Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2007
Suggest a DLSR for a beginner
|
|
Thread rating:  |
sandeep - 25 Oct 2007 15:11 GMT Hi friends,
These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go for a very expensive one, some where in the mid range would do for me. For a novice like me , a beginner with no prior knowledge about cams and photography which one can i go for. It would be great if you can suggest me something. If this is the wrong place to ask these kind of questions, I am sorry for wasting your time.
Thanks and Regards - Sandeep
David J Taylor - 25 Oct 2007 15:42 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep Sandeep,
The lowest price end of the Nikon range is the D40, sold with an 18 - 55mm lens. You can get very good results with such kit, and there is a 10MP variant with better resolution, the D40X. Canon offer something similar - 400D. Try handling both in a shop and seeing which you prefer, as handling is an important aspect. Both major brands (Nikon and Canon) can produce excellent results.
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond40x/
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/
If price is very important, maybe a refurbished or second-hand camera would be a possibility?
DSLRs typically cost more, and weigh more than compact cameras, and if taking photos (rather than simply owning a DSLR) is your aim, you should also consider the better compact cameras such as the Panasonic FZ18 and TZ3. They are very good value for money, but don't have quite the same speed of response, or the ability to work in low light levels as a DSLR (because the sensor in the compact camera is smaller, and the auto-focus mechanism is different).
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Panasonic/panasonic_dmcfz18.asp
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/panasonictz3/
Cheers, David
Yvon Travailler - 25 Oct 2007 23:42 GMT > The lowest price end of the Nikon range is the D40, sold with an 18 - 55mm > lens. You can get very good results with such kit, and there is a 10MP > variant with better resolution, the D40X. Canon offer something similar - > 400D. Try handling both in a shop and seeing which you prefer, as > handling is an important aspect. Both major brands (Nikon and Canon) can > produce excellent results. go with a Nikon or a Canon, avoid Pentax and Olympus.
The problem with the D40 and the D40x is the incompatibily with older lenses (manual focus only).
Revel XTI (aka 400d) or Rebet XT are probably the bests deals right now.
Skip the kit lens and get yourself a Sigma 18-70 instead.
Yvon Travailler - 26 Oct 2007 00:03 GMT > Skip the kit lens and get yourself a Sigma 18-70 instead. 17-70
acl - 26 Oct 2007 00:16 GMT > > The lowest price end of the Nikon range is the D40, sold with an 18 - 55mm > > lens. You can get very good results with such kit, and there is a 10MP [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > The problem with the D40 and the D40x is the incompatibily with older lenses > (manual focus only). They also do not autofocus with screw-driven AF lenses (such as the 50mm f/1.8 or the 85mm f/1.8).
> Revel XTI (aka 400d) or Rebet XT are probably the bests deals right now. > > Skip the kit lens and get yourself a Sigma 18-70 instead. Yvon Travailler - 26 Oct 2007 01:17 GMT > > > The lowest price end of the Nikon range is the D40, sold with an 18 - 55mm > > > lens. You can get very good results with such kit, and there is a 10MP [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > They also do not autofocus with screw-driven AF lenses (such as the > 50mm f/1.8 or the 85mm f/1.8). euh, thats exactly waht I said, hehehe
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 08:11 GMT >> The lowest price end of the Nikon range is the D40, sold with an 18 - >> 55mm [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > go with a Nikon or a Canon, avoid Pentax and Olympus. Great advice, they are woeful cameras, lower priced and better featured than the others will only confuse him and when he needs more features he can just buy another camera. ;-)
Jürgen Exner - 25 Oct 2007 16:02 GMT > These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a > DSLR. [...] > For a novice like me , a beginner with no prior knowledge about cams > and photography which one can i go for. Based on your statement that you have _no_ prior knowledge of photography I would suggest to stay away from SLRs at this time and instead start with a lower medium range Point&Shoot, maybe in the 150-200$ range. While lacking the versatility and power of SLRs they do make good photos, are easier to handle, and require less knowledge. They are good tools to learn composition and develop an eye for possible motives.
Once you master your P&S you will have a much better understanding of what to look for in a camera and more important what your needs for your personal style of photography are and you can then purchase a SLR that fits _your_ needs rather than some generic "I am a beginner" need.
jue
Aad - 25 Oct 2007 16:36 GMT >> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >> DSLR. [...] [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > jue And maybe a more advanced P&S with the possibilities to go over to Manual settings. It might be a good way to start learning about 'catching light'. Beside that, a DLSR will benefit from good glas. If you start with a good body and cheap glass the results can be dissapointing. The second step for you wil be handling the software. A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. A DLSR picture will always need some adjustment/improvement/sharpening with software like Photoshop (element), Paint Shop Pro, etc. Succes Aad
Jürgen Exner - 25 Oct 2007 17:20 GMT > A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. > A DLSR picture will always need some > adjustment/improvement/sharpening with software like Photoshop > (element), Paint Shop Pro, etc. Succes Sorry, but this is just nonsense. Unless you are shooting in RAW (which cannot be displayed by any standard devices and therefore must be converted) there is just as much or as little need to post-process a photo from a dSLR as from a P&S. Actually I would even argue that SLRs in general are producing better photos (considering technical aspects), therefore there is less need to postprocess them.
However the typical user of a SLR is likely to be more demanding and therefore he is more likely to postprocess.
jue
David J Taylor - 25 Oct 2007 17:26 GMT []
> A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. > A DLSR picture will always need some > adjustment/improvement/sharpening with software like Photoshop > (element), Paint Shop Pro, etc. Succes > Aad If my DSLR pictures always required post-processing, I would regard the camera as faulty and take it back! I am a believer in the "get it right in the camera" way of working, and post-processing is usually only required to repair damage, crop, or make multi-picture wide-angle shots.
Cheers, David
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 08:12 GMT > [] >> A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Cheers, > David That is a nonsense, you are missing out on being able to print better picutres.
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 08:38 GMT >> [] >>> A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > That is a nonsense, you are missing out on being able to print better > picutres. Sorry, but a camera which produces pictures which /always/ require post processing is not one which I would accept, and in my view at least, is faulty. The great majority of pictures should /not/ require post-processing. By the way, I come from previously having taken slides - where post-processing is next to impossible - so I am used to getting the picture correct in the camera itself.
By far the majority of my viewing of images is done on the monitor screen (or TV or projector), so I don't have the problems like the limited colour range of printed material.
I'm not saying that all post-processing is wrong - far from it. If that's the way you prefer to work so be it. But it should not be a requirement of using a DSLR vesus a compact camera.
Cheers, David
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 10:22 GMT >>> [] >>>> A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > where post-processing is next to impossible - so I am used to getting the > picture correct in the camera itself. So all your slides came straight from your camera, must have been one of them there polaroid ones.
Just because you were not in the darkroom when they were processed does not mean work was not done.
> By far the majority of my viewing of images is done on the monitor screen > (or TV or projector), so I don't have the problems like the limited colour > range of printed material. How sad!
> I'm not saying that all post-processing is wrong - far from it. If that's > the way you prefer to work so be it. But it should not be a requirement > of using a DSLR vesus a compact camera. Any and I do mean absolutely all D-SLR camera can have their jpegs set to give a ready to print result straight from the camera, the better ones will let you develop RAW in the camera and produce jpegs from the ones you choose.
There is a trade off of course and if you are happy with that all the time then more power to you, the workflow with tols such as Lightroom can be just as quick as importing directly from your memory card.
> Cheers, > David Dare to experiment David and try and see just how powerful RAW can be and you will reap the results. I will admit to doing a mixture of jpeg and RAW but RAW certainly has much greater potential if you are willing to try. I also will admit that the biggest print I have done 2.5 metres x 0.6 metres was shot in jpeg mode.
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1330/1415466557_70f7d7772f_o.jpg
Cheers.
Pete
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 11:05 GMT []
> So all your slides came straight from your camera, must have been one > of them there polaroid ones. > > Just because you were not in the darkroom when they were processed > does not mean work was not done. I used mostly Kodachrome and Ektachrome, where every single image on the cassette was processed identically, and every cassette was processed nominally identically to every other.
>> By far the majority of my viewing of images is done on the monitor >> screen (or TV or projector), so I don't have the problems like the >> limited colour range of printed material. > > How sad! I forgot about the Chrsitmas cards and calendars I have made.
>> I'm not saying that all post-processing is wrong - far from it. If >> that's the way you prefer to work so be it. But it should not be a [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > time then more power to you, the workflow with tols such as Lightroom > can be just as quick as importing directly from your memory card. Last measurement I made importing from a card was 321 files totalling 216MB in 273 seconds.
> Dare to experiment David and try and see just how powerful RAW can be > and you will reap the results. I will admit to doing a mixture of [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Pete Nice one! Several images combined, or one single shot?
Oh, perhaps if I had the time I might do more RAW, but much of my photography is events when hundreds of photos are taken each day. Often Motor Racing, so getting the optimum exposure to within 1/3 of a stop is not the major concern. The subject and composition telling the story of the event or the personality is much more important.
All of these were JPEGs, almost all straight of the camera. Mostly Nikon D40, some Ricoh R6.
http://david-taylor.fotopic.net/c1322695.html
Doubtless many could be better!
Cheers, David
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 11:43 GMT >> Dare to experiment David and try and see just how powerful RAW can be >> and you will reap the results. I will admit to doing a mixture of [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Nice one! Several images combined, or one single shot? Six shots joined with Autostitch.
> Oh, perhaps if I had the time I might do more RAW, but much of my > photography is events when hundreds of photos are taken each day. Often [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Doubtless many could be better! Maybe! I am a lazy PPer but a little work can really make a big difference.
Pete
> Cheers, > David steve - 25 Oct 2007 21:49 GMT > A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. > A DLSR picture will always need some adjustment/improvement/sharpening > with software like Photoshop (element), Paint Shop Pro, etc. Have you got this the wrong way around?
Aad - 26 Oct 2007 10:19 GMT >> A P&S wil deliver you 'ready' or 'almost ready' pictures. >> A DLSR picture will always need some adjustment/improvement/sharpening >> with software like Photoshop (element), Paint Shop Pro, etc. > > Have you got this the wrong way around? No I dont't. When all the settings in 'standard' you wil notice that P&S pics are more 'crisp' then DSLR pics. Ofcourse you can change the settings but if you don't, you will see a big difference when you make bigger prints. (20x30 or bigger) DSLR pics will always come up better with a little Unsharp Masking. (at least) Aad
Andrew Haley - 26 Oct 2007 10:47 GMT >> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >> DSLR. [...] >> For a novice like me , a beginner with no prior knowledge about cams >> and photography which one can i go for.
> Based on your statement that you have _no_ prior knowledge of > photography I would suggest to stay away from SLRs at this time and [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > knowledge. They are good tools to learn composition and develop an > eye for possible motives. I don't believe a word of this: P&S cameras are never the best thing to use, even for an absolute beginner. I've put a D1x into the hands of a total novice, given a few minutes instructions and said "go shoot". It was fine.
P&S cameras are not easier for a beginner to use than DSLRs, and the performance will be far worse. Because of the better lenses and generally higher performance, a beginner will get more encouraging results from the start. The only thing they need to know is how to put it into "full auto" mode.
Andrew.
Jürgen Exner - 26 Oct 2007 15:17 GMT >>> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >>> DSLR. [...] [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > results from the start. The only thing they need to know is how to > put it into "full auto" mode. Well, if you have an unlimited check book, then it really doesn't matter, I guess.
In the real world things are different. If you've no experience with alcohol than it is simply a waste to buy the 25 year old Talisker or Courvoisier for 100+$ a bottle because you wouldn't know the difference to a much cheaper standard brandy anyway as long as it's not totally bottom end. You simply lack the experience and knowledge.
Same with photography and cameras. I am very happy with my D80 and would never buy a D3 for the simple reason, that for my needs at my current level and medium-term foreseeable future level I don't need a D3 and I wouldn't take advantage of the additional features of a D3. Therefore why not save some money by _not_ buying a top of the line gadget when a simpler one will work, too.
Don't forget: the most important photographic equipment is behind the view finder, no matter if it's holding a slr or a p&s.
jue
Andrew Haley - 27 Oct 2007 13:34 GMT >>>> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >>>> DSLR. [...] [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> the hands of a total novice, given a few minutes instructions and >> said "go shoot". It was fine.
>> P&S cameras are not easier for a beginner to use than DSLRs, and >> the performance will be far worse. Because of the better lenses >> and generally higher performance, a beginner will get more >> encouraging results from the start. The only thing they need to >> know is how to put it into "full auto" mode.
> Well, if you have an unlimited check book, then it really doesn't > matter, I guess. A decent DSLR is not that expensive. For example, a Nikon D40 can be had for about 300 GBP.
Anyone who is reasonably intelligent and interested will rapidly get better results with a DSLR than with a point 'n shoot. As I said above, this is not theorizing: I have done the experiment. To the OP: if you're really interested in photography, get a DSLR. You probably won't regret it.
> Same with photography and cameras. I am very happy with my D80 and > would never buy a D3 for the simple reason, that for my needs at my > current level and medium-term foreseeable future level I don't need > a D3 and I wouldn't take advantage of the additional features of a > D3. Therefore why not save some money by _not_ buying a top of the > line gadget when a simpler one will work, too. But point 'n shoot cameras are *not* simpler to use than DSLRs. The controls that you really need to use when learning photography are hidden in a maze of bewildering menus. If it takes ages to find the basic controls, you're probably not going to use them.
There may be an argument for a simple and small camera that is designed for people who want to learn and also for experts, with the essential basic controls readily to hand.
> Don't forget: the most important photographic equipment is behind > the view finder, no matter if it's holding a SLR or a p&s. Sure, but given a level of skill, you will probably get better results and learn faster with a DSLR.
Andrew.
Bigguy - 25 Oct 2007 16:35 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep Have a look at the Nikon D40, and have a play with it if possible...
Guy
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 08:13 GMT >> Hi friends, >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > Guy And then buy almost any other camera and get better feature list.
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 08:37 GMT >>> Hi friends, >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > And then buy almost any other camera and get better feature list. For a beginner, having fewer features may be better, allowing them to concentrate on the creative aspects of photography. To actually take some pictures. More features don't necessarily make for better pictures.
David
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 10:26 GMT >>>> Hi friends, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > David MLU, Spot metering and in camera stabilisation are worth every cent you pay for them, Pentax K100D has all these. Excellent beginners camera that will grow with the user. Will actually metter properly with any lens you can mount, try that with the others.
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 10:47 GMT []
> MLU, Spot metering and in camera stabilisation are worth every cent > you pay for them, Pentax K100D has all these. Excellent beginners > camera that will grow with the user. Will actually metter properly > with any lens you can mount, try that with the others. The D40 and D40x have spot metering. I disagree about in-camera image stabilisation, and think that in-lens is better as it also stabilises the image in the viewfinder and on the focus sensors. Nikon supply at least one low-cost image stabilised lens suitable for a beginner - the 55-200mm - and it has good image quality. Yes, you don't have mirror lockup.
Cheers, David
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 11:47 GMT > [] >> MLU, Spot metering and in camera stabilisation are worth every cent [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Cheers, > David Thats good that they have spot metering cos the skanky Canons don't. Every lens that mounts on the K100D will be stabilised, if you want that on your D40 you have to buy it every time, not good for a beginner. At moderate lengths the viewfinder is not a problem.
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 13:52 GMT > "David J Taylor" []
>> The D40 and D40x have spot metering. []
> Thats good that they have spot metering cos the skanky Canons don't. > Every lens that mounts on the K100D will be stabilised, if you want > that on your D40 you have to buy it every time, not good for a > beginner. At moderate lengths the viewfinder is not a problem. Pete,
It rather depends on how many lenses the beginner envisages buying. As a starter outfit, for the Nikon D40/D40X the 18 - 55 and 55 - 200 VR make an excellent, light-weight, low-cost combination.
You are right that IS/VR makes more difference at the longer focal lengths, and seeing the image stabilise in the viewfinder makes you realise just how much extra in-lens IS/VR gives you. Try it on something like a 300mm if you get the chance, perhaps at your local dealers.
Cheers, David
Paul Mitchum - 27 Oct 2007 21:53 GMT David J Taylor <david-taylor@blueyonder.not-this-bit.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> Hi friends, > >>> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > For a beginner, having fewer features may be better, allowing them to > concentrate on the creative aspects of photography. [..] Those features *are* the creative aspects of photography.
 Signature http://www.xoverboard.com/cartoons/2007/070416_argument.html
Bruce - 30 Oct 2007 01:58 GMT Have a look at the D40X version with the 18-70mm Nikkor.
Bruce
Bigguy - 26 Oct 2007 16:20 GMT >>> Hi friends, >>> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > > And then buy almost any other camera and get better feature list. No, keep it simple and learn the basics... yes you'll probably end up buying another camera in the future, but by then you will know what you really want/need.
More 'features' are the last thing a novice needs.
Good manual controls, descent lens, accurate metering...
Most P+S cameras drive me nuts with poor ergonomics and over complex control systems; learn aperture, shutter, exposure, composition NOT 24 different 'modes'.
Just my 10 cents worth ;-) I am old school...
Guy
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 21:20 GMT >>>> Hi friends, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > control systems; learn aperture, shutter, exposure, composition NOT 24 > different 'modes'. The K100D fills this perfectly.
> Just my 10 cents worth ;-) I am old school... > > Guy Mr. Strat - 25 Oct 2007 17:08 GMT > These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a > DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > suggest me something. If this is the wrong place to ask these kind of > questions, I am sorry for wasting your time. I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography.
David J Taylor - 25 Oct 2007 17:30 GMT >> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >> DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography. Manual control is, though.
Unless, of course, learning about composition and getting the eye and brain tuned for photo opportunities is what photography is really about, rather than the detailed mechanics of equipment.....
<G>
David
Bill - 25 Oct 2007 22:45 GMT >I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography. I certainly do. Before digital, there was little choice between SLR's and point and shoots (except for the almighty instamatic <g>). If you were interested in learning photography, you bought an SLR. I think the same holds true today. Before you learn, you can always set a DSLR to auto to get the shots you really must have. As you learn, you have more latitude to advance with typically more features and more latitude to expand your options with better lenses. Most Digital cameras are backward compatible with their lenses and this investment can be carried forward should you decide to upgrade the body.
With a point and shoot, your investment is lost should you decide to move up, IMHO.
Bill
Jeffrey Kaplan - 26 Oct 2007 00:51 GMT It is alleged that Bill claimed:
> I certainly do. Before digital, there was little choice between SLR's > and point and shoots (except for the almighty instamatic <g>). If you [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > With a point and shoot, your investment is lost should you decide to > move up, IMHO. I still use my P&S. About a year and a half ago, I upgraded from a Sony DSC S85 to a Casio ZX-500, in large part because of the size difference. The Casio easily fits in my pocket, and is therefore my "always have" camera. That camera is always with me, and I use it for spur-of-the-moment snapshots and places where I wouldn't take my Nikon D40x. Like on a fishing boat in the harbor, to a wedding I'm a part of, etc.
 Signature Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol
"An army of darkness, soldiers of the devil... or something like that. We're all in great danger. A pox upon this station." (Amis, B5 "The Long Dark")
BobF@home.com - 26 Oct 2007 00:58 GMT >> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >> DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > >I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography. I do... if you want to LEARN...
How can you learn from a point and shoot?
A DSLR can be set to fully auto to start (like a P&S) and then different features can be tried out to learn stuff... go from zero to hero!
I got an SLR when I was 20, and I sure don't regret it!
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 07:20 GMT []
> How can you learn from a point and shoot? Composition, zooming, depth-of-field control, spotting a photo, cropping, multi-picture combining for wide-angles, stealth photography (thinking waist level viewing, angle finders etc.). The better compact cameras offer full manual control, without the hassle of lens changing or sensor cleaning.
David
ben brugman - 26 Oct 2007 19:28 GMT >> How can you learn from a point and shoot? > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > David Composition Yes, Zooming (this is compositon as well I think) Yes depth-of-field control (not on most point and shoot's) NONE *) spotting a photo (Yes even more with a ps because that can be carried more easely and not unimportant can from hip to foto is often faster than a SLR from hip to foto). **) Manul al control is limited *) No lens changing. Yes. No sensor cleaning Yes, but if you get dust on the sensor (not totaly unlickely) it's virtual impossible to remove.
*) There is hardly depth-of-field control, with the aperature of 3.3 which is the equivalent of 20 on a full frame camera, there is not much control. So because of the aperatur equivalent, you mostly end up using the larges aperature and the fastest speed possible. This is different from a DSLR.
**) I own next to a D70 a TZ3 (28-280 equivalent), from hip to shoot is less time than getting the D70 out of where-ever it is. Taking the camera (D70) of of it's bag cost more time than taking the TZ3 out of it's small bag. So for the TZ3 there is more oppertunity. (Except in difficult circumstances where the D70 wins).
ben
David J Taylor - 26 Oct 2007 21:05 GMT []
> *) > There is hardly depth-of-field control, with the aperature of 3.3 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > larges aperature and the fastest speed possible. > This is different from a DSLR. []
> ben Different, yes, but I find that with the longer end of the telephoto on a compact camera (e.g. 432mm) there's plenty of opportunity for getting out-of-focus backgrounds. Certain enoguh to teach a beginner the principles. Yes, there's more scope on a DSLR.
Cheers, David
Chris Malcolm - 27 Oct 2007 09:40 GMT >>> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >>> DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >>I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography.
> I do... if you want to LEARN...
> How can you learn from a point and shoot? If it's a point & shoot which has the same adjustments as a DSLR, e.g. full manual, then you learn in exactly the same way. And because it's smaller and you carry it around more often, you learn more quickly and in more varied circumstances.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 08:15 GMT >> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >> DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography. Of course it is, much better than using a P&S, any D-SLR will have good Av, Tv and manual modes, much easier to use and learn than a P&S in manual mode.
Chris Malcolm - 27 Oct 2007 09:55 GMT >>> These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a >>> DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography.
> Of course it is, much better than using a P&S, any D-SLR will have good Av, > Tv and manual modes, much easier to use and learn than a P&S in manual mode. I think the problem is that you're comparing a generic average DSLR with a generic average P&S. I suspect that whatever particular kind of semi-automatic adjustment on a DSLR you care to pick, you will be able to find a P&S with the same.
The difference is that while most DSLRs will probably have it, most P&S's won't. But this generic sneering at *all* P&Ss is a silly in the digital camera world as it was in the pre-digital world. There always were, and always will be, non-SLRs which for a given kind of adjustments and image quality offered SLR quality at half the SLR price, simply because the SLR concept involves extra mechanical and optical engineering which you have to pay for.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
Stanislav Meduna - 26 Oct 2007 10:09 GMT > I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography. Erm, why? The learning curve is steeper, sure, but one will learn good habits right from the start.
While I agree that the photographer is much more important than a camera, way too many people coming from P&S (or even worse cellphone cameras) have _no_ idea that something like depth of field exist and do not understand all the variables that come into play when taking a shot. They just did not need to...
Now that the DSLRs are quite affordable and the price gap to (better) P&S is not that large I'd suggest to get the DSLR. And maybe get some P&S later for situations where one does not want to carry the bulk.
I started with my parents' film SLR when I was a child. It is not a problem if one is willing to learn and does not expect the camera to make all the decisions.
 Signature Stano
Chris Malcolm - 27 Oct 2007 10:05 GMT >> I don't know that a DSLR is the place to begin learning photography.
> Erm, why? The learning curve is steeper, sure, but one > will learn good habits right from the start.
> While I agree that the photographer is much more important > than a camera, way too many people coming from P&S (or even > worse cellphone cameras) have _no_ idea that something like > depth of field exist and do not understand all the variables > that come into play when taking a shot. They just did not > need to... But you can get P&Ss with full manual if that's what you want. I suspect that most people in the street with a DSLR also haven't a clue about all the variables because they also don't need to. I know some people with DSLRs who long ago gave up fiddling with the controls after finding that the camera on full auto always did a much better job than they knew how to.
> Now that the DSLRs are quite affordable and the price > gap to (better) P&S is not that large I'd suggest > to get the DSLR. I don't think you're making a fair comparison. I suspect that if you compare a P&S with a DSLR plus kit zoom which is near the same price you'll get much better image quality from the P&S. The DSLR concept involves extra mechanical and optical engineering which you have to pay for.
 Signature Chris Malcolm cam@infirmatics.ed.ac.uk DoD #205 IPAB, Informatics, JCMB, King's Buildings, Edinburgh, EH9 3JZ, UK [http://www.dai.ed.ac.uk/homes/cam/]
rarewolf - 25 Oct 2007 20:01 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep If I were you, I would opt for one of the better point&shoot dcams. I just purchased my wife the Canon G7 after weighing it against the Ricoh GX-100 and the Panasonic LX-2. This is one sweet camera, even if it cannot deliver raw files ... but its succesor, G9, can.
I also suggest you hang out at DPReview.com for a couple of days and browse the forums.
cheerios from a Oly E-300 owner.
sheepdog 2007 - 25 Oct 2007 22:37 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep If you intend to take snapshots like most casual camera owners, I'd say buy a point & shoot digital and spend no more than $250-300USD for your first one. Are you someone who takes a lot of pictures with your mobile phone? If so, the upgrade in picture quality will likely keep you interested for long enough to make decisions when and if you feel the need to upgrade further, or to take a different path.
If your interest is in actually learning to be a good photographer, and if you are just assuming a digital SLR is the only way to learn, it isn't. Start by enrolling in a basic photography course. If you are fortunate, the instructor will steer you towards black and white film and a basic, all-manual camera. You'll learn to see in terms of composition, texture & lighting. At the same time, you'll begin to make images that tell a story, express an emotion, or capture a moment of time.
As you acquire some mastery of the medium you'll have a better idea what equipment works for you. If you start off with too much technology, it will only get in the way of expression. If you buy a new tool only when you actually need it, you'll be in charge, not the marketing department of Nikon, Canon, Sony, etc.
 Signature Cease then to grieve for your private afflictions, and address yourselves instead to the safety of the republic
BobF@home.com - 26 Oct 2007 00:53 GMT >Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Thanks and Regards >- Sandeep Look into the Sony Alpha 100... it's priced down around $700 now, is great for beginners, takes great pics, and you have a choice of lenses when you buy it. Also fits into a small bag.
Has the same 10m sensor as the Nikon D200.
Has anti shake built it.
The menu system is very good for beginners because you don't have to scroll for items... in fact, you can do most things with a knob and a few buttons. And only one data screen to worry about - no top screen.
Also comes with excellent software to learn RAW format editing. With other cams you may need to buy something else.
Fits the old Minolta system as well...
I like mine, I carry it everywhere, with a 18-200mm lens.
I also have a Nikon D70.
nospam - 26 Oct 2007 05:24 GMT > Has the same 10m sensor as the Nikon D200. the sensor in the d200 is made to nikon specs and differs slightly from the one in the sony a100 in several ways, one of which being 4 channel readout so it can maintain 5fps (versus 3fps on the sony).
BobF@home.com - 27 Oct 2007 01:56 GMT >> Has the same 10m sensor as the Nikon D200. > >the sensor in the d200 is made to nikon specs and differs slightly from >the one in the sony a100 in several ways, one of which being 4 channel >readout so it can maintain 5fps (versus 3fps on the sony). Yes and the sensor is quieter in the Nikon as well... but at half the price it is still a good buy.
Jeffrey Kaplan - 26 Oct 2007 06:53 GMT It is alleged that BobF@home.com claimed:
> Look into the Sony Alpha 100... it's priced down around $700 now, is great for > beginners, takes great pics, and you have a choice of lenses when you buy it. > Also fits into a small bag. Does it take any kind of memory other than Sony's proprietary Memory Stick?
 Signature Jeffrey Kaplan www.gordol.org The from userid is killfiled Send personal mail to gordol
"We are a race of lunatics and cowards." (Amb. Mollari, B5 "Midnight on the Firing Line")
Jeff - 26 Oct 2007 14:19 GMT > It is alleged that BobF@home.com claimed: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Does it take any kind of memory other than Sony's proprietary Memory > Stick? Yes. It uses Compact Flash memory.
BobF@home.com - 27 Oct 2007 01:54 GMT >It is alleged that BobF@home.com claimed: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >Does it take any kind of memory other than Sony's proprietary Memory >Stick? It uses a compact flash style card...
But it came with a memory stick adapter, so I have a 4g Sony stick in the CF adapter, and it cost less than a real CF card.
jean - 26 Oct 2007 04:11 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > suggest me something. If this is the wrong place to ask these kind of > questions, I am sorry for wasting your time. Contrary to what many have said, a DSLR is a good choice to start in photography, for one thing, the newer ones like the Canon 400XTi don't need any complicated sequence of button pushes to get it going and to take a picture, just compose the shot and press the shutter, it turns on instantly and triggers, just like the old mechanical 35mm did years ago.
The drawback to a DSLR is the price and of course the size without mentionning the ever spiraling cost of lenses and accessories.
It's a nice hobby so it's normal if it's expensive ;-)
Jean
John McWilliams - 26 Oct 2007 04:52 GMT >> Hi friends, >> [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > It's a nice hobby so it's normal if it's expensive ;-) Well, much cheaper than ocean racing! <s>
I agree with the lower cost DSLR, esp. given that our O.P. had specified such.
Good luck, and happy shooting!
 Signature john mcwilliams
Pete D - 26 Oct 2007 08:18 GMT jean wrote:
> "sandeep" <hyd.sandeep@gmail.com> a écrit dans le message de > news:1193321485.849568.293480@v23g2000prn.googlegroups.com... [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > It's a nice hobby so it's normal if it's expensive ;-) Well, much cheaper than ocean racing! <s>
I agree with the lower cost DSLR, esp. given that our O.P. had specified such.
Good luck, and happy shooting!
 Signature john mcwilliams
He also said middle of the range, that to me would mean something like a 5D.
Scott W - 27 Oct 2007 12:23 GMT >>> Hi friends, >>> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > > Well, much cheaper than ocean racing! <s> I do ocean racing and have less invested in that then camera gear, but not by a lot. But then this is the type of boat I race in. http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75743838
Scott
John McWilliams - 27 Oct 2007 16:54 GMT >>> It's a nice hobby so it's normal if it's expensive ;-) >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > not by a lot. But then this is the type of boat I race in. > http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/75743838 Good one, Scott!
I was thinking of the type of sailing that's been likened unto standing under a cold shower tearing up $100 bills. But that's if you're the owner, and having to replace your Gennies every few weeks.....
 Signature john mcwilliams
Pboud - 29 Oct 2007 16:02 GMT >>>> It's a nice hobby so it's normal if it's expensive ;-) >>> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > under a cold shower tearing up $100 bills. But that's if you're the > owner, and having to replace your Gennies every few weeks..... That would be *this* one http://www.navy.forces.gc.ca/cms_images/ship_site_images/ship_gallery/480/Oriole %20flying%20the%20genniker.jpg
(or) http://tinyurl.com/37wcwj
I navigated that thing for a few months.. I'm just thankful I didn't have to finance her.
:D P.
Doug Jewell - 26 Oct 2007 11:43 GMT Despite the P&S recommendations, I'll put my hat in for a low-end DSLR rather than a compact camera. For the following reasons: * Greater image quality. In some tests I did a while back, a 6MP Pentax K100D with a sigma kit 18-50 lens wiped the floor with a Canon A640 (10MP) for image quality. The DSLR had better dynamic range, so skies were blue instead of washed out white, while shadows retained detail rather than becoming a speckled mess. The DSLR was sharper and captured greater fine detail, despite it being lower "megapixel" rating. When the light got low, and the ISO went up, the SLR really came into it's own. * Even a cheap "kit" lens on a DSLR will be sharper than any P&S lens. * More control. Even though some P&S do allow manual control, the range of choices is usually very limited. They normally only have 2-3 stops of aperture to choose from. Because of the smaller sensors, you get very great depth of field, so you won't really learn much about some of the finer aspects of photography, such as controlling depth of field. * Faster. DSLRs will focus quicker than P&S. When you press the button they fire faster. After you've taken one photo, many P&S will force you to wait, whereas DSLR can keep firing. If you want to use manual focus, they respond faster than the pushbutton focussing on the few P&S's that offer MF. *Versatility. P&S's are stuck with the lens they ship with. DSLR gives you the option of a whole host of specialised lenses depending on what type of photography you do. Sure some are hideously expensive, but they are available. True wide angle is especially rare with P&S. *Ease of use. Despite the fact that DSLRs offer more controls, the various image quality controls are normally faster to access. Many P&S will require you to scroll through menus to change many functions, whereas most DSLRs have dedicated buttons for a lot of functions. Every low-mid DSLR currently on the market offers a fully automatic mode that is no more complex than fully auto on a P&S. *Accessories. Not many P&S allow external flashguns, remote releases, battery grips, attachment of filters, eyecups, dioptre eyepieces etc. You may not need these accessories now, but if you have the need for them in the future, you can with a DSLR.
Anyway, as to what to recommend... Any of the Canon, Nikon, Pentax/Samsung, Sony or Olympus DSLRs will offer a good set of features, with plenty of scope for your photography to take you places. I'd suggest you try some and see how they feel. Personally I like the Pentax/Samsung system, because there is a good range of lenses, and they are compatible with all the older K-Mount lenses too.
> Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep Wolfgang Weisselberg - 26 Oct 2007 13:54 GMT > These days i am interested in photography, so thinking of buying a > DSLR. But I dont know which one would be a good choice, I cannot go > for a very expensive one, some where in the mid range would do for me. What is your budget? What is your ambition? What is your defintion of "mid range"?
> For a novice like me , a beginner with no prior knowledge about cams > and photography which one can i go for. Let's see.
1. Decide how serious you are with the hobby. Will you still be pursuing it after 2 years, with the same verve? - If NO, are you willing to sell the gear you bought at a loss? (very good (and expensive!) lenses usually loose somewhere around 20% value, Bodies --- well, if you get 20% or 30% after 2 years, you're lucky) - if NO, stick with a compact camera for the beginning. Choose one that has full manual control (i.e. *you* get to decide aperture and exposure time). If you are a bit more ambitious, RAW capability (the unprocessed sensor data, to tweak as you like on your computer) might be interesting.
2. Decide how much money you will spend. For a DSLR, you will need: - The body. - A lens. (often, but not always bundled with the body --- these lenses are usually consumer level lenses, i.e. cheap and plasticy, slow[1], with none too great optical results, but they'll do. Mostly. - A lens hood for said lens. Not only does it protect the lens somewhat from errant fingers and objects, it also vastly improves the image quality when it keeps strong light sources from reaching the front element. - A storage medium, usually CF, sometimes SD or a proprietary format (which costs more). 1 GB is good for ca. 100 8MPix pictures in RAW format, or ~500 as large, fine JPEGs. You'll soon want more than 1 GB, though, especially as shooting 10 pictures in 2 or 3 seconds costs as much as shooting one, and you can choose the best one afterwards.[2] - A card reader. You probably can use your camera, if you want slow and awkward. - Computer programs to deal with thousands and hundreds of thousands of pictures. You'll find proprietary free-as-beer, free free-as-speech and proprietary pay-for solutions, add in all the time you'll need to learn to use them effectively. (Note that you'll need the same for compact cameras, though.) + delete those that are unsharp, not the best, etc. + sort and classify + "develop" the shots (if you shoot RAW) + backup or archive the material (it's surprising how fast you get gigabytes of pictures) + retouch images: crop, frame, colour correct, remove blemishes, ... - A camera bag with space for your camera, lenses, storage media, extra batteries, flashes, etc. etc. Add up all that stuff. Is it in your budget? If NO, start with a compact camera, until you outgrow it.
3. Keep in mind you will want more stuff, e.g. - a 50mm fixed focal length lens. It's really hard to make bad ones, they are usually available for dirt cheap (e.g. <$100 for Canons 50mm f/1.8) they are much, much faster[1] than any zoom and can be lots of fun, playing with extremely shallow depth of field --- and such fast lenses are very, very useful for available light[3] shooting. Due to the crop factor[4] it's not so good for rooms and groups of people (too narrow field of view), but good for portraits (though you might want to blur the result a bit, unless you go for "see every pore" results. - a flash unit with a tiltable and turnable head, for indirect flash lighting. Direct flash looks very harsh and unpleasing. - more storage media, maybe an image tank - a sensor cleaning set - faster/better lenses, focal lengths you don't have yet, e.g. longer lenses for shooting animals in the zoo, shorter to get whole rooms or masses of people in one shot, faster for less DOF and/or available light - filters, neutral denity, gradiated ND, polarizer (circular!) - a computer with mor CPU power and more RAM - a stable tripod - more batteries - a vertical grip (especially if you have largish hands) - a website or online service to show off your photos - albums and prints for your best photos - lots of time you won't have
> It would be great if you can suggest me something. It depends a lot, but basically, unless you have specific needs, most any DSLR camera will do.
Cheap? Buy a used body one or two generations (usually == years) old. You'll replace it within a few years. But: The basic problem is that by choosing one brand, or rather, one bayonet connection, you can tie up lots of money there, especially with lenses. You'll not replace quality lenses in the next decade.
If you need something special only one bayonet connection has, e.g. the MP-E (a 1:1 to 5:1 macro only lens for Canon), your body manufacturer has just been chosen for you.
> If this is the wrong place to ask these kind of > questions, I am sorry for wasting your time. The place is OK. But you'll need to add more information.
-Wolfgang
[1] a "slow" lens is one with a small aperture, which lets in comparatively little light, so you need longer exposure times or higher "ISO" settings (which cause more noise). Additionally, especially consumer lenses need stopping down one or two stops, which (usually) drastically improves the image quality, but causes the need for even more light. [2] That "machine gun approach" can in _no_ way replace learning how to anticipate when to press the shutter. But it is useful for longer handheld exposures and coping with erratic subject movement (you just choose the best one), or getting the group shot where noone blinks in record time. [3] no flash and usually little light, say indoors or after sunset. [4] The sensor is smaller than the customary 24mmx36mm of 35mm film. If you trim away a wide border from a negative (or a print, for that matter) you get exactly the same effect: what's looking 'normal' on the original print now looks like a long lens was used.
A crop factor of 1.5 (common for many DSLRs) means that a 50mm lens on such a DSLR --- the customary "normal" lens that has approximately the same field of view as your eyes --- has so much of it's border trimmed that it's field of view looks like a 75mm (50mm * 1.5) without the border removed.
This has some very deep and important conclusions you'll not grasp right now, but which will become clear within a year or two, once you are deeper into that matter. For example, the "crop factor" does *not* make lenses longer, as the 50mm * 1.5 seems to indicate. It also does not change the depth of field --- it's still the DOF of a 50mm lens.
acl - 26 Oct 2007 14:18 GMT On Oct 26, 2:54 pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgt...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> It also does not > change the depth of field --- it's still the DOF of a > 50mm lens. Well, what exactly do you mean by depth of field here?
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 27 Oct 2007 23:00 GMT > On Oct 26, 2:54 pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgt...@sneakemail.com> > wrote: >> It also does not >> change the depth of field --- it's still the DOF of a >> 50mm lens.
> Well, what exactly do you mean by depth of field here? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field
If you use a camera with a crop factor of 5, it's 10mm lens at f/4 will give the DOF of a 10mm lens at f/4.
It will not give you the DOF of a 50mm lens at f/4, even if the field of view may be the same as a 50mm lens on a full frame sensor.
-Wolfgang
acl - 27 Oct 2007 23:17 GMT On Oct 28, 2:00 am, Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgt...@sneakemail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 26, 2:54 pm, Wolfgang Weisselberg <ozcvgt...@sneakemail.com> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > If you use a camera with a crop factor of 5, it's 10mm lens at > f/4 will give the DOF of a 10mm lens at f/4. It depends on what you mean by DOF. If you mean what is mentioned in the wikipedia article you linked to, well, look at section 8 of the wikipedia article. What is c? What does it depend on? Do f and N suffice to calculate the DOF?
D.Quatsch - 26 Oct 2007 14:08 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep I wonder if you are even more confused than before you read the suggestions of the last twenty-four hours.
One thing is obvious: photography is as controversial as religion or politics. That's why it fosters lively discussion groups, I guess. The first thing I would do is re-read every message where the poster is not advocating a particular marque, or a collection of lenses. Those will be the ones who actually want to help you.
I am surprised only one person favored a photography class. I'll add my vote in that column. If you are going to take a proper class, you'll want to wait and see what is recommended, rather than showing up on the first day lugging materiaal that needs to be exchanged.
 Signature Vanity is so secure in the heart of man that everyone wants to be admired: even I who write this, and you who read this.
Just Shoot Me - 26 Oct 2007 22:42 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep How much you are willing to spend on EVERYTHING is a big part of what you should get. also how deep into it do you want to go.
the lens. tripod, image editing software, flashes and slave flashes, books. and other gizmos.
Lens $700 Tripod $536 Tripod Head i forgot :) DSLR Camera $1299 Photoshop CS2 $600 Books and Tutorials =? Computer that can handle raw images and the software needed or wanted.
These are some of the things I have. its far from expensive compared to what some have here. You can get cheaper and more expensive with each of the items I listed. Personally im not really sure if its better to spend the money on getting the more expensive camera and getting a cheaper image editing program or a cheaper camera and getting a really good photoediting program. The image editing software you get might depend on the computer you have or if you are willing to upgrade it or get a newer one. Think how much you are willing to spend on this fun and rewarding venture or put the whole thing together a little at a time. PS grain of salt needed. I am a total newbie to DSLR.
Tom
malcom - 27 Oct 2007 16:18 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep Don't do it! Today I went for a walk in the park. Everywhere I looked there were middle aged men fumbling around with their DSLRs, photographing everything that moved or did'nt move. They all had bored looking wives standing behind them. It seems that just about every man that reaches that age when they might need Viagra goes out to get a DSLR. I'm seriously thinking of trashing my DSLR before it kills my libido and turns me into a boring fart. I'm sure it was'nt like this in the old days of film. I had a Nikon FM2 manual camera and it was rare to see anybody else with an SLR. Seems like a lot of these newbies are techno freaks, a few years ago they were at home with the model railways or something.
Seriously though, go on a weekend course on photography and you will probably end up with an SLR. Point and shoots seem awful after you've shot a few scenes with an SLR.
newsmb@plcom.net - 29 Oct 2007 19:47 GMT > Hi friends, > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Thanks and Regards > - Sandeep Pretty well everything on the market now is pretty good.
Your chances of of making a "mistake" with a camera/lens combo under $1,000 are virtually nil.
Just find something that feels good in your hands and takes the photos you want.
As other people have pointed out: getting a decent flash, tripod and remote cord will probably be of much more benefit to you than more expensive camera bodies and lenses.
Also, always keep in mind that photography is 99% technique and 1% gear.
|
|
|