Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2007
Sony Alpha 100 DSLR snapshot at night - Venus and Moon
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FlintStone@nospamnowhere.com - 21 Apr 2007 00:54 GMT http://www.pbase.com/flintstonestudio/image/77432804
In case you want to see the results of 2 seconds at f6.3, ISO 200, pointed up at the night sky.
I used the Sony 18-200 3.5-6.3 lens, (@135mm) and a very good tripod...
Venus and the Moon are quite close these days...
RichA - 22 Apr 2007 17:09 GMT > http://www.pbase.com/flintstonestudio/image/77432804 > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Venus and the Moon are quite close these days... Venus is brighter than the Moon (surface area) so I would expose for the Moon itself, something around 1/125th of a second at f8 or so, depending on the phase. With the lens at 200mm, you should be able to spot meter the Moon. If you can, expose about 1 stop over indicated. That way you'll avoid massively burning out the images.
Alan Browne - 22 Apr 2007 22:49 GMT > Venus is brighter than the Moon (surface area) so I would expose for > the Moon itself, something around > 1/125th of a second at f8 or so, depending on the phase. With the > lens at 200mm, you should be able to spot meter the Moon. If you can, > expose about 1 stop over indicated. That way you'll avoid massively > burning out the images. If there was any need of proof that you know nothing at all about photography, the above is probably it.
The moon should be shot "fastest" at about sunny 16. For ISO 100 that would be f/16 1/100. 2/3 to 1 stop less light will work well in most cases.
1/125 at f/8 is a stop too much light.
RichA - 23 Apr 2007 04:43 GMT On Apr 22, 5:49 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > Venus is brighter than the Moon (surface area) so I would expose for > > the Moon itself, something around [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > 1/125 at f/8 is a stop too much light. It depends on the PHASE of the Moon, clueless. The surface brightness varies with phase. Besides, I was ballparking since you should always bracket a subject like that. http://www.shaystephens.com/moon_calc.php
Stop acting like a little B----- because I criticized your precious Pentax 2000 years ago.
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2007 15:09 GMT > On Apr 22, 5:49 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > It depends on the PHASE of the Moon, clueless. You're the one suggesting that someone expose MORE than indicated to "avoid massively burning out the image". That's clueless.
> The surface brightness varies with phase. No it does not. The lit part is always the same brightness, there is simply less of it (surface) in the view finder.
The only thing less is the amount of moonlight reaching the earth so a moonlit scene on earth would need more exposure.
The amount of sunlight reaching the moon does not change with phase, and that is what is what needs to be exposed even if but the slimmest sliver. The point is to record detail not a blob of light.
> Besides, I was ballparking since you should always bracket a subject > like that. The hoary old adage of Sunny-16 is the starting point, bracketing or not. Your advice was 1.7 stops over from that starting point.
> http://www.shaystephens.com/moon_calc.php > > Stop acting like a little B----- because I criticized your precious > Pentax 2000 years ago. As it has been clearly shown that you're not a photographer, what you criticize is about as relevant as ... you. Not at all relevant.
RichA - 23 Apr 2007 17:18 GMT On Apr 23, 10:09 am, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > On Apr 22, 5:49 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > You're the one suggesting that someone expose MORE than indicated to > "avoid massively burning out the image". That's clueless. You overexposure by a certain amount because the moon is NOT a 16% greycard. You want it to look white while still retaining detail. Additionally, shots of the Moon underexposed sometimes show noise which can be avoided with a correct exposure.
> As it has been clearly shown that you're not a photographer, what you > criticize is about as relevant as ... you. Not at all relevant. Here's one of my Moon shots, let see yours:
http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/65063908
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2007 17:45 GMT > On Apr 23, 10:09 am, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Additionally, shots of the Moon underexposed sometimes show noise > which can be avoided with a correct exposure. That's not what you said. YOU said to expose more to avoid burning. You did not refer to metering (which is also a dead wrong way to shoot the moon in the first place.
>>As it has been clearly shown that you're not a photographer, what you >>criticize is about as relevant as ... you. Not at all relevant. > > Here's one of my Moon shots, let see yours: > > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/65063908 I don't shoot the moon. I have in the past with a 75-300 lens and the result, while well exposed, is simply not sharp. Other than that I'm totally disinterested in the subject.
Telling people "to expose more" to "avoid burning out" is simply wrong. Admit that.
RichA - 23 Apr 2007 22:26 GMT On Apr 23, 12:45 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > On Apr 23, 10:09 am, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > result, while well exposed, is simply not sharp. Other than that I'm > totally disinterested in the subject. Then why bother chiming in at all?
Alan Browne - 23 Apr 2007 22:32 GMT > Then why bother chiming in at all? To warn people about your very bad advice.
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RichA - 24 Apr 2007 01:40 GMT On Apr 23, 5:32 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> > Then why bother chiming in at all? > > To warn people about your very bad advice.
>From someone who puts all his faith in "sunny 16." Does that date back to when people didn't even have built-in camera meters let alone spot metering?
Alan Browne - 24 Apr 2007 01:47 GMT > On Apr 23, 5:32 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> > wrote: [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Does that date back to when people didn't even have built-in camera > meters let alone spot metering? Yep. http://www.pbase.com/shootin/image/71244103 (Actually opend up 2/3 stop as the sun was setting, but didn't use a meter). Slide film.
Anonymous # 998792 - 24 Apr 2007 05:50 GMT >> Then why bother chiming in at all? > > To warn people about your very bad advice. For some obsure reason you are targeting Rich and losing the fight Alan. Why not apply your own criticism of him to yourself? I have yet to see a photo of yours to equal many of Rich's. If he claimed you were a shitty photographer would be more poignant. But then he has more taste than to sink to your level.
FWIW his moon shot is one of the few I've seen that I would consider exemplary yet you don't even have the grace to acknowledge it as good or even fair photo. Why is that?
First off you abuse him about not being a photographer and when he post evidence his is, you change tack and try to continue your lame attack on him. If you contributed 10% of what Rich does to this group you'd have some credibility but just because you participated in it's origin does not give you any right whatsoever to critisize those who make it what it is today. Get a life and lay off the flame baits.
RichA - 23 Apr 2007 22:43 GMT On Apr 23, 12:45 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> Telling people "to expose more" to "avoid burning out" is simply wrong. > Admit that. I admit it, I worded it wrong.
FlintStone@nospamnowhere.com - 24 Apr 2007 02:55 GMT >Here's one of my Moon shots, let see yours: > >http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/65063908 Thats a nice photo... what lens did you use?
RichA - 24 Apr 2007 20:27 GMT On Apr 23, 9:55 pm, FlintSt...@nospamnowhere.com wrote:
> >Here's one of my Moon shots, let see yours: > > >http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/65063908 > > Thats a nice photo... what lens did you use? Thanks. 1000mm f8 with an Olympus E-1 DSLR. 2000mm equivalent. The trick with the Moon is to use as large a telephoto as you've got (max 2000mm with a 35mm format which just fits it into the frame) and to shoot on a night when the stars don't twinkle. This indicates the "seeing" is steady and the pictures will be sharper.
Jeff R. - 25 Apr 2007 04:03 GMT > Here's one of my Moon shots, let see yours: > > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/65063908 Great work. Congrats. Speaks more than a thousand words.
-- Jeff R.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 24 Apr 2007 00:28 GMT >> The surface brightness varies with phase. > > No it does not. The lit part is always the same brightness, there is > simply less of it (surface) in the view finder. (Alan, I bet you know most of this; I'm just trying to write up a general explanation for everyone.)
The surface brightness of the moon does vary with phase. The areas close to the terminator are darker, thus lower in surface brightness. This is a cosine of the solar altitude effect. As the sun gets closer to the horizon, the photons per square meter per second decreases on the moon just like on the earth (and all other planets too). The crescent moon, e.g. the one in the image in this thread has most sunlight incident at a low angle, so the surface brightness is low, and decreasing closer to the terminator.
As we get closer to full moon, the sun will be illuminating the sun from behind us as we look at the moon. In this case the cosine incidence effect is compensated by our view as we look toward the terminator (which is at the edge of the lunar disk) so we see more area per pixel (or square angular area) near the edge of the moon. The increase in surface area per pixel cancels the decrease in photons per square meter so the moon's surface brightness does not change over the disk as it does at other phases.
Then at very close to full moon, the micro shadows cast by grains in the lunar soil decrease from this perspective causing the full moon to appear even brighter. The is called the opposition surge (not to be confused with the other "surge" going on right now) or opposition effect. This effect can also be seen with soils on Earth when you see a halo around the shadow cast by your head. Another factor contributing to the opposition effect is constructive interference of light making the brightness even higher (this was controversial a decade or so ago but has now been proven so all the research scientists in this area pretty much agree).
The moon has a reflectance lower than the average reflectance of the Earth, so the average exposure is more like sunny f/11 rule, but when there is low solar incidence angle, exposures become longer (when the moon is a crescent), and shorter near full moon when the opposition surge is significant.
Then guess when happens when the moon is within about 2 degrees of full moon? Is it bright due to the opposition surge? No, it becomes very dark! It's an eclipse! ;-)
Roger
Alan Browne - 24 Apr 2007 00:32 GMT >>> The surface brightness varies with phase. >> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a low angle, so the surface brightness is low, and decreasing > closer to the terminator. I accept that, but I don't agree that the above results in more than 2/3 stop of difference in exposure for 1/2 or 1/4 moon shot. Rich's post went 2 stops beyond the common "rule".
Never mind suggesting an "increase in exposure" to "avoid burnout". He now "retracts" that, of course.
> As we get closer to full moon, the sun will be illuminating the sun from > behind us as we look at the moon. In this case the cosine incidence [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > Roger
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RichA - 24 Apr 2007 01:55 GMT On Apr 23, 7:32 pm, Alan Browne <alan.bro...@FreelunchVideotron.ca> wrote:
> >>> The surface brightness varies with phase. > [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > stop of difference in exposure for 1/2 or 1/4 moon shot. Rich's post > went 2 stops beyond the common "rule". The Moon (right now) is a crescent. In a few days it will be full. People can experiment.
> Never mind suggesting an "increase in exposure" to "avoid burnout". He > now "retracts" that, of course. Because that part was a mistatement.
Fred McKenzie - 25 Apr 2007 04:51 GMT In article <462D4136.4070808@qwest.net>, "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net> wrote:
> Then at very close to full moon, the micro shadows cast by grains > in the lunar soil decrease from this perspective causing the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > This effect can also be seen with soils on Earth when you see a halo > around the shadow cast by your head. Roger-
I think you said it, but I'm not sure! I understood the full moon's surface has an effect of retro-reflection, when light is reflected more strongly back along the path from which it originates.
You mention your head's halo. An amateur pilot told me there was a similar effect around an airplane's shadow as viewed from the airplane.
Fred
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 Apr 2007 04:22 GMT > In article <462D4136.4070808@qwest.net>, > "Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark)" <username@qwest.net> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > surface has an effect of retro-reflection, when light is reflected more > strongly back along the path from which it originates. Yes, the shadow of the grains is a "retro-reflection" effect, as is the constructive interference of light I also discussed. In retro-reflectors, the design is specifically made to reflect light back using a specific geometry. In natural surfaces, it is random orientations that do it.
> You mention your head's halo. An amateur pilot told me there was a > similar effect around an airplane's shadow as viewed from the airplane. Yes, I've seen this multiple times from aircraft, most commonly near takeoff and landings when the ground isn't too far away. You can see it with vegetation too. I've seen it over trees, and grasses as well as soils. An opposition surge can be quite strong with dew on plants. I photographed some nice ones in Tanzania on the Serengeti this January.
Roger
M-M - 24 Apr 2007 04:56 GMT > The amount of sunlight reaching the moon does not change with phase, and > that is what is what needs to be exposed even if but the slimmest > sliver. The above statement is incorrect.
First, at a "slim sliver" you are only seeing the terminator portion which is really twilight. At a larger phase, the round side is much brighter. When full, the entire moon is lit like high noon.
Also, exposure not only depends on the phase but how high in the sky the moon is. When low, you are looking through a lot more atmosphere.
Getting back to the original post, I believe the exposure was correct. Mr. Flintstone wanted to capture the "old moon in the new moon's arms" and overexposing the sliver was the only way to do that.
Here is a moon photo I just took tonight:
<http://www.mhmyers.com/d80/DSCN3780w.jpg>
And here is a page I made about photographing the moon:
<http://www.mhmyers.com/moon.tn.html>
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David Kilpatrick - 24 Apr 2007 08:05 GMT > Getting back to the original post, I believe the exposure was correct. > Mr. Flintstone wanted to capture the "old moon in the new moon's arms" > and overexposing the sliver was the only way to do that. It's not often you get the Ballad of Sir Patrick Spens quoted in a photographic NG :-)
David
Alan Browne - 25 Apr 2007 00:03 GMT >>The amount of sunlight reaching the moon does not change with phase, and >>that is what is what needs to be exposed even if but the slimmest [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Also, exposure not only depends on the phase but how high in the sky the > moon is. When low, you are looking through a lot more atmosphere. The above is correct IMO insomuch as compared to RichA's 1.7 stop overexposure.
For a 1/4 moon, the exposure is no different than 1/1.
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M-M - 25 Apr 2007 00:43 GMT > For a 1/4 moon, the exposure is no different than 1/1. It depends on what you are exposing for. If you want to expose for the shadows at the terminator you will have to blow out the round side.
True though, a quarter moon in general would be exposed the same as a full moon, all other things being equal. But the poster was referring to a "slim sliver" which is always close to the horizon and would require a longer exposure also because much less of it is bright.
A small crescent can never be high in the sky at night.
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Alan Browne - 25 Apr 2007 00:54 GMT >>For a 1/4 moon, the exposure is no different than 1/1. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > full moon, all other things being equal. But the poster was referring to > a "slim sliver" which is always close to the horizon and would require a http://www.pbase.com/flintstonestudio/image/77432804
Is only a hair less than 1/4 moon.
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M-M - 25 Apr 2007 01:07 GMT > > True though, a quarter moon in general would be exposed the same as a > > full moon, all other things being equal. But the poster was referring to [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Is only a hair less than 1/4 moon. ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
The moon in that photo was 1 or 2 days old. A quarter moon is 7 days old. That moon is very close to new.
Maybe it looks like a quarter since the "sliver" is way overexposed.
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Alan Browne - 25 Apr 2007 01:30 GMT >>>True though, a quarter moon in general would be exposed the same as a >>>full moon, all other things being equal. But the poster was referring to [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Maybe it looks like a quarter since the "sliver" is way overexposed. That moon is about 1/5 at least.
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Alan Browne - 25 Apr 2007 01:35 GMT >>>> True though, a quarter moon in general would be exposed the same as >>>> a full moon, all other things being equal. But the poster was [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > That moon is about 1/5 at least. Okay, I take that back. It is really overblown making it look like more than it is.
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M-M - 25 Apr 2007 03:32 GMT > That moon is about 1/5 at least. It's 2 days old. 1/15th. It was taken on April 19 and the new moon was April 17.
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Alan Browne - 26 Apr 2007 00:32 GMT >>That moon is about 1/5 at least. > > It's 2 days old. 1/15th. It was taken on April 19 and the new moon was > April 17. See my other reply. I recanted.
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Tony Polson - 26 Apr 2007 12:07 GMT >> That moon is about 1/5 at least. > >It's 2 days old. 1/15th. Isn't 2 days old actually 1/7th?
14 days of waxing + 14 days of waning = 28 day cycle.
2 days out of 14 is 1/7th.
M-M - 26 Apr 2007 12:19 GMT > Isn't 2 days old actually 1/7th? > > 14 days of waxing + 14 days of waning = 28 day cycle. > > 2 days out of 14 is 1/7th. The waning moon is from 14-28 days old.
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Tony Polson - 26 Apr 2007 13:03 GMT >> Isn't 2 days old actually 1/7th? >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >The waning moon is from 14-28 days old. That's what I said. 14 days to wax, 14 days to wane.
Therefore 2 days into waxing is 2/14ths, or 1/7th.
M-M - 26 Apr 2007 14:44 GMT > That's what I said. 14 days to wax, 14 days to wane. > > Therefore 2 days into waxing is 2/14ths, or 1/7th. By your logic, a 7-day moon would be 1/2.
And a 21-day moon? 1-1/2??
I'm done with this silly argument
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Tony Polson - 26 Apr 2007 20:46 GMT >> That's what I said. 14 days to wax, 14 days to wane. >> >> Therefore 2 days into waxing is 2/14ths, or 1/7th. > >By your logic, a 7-day moon would be 1/2. Yes, after seven days it is half moon.
00 days - new moon (moon dark) 07 days - half moon (left half of disc illuminated) 14 days - full moon (fully illuminated) 21 days - half moon (right half of disc illuminated) 28 days - new moon again - cycle repeats every 28 days
>And a 21-day moon? 1-1/2?? No, don't be silly! It is half moon (see above).
>I'm done with this silly argument Thank goodness for that!
It is easy to get confused where the terms "first quarter" and "third quarter" are sometimes used to describe 7 and 21 days into the 28 day cycle. Those terms may correctly describe the fraction of the cycle that has been completed, but they are misleading in practice because the moon is half illuminated, hence "half moon".
Try these web sites for a more detailed explanation:
http://www.enchantedlearning.com/subjects/astronomy/moon/Phases.shtml (scroll down to "HALF MOON" in the centre of the page)
http://www.astro.wisc.edu/~dolan/java/MoonPhase.html (in the drop down box marked "Point of view", select "Earth view")
M-M - 26 Apr 2007 22:18 GMT > 07 days - half moon (left half of disc illuminated) I thought I was done.
A 7-day moon is called a first quarter to everyone else on earth. You can call it whatever you like.
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FlintStone@nospamnowhere.com - 25 Apr 2007 02:29 GMT >> The amount of sunlight reaching the moon does not change with phase, and >> that is what is what needs to be exposed even if but the slimmest [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >Mr. Flintstone wanted to capture the "old moon in the new moon's arms" >and overexposing the sliver was the only way to do that. That's right... I took about a dozen photos then, and that one had the best exposure of the dark part of the moon. I didn't realize it was Earths light but of course it has to be, since there is no atmosphere!
>Here is a moon photo I just took tonight: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ><http://www.mhmyers.com/moon.tn.html> Alan Browne - 22 Apr 2007 22:52 GMT > http://www.pbase.com/flintstonestudio/image/77432804 > > In case you want to see the results of 2 seconds at f6.3, ISO 200, pointed up at > the night sky. The moon is completely burned out. No detail at all.
The moon needs a sunny-16 exposure for the moon. eg: for ISO 200 about f/22 1/100. Another stop less would not hurt.
Cheers, Alan
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FlintStone@nospamnowhere.com - 23 Apr 2007 03:44 GMT >> http://www.pbase.com/flintstonestudio/image/77432804 >> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >Cheers, >Alan Hi Alan. yes I know that, I put up that picture to show the dark circle of the moon exposed, and a few stars, and the fact that there is no noise apparent in the black.
I took a bunch of pics, I'll see if there is one closer to normal exposure!
(I was quite rushed during that time...)
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