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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / July 2007

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Low light group event portrait

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Paul Furman - 24 Jul 2007 18:42 GMT
I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
tables. I've agreed to do it but warned them that's really extraordinary
shooting conditions. I have a 50mm f/1.2 but that's too long for most
cases on crop frame D200, otherwise I have f/2 lenses at 28mm & 35mm and
a 20mm f/2.8 AF though that starts getting so wide it distorts the
people at the edges. Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)

I suggested maybe turn on the lights for a few more formal group shots,
they don't seem to be planning to do any big prints, just wanting the
digital files for web or probably a small print in a corporate
newsletter or some such.

I don't have or know how to use external flash though I could try
reflecting the onboard flash with a white card at the ceiling.

I figure I'll do a custom WB setting and I'll bring a tripod though I
doubt that'll be useful for most of the candids. Maybe the 70-200/2.8 VR
could be tried for the VR at 70mm & further back for more candid stuff,
less of the photog in your face.

I probably should bring my laptop to check how it's working after the
first bit.

Any other suggestions? Should I back out & tell them to hire someone
else with flash because this is a hopeless assignment? I enjoy low light
shooting but this will be really rough.

Here's some examples with the 50mm f/1.2:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=2_human-world/4-People&PG=1&PIC=4>
Click for enlargement.
The previous shot is soft due to the 1/3 second shutter speed:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=2_human-world/4-People&PG=1&PIC=3>
This one shows the depth of field better (click for enlargement)
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/Misc/photography/bokeh/2007-04-03-50mm1.2/_PBF5404.jpg>
though that'll be less extreme in a wider group view.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 24 Jul 2007 19:17 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which will
> be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few tables.

What is the destination of the pics:  Xeroxed company newsletter;
4x6" momento prints for the participants; www (how big); framed
8x10's in the company lobby?

If it's a same-old-same-old for the company newsletter
then nobody cares - I would bow to tradition and take the
pictures with an Instamatic 104 and a flash cube.

If it's the framed 8x10 end of the quality spectrum then I would
visit the restaurant a few days before hand, scope out the
lighting and duplicate it at home/studio.  It doesn't have
to be exact but sorta should have the same mix of candles &
incandescent and maybe the same color-range(ish) of wall
coverings.  Then find something that works - on your own
time.

If they are paying then they should get a professional job:
you walk in, take the shots, walk out.  No farting with cables
and laptops.  Either during cocktails or just after desert.

Using flash will just add to the color balance mish-mash,
see flash-cube, above.

Set up - Me it would be a 4x5 and b&w, er, the 20D, 35mm
normalish lens, tall tripod and possibly one of those
collapsible light reflectors.  Bring my own step stool if
the chairs are fancy.  Bokeh be damned.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Paul Furman - 24 Jul 2007 20:16 GMT
>>I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which will
>>be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few tables.
>
> What is the destination of the pics:  Xeroxed company newsletter;
> 4x6" momento prints for the participants; www (how big); framed
> 8x10's in the company lobby?

They just want the digital files, that's all I got as a reply when I
asked so I'm guessing it's email & company newsletter.

> If it's a same-old-same-old for the company newsletter
> then nobody cares - I would bow to tradition and take the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> you walk in, take the shots, walk out.  No farting with cables
> and laptops.  Either during cocktails or just after desert.

OK well, $300 which I figure at $50/hr with 3 hours of shooting & 3
hours of cleaning up the set. So 'professional' but not high budget.
That's why I wonder if they should just hire someone who does this kind
of work to show up for 10 minutes & set up a bunch of gear. I'm going to
sit down & eat dinner too; I know them and have done consulting for them
for other things & they like me & respect my work.

> Using flash will just add to the color balance mish-mash,
> see flash-cube, above.

Good point, thanks for confirming that. Digital may come out OK with
dialed down bounced flash but I wouldn't rely on more than a few
experiments that way.

> Set up - Me it would be a 4x5 and b&w, er, the 20D, 35mm
> normalish lens, tall tripod and possibly one of those
> collapsible light reflectors.  Bring my own step stool if
> the chairs are fancy.

Why get up so high? Isn't it usually more flattering to shoot from below
making the subjects appear 'tall & powerful'? Just a way of getting the
whole table of faces in the frame?

Another consideration is if they don't have a private room, I really
shouldn't even set up a tripod (maybe once briefly) or spend too much
time hovering around with the camera 'like a pro' distracting the customers.

> Bokeh be damned.

I warned them it's going to look 'artsy' & grainy & not like normal
lighting. If it's candle light, it should look like candle light IMO.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Nicholas O. Lindan - 25 Jul 2007 02:34 GMT
> Why get up so high?

Not so high, lens at 7ft. or so.  It is common for a
wedding photog to get up one or two steps on one of
those aluminum-kitchen-folding-ladder-things for group shots.

> Isn't it usually more flattering to shoot from below

Not in my experience, just expansive views of double chins
and nose hair.  People looking down into the lens are scary,
looking up they are cute.

> making the subjects appear 'tall & powerful'?

Er, they're sitting, right?  Though having 1/2 the table
stand behind the seated half is the way to go if you
want everyone in the same shot.  See wedding photog & ladder,
above.

You don't want them 'tall & powerful' - you're taking the
shot for the people who will be looking at the subjects,
and they want to see a lot of 'sweet old dears'.

> Just a way of getting the whole table of faces in the frame?

That too.  Don't have people twist in their chairs to face the
camera.  I would do 1/2 the table at a time, but 1/2 standing
behind the seated ones works fine also.

> Another consideration is if they don't have a private room, I really
> shouldn't even set up a tripod (maybe once briefly) or spend too much time
> hovering around with the camera 'like a pro' distracting the customers.

Pros don't hover: slam-bam-thank-you-maa'm

> I warned them it's going to look 'artsy' & grainy & not like normal
> lighting. If it's candle light, it should look like candle light IMO.

It doesn't have to artsy-fartsy, and aux lighting works with candles:

http://www.nolindan.com/UsenetStuff/olrlxmas.jpg

1-2 second exposure; standing on a step; tripod; longish lens (?).
It's easier to balance light sources in black and white.

If you are real lucky (and it is a good restaurant (not just the food, but
a staff that knows these things)) the auxiliary lighting will
be incandescent turned down with a dimmer so it has the same color
temperature as the candle light.

To me portraits look better in black and white - I think color
takes away from the form of the face.

    *       *       *        *

Whatever you do, don't do:

http://vision.berkeley.edu/wildsoet/Arvo2006/Dinner%20Out.jpg
http://www.caps.ou.edu/reu/reu03/images/DSCN2615.jpg
http://lotos.site.uottawa.ca/people/luigi/Hasan.jpg
http://www.tourismsociety.org/imagestoursoc/photo%20gallery%20dinner%20graham.jpg
http://isi.cbs.nl/Bnews/01b/gani3.jpg

Note the way the on-camera flash enhances the yuck factor...

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Paul Furman - 25 Jul 2007 04:42 GMT
<a bunch of good advice>

Great stuff, thanks much.

> It doesn't have to artsy-fartsy, and aux lighting works with candles:
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> http://www.tourismsociety.org/imagestoursoc/photo%20gallery%20dinner%20graham.jpg
> http://isi.cbs.nl/Bnews/01b/gani3.jpg

Now I'm scared, ack, that's why I'd never just hand them the memory card
(that's the way their request was phrased) eeeeeek!

Here's one with a bunch of your 'standing on a chair' shots:
<http://www.photoshopnews.com/2005/10/25/the-pixel-mafia-2005-dinner>

Whew, OK, it's possible to not make a mess of this :-)

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

ASAAR - 25 Jul 2007 03:18 GMT
>> Set up - Me it would be a 4x5 and b&w, er, the 20D, 35mm
>> normalish lens, tall tripod and possibly one of those
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> making the subjects appear 'tall & powerful'? Just a way of getting the
> whole table of faces in the frame?

 It's usually better to be a little higher than lower, and if there
are pitchers, bottles or flowers on the table, it may be essential
that you take the shots from a slight elevation.

 If, as suggested by someone else, you scout out the restaurant
ahead of time, you could check with the owner to see if the
lighting, at least where your party is seated, could be increased
for a minute or two.  Tipping him/her for the consideration would be
a lot less than renting bulky lighting equipment for a day.

 You may want to take a couple of shots without any increased
lighting just to capture the ambience of the candlelit scene, but if
it's too dim to get good pictures where each person is clearly
identifiable, brighter lights will be a big help.  Don't forget,
even if your dim light pictures are reasonably good, when reproduced
in a newsletter or reduced for the web, the results may be degraded
enough to produce "who was that?" questions when viewed at some
future date.  I think that it's likely that the participants would
prefer pictures where fellow employees are clearly identifiable,
rather than murkier, but more artful shots.

 Also, if you have to use the flash, try to position the camera so
that the people are lined up as parallel to the film plane (sensor)
as possible.  If they're lined up parallel to the axis of the lens
(looking down a long, narrow table), you'll get terrible images,
with near faces blown out and distant faces too dark to see clearly.
This is also a consideration even if you're not using flash, since
if you have to use a fast lens wide open, the DOF probably would be
insufficient to have the near and distant faces sufficiently sharp.
Peter Chant - 24 Jul 2007 19:23 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
> tables. I've agreed to do it but warned them that's really extraordinary
> shooting conditions. I have a 50mm f/1.2 but that's too long for most

Could be a lack of technique and skill on my part (and I am definitely not
pro or intend to be) but under similar conditions, candlelight and v dim
tungsten I've not managed to get many usable shots using Delta 3200 with a
28mm f2.8 hand held (Ricoh GR1v).  Those that I do get are v grany and not
that sharp - not necessarily blurred, but not sharp.

Others may have had more success.

Pete

Signature

http://www.petezilla.co.uk

Frank ess - 24 Jul 2007 20:09 GMT
>> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid)
>> which
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Pete

Seems to me they have expectations of "record" photographs. That's
going to be difficult. I'd make it clear that "I'm an art
photographer. I'll make you some great impressionistic works very
evocative of the occasion. If you want record photos, maybe you could
get someone else..."

Or maybe just do the "Instamatic + flash" for the record and some
"very evocative" works as a bonus. That opens up the noise/grain of
high ISO and the blur of slow shutter, as acceptable.

Sounds like a real challenge, but I bet you can do it well.

Signature

Frank ess

Paul Furman - 24 Jul 2007 20:41 GMT
>>I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
>>will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> 28mm f2.8 hand held (Ricoh GR1v).  Those that I do get are v grany and not
> that sharp - not necessarily blurred, but not sharp.

That's pretty much what I'm expecting, and hope I don't mess something
up but I've done tons of low light nature & street shooting so it should
be OK. I can do 3200 on this camera though it's really just a pushed 1600.

> Others may have had more success.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

John Sheehy - 30 Jul 2007 03:09 GMT
> That's pretty much what I'm expecting, and hope I don't mess something
> up but I've done tons of low light nature & street shooting so it
> should be OK. I can do 3200 on this camera though it's really just a
> pushed 1600.

That's all it is on most cameras.  In the Canon line, the 1Dmk3 is the
first to have ISO 3200 amplification at the photosite.  The 10D and 1Ds
only amplify at the photosite up to ISO 800.

Most Nikons, as far as I can tell, only have one amplification at the
edge of the sensor (none at the photosites; that's a CMOS trick), and all
of the ISO variability is achieved with amplifying the signal again
before hitting the ADC (the D40 seems to be an exception, though, unless
it has very clean readout but very a very noisy secondary amp or ADC).  
This increases the signal-to-ADC_noise level at higher ISOs, but that is
a relatively subtle difference compared to unique photosite
amplifications a la Canon.  If I had a Nikon, I would tend to gamble more
in favor of extended highlights by under-exposing from a lower ISO.  
Quantization from under-exposure is not much of an issue if read noise at
the new virtual bit depth is still about 1.3 ADU or greater.  IOW, if the
read noise is 2.6 ADU or greater, you can under-expose by one stop
without significant loss; 5.2 or greater, 2 stops; 10.2 or greater, 3
stops, etc.  Nikons are generally about 3-4 ADU at ISO 100, and about 15-
60 ADU at ISO 1600 (15 for the D40, and 60 for the D2X).  I'm talking
here about functional RAW data; any given converter can lessen the
ability to get similar quality with under-exposure at a lower ISO by
blocking up the shadows, and other math issues.  Converters are generally
not well written to handle under-exposure, and quantize the results by
working with too little bit depth.

Someone who has the time might make themselves useful by writing a
program that takes DNG files and scales the RAW data; an ISO 400 under-
exposed by 2 stops, for example, could have its RAW data multiplied by 4
within the DNG, and then the user could convert it with more precision,
and blend the results with an unscaled image to get the extra highlight
range, if used.

Signature

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
Floyd L. Davidson - 24 Jul 2007 20:35 GMT
...

>I don't have or know how to use external flash though I
>could try reflecting the onboard flash with a white card
>at the ceiling.

...

>Any other suggestions? Should I back out & tell them to
>hire someone else with flash because this is a hopeless
>assignment? I enjoy low light shooting but this will be
>really rough.

I think there are two options, obtain an external flash
or backout of it.

I shoot parties and many many random bits of life in one
local restaurant (located literally across the road, and
I use it as my living room), and have often done parties
at another.

A lot depends on the particular restaurant.  How evenly
lit it is, how large the room is, how high the ceiling
is, and what color the walls and ceiling are.

But invariably it comes down to how to set up a flash,
because there simply is no other way.  (Restaurants are
probably the only place where I routinely use flash as a
main light.)

Certain tables might have enough light, or might have
light at certain times of the day and not at other
times.  That is useful for my purposes, but probably not
for your assignment.

One trick I've used for parties is to set up three
different flash units, each with an optical trigger, in
the corners of the room at ceiling height.  It basically
dowsed the entire room with light every time an on
camera flash was fired.  That eliminated the typical
harshness of flash, and it also made it easy to sit in
one corner and use a zoom to pick out interesting
compositions.

Flash works best if the ceiling and walls are bright.
And I would not do multiple flash units if others will
be taking pictures...

Usually I use an external flash mounted on the camera,
pointed straight up and with a regular sheet of white
paper wrapped around it and held with a rubber band.
Two small cuts on the side and a slight bend at the mid
point to angle the top half, above the flash, at 20-30
degrees makes a good enough diffusor.  Again, it helps
to have ceilings that are low and highly reflective.

I also power the flash with an external (Quantum)
battery pack, and use a tripod as much as possible.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Paul Furman - 24 Jul 2007 22:13 GMT
>>I don't have or know how to use external flash though I
>>could try reflecting the onboard flash with a white card
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> I use it as my living room), and have often done parties
> at another.

I appreciate & respect your experienced opinion but would you do that
for $300? I could rent some flashes but that also seems awfully
distracting to the group.

> A lot depends on the particular restaurant.  How evenly
> lit it is, how large the room is, how high the ceiling
> is, and what color the walls and ceiling are.

I was told they'd have 'many' candles... and I assume there is at least
some dim overhead light but who knows....

...OK I looked into it & it's a private banquet room with windows &
venetian blinds and it starts at 5:30 so there'll be plenty of light &
the candles are kind of redundant at that time unless the blinds are
closed. This isn't the room but:
<http://www.sharpparkgc.com/pg/photos/sharp_park_golf_course/picture273.aspx>
I suppose I should drop by & look but it doesn't sound like a dark room.

Thanks for your suggestions!

> But invariably it comes down to how to set up a flash,
> because there simply is no other way.  (Restaurants are
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
> I also power the flash with an external (Quantum)
> battery pack, and use a tripod as much as possible.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Floyd L. Davidson - 25 Jul 2007 00:53 GMT
...

>I appreciate & respect your experienced opinion but
>would you do that for $300? I could rent some flashes
>but that also seems awfully distracting to the group.

For off camera work buy some *old* used flash units!
$10 for the optical trigger and $20-30 for the flash.
Nikon's SB-24 is a good example, or get a Nikon SB-26
that has a built in optical trigger.

I have a couple SB-24's, a Vivitar 283, and a couple of
no-name brand X things.  (With anything except the Nikon
models you absolutely to not want to ever directly
trigger it from the camera unless you go to the effort
to first measure the voltage on the trigger to be
certain that it is low enough to not damage the camera.)

These things come in handy every now and then.  Another
helpful thing is to visit a few "second hand" shops and
buy up a few $5 tripods to hold those off camera flash
units.

>> A lot depends on the particular restaurant.  How evenly
>> lit it is, how large the room is, how high the ceiling
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>closed. This isn't the room but:
><http://www.sharpparkgc.com/pg/photos/sharp_park_golf_course/picture273.aspx>

That doesn't look bad!  The walls and ceiling are nice.
That will even out whatever lighting there is, whether
from a window, a flash, or light fixtures.

>I suppose I should drop by & look but it doesn't sound like a dark room.

*Definitely* go take a few pictures in the room before
hand!  And do it at about 6:00 PM.

What with candles and windows, and maybe or maybe not flash,
I'd be using manual exposure control and be "chimping" all
the way!  Especially if you want the candles to look good in
at least some of the pictures.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Paul Furman - 25 Jul 2007 01:32 GMT
>>I appreciate & respect your experienced opinion but
>>would you do that for $300? I could rent some flashes
>>but that also seems awfully distracting to the group.
>
> For off camera work buy some *old* used flash units!
> $10 for the optical trigger and $20-30 for the flash.

I do have an ancient flash, I tried it on my D70 hot shoe a couple times
but was afraid of the voltage problem. I didn't know you could get a
trigger for $10 wow... hmm they are all over ebay "optical flash
trigger" for $5 plus $7 shipping (ebay is so weird) I have an old tripod
too.

> Nikon's SB-24 is a good example, or get a Nikon SB-26
> that has a built in optical trigger.
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> *Definitely* go take a few pictures in the room before
> hand!  And do it at about 6:00 PM.

If I was pursuing this kind of work as a career I would but it's kind of
more like a favor for friends. And it doesn't hurt to become competent
at this sort of thing.

> What with candles and windows, and maybe or maybe not flash,
> I'd be using manual exposure control and be "chimping" all
> the way!  Especially if you want the candles to look good in
> at least some of the pictures.

Ya, I'll be chimping for sure!

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Jim - 27 Jul 2007 04:13 GMT
>>> I appreciate & respect your experienced opinion but
>>> would you do that for $300? I could rent some flashes
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> trigger" for $5 plus $7 shipping (ebay is so weird) I have an old
> tripod too.

Ancient flashes are mot going to cut it on the D70 if it is TTL  These
older flashes were designed for camera systems that measured light
reflected off the film plane.  Digital flash systems are totally
computer controlled.  I have an Nikon N902 and and SB28 flash and a
D70s and an SB800.  The SB800 works really well on the D70s and not so
well on the N90s.  The SB28 works great on the SB28 and not so well on
the D70s unless I use the SB800 as the commander flash and the SB28 as
the slave... that works real well.    An ancient flash if it uses its
on thyristor might work OK (i.e. no TTTL metering, but you have some
trial and error. The problem is the flash sync is much different on
digital than film cameras.  the iTTL flash system in the Nikon digital
series is pretty awesome, but it does require you use the the current
generation of flashes.   My advice, they are paying you 300 bucks,.
take your Visa/Mastecrard and go buy and SB800.  Once you get your 300
bucks send the check to Visa and be done with it.   Problem solved.
This flash is danged near fool proof.

Group photography under candlelight or dim restaurant lighting is
difficult.  And is that what they are looking for?   Personally I would
do a mix.  Use flash to shoot groups at each table, afterward, arrange
all in a single group and use the  SB800 and get a good a group photo..
the SB800 will handle a group of 20 well.. I have used it with my 20mm
F2.8 on my D70s with a group of 40 and it worked well.  The room had an
off white ceiling and I used it a 70 degree bounce with the reflector
card.

Then walk around with your fastest lens and take some natural light
shots singles. pairs and small groups of friends.. just use  a higher  
ISO setting. The group will love it.
Just because the place is dimly lit doesn't mean your photos need to be
also dimly lit.  In fact, the portrait photos should not be.

>> Nikon's SB-24 is a good example, or get a Nikon SB-26
>> that has a built in optical trigger.
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Ya, I'll be chimping for sure!

Signature

Jim     <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo

Paul Furman - 27 Jul 2007 06:37 GMT
Thanks Jim, good suggestions. You've all given me lots to think about.

> Ancient flashes...SB800...
>
> Group photography under candlelight or dim restaurant lighting is
> difficult.  And is that what they are looking for?   Personally I would
> do a mix.

Sounds like there will be good window light at the beginning so I'll do
a formal then & yes I guess the candlelight thing is part of their
vision so I'll do grainy mood shots later too.

> Use flash to shoot groups at each table, afterward, arrange
> all in a single group and use the  SB800 and get a good a group photo..
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Just because the place is dimly lit doesn't mean your photos need to be
> also dimly lit.  In fact, the portrait photos should not be.
Robert Coe - 27 Jul 2007 12:19 GMT
: Thanks Jim, good suggestions. You've all given me lots to think about.
:
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
: a formal then & yes I guess the candlelight thing is part of their
: vision so I'll do grainy mood shots later too.

That works if everybody shows up on time. But if it's the cocktail hour that
begins at 5:30, it may be considerably later before you can get a formal
picture of the whole group. Restaurants don't usually have very high ceilings;
I'd plan on augmenting the ambient lighting with bounce flash.

Bob
William Graham - 25 Jul 2007 00:16 GMT
> ...
>
[quoted text clipped - 54 lines]
> I also power the flash with an external (Quantum)
> battery pack, and use a tripod as much as possible.

Lighting up the whole room also has the advantage of getting detail in the
shadows, and makes for much more pleasing flash pictures, because the
backgrounds aren't just black anymore.......
Bates - 24 Jul 2007 21:40 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Paul Furman Photographyhttp://www.edgehill.net/1
> Bay Natives Nurseryhttp://www.baynatives.com

Paul,

I'm not even close to a professional but I have shot a few weddings in
very low light - some of them in cases where flashes were not
allowed.  I would have suggested the 1.2 50mm but the crop factor may
be a bit of a problem - I was shooting film at the time with my
Minolta and an F1.4 50mm that saved me.  I'd suggest maybe trying a
monopod rather than a tripod since it will be easier to move around as
long as you think you can keep the shutter speed in the 1/15 or 1/30
range.

Of course a flash is going to be a big help here as well as you
mentioned.

The only other thing is that you may want to shoot RAW as you can
adjust the WB after the fact that way and not have to worry about it
too much during shooting.  Otherwise you may find yourself switching
back and forth between a tungsten type setting and a flash setting
depending on how you are shooting.

My best advice (and what I did for the wedding I spoke of) - see if
you can get in the place and take a few test shots (bring a friend as
a model) and see what works best.

I would not back out - you warned them.  Have fun with it.  Worse case
scenario just fire away with the flash - get some candid shots and it
should work out well.

Bates.....
Paul Furman - 24 Jul 2007 22:28 GMT
> ...I'd suggest maybe trying a
> monopod rather than a tripod since it will be easier to move around as
> long as you think you can keep the shutter speed in the 1/15 or 1/30
> range.

I should play around with the monopod idea with my tripod folded up,
it's pretty lightweight. I guess the technique is to just leave the
ballhead loose... I never tried.

> Of course a flash is going to be a big help here as well as you
> mentioned.

Ack, I just hate flash but that's probably mostly because I don't know
how to use it & don't have anything but the built in.

> My best advice (and what I did for the wedding I spoke of) - see if
> you can get in the place and take a few test shots (bring a friend as
> a model) and see what works best.

Yes, that would be ideal but then I'd have to light up a bunch of
candles, etc. Maybe I'll just show 1/2 hour early & experiment.

> I would not back out - you warned them.  Have fun with it.  Worse case
> scenario just fire away with the flash - get some candid shots and it
> should work out well.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Annika1980 - 24 Jul 2007 21:52 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> a 20mm f/2.8 AF though that starts getting so wide it distorts the
> people at the edges. Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)

Sounds like you need the excellent high-ISO capabilities of a Canon.
That old Nikon just ain't gonna get her done.
Paul Furman - 24 Jul 2007 22:21 GMT
>>I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
>>will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Sounds like you need the excellent high-ISO capabilities of a Canon.
> That old Nikon just ain't gonna get her done.

<smack!>

You mean with built in noise reduction right? A 5D or 1Ds has a real
advantage... I'm not so sure there is really much if any difference for
the APS models.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

John McWilliams - 24 Jul 2007 23:38 GMT
>>> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
>>> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> advantage... I'm not so sure there is really much if any difference for
> the APS models.

'Nother thought: Get 'er done early, lower blinds and adjust so they
direct light to the ceiling. Bounce flash.

Good luck!

Signature

john mcwilliams

John Sheehy - 30 Jul 2007 00:45 GMT
Paul Furman <paul-@-edgehill.net> wrote in news:k3upi.4386$Dx2.3773
@newssvr17.news.prodigy.net:

>> Sounds like you need the excellent high-ISO capabilities of a Canon.
>> That old Nikon just ain't gonna get her done.

> <smack!>

> You mean with built in noise reduction right? A 5D or 1Ds has a real
> advantage... I'm not so sure there is really much if any difference for
> the APS models.

There is no noise reduction in Canon RAW; not in the sense that the term
noise reduction is usually used.  Canon carelessly uses the familiar term
"noise reduction" when what they really should be saying is that they are
avoiding some possible sources of read noise.  The camera does not look
at the digitized data, and filter noise.  The noise is as sharp as noise
should be.

Of course, the benefits are in read noise, which means that the biggest
gains are in the deepest shadows, and there is not a significant benefit
for the Canons in the midtones and highlights, even at high ISO.

Signature

<>>< ><<> ><<> <>>< ><<> <>>< <>>< ><<>
  John P Sheehy         <JPS@no.komm>

><<> <>>< <>>< ><<> <>>< ><<> ><<> <>><
ASAAR - 24 Jul 2007 23:07 GMT
> Sounds like you need the excellent high-ISO capabilities of a Canon.

 But *do* use one of the older, more reliable models unless you
don't mind a large number of shots focused on the walls.  :)
SteveB - 25 Jul 2007 01:03 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which will
> be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few tables. I've
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
> <http://www.edgehill.net/1/Misc/photography/bokeh/2007-04-03-50mm1.2/_PBF5404.jpg>
> though that'll be less extreme in a wider group view.

I like the laptop idea.  I just took some photos at a friend's wedding at a
winery in Temecula, California.  It was a cavernous place, with tables set
up among all the wine barrels on stands, and the stainless steel vats.  I
was surprised at how well they came out, what with all the funky lighting,
reflective surfaces, and whatnot.  Can you get access to the area in advance
for some trial shots?

Shoot a lot of pictures, and thank heaven it's not film.

Steve
Pat - 25 Jul 2007 04:50 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> Paul Furman Photographyhttp://www.edgehill.net/1
> Bay Natives Nurseryhttp://www.baynatives.com

First off, be careful when you white balance.  You don't want your
whites to be white.  You want it to be very warm and red.

Dial down your flash and bounce it off the ceiling, but consider
getting something a red, like red or yellow cellophane, and putting it
over your flash to put out a warmer light.  You're on a budget so
you'll have to experiment a bit.

Use your star filter if you have one.

Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to get a bit more
light.
John McWilliams - 25 Jul 2007 06:40 GMT
>> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
>> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> First off, be careful when you white balance.  You don't want your
> whites to be white.  You want it to be very warm and red.

Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto, as you're
shooting RAW.

> Dial down your flash and bounce it off the ceiling, but consider
> getting something a red, like red or yellow cellophane, and putting it
> over your flash to put out a warmer light.  You're on a budget so
> you'll have to experiment a bit.

Wholly unnecessary shooting RAW.

> Use your star filter if you have one.
>
> Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to get a bit more
> light.

Only if you have to. With a big enough flash bounced off ceiling, you
may not have to go below say 1/200.

Signature

John McWilliams

Paul Furman - 25 Jul 2007 08:00 GMT
>>> Any other suggestions?
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto, as you're
> shooting RAW.

I was thinking that's a good suggestion to get the WB set and a little
warmer would be good to maintain the ambiance but then I realized the
sun will be setting over this period so the light will be constantly
changing so I guess it's gonna be auto WB. I have used custom WB before
and it was a big time saver to have the whole shoot come out consistent
but this might be a big chore to adjust each shot.

>> Dial down your flash and bounce it off the ceiling, but consider
>> getting something a red, like red or yellow cellophane, and putting it
>> over your flash to put out a warmer light.  You're on a budget so
>> you'll have to experiment a bit.
>
> Wholly unnecessary shooting RAW.

Well, it can still look strange to have blue on one side of people's
faces & red on the other.

>> Use your star filter if you have one.

I've got some old lenses that give that effect stopped down a bit.

>> Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to get a bit more
>> light.
>
> Only if you have to. With a big enough flash bounced off ceiling, you
> may not have to go below say 1/200.

Not going to have a big flash or probably any flash.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Floyd L. Davidson - 25 Jul 2007 10:53 GMT
>>> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
>>> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
>Wholly unnecessary shooting RAW.

I agree with John's comments above.

>> Use your star filter if you have one.
>> Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Only if you have to. With a big enough flash bounced off
>ceiling, you may not have to go below say 1/200.

This one I also agree with, but it does need some
expansion.

The real trick is to adjust the amount of light provided
by the flash in relation to the light from the candles.
There is no set, cast in concrete, "right" ratio; rather there
are different effects from changing the ratio, and all of
them might be interesting.

To de-emphasize the candles, add more flash.  With
enough, the candles won't even noticeable and might as
well not be there at all.  For some shots, basically to
document who is there and what they were wearing at the
time, that's the ticket.

On the other end of the stick is of course a shot with
almost no flash.  The trick there might be to take a
couple shots without flash to determine an exposure that
just barely keeps the candles within the top end of the
sensors dynamic range, and then add enough flash to
lighten up faces to make people recognizable.  Or may
not that much!  For a picture of the "ambiance" rather
than the people, use less flash.

Lots of creative opportunity there.

Note that one problem with using multiple flash units in
fixed locations, as I suggested earlier, is that you
cannot as easily adjust the amount of light from the
flash to get different lighting ratios from other
sources.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)              floyd@apaflo.com

Pudentame - 26 Jul 2007 15:55 GMT
>> First off, be careful when you white balance.  You don't want your
>> whites to be white.  You want it to be very warm and red.
>
> Nah, don't bother with WB other than to put it on auto, as you're
> shooting RAW.

I've found that to be less than true.

Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change
it in the raw converter.
Adrian Boliston - 26 Jul 2007 18:50 GMT
> Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change it
> in the raw converter.

The main reason I like to get the WB right while shooting is that when I
browse through my RAW files then that it the WB I will see, even though it
can be changed in the RAW editor's settings later.  Browsing through loads
of RAWS with the wrong WB is not so good as they look awful even though they
are correctable.

cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk
JC Dill - 27 Jul 2007 05:39 GMT
>> Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change it
>> in the raw converter.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>of RAWS with the wrong WB is not so good as they look awful even though they
>are correctable.

You have a bad workflow.  Balance the WB on the first image then batch
process all images taken in that lighting to use the same corrected
WB.  If you need to do any batch exposure compensation do that now as
well.  THEN browse.

jc
Robert Coe - 27 Jul 2007 12:35 GMT
: >> First off, be careful when you white balance.  You don't want your
: >> whites to be white.  You want it to be very warm and red.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
: Good white balance while shooting works better; even if you can change
: it in the raw converter.

I've read (here, recently) that there's literally no difference between
getting the WB right and correcting it later. The assertion was that the
camera records exactly the same image, but sends along a parameter that
informs the raw converter of what the photographer intended. Changing that
parameter on the computer is no different from changing it on the camera.
(Unless you were going to do direct printing from the camera, which you
aren't.)

Bob
Paul Furman - 27 Jul 2007 16:16 GMT
> : >> First off, be careful when you white balance.  You don't want your
> : >> whites to be white.  You want it to be very warm and red.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> (Unless you were going to do direct printing from the camera, which you
> aren't.)

I've read the opposite but still it's trivial in most cases. If the
lighting is consistent, it's really a time saver to use a preset/custom
WB but this is going to span from late afternoon through sunset so every
few minutes will be different.

But for discussion, I kind of like the idea of an intentionally warmer
WB for the candle light. For that, I guess I would shoot a custom WB
from a blue/green white card?

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

Annika1980 - 27 Jul 2007 16:57 GMT
> If the lighting is consistent, it's really a time saver to use a preset/custom
> WB but this is going to span from late afternoon through sunset so every
> few minutes will be different.

Sounds like you need a WhiBal.  Just keep it in your pocket and take a
photo of it whenever the light changes.

http://www.rawworkflow.com/products/whibal/index.html
Nicholas O. Lindan - 27 Jul 2007 20:11 GMT
> But for discussion, I kind of like the idea of an intentionally warmer WB
> for the candle light. For that, I guess I would shoot a custom WB from a
> blue/green white card?

Can't really get an accurate 'candle light' look by playing with color
balance - or at least I can't, not to my satisfaction.  You can make
a white that looks candle lit but any strong colors come out looking
distinctly odd and pale skin can go bright orange.  If this is the
only way to do it then I would tweak for a candle-light look on skin
and let the WB be damned.

If the incandescent light is swamping the candles, and you can't turn
the lights down, then I would use a filter.   A 'straw' or 'amber'
Rosco filter does a pretty good job of converting incandescent to
candle-light.  Rosco's $5 'sampler' books are nice for emergency or
1-of filtering tasks - I just cut a square off with a pair of scissors
and drop into a filter holder.  They used to give the small ones away
free but the filter size just fit the holder on a Vivitar 283 flash, when
word got around Rosco was swamped with requests for sample books.

If not mungged Rosco filters are optically perfectly OK for putting
over the lens.

There are a zillion* 'amber' and 'straw' colors, Rosco's web site should
have recommendations.

--

* 'Zillion': A number larger than the author wishes to deal with,
 variously equal to 2 through a googolplex.

Signature

Nicholas O. Lindan, Cleveland, Ohio
Darkroom Automation: F-Stop Timers, Enlarging Meters
http://www.darkroomautomation.com/index.htm
n o lindan at ix dot netcom dot com

Paul Furman - 28 Jul 2007 03:08 GMT
>>But for discussion, I kind of like the idea of an intentionally warmer WB
>>for the candle light. For that, I guess I would shoot a custom WB from a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> If the incandescent light is swamping the candles, and you can't turn
> the lights down, then I would use a filter.  

On DSLRs, filters don't work (*while using auto WB). I guess the answer
is to set it to daylight... that works nicely for sunsets so the camera
doesn't try to whiten out the nice colors. I get your point about skin
color though, maybe a bad idea.

*filters are supposed to sometimes help a bit with digital if you aren't
using auto WB... even for raw... opinions seem to vary on that.

> A 'straw' or 'amber'
> Rosco filter does a pretty good job of converting incandescent to
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> * 'Zillion': A number larger than the author wishes to deal with,
>   variously equal to 2 through a googolplex.

Signature

Paul Furman Photography
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives Nursery
http://www.baynatives.com

mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 25 Jul 2007 11:18 GMT
> First off, be careful when you white balance.  You don't want your
> whites to be white.  You want it to be very warm and red.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Use your tripod or monopod and get down to 1/30th to get a bit more
> light.

Well done Pat - I was browsing down to see if anyone suggested gels or
cellophane on the flash.  I've had some success with this idea (using
orange/yellow cellophane, never tried red), but you'll need to use the
flash with care (ie not much or it will look faked) and bounced -
depending on what is available.  If you can get close to the natural
tungsten/candle colour, then it can work.  But practice first!

I disagree with John here - balancing the flash colour *is* still
worthwhile when shooting raw.  It isn't an overall colour cast that is
the problem, it is the colour *mix* - if you don't, different *areas*
will be getting different casts, and RAW doesn't help there unless you
are going to mask them out and deal with them separately -yeuch!  The
fewer differently balanced light sources you have, the better.
David Ruether - 25 Jul 2007 14:49 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at
> a few tables. I've agreed to do it but warned them that's really extraordinary shooting conditions. I have a 50mm f/1.2 but that's
> too long for most cases on crop frame D200, otherwise I have f/2 lenses at 28mm & 35mm and a 20mm f/2.8 AF though that starts
> getting so wide it distorts the people at the edges. Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)
[...]

I used to shoot often large groups of people in crowded rooms by assembling
them in one spot (no careful arranging necessary - just make sure all faces
are visible and the group ends are brought in far enough), with a seated row
in the front if necessary, with a 28mm or 35mm equivalent FL lens, up two
steps on a step ladder, with two on-camera flashes (one pointed *slightly* up,
to shade off the lower foreground [Nikon flashes work well for this, with soft
edge coverage roll-off], and the other pointed at the ceiling), with a low enough
shutter speed and wide enough aperture used to catch some ambient lighting
(the color differences don't hurt in this kind of shot - they add interest without
messing up overall color balance). Fix up the result the best you can for what
you want and deliver it on a CD along with the invoice (BTW, take at least 4
photos in fairly rapid succession - you may need to substitute heads to lose
closed eyes or bad expressions in the best overall image). Done.
Signature

David Ruether
d_ruether@hotmail.com
http://www.donferrario.com/ruether
(For some laughs, see www.donferrario.com/ruether/menu.htm)

C J Campbell - 25 Jul 2007 15:58 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
> will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> digital files for web or probably a small print in a corporate
> newsletter or some such.

Then who cares about the quality? Pump up the ISO and take a very
grainy picture. That is the effect they want, anyway. And take a couple
with the fish eye. You might be surprised at how much people like it.

I would not worry much about edge distortion. You can correct some
distortion in Photoshop or just leave it.

As for candids, you really need an external flash, or the restaurant
lighting is going to make everybody look like Boris Karloff.

> .

Signature

Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Adrian Boliston - 25 Jul 2007 21:43 GMT
> I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which will
> be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few tables. I've
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> though that starts getting so wide it distorts the people at the edges.
> Even a 10.5mm f/2.8 fisheye :-)

I've done a few candle lit company meals (unpaid!) and have used my 50/1.4
AFD, and got pretty good results at ISO 1600 with no flash.  I have only
really done candid type shots, but a lot of people seem to think this is
better than formal pictures which don't interest me much (unpaid remember!).
There often tends to be some very low lighting as well as the candles, which
seems to help a bit.   The 50/1.2 is manual focus, so I'm not sure how easy
it would be to focus in such low light, as I've tended to use AF mode, even
though it will pick the wrong focus sometimes, but the key is to take loads
of shots, which is fine without flash as people won't notice you much.

cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk
dave@east-englewood.us - 27 Jul 2007 07:09 GMT
>I've been asked to photograph a company retirement party (paid) which
>will be about 20 people in a restaurant under candlelight at a few
>tables. ------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------

>----------------------------Should I back out & tell them to hire someone
>else with flash because this is a hopeless assignment? I enjoy low light
>shooting but this will be really rough.

You need two or three small slave flashes. Wolf/Ritz might still sell
them for twenty bucks. They are just right for a long wedding party
main table. Play around with them until you are comfortable, before
the job. The units are very small and will get ten or fifteen flashes
from a pair of AAA cells.You can prop them or tape them to a chair
back or what ever is handy.
 
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