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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2004

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Sigma vs. Tamron for EOS?

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you know who maybe - 07 Dec 2004 18:58 GMT
Since that last thread was so popular ;-)

In general is Tamron glass better, worse or the same as Sigma?

I've never tried any Tamron lenses and was considering trying a 28-75 f/2.8
or even the 28-300 since it seems the magazines rate them so highly (not too
bad on Fred Miranda dot com, too).
Zach - 07 Dec 2004 20:37 GMT
> Since that last thread was so popular ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or even the 28-300 since it seems the magazines rate them so highly (not too
> bad on Fred Miranda dot com, too).

I can't comment on the Sigma lenses (I've never owned one but had used
one or two a long time ago); I've used Tamron lenses on both film and
digital and they are absolutely terrific.  I currently have the 28-300,
the 19-35 and 24-135 and couldn't be more pleased with the results.  I'm
looking to buy the 90mm portrait/macro after my funds start building
back up a bit ;-).  I owned the "film" version of it about 18 years ago
and it was one of the best pieces of glass in my arsenal.  You can't go
wrong with Tamron glass but as I said earlier, I haven't used Sigma in
many years but I was still more impressed with Tamron back then.  Don't
really know what their [Sigma's] quality is like now.

By the way, all are currently being used on a Canon 20D.

Zach
you know who maybe - 07 Dec 2004 20:47 GMT
>> Since that last thread was so popular ;-)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> By the way, all are currently being used on a Canon 20D.

Of my L glass (17-40, 70-200, 100-400) I've got nothing faster than f/4
except a Sigma 15mm fisheye which is pretty soft at max aperture f/2.8 so I
was wondering if the Tamron was like the Sigma in that it's not very good at
f/2.8, and a general comparison of the company and their standards.

Thanks
Zach - 07 Dec 2004 21:13 GMT
>>>Since that last thread was so popular ;-)
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Thanks

The only [Tamron] lens I've had at 2.8 was the 90mm and it was tack
sharp at any aperture.  The ones I own now are either 3.5 or 4.0 but
still just as sharp although the view is slightly dimmer than with 2.8
on down (of course, that'll be the scenario w/ any make of lens).  I
don't quite understand what you mean about the general comparison of the
company and their standards.  I've never had a problem with any lens
from them either now or from 18 years ago (I just took up photography
again after that time lapse) so I can't speak for customer service or
other entities within the company.  You can go to their web site to find
out more about them and what their business practices may entail.
http://www.tamron.com/

Zach
Alan Browne - 07 Dec 2004 23:01 GMT
> The only [Tamron] lens I've had at 2.8 was the 90mm and it was tack
> sharp at any aperture.

I suggest you photograph your tacks nearer to the center than the edges of the
frame:
http://www.photodo.com/pix/lens/mtf/TASPAF9028MACR.gif

and indeed it is sharper closed down a couple/few stops... for sharper tacks.

(Or get a real tack shooter:
http://www.photodo.com/pix/lens/mtf/MIAF10028MACR.gif
from Minolta (100 f/2.8 macro)).

I'll grant that the Tamron probably has slightly smoother out of focus
background properties than the Minolta.

Cheers,
Alan.

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you know who maybe - 07 Dec 2004 23:15 GMT
>> The only [Tamron] lens I've had at 2.8 was the 90mm and it was tack sharp
>> at any aperture.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan.

I've got to learn to read these someday. Lower scores are better?
Alan Browne - 07 Dec 2004 23:50 GMT
> I've got to learn to read these someday. Lower scores are better?

er, no, http://www.photodo.com/art/Unde7.shtml

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Skip M - 08 Dec 2004 01:07 GMT
>> The only [Tamron] lens I've had at 2.8 was the 90mm and it was tack sharp
>> at any aperture.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan.

Could be a little problematic getting that Minolta lens to fit on his Canon
camera...<G>

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Alan Browne - 08 Dec 2004 16:13 GMT
> Could be a little problematic getting that Minolta lens to fit on his Canon
> camera...<G>

I was referring to the sharpness, not the applicability.  Plugging Minolta
again... what's the matter with me!?

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Alan Browne - 07 Dec 2004 21:24 GMT
> Since that last thread was so popular ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or even the 28-300 since it seems the magazines rate them so highly (not too
> bad on Fred Miranda dot com, too).

My take on it is that Sigma make a lot of lens models, and Tamron fewer.  Sigma
have a few decent lenses; Tamron have a higher % of decent lenses.

Another way to say it is if looking for a third party lens, I would examine
Tokina and Tamron lenses before looking at the equivalent Sigma and I'd make
sure the Sigma was better before selecting it over the other two.

The 28-75 f/2.8 is likely to perform close to the 28-70 f/2.8 from Canon (which
is a fine lens, and should be at over $1100).  The Canon is better (and 3x the
price).

The 28-300 is a stay away lens except perhaps for travel where you want memories
but not necessarily the sharpest phots.  (I did see a travelogue slide
presentation done with a 28-300 (Sigma or Tamron) and I was impressed.  But the
photographer was much above average.)

Were I you, I'd consider something with more range than the 28-75 and better
optics than the 28-300 such as the Canon 28-135 IS.

Cheers,
Alan

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Chuck - 08 Dec 2004 20:04 GMT
this is an anti Sigma group, you should go ask on dpreview.com forums
instead.

> Since that last thread was so popular ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or even the 28-300 since it seems the magazines rate them so highly (not too
> bad on Fred Miranda dot com, too).
Alan Browne - 08 Dec 2004 20:35 GMT
> this is an anti Sigma group, you should go ask on dpreview.com forums
> instead.

Compared to some people, not at all...

http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF

Cheers,
Alan

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Juergen . - 08 Dec 2004 23:08 GMT
> http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF

No.
Alan Browne - 09 Dec 2004 00:10 GMT
>>http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
>>Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF
>
> No.

Then what is it chief?

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Juergen . - 09 Dec 2004 00:15 GMT
> >>http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> >>Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF
> > No.
> Then what is it chief?

28-70/2,8 EX.

Hugh!  ;-)
Alan Browne - 09 Dec 2004 16:48 GMT
>>>>http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
>>>>Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> 28-70/2,8 EX.

See Chuck's posts.  I believe the lens reffered to is the lens that gets "shot".
 I may be wrong, trying to id a lens from its look via the Sigma webpage is not
that easy.

Cheers,
Alan

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Juergen . - 09 Dec 2004 19:19 GMT
> >>>>http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> >>>>Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> I may be wrong, trying to id a lens from its look
> via the Sigma webpage is not that easy.

The lens pictured at
http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
is a Sigma EX 2,8/28-70. Period.

Juergen
Alan Browne - 09 Dec 2004 20:06 GMT
> The lens pictured at
> http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> is a Sigma EX 2,8/28-70. Period.

Say what it is (or you believe it is) without the condescending "period" crap.

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Juergen . - 09 Dec 2004 20:09 GMT
> > The lens pictured at
> > http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> > is a Sigma EX 2,8/28-70. Period.
> Say what it is (or you believe it is) without the condescending "period" crap.

Are you drunken or what??

Juergen


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Alan Browne - 09 Dec 2004 20:14 GMT
> Are you drunken or what??

Bye.  It is clear you're a troll.

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Juergen . - 09 Dec 2004 22:17 GMT
> > Are you drunken or what??
> Bye.  It is clear you're a troll.

Good joke - the troll is you:
The lens pictured at
http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
is a Sigma EX 2,8/28-70 -
no matter what you are blabbering.

Juergen
Alan Browne - 09 Dec 2004 23:01 GMT
>>>Are you drunken or what??
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> is a Sigma EX 2,8/28-70 -
> no matter what you are blabbering.

Take a deep breath (and optionally remove whatever large object is lodged in
your a.s).  I never stated absolutely what the lens was, just that it looked
like a particular lens on the Sigma website.  As one of the lenses on D.N's site
is listed as the 15-30 I assumed it was that lens.
http://www.davenitsche.com/equipment.htm

Okay?  Clear 'nuff chief?

Bye.

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Juergen . - 10 Dec 2004 01:52 GMT
> Take a deep breath (and optionally remove whatever
> large object is lodged in your a.s).

I overread that - such expressions are too far
below my standard.

> I never stated absolutely what the lens was, just that it looked
> like a particular lens on the Sigma website.  As one of the lenses on D.N's site
> is listed as the 15-30 I assumed it was that lens.
> http://www.davenitsche.com/equipment.htm
> Okay?  Clear 'nuff chief?

It's completely simple:
Two of my lenses are the Sigma 15-30 and the
28-70/2,8 EX so I know what they look like
and I do not have to look on a Sigma website
to identify them:
The 15-30 not only is _much_ bigger, but it
also has no bajonet mount for a sunshade, but
a non-removable sunshade and an extremely
round front glass element (bulged) so it looks
_very_ different to the pictured 28-70 which
clearly has a sunshade bajonet mount and a
flat front glass element.

So the lens pictured in
http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
is a 28-70/2,8 EX - it is not metioned at
http://www.davenitsche.com/equipment.htm
where the 15-30 is mentioned.

Juergen
Alan Browne - 10 Dec 2004 03:16 GMT
> where the 15-30 is mentioned.

You still don't get it.  From the art photo and the little phots on the sigma
site it is not possible to differentiate well.  It was a guess not a determination.

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Chuck - 10 Dec 2004 04:04 GMT
> > where the 15-30 is mentioned.
>
> You still don't get it.  From the art photo and the little phots on the sigma
> site it is not possible to differentiate well.  It was a guess not a determination

cmon, just  ask to the guy damn it instead of fighting
Greg Evans - 10 Dec 2004 12:52 GMT
>> You still don't get it.  From the art photo and the little phots on
>> the sigma site it is not possible to differentiate well.  It was a
>> guess not a determination
>
> cmon, just  ask to the guy damn it instead of fighting

Nah, that'd be like stopping to ask directions.  It ain't manly.
Juergen . - 10 Dec 2004 04:09 GMT
> > where the 15-30 is mentioned.
> You still don't get it.  From the art photo and the
> little phots on the sigma site it is not possible to
> differentiate well.  It was a guess not a determination.

I have understood _you_ made a wrong guess -
but I really do _not_ understand why you
make all the fuss about me and my positive
identification of the lens pictured at
http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656:

A) You posted
> http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF

B) I answered
> No.
Because I can see _clearly and without ANY doubt_
the lens on http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
is NOT a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF.
As explained in a later answer it is VERY VERY easy
to see the pictured lens is NOT a 15-30 - to see if
it is an 28-70 or another lens is a much more difficult.

C) Then you asked a bit aggressively
> Then what is it chief?

D) I replied then
> 28-70/2,8 EX.
> Hugh!  ;-)
And YES, _I_ can _clearly_ see it is an 28-70/2,8 EX

E) you then wrote
> See Chuck's posts.
I am NOT interested in any of Chuck's post,
I simply wrote your assumption
> http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF
is wrong - not more, not less, and that in short and
friendly
> No.

You continued
> I may be wrong, trying to id a lens from its look via the
> Sigma webpage is not that easy.
As I told you in a later answer I do NOT need any Sigma
website to identify the 28-70/2,8 EX because I know very
well how it looks, so your
> I may be wrong, trying to id a lens from its look via the
> Sigma webpage is not that easy.
is _completely_ irrelevant to me as I can _positively_
identify the lens at
http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
as Sigma 28-70/2,8 EX.

Ok, that is already too many posts about your
> http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656
> Looks like a Sigma 15-30mm f3.5-4.5 EX Aspherical DG DF

Juergen
Alan Browne - 10 Dec 2004 16:09 GMT
> B) I answered
>
>>No.

And this is precisely where the problem lies chief.  This is usenet.  It is here
for the most part to exchange information.  Simply stating "no" without stating
what it really is, is rude and contrary to the spirit of why people discuss
things on usenet.

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Juergen . - 10 Dec 2004 21:33 GMT
> > B) I answered
> >>No.
> And this is precisely where the problem lies chief.

Here is your aggressive tone again...

>  This is usenet.  It is here
> for the most part to exchange information.
> Simply stating "no" without stating
> what it really is, is rude and contrary to
> the spirit of why people discuss
> things on usenet.

Besides the fact I answered later
> 28-70/2,8 EX.
you have some severe problems, one of it being
talking about _spirit_ and lack of it with others
but you yourself writing things like
> (and optionally remove whatever large object is
> lodged in your a.s).

So it is clear you have _severe_ personal problems
and as this is a photographic group it's EOD here -
you obviously need professional help by a psychiatrist.

Juergen
Alan Browne - 10 Dec 2004 22:02 GMT
>>>B) I answered
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Here is your aggressive tone again...

There is nothing more agressive than simply answering "no" without backing it up
with why you said "no".

Bye Chief.

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Chuck - 08 Dec 2004 23:49 GMT
from the photographer:

From: Dave Nitsche Date: 07-Oct-2004 11:41
With me the simplest answer is usually the answer. I dropped my lens and
shattered the back elements. So I took a 12" spike and broke the front
element. I then cut an arrow in two and placed it in the lens. Used tissues
to stick the arrow into the back element to support is.

I really loved that lens. Thanks for looking... Dave

http://www.pbase.com/davenit/image/34335656

bottom of the page
Ryadia - 09 Dec 2004 21:06 GMT
> from the photographer:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> bottom of the page

Interesting lens that one. Some of the sharpest (digital) photos I have ever
enlarged to 24"x36" were taken with one of these lenses on a 10D. I sold the
lens with the camera when I bought the 20D. A few days later, I bought a 24
~ 70 f2.8 Sigma lens. I am yet to become as close to the new one as I was to
the old one... Camera and lens!

The Camera is unreliable in the extreme and could itself be responsible for
soft (er) images. The DOF focus is spot on and very sharp pictures obtained
by using a remote shutter release and mirror up function at f 2.8 and about
24" distance. I'm inclined to think the noisy 20D is producing mirror-slap
shocks which result in vibration at shutter speeds under 1/30th and
subsequently soft pictures.

I also have a Sigma 120 ~300 f2.8 which I use with a 2x Extender (600mm f4)
and a Sigma 100~300 f4 lens. I highly recommend the EX DG Sigma lens models
over and above Tamrons. The difference between Canon 'L' series lenses and
Sigma EX DG lenses is basically in the way the focus and zoom works. The
Sigma's have a rougher focus motor which smooths out with use. The zoom
often gets stiff as it realigns elements where the Canon is smooth from new.
Otherwise...

No one can tell which photos I take with a 'L' series lens and which I take
with the Sigma lenses. I simply couldn't afford a 600 mm lens of the quality
of my 120~300 with a 2x extender if I had to buy a Canon lens. As it is I
have a problem with the cost of filters for it! Every Tamron I used on my
old 35mm Nikon was bad in the extreme. They may have gotten better recently
but if they have, no one is telling anyone.

Doug
Randall Ainsworth - 10 Dec 2004 03:26 GMT
> The Camera is unreliable in the extreme and could itself be responsible for
> soft (er) images. The DOF focus is spot on and very sharp pictures obtained
> by using a remote shutter release and mirror up function at f 2.8 and about
> 24" distance. I'm inclined to think the noisy 20D is producing mirror-slap
> shocks which result in vibration at shutter speeds under 1/30th and
> subsequently soft pictures.

Noisy 20D?  You're still an imbecile.
Chuck - 10 Dec 2004 03:59 GMT
noise on the 20d ? mmm , first time I read this. Why are you writing this ?
Randall Ainsworth - 10 Dec 2004 04:55 GMT
> noise on the 20d ? mmm , first time I read this. Why are you writing this ?

They're another Sigma shill.  Imagine that...stand up for a mediocre
and expensive 3.42MP camera and call the 20D noisy! What a retard!
JPS@no.komm - 30 Dec 2004 03:03 GMT
>They're another Sigma shill.  Imagine that...stand up for a mediocre
>and expensive 3.42MP camera and call the 20D noisy! What a retard!

The 20D makes more noise when you take a picture than the 10D.  That's a
fact.

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Randall Ainsworth - 30 Dec 2004 04:36 GMT
> The 20D makes more noise when you take a picture than the 10D.  That's a
> fact.

And my Hasselblads make more noise than the two of them put
together...but I did weddings with them for 20+ years and nobody
complained.  Jeez!
Ryadia - 30 Dec 2004 09:38 GMT
> > The 20D makes more noise when you take a picture than the 10D.  That's a
> > fact.
>
> And my Hasselblads make more noise than the two of them put
> together...but I did weddings with them for 20+ years and nobody
> complained.  Jeez!

So tell us Randall... Did you ever get the eye from a priest when, in the
middle of the vows you took a candid shot in the church? Or what about using
a big Sunpac flash to light up the whole church from the bell tower in the
middle of the crucial moment and had them all look up at you?

Doug
Randall Ainsworth - 30 Dec 2004 14:05 GMT
> So tell us Randall... Did you ever get the eye from a priest when, in the
> middle of the vows you took a candid shot in the church? Or what about using
> a big Sunpac flash to light up the whole church from the bell tower in the
> middle of the crucial moment and had them all look up at you?

I never had any minister give me the evil eye because I was using a
Hasselblad.
During the ceremony I always shot available light from the back of the
church so as not to disturb the ceremony. You can cover up the mirror
lockup by coughing.
Never used Sunpac (cheap junk) and never used flash during the
ceremony. Remember, I was a professional.
Ryadia - 30 Dec 2004 20:51 GMT
> Never used Sunpac (cheap junk) and never used flash during the
> ceremony. Remember, I was a professional.

SO was the fellow who did that on my wedding and charged me $2k in the
process!

Doug
Randall Ainsworth - 31 Dec 2004 02:13 GMT
> > Never used Sunpac (cheap junk) and never used flash during the
> > ceremony. Remember, I was a professional.
>
> SO was the fellow who did that on my wedding and charged me $2k in the
> process!

If I were to do them again I wouldn't touch a wedding for under $1,000.
Ryadia - 10 Dec 2004 22:29 GMT
> noise on the 20d ? mmm , first time I read this. Why are you writing this ?

The mirror slap on my 20Ds is louder than from a EOS3 or 10D... This makes a
noisey 20D, yes?
Skip M - 10 Dec 2004 22:42 GMT
>> noise on the 20d ? mmm , first time I read this. Why are you writing this
> ?
>>
> The mirror slap on my 20Ds is louder than from a EOS3 or 10D... This makes
> a
> noisey 20D, yes?

If that mirror slap is louder than your EOS3, you'd better have it checked!
Mine is quieter than my 1n, which is only slightly louder than your 3, and
close to my A2, which is much quieter than your 3.  It is louder than my
wife's 10D, though, but quieter than her Elan II.
I never noticed how loud the 20D was, however, until my wife fired away
during a "moment of silence" at a wedding.  We had, ahem, a talk about
timing! <G>  It isn't so much loud as sharp, I think.

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Alan Browne - 11 Dec 2004 23:12 GMT
> If that mirror slap is louder than your EOS3, you'd better have it checked!
> Mine is quieter than my 1n, which is only slightly louder than your 3, and
> close to my A2, which is much quieter than your 3.  It is louder than my
> wife's 10D, though, but quieter than her Elan II.

ROTFLMAO!  (Yes, I realize you're serious.)

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Skip M - 11 Dec 2004 23:41 GMT
?  Why was that funny?  The Elan II is much louder than the 7, which is also
much quieter than the old A2, or any of the digital bodies, including the
10.

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>
>> If that mirror slap is louder than your EOS3, you'd better have it
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> ROTFLMAO!  (Yes, I realize you're serious.)
Alan Browne - 12 Dec 2004 01:10 GMT
> ?  Why was that funny?  The Elan II is much louder than the 7, which is also
> much quieter than the old A2, or any of the digital bodies, including the
> 10.

I don't doubt it, it's just the way you wrote that that struck me as very funny.

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Skip M - 12 Dec 2004 18:15 GMT
>> ?  Why was that funny?  The Elan II is much louder than the 7, which is
>> also much quieter than the old A2, or any of the digital bodies,
>> including the 10.
>
> I don't doubt it, it's just the way you wrote that that struck me as very
> funny.

After I thought about it, it did have a sort of "the spider that swallowed
the fly" quality about it.  <G>

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Chuck - 13 Dec 2004 04:17 GMT
> > noise on the 20d ? mmm , first time I read this. Why are you writing this
> ?
> >
> The mirror slap on my 20Ds is louder than from a EOS3 or 10D... This makes a
> noisey 20D, yes?

oh that kind of noise... ok , your probably right, sorry
Skip M - 30 Dec 2004 06:02 GMT
> noise on the 20d ? mmm , first time I read this. Why are you writing this
> ?

He's talking shutter noise, not image noise.  The 20D is louder than the old
10D, but not previous generation digital Canons, so that's one more point to
complain about, if complaining is your forte.

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Ron Lacey - 10 Dec 2004 14:58 GMT
>I'm inclined to think the noisy 20D is producing mirror-slap
>shocks which result in vibration at shutter speeds under 1/30th and
>subsequently soft pictures.

Noisy?  The 20D has to be the most noise free digital I've ever used.
Do you acutally know the difference between noise and soft images?
What does noise have to do with vibrations?

Ron

Ron Lacey
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David J Taylor - 10 Dec 2004 15:09 GMT
[]
> Noisy?  The 20D has to be the most noise free digital I've ever used.
> Do you acutally know the difference between noise and soft images?
> What does noise have to do with vibrations?
>
> Ron

The vibrations make acoustic noise.

David
Alan Browne - 10 Dec 2004 16:13 GMT
> Ron
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Paint Shop Pro Zero to Hero
> http://www.friendsofed.com/books/1590592387/

Wanna trim down that sig to something a little more in keeping with generally
accepted nettiquette Ron?  3-4 lines is the commonly agreed limit.

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Ron Lacey - 10 Dec 2004 21:30 GMT
>Wanna trim down that sig to something a little more in keeping with generally
>accepted nettiquette Ron?  3-4 lines is the commonly agreed limit.

Four, eight, twelve what's the difference, plaiin text takes very
little bandwidthy, my one or two posts a week aren't gonna affect
anybody's retention.

Ron

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Alan Browne - 10 Dec 2004 22:00 GMT
>>Wanna trim down that sig to something a little more in keeping with generally
>>accepted nettiquette Ron?  3-4 lines is the commonly agreed limit.
>
> Four, eight, twelve what's the difference, plaiin text takes very
> little bandwidthy, my one or two posts a week aren't gonna affect
> anybody's retention.

It affects clutter which is why it's a commonly accepted rule.  It is also a
charter rule of this NG.  You could, for instance, use more horizontal space.

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Ryadia - 10 Dec 2004 22:45 GMT
> >>Wanna trim down that sig to something a little more in keeping with generally
> >>accepted nettiquette Ron?  3-4 lines is the commonly agreed limit.

Sheez... And I thought your sig was too long!!
His must surely produce some hilarity for top posters who get the sh.ts
scrolling down through dozens on lines of irrelevant rubbish just to read a
one line, equally irrelevant comment! Ha, ha, ha. God I love Usenet!

And what about the turkeys who are so obsessed with granularity they think
any reference to noise is about the sensor noise?
Are they all deaf?
Have we gone this far away from mechanical cameras, so soon?
Can't they hear the shutter go off on a 20D like a firecracker?
Maybe they only ever shoot in heavy traffic?
And through all this foliage of  a hijacked thread there comes the Knight in
rusted armour...
*Trim your Sig, you peon*!!

Give me Bret's pictures any time!

Doug
Frank  ess - 11 Dec 2004 00:54 GMT
>>>> Wanna trim down that sig to something a little more in keeping
>>>> with generally accepted nettiquette Ron?  3-4 lines is the
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> Doug

Bret who?
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1
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Ron Lacey - 11 Dec 2004 01:17 GMT
>It affects clutter which is why it's a commonly accepted rule.

Commonly accepted by you maybe.  If you were so worried about clutter
you might consider selective quoting, your habit of quoting an entire
post in a followup far out clutters my sig.

ron

Ron Lacey
Murillo Ontario
ron@ronsfotos.com

Ron's Photos
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Alan Browne - 11 Dec 2004 23:15 GMT
>>It affects clutter which is why it's a commonly accepted rule.
>
> Commonly accepted by you maybe.  If you were so worried about clutter
> you might consider selective quoting, your habit of quoting an entire
> post in a followup far out clutters my sig.

I assure you that for the most part I snip my posts and much more dilligently
than the majority of posters.  So bugger off.

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Ron Lacey - 12 Dec 2004 02:45 GMT
>So bugger off.

Charming

Ron

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Alan Browne - 12 Dec 2004 17:19 GMT
> Charming

Hmm, 16 lines of sig for 1 line of posting.  IRMC.

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Ryadia - 10 Dec 2004 22:29 GMT
> Noisy?  The 20D has to be the most noise free digital I've ever used.
> Do you acutally know the difference between noise and soft images?
> What does noise have to do with vibrations?
>
> Ron

Noise as in the noise you hear!
Ron Lacey - 11 Dec 2004 01:15 GMT
>Noise as in the noise you hear!

Ahh okay, thought you were talking about digital noise<g>.

Ron

Ron Lacey
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Randall Ainsworth - 11 Dec 2004 03:46 GMT
> Noise as in the noise you hear!

I haven't had the pleasure to see/hold/try a 20D yet, but my 10D is
much quieter than 35mm SLRs and certainly quieter than my Hasselblads
and the RB & Pentax 6x7I used to own.
Voice Only - 11 Dec 2004 19:18 GMT
haha, very cool picture.

How did you get the 'blood' drips in some of your pics?

>from the photographer:
>
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>bottom of the page
Will D. - 10 Dec 2004 03:45 GMT
> Since that last thread was so popular ;-)
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> or even the 28-300 since it seems the magazines rate them so highly (not too
> bad on Fred Miranda dot com, too).

I'm going to repeat something I read a while back, don't recall where.

It seems that some reliable sources have said that there is more
variation between lenses of the same brand and type, than there are
between the same types of lenses of different manufacture.  AIUI, modern
lenses are of such sophisticated design, and materials are so good, that
the variables are in manufacture and assembly.  IIRC, it was assembly
that was the main culprit.

Expensive lenses made by major camera manufacturers are more closely
QCed, which might mean that there are more rejects, and/or more
attention is paid to the work, don't know which.  I suppose that Leica
is the standard for lens quality, and because Leica rejects anything
less than perfection.  Probably Canon and Nikon follow somewhere nearby,
with other camera manufacturers close behind.

Third party lenses are a different story.  I remember reading that
Vivitar never built a lens, that they had them designed and manufactured
to their specs, probably price point.  Kiron built lenses for Vivitar
for a while, for instance.  Tamron and Tokina market some expensive
lenses and some inexpensive lenses, and the main difference aside from
bells and whistles, is quality control.

Don't know what the story with Sigma is, but I'd be willing to guess
that they have their stuff manufactured, even though they offer camera
bodies as well as lenses.  So the "third party" ideas would apply, in
that case.

So the conclusion is that you get what you pay for.  For inexpensive
third party lenses, one can sometimes get a real jewel, and sometimes a
real lemon, depending on the luck of the draw.  What you pay for seems
to be related to the probability that the lens you get is a good one.

I really don't know about all this, but it makes sense to me.

Will D.
Randall Ainsworth - 10 Dec 2004 04:55 GMT
> Third party lenses are a different story.  I remember reading that
> Vivitar never built a lens, that they had them designed and manufactured
> to their specs, probably price point.  Kiron built lenses for Vivitar
> for a while, for instance.  Tamron and Tokina market some expensive
> lenses and some inexpensive lenses, and the main difference aside from
> bells and whistles, is quality control.

Vivitar never made anything.  They're a marketing company.
Ryadia - 10 Dec 2004 23:06 GMT
> Don't know what the story with Sigma is, but I'd be willing to guess
> that they have their stuff manufactured, even though they offer camera
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Will D.

Sigma is a well established Japanese manufacturer. They are not an American
marketing company like Vivatar was/is.
http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/company.htm
Randall Ainsworth - 11 Dec 2004 03:46 GMT
> Sigma is a well established Japanese manufacturer. They are not an American
> marketing company like Vivatar was/is.

Well established - yes.  Manufacturer of quality equipment - not even
close.
Will D. - 11 Dec 2004 05:24 GMT
>> Don't know what the story with Sigma is, but I'd be willing to guess
>> that they have their stuff manufactured, even though they offer camera
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> marketing company like Vivatar was/is.
> http://www.sigmaphoto.com/html/company.htm

Took a look at their site.  They say that they coordinate development,
manufacture and distribution world-wide.  I wonder if perhaps they don't
farm out the less expensive items and concentrate on the high end stuff.

Not very many manufactures build all of their own products, I think.
The trick seems to be in making sure the low end stuff doesn't harm the
reputation of the whole line, and some companies don't manage to do that
overly well.  Don't know about Sigma, but it does seem like a good
question.

Also, Sigma has bought into Carver Mead's "Foveon technology", and it
looks like Mead is using Sigma as the test bed for what could turn out
to be a real winner.  If Mead wins, Sigma probably figures they will
too, I suppose.  Seems to me that the three layer technology might be a
bit difficult to do.  Guess we'll see.

Will D.
Randall Ainsworth - 11 Dec 2004 05:48 GMT
> Took a look at their site.  They say that they coordinate development,
> manufacture and distribution world-wide.  I wonder if perhaps they don't
> farm out the less expensive items and concentrate on the high end stuff.

Sigma - high end?  Sorry, I don't see it.

> Not very many manufactures build all of their own products, I think.
> The trick seems to be in making sure the low end stuff doesn't harm the
> reputation of the whole line, and some companies don't manage to do that
> overly well.  Don't know about Sigma, but it does seem like a good
> question.

Sigma has no reputation to harm.

> Also, Sigma has bought into Carver Mead's "Foveon technology", and it
> looks like Mead is using Sigma as the test bed for what could turn out
> to be a real winner.  If Mead wins, Sigma probably figures they will
> too, I suppose.  Seems to me that the three layer technology might be a
> bit difficult to do.  Guess we'll see.

It's surprising they've lasted this long with their digital cameras.
They're overpriced pieces of junk using oddball technology. I don't
know how they can afford to keep making them with so few people being
suckered into buying them.
Ryadia - 11 Dec 2004 08:40 GMT
> It's surprising they've lasted this long with their digital cameras.
> They're overpriced pieces of junk using oddball technology. I don't
> know how they can afford to keep making them with so few people being
> suckered into buying them.

For a while you had me fooled Randal...
You really are the anti Preddy, aren't you?
Randall Ainsworth - 11 Dec 2004 14:40 GMT
> For a while you had me fooled Randal...
> You really are the anti Preddy, aren't you?

Preddy (or whatever his real name is) is an idiot. He spouts lies and
distortions and calls them truth.

You can buy everything in the Sigma catalog for all I care. Just don't
sit there and try to tell me it's on a par with real digital cameras
like Canon and Nikon...because it's not. I've been around this stuff
for too long to know better.
Ryadia - 11 Dec 2004 21:07 GMT
> You can buy everything in the Sigma catalog for all I care. Just don't
> sit there and try to tell me it's on a par with real digital cameras
> like Canon and Nikon...because it's not. I've been around this stuff
> for too long to know better.

I have never in my life come across  a person who so consistantly pushes a
point of view with no experience of the products they condem. The fact that
you keep doing it and insist on having the last word would be amusing were
it not for the stupidity of the statements you make. Why don't you stop it?
All you are doing is making an a.s of yourself.
Randall Ainsworth - 11 Dec 2004 22:23 GMT
> I have never in my life come across  a person who so consistantly pushes a
> point of view with no experience of the products they condem. The fact that
> you keep doing it and insist on having the last word would be amusing were
> it not for the stupidity of the statements you make. Why don't you stop it?
> All you are doing is making an a.s of yourself.

No, you're the idiot for calling the 20D noisy and preferring an
extremely mediocre and overpriced product above clearly superior
hardware.
 
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