.
The K20D is based on the excellent K10D. Where it differs is in its 14.6 MP Samsung CMOS sensor and Live View. There is also a dynamic range expansion feature, based on compression at the time of taking the shot, and the SR shake reduction has been improved, offering a reduction equivalent to almost 4 stops in certain conditions.
To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is Samsung's first APS-C size sensor for Pentax and it finally consummates the partnership which the two companies entered into a couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung GX-20D.
Here is the DPReview report on the announcement: http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012311pentaxk20d.asp
Paul Furman - 26 Jan 2008 23:17 GMT > This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about > it on here, so I thought I would post one today. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Here is the DPReview report on the announcement: > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012311pentaxk20d.asp The megapixel wars continue :-) It sounds like a nice camera though.
Darrell Larose - 27 Jan 2008 17:49 GMT > This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about > it on here, so I thought I would post one today. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung > GX-20D. I didn't see any reference to the CMOS being fabricated by Samsung, The new Sony Alpha A300 will also rumoured to be a 14.6 megapixel CMOS. Sony already announced and is shipping soon the CAD $600, A200 (10.2 mp) and will announce the A300 (14.6 mp, live view and swivel screen) and the A350 at PMA08.
The Nikon D90 *may* also have this CMOS chip.
Tony Polson - 27 Jan 2008 18:04 GMT >I didn't see any reference to the CMOS being fabricated by Samsung I found two references to this, but I admit that neither was on the site that I linked to in my original posting.
time - 28 Jan 2008 15:31 GMT >>I didn't see any reference to the CMOS being fabricated by Samsung http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012312pentaxk20dhandson.asp
> I found two references to this, but I admit that neither was on the > site that I linked to in my original posting. Peter Stavrakoglou - 27 Jan 2008 19:02 GMT > This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about > it on here, so I thought I would post one today. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Here is the DPReview report on the announcement: > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0801/08012311pentaxk20d.asp And there were some who thought Pentax was dying. I think they are just beginning.
Dan Lenski - 28 Jan 2008 17:47 GMT > This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about > it on here, so I thought I would post one today. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > the shot, and the SR shake reduction has been improved, offering a > reduction equivalent to almost 4 stops in certain conditions. Yeah, they initially claimed almost 4 stops for the K10D as well, whereas it turns out to be 2 to 3 stops generally for me... which is nothing to complain about, especially when it works perfectly with old manual focus lenses!! I think we'd better wait for more real-world tests of the K20D's shake reduction...
> To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's > highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is > Samsung's first APS-C size sensor for Pentax and it finally > consummates the partnership which the two companies entered into a > couple of years ago. Naturally there is also a near-identical Samsung > GX-20D. The new sensor will have a lot of benefits! The increased ISO range to 6400, the live view, and the reported extremely low sensor noise are awesome though. There has been a bit of disappoint with the K10D's low-light performance since it only goes to ISO 1600, whereas the 6 MP K100D went to ISO 3200.
As I understand it, Pentax+Samsung were constrained until now to pick from the limited number of sensor models produced by Sony. The K10D used the same sensor as the Nikon D40X while the K100D/Super used the same one as the Nikon D40. Now that Samsung is producing the sensors, they can fine-tune the features they want. Awesome!
I have been very happy with my new K10D, so I'm sure the K20D will not disappoint either. One thing I really want to know is, what will be the real-world price of the K20D??? The K10D has been such an unbeatable value. I got mine for less than the price of Canon's 400D and Nikon's D40X entry-level kits... while the K10D actually has features competitive with the Nikon D80 and Canon 40D. I hope they'll be aggressive on pricing the K20D too. More Pentax owners will mean more lens options, I hope.
Dan
no_spam_from_scumbags@die_scumbags.com - 28 Jan 2008 19:45 GMT Well, one thing to keep in mind is that I don't think any companies numbers are real world as a user would get numbers. In a lab under perfect conditions you can probably get and the thing is probably capable of 4 stops. But, labs aren't the real world which is why benchmark testing is a big waste of time and only a fool would trust them to make a purchase.
Robert
RichA - 28 Jan 2008 23:06 GMT > Well, one thing to keep in mind is that I don't think any companies numbers > are real world as a user would get numbers. In a lab under perfect [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Robert So how does camera shake in the lab differ from the real world camera shake? This isn't fuel economy.
Dan Lenski - 28 Jan 2008 23:44 GMT > So how does camera shake in the lab differ from the real world camera > shake? This isn't fuel economy. Presumably, Pentax came up with a fairly accurate model for real-world camera shake, maybe basing it on measured data from one or several real photographers. Then they designed a shake reduction system to correct this model camera-shake as well as possible. Finding that their system corrected the model camera-shake enough to allow 4 stops longer exposure, they advertise it as such.
But of course, the camera shake from *me* holding the camera is probably a little bit different from the camera shake when *you* hold the camera, and both of us are probably not quite the same as the model that Pentax used. So results vary from individual to individual.
Dan
no_spam_from_scumbags@die_scumbags.com - 29 Jan 2008 05:42 GMT Also, I choose a camera in with in body SR because I have a nerve disorder that causes me to shake. No matter how hard I try to hold the camera steady it shakes. I can promise you that Pentax didn't line up a bunch of people with various nerve disorders to do lab testing. Benchmark testing has always and still is a flawed way of proving a devices capabilities. Take a computer for instance. The people running the benchmark test it with Windows running alone, the Windows with Photoshop, then Windows, Photoshop and Norton Anti-Virus. Well that is a very small amount of testing. They didn't test it with Windows, Photoshop and MacAfee, some other anti-virus. They didn't test it after running 3 years straight with normal user use (installing and uninstalling software, etc.). What they test the system under in benchmark testing is so small that it is worthless for real world comparison.
Even software reviews suffer from this. The results ones would get from installing a software program on a clean system and using it for 20 minutes is a far cry from someone installing it on a system with tons of other stuff, using it for several times a day for 2 or 3 hours for several months. The reviewer doing the test on a clean system is going to run in to far fewer bugs, crashes, etc. than the person using the software in the real world.
This is why benchmark testing shouldn't be used as any part of a purchasing decision and reviews should be read from many sources, the results averaged and used a small fraction of the information used to decide what program to buy or not to buy. One of the best sources of buying information comes from people that have bought and used the product in the real world. That is why places like Circuit City, Best Buy, Amazon.com have user reviews/ratings. However, these also have to be watched because too many people either don't know what they are doing, don't know what their talking about, have a grudge against a company, etc. So these user reviews need to be used a yet another small fraction for a purchasing decision. Buy the time you get information from all available sources you should have a fairly complete picture and should have a much better chance of getting what you want and what you expect.
Benchmarks however are 100% worthless.
Robert
no_spam_from_scumbags@die_scumbags.com - 29 Jan 2008 05:45 GMT Oh, and lets not forget the role of the marketing department which has a tendency to make any thing weak seem like a much desired feature that everyone should be clamoring to get. By the time you run the best possible scenario the benchmark numbers are so far off they might as well have come from another galaxy. Marketing makes most of the mess when trying to get to the true about a product. The would hype ice to an ice cube and get it to buy.
Robert
Tony Polson - 28 Jan 2008 22:29 GMT >> This was announced last Wednesday. I haven't seen any postings about >> it on here, so I thought I would post one today. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >manual focus lenses!! I think we'd better wait for more real-world >tests of the K20D's shake reduction... True. Manufacturers' claims cannot be relied on. Konica Minolta made outrageous claims for the anti-shake on their two DSLRs when all the system could manage was slightly better than one stop.
>> To me the key feature is the sensor, which not only raises Pentax's >> highest pixel count by 45% but is *made by Samsung*. This is [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >same one as the Nikon D40. Now that Samsung is producing the sensors, >they can fine-tune the features they want. Awesome! Exactly. This justifies the Pentax-Samsung collaboration that, until now, has looked slightly weird since each model announced so far has used Sony sensors.
>I have been very happy with my new K10D, so I'm sure the K20D will not >disappoint either. One thing I really want to know is, what will be [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >be aggressive on pricing the K20D too. More Pentax owners will mean >more lens options, I hope. In the UK, the suggested retail price for the K20D is about 50% higher than that of the K10D. By the end of 2008, I expect the K20D to sell at the same price as the K10D sold for at the end of 2007.
Dan Lenski - 28 Jan 2008 23:51 GMT > >Yeah, they initially claimed almost 4 stops for the K10D as well, > >whereas it turns out to be 2 to 3 stops generally for me... which is [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > outrageous claims for the anti-shake on their two DSLRs when all the > system could manage was slightly better than one stop. Interesting. I'd never heard that! Nonetheless, I'd say I am very pleased with the shake reduction of the K10D. I had never used any kind of image stabilization before, and it's a significant, if not miraculous, improvement.
> >As I understand it, Pentax+Samsung were constrained until now to pick > >from the limited number of sensor models produced by Sony. The K10D [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > now, has looked slightly weird since each model announced so far has > used Sony sensors. Yep, that's right. I imagine Pentax has been slightly frustrated by not being able to get a 10 MP sensor with as good low-light performance as the K100D... I know a lot of K100D users are a bit disappointed by the announcement that the K200D will use the K10D's sensor.
Do you think Pentax+Samsung have had the goal of producing their own DSLR sensors all along, since the collaboration began? And this is just the first model brought to market? Or does this represent an actual shift in their commitment of resources, now that their DSLRs have some momentum in the market?
> >I have been very happy with my new K10D, so I'm sure the K20D will not > >disappoint either. One thing I really want to know is, what will be [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > than that of the K10D. By the end of 2008, I expect the K20D to sell > at the same price as the K10D sold for at the end of 2007. If it works out that way, no complaints from me! :-)
Dan
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2008 03:08 GMT >> True. Manufacturers' claims cannot be relied on. Konica Minolta made >> outrageous claims for the anti-shake on their two DSLRs when all the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >kind of image stabilization before, and it's a significant, if not >miraculous, improvement. The Pentax/Samsung shake reduction works in a different way to other in-camera systems. The up-and-down and side-to-side movement is compensating by moving the sensor up-and-down and side-to-side as in other systems. However there is additional compensation for rotating the camera/lens combination about the lens axis, which the other in-camera systems don't have.
If you jab rather than slowly squeeze the shutter button, the right side of the camera goes down slightly, rotating the camera/lens combination about the lens axis. The Pentax/Samsung system compensates by rotating the sensor about the lens axis in the opposite direction. It's very clever, and it seems to work very well.
>I imagine Pentax has been slightly frustrated by >not being able to get a 10 MP sensor with as good low-light >performance as the K100D... I know a lot of K100D users are a bit >disappointed by the announcement that the K200D will use the K10D's >sensor. The K10D sensor is an excellent sensor, capable of resolving fine detail. I don't think the K200D buyers should be too disappointed with a K10D sensor at a much lower price.
>Do you think Pentax+Samsung have had the goal of producing their own >DSLR sensors all along, since the collaboration began? And this is >just the first model brought to market? Or does this represent an >actual shift in their commitment of resources, now that their DSLRs >have some momentum in the market? When the collaboration was announced, both companies made great play of the strengths that the other brought to the relationship. At that time, Pentax made it clear that Samsung's expertise was in sensor design and manufacture. Because all Pentax and Samsung DSLRs to date have used Sony sensors, we have had to wait until now to see that Samsung genuinely does have something to offer.
Until now, Sony has had a stranglehold on the sensor market, supplying the majority of P&S digicam sensors plus DSLR sensors for Nikon, Pentax, Samsung and Konica Minolta, whose DSLRs Sony took over. The profitability of Sony's digital imaging division has always been underpinned by its huge earnings from selling sensors.
Now that Pentax has an alternative supplier for one DSLR model, you can be sure there will be more Samsung sensors to follow soon. Nikon is designing its own sensors (although Sony currently manufactures them) so you can see Sony being squeezed a little. P&S sales have reached a plateau and will drop. And with very disappointing sales of the Sony Alpha DSLRs, there is not much for Sony to fall back on.
>> In the UK, the suggested retail price for the K20D is about 50% higher >> than that of the K10D. By the end of 2008, I expect the K20D to sell >> at the same price as the K10D sold for at the end of 2007. > >If it works out that way, no complaints from me! :-) I agree. I think the K20D will be a very popular DSLR, helping to increase Pentax's and Samsung's market share, and cementing Pentax's place as No.3 in the DSLR sales statistics, with Sony, Olympus and Panasonic trailing behind.
Dan Lenski - 29 Jan 2008 04:53 GMT > The Pentax/Samsung shake reduction works in a different way to other > in-camera systems. The up-and-down and side-to-side movement is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > compensates by rotating the sensor about the lens axis in the opposite > direction. It's very clever, and it seems to work very well. I didn't realize the other in-body stabilization systems lacked rotational stabilization. Definitely a good addition.
I have been wondering how the sensor suspension is physically constructed. Springs? Some kind of electromechanical device? Coils with magnetically tunable stiffness? The system clearly responds differently depending on focal length, as I've found out with old manual focus lenses when I forget to set the right focal length. I've tried lightly jiggling the camera with the mirror up in sensor cleaning mode, and couldn't see any visible motion of the sensor... damped or otherwise.
> The K10D sensor is an excellent sensor, capable of resolving fine > detail. I don't think the K200D buyers should be too disappointed > with a K10D sensor at a much lower price. Well at the moment, you can get the K10D kit + lens for about $600 in the USA, which is well below the K200D's list price when it becomes available. Marketing-wise, it might not be the best strategy for Pentax to take some K10D features and put them in the K200D... since it gives customers a clear picture of exactly what they're NOT getting. Although if the prices come down to the level of the current K100D Super, around $450 for the kit, that will be a phenomenal deal.
> When the collaboration was announced, both companies made great play > of the strengths that the other brought to the relationship. At that > time, Pentax made it clear that Samsung's expertise was in sensor > design and manufacture. Because all Pentax and Samsung DSLRs to date > have used Sony sensors, we have had to wait until now to see that > Samsung genuinely does have something to offer. If the rave reviews are to be believed, it's the lowest-noise APS-C sensor ever produced. Would love to know how they pulled it off.
> Until now, Sony has had a stranglehold on the sensor market, supplying > the majority of P&S digicam sensors plus DSLR sensors for Nikon, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > reached a plateau and will drop. And with very disappointing sales of > the Sony Alpha DSLRs, there is not much for Sony to fall back on. More competition for DSLR sensors is hopefully a good thing for consumers! Any idea when Nikon's own sensors will make their first appearance?
Dan
nospam - 29 Jan 2008 05:10 GMT In article <4047d198-d547-4e12-a0af-a23c01a7200a@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>,
> I have been wondering how the sensor suspension is physically > constructed. Springs? Some kind of electromechanical device? Coils [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > cleaning mode, and couldn't see any visible motion of the sensor... > damped or otherwise. it's probably not engaged in sensor cleaning mode. try an exposure of a few seconds, but i suspect the distance it moves won't be very noticable.
> If the rave reviews are to be believed, it's the lowest-noise APS-C > sensor ever produced. Would love to know how they pulled it off. that remains to be seen, and also how much of it is due to noise reduction after the fact versus true low noise from the sensor.
> More competition for DSLR sensors is hopefully a good thing for > consumers! Any idea when Nikon's own sensors will make their first > appearance? nikon designed sensors appeared with the d2h a few years ago (lbcast), and are currently in the d3. nikon also has its own modifications to the sony made sensors in their other cameras (for instance, 4 channel readout on the d200).
no_spam_from_scumbags@die_scumbags.com - 29 Jan 2008 05:50 GMT There have been pre-production samples from the K20D at ISO 1600 and 3200 and they are impressive.
http://www.popphoto.com/cameras/5049/first-look-pentax-k20d.html
Click on the camera photo to bring up the sample image gallery, the later ones (there are 14 sample images) show comparisons at high ISOs. For pre-production they look pretty impressive. They should be better by the time it ships with full non-beta firmware.
Robert
no_spam_from_scumbags@die_scumbags.com - 29 Jan 2008 05:48 GMT The K10D uses electromagnetism. It is different from say Sony. I don't like Sony as a brand or a company so I can't comment on how they do it. But, I have read Pentax is different from others.
Robert
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2008 11:55 GMT >I didn't realize the other in-body stabilization systems lacked >rotational stabilization. Definitely a good addition. As far as I know, Pentax has the only system that does this.
>I have been wondering how the sensor suspension is physically >constructed. Springs? Some kind of electromechanical device? Coils [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >cleaning mode, and couldn't see any visible motion of the sensor... >damped or otherwise. I would not be surprised if SR was turned off in sensor cleaning mode.
>> The K10D sensor is an excellent sensor, capable of resolving fine >> detail. I don't think the K200D buyers should be too disappointed [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >getting. Although if the prices come down to the level of the current >K100D Super, around $450 for the kit, that will be a phenomenal deal. Wait and see. I doubt that Pentax would offer a set of features and prices that caused potential customers to go elsewhere.
It is beginning to become apparent just why Hoya Corporation snapped up Pentax in 2007. Pentax was a sleeping giant. There were some excellent products in the pipeline, as we can now see. I suspect Pentax has plenty more in development, too.
>If the rave reviews are to be believed, it's the lowest-noise APS-C >sensor ever produced. Would love to know how they pulled it off. It's a bit early to place much reliance on reviews, when they will probably be no more than previews of pre-production bodies. But if the claims are true, Pentax (and Samsung) will see substantial growth in their market share in 2008.
>More competition for DSLR sensors is hopefully a good thing for >consumers! Any idea when Nikon's own sensors will make their first >appearance? They already did - the D2X had the first.
frederick - 30 Jan 2008 00:12 GMT >> I didn't realize the other in-body stabilization systems lacked >> rotational stabilization. Definitely a good addition. [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > > They already did - the D2X had the first. D2H was before D2X with Nikon designed JFET LBCAST sensor. They don't disclose who makes the D3 sensor, but it's probably Sony. Last year Nikon patented a non-bayer sensor using dichroic mirrors, with suggested resolution performance of foveon, but much better light-gathering. Perhaps that is one future path.
Check Roger N Clark's site for details on the D300 sensor. That makes it fairly clear than Nikon/Sony have made some considerable gains since the 10mp CCDs in D200/80/40x. Once production is up and running, the D300 sensors shouldn't cost more to make than a 10mp or 6mp APS-c sensor.
David J Taylor - 30 Jan 2008 07:37 GMT []
> Check Roger N Clark's site for details on the D300 sensor. That makes > it fairly clear than Nikon/Sony have made some considerable gains > since the 10mp CCDs in D200/80/40x. Once production is up and > running, the D300 sensors shouldn't cost more to make than a 10mp or > 6mp APS-c sensor. See:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary/
David
no_spam_from_scumbags@die_scumbags.com - 29 Jan 2008 05:47 GMT Yes, the SR in the K10D works very well. But, not 4 stop well. Not in the real world. 3 Stops at best, more often than not 2 to 2-1/2 which is still good. I would expect the provided SR in the K20D to get 3 to 3-1/2. Like all new things it gets perfected over the generations. Thankful computer generations are quite short. 20 to 30 minutes at best! :)
Robert
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2008 12:01 GMT >Yes, the SR in the K10D works very well. But, not 4 stop well. Not in the >real world. 3 Stops at best, more often than not 2 to 2-1/2 which is still >good. I would expect the provided SR in the K20D to get 3 to 3-1/2. Like all >new things it gets perfected over the generations. Thankful computer >generations are quite short. 20 to 30 minutes at best! :) Robert,
In Usenet newsgroups like this one it is considered polite to include context when replying. In other words, please would you include some quoted text from the message you are replying to, as I have done - see above.
Without context the discussion doesn't flow, and is instead reduced to a number of staccato outbursts which are difficult to relate to the points other people are making.
You make some very good points, and they would be even better made if we could all see who you are replying to, and to which points.
Tony
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