Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2007
New lens for XT ?????
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jazu - 16 Dec 2007 23:18 GMT There is my story of my SLR camera I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for new lens I basically got stuck with unused equipment for one year. I don't like much pictures made with this lens. Now I want to buy some lens. My budget is not to high this year either. Let's say $500. I want to buy just one walk around lens. I read many reviews. To stay with canon lens or rather to buy Sigma, Tamron replacement. If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? thanks
Robert Coe - 17 Dec 2007 00:29 GMT : There is my story of my SLR camera : I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for new [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? : thanks I've been happy with my Sigma 18-50mm f/2.8. I've had no experience with the kit lens, so I can't comment on the lenses' relative sharpness. But the Sigma, which maintains f/2.8 over its entire zoom range, gives you an extra half stop at the wide end and two stops at the narrow end. The downside is that it's rather big and heavy.
Bob
David J. Littleboy - 17 Dec 2007 00:58 GMT > There is my story of my SLR camera > I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > canon lens or rather to buy Sigma, Tamron replacement. > If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? The Tamron 28-75/2.8 produces some of the sharpest images I get from my 5D, and I have quite a few specialty and "L" lenses as well. It's a flipping gem. Cheap, light, sharp, and fast. It really is amazing. AF is a bit slow and funky, but you can't have everything.
The other nice thing about it is that it'll still be useful when you get a FF camera.
By the way, don't chuck the kit lens. It should produce decent images if you shoot at f/8 or f/11, and you'll need something wider than the 45mm equivalent wide end of the 28-75/2.8.
David J. Littleboy Tokyo, Japan
Paul Furman - 17 Dec 2007 02:23 GMT >> There is my story of my SLR camera >> I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > shoot at f/8 or f/11, and you'll need something wider than the 45mm > equivalent wide end of the 28-75/2.8. What is more interesting now, wide angle or a little tighter? What sort of situations will you be photographing? Landscape, portraits, indoor/low light, architecture, action (sports, children), wildlife... The kit lens probably does fine stopped down in the middle range so that leaves the wider or longer end to improve on and a fixed length or less zoom range usually gets you better image quality for the budget.
Annika1980 - 17 Dec 2007 03:44 GMT > If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > thanks I get to answer this question at least once a week and the answer is always the same. The Canon 28-135 IS.
Here's a shot I took with mine in the McDonalds parking lot on Maui. http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/36264486/original
jazu - 17 Dec 2007 04:14 GMT >> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? >> thanks > > I get to answer this question at least once a week and the answer is > always the same. The Canon 28-135 IS. So far this lens is on 2nd place at my list. 1st place is for Canon 17-55 IS.
jazu - 17 Dec 2007 04:55 GMT > So far this lens is on 2nd place at my list. 1st place is for Canon 17-55 > IS. Sorry, 1st place is for 17-85 IS
jazu - 17 Dec 2007 04:19 GMT > I get to answer this question at least once a week and the answer is > always the same. The Canon 28-135 IS. 28mm is wider that most P&S, so how it works for indoor shots when comes to group of people around the table?
David J Taylor - 17 Dec 2007 07:30 GMT []
> 28mm is wider that most P&S, so how it works for indoor shots when > comes to group of people around the table? Only on full-frame. On the XT it's nearer to 42mm FOV, whereas many compacts are 36mm FoV or wider. My Panasonic TZ3 is 28mm FoV, a lot wider than a 28mm on an XT, and almost as wide as the 18 - 55mm on my Nikon D40. I would want wider than 28mm (physical) on an XT.
Cheers, David
Paul Furman - 17 Dec 2007 18:13 GMT > I get to answer this question at least once a week and the answer is >> always the same. The Canon 28-135 IS. >> > 28mm is wider that most P&S, so how it works for indoor shots when comes to > group of people around the table? Still not wide at all, just 'normal'. You can get a 24mm f/2.8 for $270 plus a 50mm f/1.8 for under $100.
Wilba - 17 Dec 2007 08:08 GMT >> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > > I get to answer this question at least once a week and the answer is > always the same. The Canon 28-135 IS. OK. What would be your second lens, to cover the wide end on a 1.6x sensor?
Annika1980 - 17 Dec 2007 17:43 GMT > >> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > > > I get to answer this question at least once a week and the answer is > > always the same. The Canon 28-135 IS. > > OK. What would be your second lens, to cover the wide end on a 1.6x sensor? My wide lens is the 17-40 f/4L, but that's a bit above his $500 cutoff. Like Steven Wright says, "You can't have everything .... where would you put it?"
Wilba - 18 Dec 2007 01:32 GMT >>>> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > My wide lens is the 17-40 f/4L, but that's a bit above his $500 > cutoff. Mine too. :-)
> Like Steven Wright says, "You can't have everything .... where would > you put it?" Everywhere?
Scott W - 18 Dec 2007 01:58 GMT >> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? >> thanks [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Here's a shot I took with mine in the McDonalds parking lot on Maui. > http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/36264486/original Ok, a very nice lens, but who would go to McDonalds on Hawaii?
Scott
Annika1980 - 18 Dec 2007 02:20 GMT > > Here's a shot I took with mine in the McDonalds parking lot on Maui. > >http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/36264486/original > > Ok, a very nice lens, but who would go to McDonalds on Hawaii? Kinda gives new meaning to the word "homesick."
Of course the correct answer to your question is, "Someone who had to pee."
Robert Coe - 21 Dec 2007 13:15 GMT : >> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? : >> thanks [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] : > http://www.pbase.com/bret/image/36264486/original : Ok, a very nice lens, but who would go to McDonalds on Hawaii? When I was there (it was many years ago, but some things never change), the rental car company gave us coupons for McDonald's. The kids liked it and the coupons made it cheap, so that's where we ate lunch most days.
Bob
Steve Dell - 17 Dec 2007 13:16 GMT You could use the Tamron 18-250 or the 28-75. The latter one is exceptionally sharp.
Steve
> There is my story of my SLR camera > I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > thanks Tony Graber - 18 Dec 2007 23:48 GMT I have the Tamron 18-250 as a walking around lense with my Rebel XTi. I really like the pictures taken with it. I also have the Canon IS 28-135 and like that also. While the Tamron does not have IS, I find that I like the Tamron better when traveling. But, that is just my humble opinion. I have no complaints about the Canon IS 28-135, either. The Canon is probably a little better in low light when my tripod is not handy.
Tony
P.S. I have taken some really good pictures with the kit lense (Canon 18- 55). It was a really good lense to learn with, for me, that is.
> You could use the Tamron 18-250 or the 28-75. The latter one is > exceptionally sharp. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would >> be? thanks Wolfgang Weisselberg - 17 Dec 2007 16:18 GMT > I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for new > lens I basically got stuck with unused equipment for one year. I don't like > much pictures made with this lens. Can you tell us why you don't like the pictures? What's wrong with them?
> If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? Probably the Canon 50mm f/1.4.
Does that help you? No? Then tell us what you are missing with the 18-55mm.
-Wolfgang
jazu - 19 Dec 2007 04:28 GMT >> I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for >> new [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Can you tell us why you don't like the pictures? What's > wrong with them? They look to me too soft. I don't like to sharp it in PC3. Most people complain about lens kit. Maybe they don't know how to work with them (including myself) Anyone have good tips how to get the best from kit?
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 20 Dec 2007 02:48 GMT >> Can you tell us why you don't like the pictures? What's >> wrong with them?
> They look to me too soft. Stop down 1 or 2 stops. Make sure you focus correctly. Use a faster exposure time. (=> more light!) Set ISO to no higher than 400 for best sharpness. Increase ISO however before accepting too slow exposure times. If in doubt, use a *good* tripod. Make sure that object movement doesn't cause blur --- many sports want 1/500s, 1/1000s or faster. Make doubly sure the AF latches onto the _relevant_ part of the image --- the AF may be sensitive to areas about 9 times as large as the central AF spot marker (i.e. "copy" the AF spot marker to directly above, below, left and right of the marker in the viewfinder, and make sure nothing there is of stronger contrast or closer).[1] With portraits, try to focus on the pupil of the closer eye. If possible, decouple the AF function from the shutter release. It really helps, but takes getting used to. If critical focus is important and the AF is in "One Shot" mode, trigger the AF more than once. Remember that with a lens slower than f/2.8 Canon's AF just guarantees that the focus point will be within the allowably circle of confusion (as defined by Canon) of the wide-open lens. The CoC is larger than one pixel! You may need to resort to manual focussing and focus bracketing. Use a lens screen. Not only does it protect the lens from quite some abuse, it also strongly increases contrast and image quality by keeping strong lights away from the front element. If necessary, use your hand or some other object to keep your front element in the shadow (unless the sun is in the frame, then you cannot do much about it). Do _not_ use an UV filter or protective filter of any kind for "protection" unless your shooting conditions include sand, salt water (spray), mud spray, or similar. Even high quality, expensive filters can degrade image quality, cheap filters often degrade the quality lots. (Note: if you are using a filter for effect, i.e. gray filter, polarizing filter, etc. that is something else.) Make sure you expose your shots correctly. Look at the histogram and adjust exposure if necessary. Don't judge the sharpness exclusively on the 100% view, unless you want to print, present or beam the image _really_ _really_ huge. Your monitor has probably 75-100 DPI, thus an 8MPix (3504 x 2336) image at 100% would be 35x23 to 47x31 inches (98x58 to 119x79 cm) at that magnification. (And even at barn door size most people aren't going to get out the loupe looking for pixels.)
Look at 1200x1800 for 300DPI 4x6 inch prints --- and that's taking a loupe to them. I doubt most people you show the shots to have more than 1200x1600 on their monitors, either.
> I don't like to sharp it in PC3. Set the in-camera sharpening and contrast higher, or accept that you _have_ to sharpen (increace acutancy) digital images. (You do the same when developing film, but there it is a chemical process, not a step you think about.)
Be aware that point & shoot digital cameras oversharpen and deliver very contrasty images. They look "sharper" at first glance, but ugly on the second glance.
Please show examples where you feel the image is not sharp. Scale down the full image and show 100% ("pixel for pixel") crops of areas where you think it's most noticeable. Make sure the EXIF data is not lost, as it is important to understand and evaluate the conditions of the shots.
-Wolfgang
[1] This is due to the facts that the screen cannot be 100% aligned to the AF (which is in the camera bottom, btw.) and that the active area of the AF cannot be too small.
jazu - 23 Dec 2007 03:33 GMT > Then tell us what you are missing with the 18-55mm. To answer that question please see my pics http://www.trekearth.com/members/jazu/photos/ and be a judge for yourself. Maybe they are not that bad. (I hope)
and look at work of this man: http://www.trekearth.com/members/john_c/photos/ John uses 17-85mm IS and better model of camera (20D). His landscaping pictures looks brilliant. Is that lens or PCS edition? I don't know. I know I'd like to get similar effects.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 23 Dec 2007 19:06 GMT >> Then tell us what you are missing with the 18-55mm.
> To answer that question please see my pics > http://www.trekearth.com/members/jazu/photos/ > and be a judge for yourself. Maybe they are not that bad. (I hope) I don't see what your problem with the 18-55mm is.
> and look at work of this man: > http://www.trekearth.com/members/john_c/photos/ > John uses 17-85mm IS and better model of camera (20D). His landscaping > pictures looks brilliant. > Is that lens or PCS edition? I don't know. I know I'd like to get similar > effects. You are asking "What brush and colours did Michelangelo use to make such images?" assuming with the same tools you can, too.
The answer, unfortunately, is not "you lack the tools", but "you need more experience".
-Wolfgang
jazu - 24 Dec 2007 01:53 GMT >> http://www.trekearth.com/members/jazu/photos/ >> and be a judge for yourself. Maybe they are not that bad. (I hope) > > I don't see what your problem with the 18-55mm is. I have too much to manipulate in photoshop to get such effect. Most of my pictures have been sharpened. Dou you think that great images by others on Trekearth.com are sharpened on computer?
>> and look at work of this man: >> http://www.trekearth.com/members/john_c/photos/ [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > You are asking "What brush and colours did Michelangelo use to > make such images?" assuming with the same tools you can, too. I don't see analogy here. I know what equipment has been used by the other guy and I don't have the same tools like him.
> The answer, unfortunately, is not "you lack the tools", but > "you need more experience". I agree with you here. How to get more or rather better experience? To take some curses, look on internet, trial and error method with your own work? Did I just answered my question? :)
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 24 Dec 2007 19:17 GMT >>> http://www.trekearth.com/members/jazu/photos/ >>> and be a judge for yourself. Maybe they are not that bad. (I hope)
>> I don't see what your problem with the 18-55mm is.
> I have too much to manipulate in photoshop to get such effect. > Most of my pictures have been sharpened. So? _All_ of my shots get sharpened, except for some from my Point&Shoot cameras. On the other hand, i sharpen conservatively: not "jumps into your eyes", rather "almost subliminal effect".
As I said --- either get used to it, or tell your camera to sharpen the JPEGs stronger. The XT allows you to change the settings.
> Dou you think that great images by others on Trekearth.com are sharpened on > computer? Of course.
They'll be white balanced, sharpened, contrast balanced, highlight corrected (where needed), exposure corrected (where needed), shadows pushed up as needed, saturation improved, sharpened, lens corrected as needed, de-noised as needed, etc.
Most of these tasks can be done, at least to some amount, in-camera and during shooting e.g. by setting the correct white balance manually, setting a good in-camera sharpening and contrast courve, not overexposing (unless done for effect), correcting exposure looking at the histogramm (or the light meter), lighting darker parts with flash(es) or reflectors, setting sufficient in-camera saturation for the JPEGs, using lenses that don't distort visibly, using low ISO settings, using shift lenses instead of tilting up the film plane for architecture ...
>>> and look at work of this man: >>> http://www.trekearth.com/members/john_c/photos/ >>> John uses 17-85mm IS and better model of camera (20D). His landscaping >>> pictures looks brilliant. >>> Is that lens or PCS edition? I don't know. I know I'd like to get similar >>> effects.
>> You are asking "What brush and colours did Michelangelo use to >> make such images?" assuming with the same tools you can, too.
> I don't see analogy here. I know what equipment has been used by the other > guy and I don't have the same tools like him. I think you will find that even with his tools you won't be noticably better than you are right now.
I went through your treckearth.com gallery and looked at your Canon 350D Exif data (and must say that I've seen sites that present that data better): - 36 images seen, not all had all data: - exposure: - 1/50s - 1/800s, - average: 1/250s, - medium: 1/200s, - most common: 1/200s - 90% range: 1/60s - 1/500s (top/bottom 5% off) - 80% range: 1/100s - 1/500s (top/bottom 10% off) - 50% range: 1/160s - 1/250s (only middle 50%) - aperture: - f/3.5 - f/29 - average: f/8.3 - medium: f/9 - most common: f/8 - 90% range: f/4.5 - f/11 - 80% range: f/6.3 - f/11 - 50% range: f/7.1 - f/10 - ISO settings: - 100 - 1600 - average: 226 - medium: 100 - most common: 100 - 90% range: 100 - 400 - 80% range: 100 - 400 - 50% range: 100 - 200 - focal length: - 18mm - 55mm - average: 26,9mm - medium: 18mm - most common: 18mm - 90% range: 18mm - 48mm - 80% range: 18mm - 43mm - 50% range: 18mm - 34mm
That tells me: - You shoot commonly rarely slower than easily hand-holdable speeds. - you very rarely shoot wide open, mostly in the f/6-f/11 range --- which means you are not limited by the speed of the lens, but by diffraction (which starts to be a real factor after f/11). - You commonly shoot ISO 100 and very rarely over ISO 400, no limit there (except for needing the light to pull off the fast exposure times and the stopped down lens). - You rarely use the upper end of the focal length, but very often hit the bottom (18mm).
The 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS will give you: - more tele (which you don't use) - IS (which you don't need for the shots you present) - a longer(!) minimum focus distance (which may not matter much) - better haptic (feels better/more qualitative) - a _slightly_ wider angle of view (which would be welcome) - different (stronger) distortions at 18mm (though there are tools to correct that in post processing)
Any increase in sharpness would be on the small side at your preferred apertures, which are "the best" for most lenses anyhow --- and won't show up at the reduced sizes used on treckearth.com.
However, I do notice that you constantly bump into the 18mm short end. You might want to have a look into the 10-22mm from Canon or similar offerings from other lens makers. These remove the "18mm" limit you are having (half your shots are 'stuck' at 18mm!) and thus give you a tool you actually use.
>> The answer, unfortunately, is not "you lack the tools", but >> "you need more experience".
> I agree with you here. How to get more or rather better experience? Do more shooting. Look critically at your and other peoples' photos. Shoot more pictures. Find out what works, and why it works. Shoot pictures differently. Go to places where you get harsh, but real critique rather than shoulder thumping. Go out and use your camera.
> To take > some curses, look on internet, trial and error method with your own work? > Did I just answered my question? :) Yes.
-Wolfgang
jazu - 29 Dec 2007 07:35 GMT > it works. Shoot pictures differently. Go to places where > you get harsh, but real critique rather than shoulder > thumping. What site would you recommend?
default - 25 Dec 2007 02:03 GMT > To answer that question please see my pics > http://www.trekearth.com/members/jazu/photos/ [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Is that lens or PCS edition? I don't know. I know I'd like to get similar > effects. Your pictures are quite good. John's camera and lens will take virtually indistinguishable pictures from yours when used with the same settings. If you two switched cameras, yours and his pictures would look exactly the same. The 18-55mm has a bunch of advantages over the 17-85 including less vignetting, larger aperture at the wide end, less barrel distortion when wide, less chromatic aberration, and much closer focusing.
If you want your pictures to look like his, then expose a bit darker, turn the colour saturation up and be more careful in your post processing. Some of the sharpening and/or resizing was done poorly on yours. Also watch out for time of day differences. John looks for better lighting. You will also learn to recognize good light in time. Try early in the morning or later in the afternoon. Not every day even has good light.
Pictures like the cannon were taken when the light was good but also very heavy sharpening has been applied to bring out the surface texture probably applied with layer masks to avoid applying it to the edges and causing halos and noise in the sky. You can learn these techniques too.
Fred Anonymous - 17 Dec 2007 19:15 GMT > There is my story of my SLR camera > I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > thanks Hello Jazu.
You pose a nice question.
If I couldn't afford new Canon lenses then I would look at second-hand Canon lenses and then Tamron lenses. In a UK magazine test of fixed-length lenses the Tamron 90mm macro outperformed the Sigma 105mm.
I avoid Sigma wherever possible - because Sigma do not pay for the licence to the EOS lens mount their lenses aren't always forward compatible. A new Sigma lens bought to-day might not work with a Canon EOS body you buy next year. Had this with a friend's Sigma 500mm which would not work with her EOS 30 film camera in all the modes.
Personally - see what you can find second-hand. Here in the UK there are a lot of bargains in little-used second-hand Canon lenses.
Good hunting.
Ian, Nottingham, UK.
jazu - 19 Dec 2007 08:34 GMT I just ordered Sigma 18-200 DC About $300, so I'm below my budget. I hope I wont regret this purchase
> There is my story of my SLR camera > I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > thanks Tony Polson - 19 Dec 2007 13:22 GMT >I just ordered Sigma 18-200 DC >About $300, so I'm below my budget. >I hope I wont regret this purchase No-one ever regrets buying a Sigma lens. Oh no.
Mr. Strat - 19 Dec 2007 17:22 GMT > I just ordered Sigma 18-200 DC > About $300, so I'm below my budget. > I hope I wont regret this purchase The sting of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 20 Dec 2007 02:52 GMT > The sting of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price > is forgotten. With a _cheap_ (!= "good value for money") object you will be happy once ... when you pay. You might cry when using it, though. Every time.
With a well-researched and choosen object of good quality (which may be dear or very inexpensive) you may cry when paying. Once. But using it should be a joy.
-Wolfgang
jean - 20 Dec 2007 05:57 GMT >> The sting of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price >> is forgotten. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > may be dear or very inexpensive) you may cry when paying. Once. > But using it should be a joy. In fact, with a cheap lens you are happy TWICE, once when you pay for it and once more when you get rid of it.
Jean
jazu - 21 Dec 2007 02:15 GMT > In fact, with a cheap lens you are happy TWICE, once when you pay for it > and once more when you get rid of it. Is Sigma 18-200 really sooo bad?
jean - 21 Dec 2007 04:26 GMT >> In fact, with a cheap lens you are happy TWICE, once when you pay for it >> and once more when you get rid of it. >> > Is Sigma 18-200 really sooo bad? Is a Rolls Royce better than Ford Focus? Both will get you to your destination but one will hold it's value longer, one will get you there in a quieter environment, one is more prestigious...
If you want a lens that focuses fast, the Sigma may not do it as fast as a Canon L lens. If you want a picture with less distortion, the Sigma may not be as sharp as a Canon L lens
Sure it's more expensive, but buying a cheaper lens first and then getting a top of the line lens will end up costing more than buying the best lens from day 1.
Jean
PS the other camera makers also have pro lenses and they are all better than third party lens makers.
jazu - 23 Dec 2007 03:23 GMT > In fact, with a cheap lens you are happy TWICE, once when you pay for it > and once more when you get rid of it. Three perhabs. When you buy another after getting rid of.
jazu - 22 Dec 2007 21:58 GMT >> I just ordered Sigma 18-200 DC >> About $300, so I'm below my budget. >> I hope I wont regret this purchase > > The sting of low quality remains long after the sweetness of low price > is forgotten. That a great thought. Apply for any aspect of life. I think maybe I should take my first choice rather. Canon 17-85mm IS. I'll try if I wont like sigma, I will replace for 17-85.
dwight - 19 Dec 2007 18:46 GMT > There is my story of my SLR camera > I bought last xmass Canon XT with kit lens 18-55. Not having budget for [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > If you had $500 budget and just one lens to choose, what that would be? > thanks As a fatter of mact, I am almost certain that I will not be getting the Christmas present I'd really like, so I'm going to have to order one shortly afterwards.
My next lens it that Canon 100mm macro (which also happens to be in your price range). I rented it for a week or so last year and loved it. (See http://www.tfrog93.com/digitals/lenses/100mm/100mm.htm for my results.) I'll have my very own for New Year's.
It's priced under $500 and currently has an added instant rebate of $35.00.
dwight
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