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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / April 2007Scams in progress on eBay
Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 You can have a Canon EOS 1DMkII or a EOS 5D for 99 Euro (US$ 132). And this guy has a ton of this stuff for sale! Only one hitch: Poor guy's lost his credit card so he can only accept payment through Western Union or wire transfer to some bank in mainland China. I informed eBay's "Security Center" about kyou2004's auctions about four hours ago, by no action so far. I am posting a warning here on the off chance that some of the those that has already bitten and think that somebody in China will sell them a 1DMkII for $132 will think twice before wiring any money. See also: http://hannemyr.com/links/webscams.html  Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The same people who would send the money are the ones they have labels on drain cleaners for saying, "Not to be taken internally." Are they really worth saving, or should Darwin be left to his work? > Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > think twice before wiring any money. See also: > http://hannemyr.com/links/webscams.html Good alert. I live in southwest Florida and we, unfortunately, hosted a big-time ebay scammer last year. They operated legit for a period to get high ratings and then went to the dark side. Great buys, but they emailed their bidders/victims excuses for needing personal checks and wire transfers. They got away with millions and the customers did not get kissed. Forget about personal checks and WU and that ilk! Just say no. >> Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: >> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Forget about personal checks and WU and that ilk! Just say no. Maybe I'm missing something here...what is the problem with sending them a personal check? Assuming you aren't dumb enough to overnight it to them or tell them your mother's maiden name, you'd be using the US Mail which would make it mail fraud which is a federal crime which gets investigated and resolved REAL quick. (I've filed two mail fraud complaints and both were taken care of and I had my money back within a month.) Is there some other danger here that I am unaware of? >>> Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on >>> eBay: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > taken care of and I had my money back within a month.) Is there > some other danger here that I am unaware of? If he's a pro, he can make it very difficult for the postal inspectors to find. Never depend on law enforcement to get you money back, unless you can afford to lose it. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin > >>> Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on > >>> eBay: [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > taken care of and I had my money back within a month.) Is there > > some other danger here that I am unaware of? Someone reported an Ebay situation here where the "legit address" was a mailbox in a copy center in Canada. Good luck tracking that owner down. > If he's a pro, he can make it very difficult for the postal > inspectors to find. Never depend on law enforcement to get you > money back, unless you can afford to lose it. > Maybe I'm missing something here...what is the problem with sending > them a personal check? Assuming you aren't dumb enough to overnight [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > back within a month.) Is there some other danger here that I am > unaware of? Have you looked at the auction I listed? The "seller" is a resident in China. Good luck on getting the feds tracking down a mail fraud organized by some gang resident in mainland China. Add to that that the scammers are most certainly clearing the cheques with the assistance from a rogue Chinese bank that will do nada to assist US law enforcement in their enquiries. Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Maybe I'm missing something here...what is the problem with sending > them a personal check? Assuming you aren't dumb enough to overnight [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > back within a month.) Is there some other danger here that I am > unaware of? You've been dealing with amateur thieves, not professional gangsters. There are several problems with personal cheques: 1. The recipient may be a mail-drop. 2. The cheque may have been cleared off-shore, by a rogue bank. 3. The feds find the recipient, but he is pennyless, or he turns out to be a "mule", and has already forwarded your funds to off-shore gangsters. Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Maybe I'm missing something here...what is the problem with sending > > them a personal check? Assuming you aren't dumb enough to overnight [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > to be a "mule", and has already forwarded your funds to off-shore > gangsters. 4. The recipient has all the information needed to run an electronic check transaction of *whatever amount they want*, there's no need to process the check for just the amount you wrote it for. Sure, after it clears your account you can yell "fraud" all you want, but by then they have withdrawn the money and skipped town. Signaturejosh@phred.org is Joshua Putnam <http://www.phred.org/~josh/> Braze your own bicycle frames. See <http://www.phred.org/~josh/build/build.html> > a federal crime which gets investigated and > resolved REAL quick. Unless you're a Democrat congresscritter from Loseriana. > Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > through Western Union or wire transfer to some bank in mainland > China. Though I agree with you that this guy is a scammer the auction format you see is a Dutch auction and the price does have potential to climb should more bidders join in. Obviously, this doesn't matter since his goal is to have you e-mal him for a better off eBay deal. Reporting these scams are a total waste of time since they have unlimited phished accounts to start over. The only way to protect yourself against getting scammed on eBay is to only pay by PayPal with a CC funded payment. It is totally and utterly foolish to pay any other way. If you don't use a CC funded PayPal payment you deserve to get scammed for being overwhelmingly stupid. Rita >> Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: >> http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > >Rita How about this. Don't shop on eBay? I mean seriously folks. 25 years ago you took your chances when you went to Times Square after dark to buy electronics and cameras. Why? Because it's where the thieves and muggers KNEW you would be! Best defense when your enemy knows where you are is don't be there! First thing I would EVER demand if I were to buy anything off eBay is a direct communications and a way to always get back in touch with them. Then it would be ONLY thought postal money order that I could fed ex to a valid address. To hell with Pay Pal. I don't trust them any further than I would trust a guy selling a D1MKII for $132!!! >>> Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on >>> eBay: [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Pal. I don't trust them any further than I would trust a guy > selling a D1MKII for $132!!! Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal that you would not expect from eBay. Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their policies are. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin <snip> >> How about this. Don't shop on eBay? >> [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their >policies are. I suspected as much but never had confirmation. Stands to reason though. The bank/financial institution that will make a fortune will be the one that gets smart enough to offer a credit card that is not linked to any of the holders OTHER personal information in any way and useable only online! > <snip> > [quoted text clipped - 28 lines] > to any of the holders OTHER personal information in any way and > useable only online! Considering the use of a credit card is, in fact, an unsecured loan (often with all the commensurate fees), that's not gonna happen. Signaturejer email reply - I am not a 'ten' >> <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > loan (often with all the commensurate fees), that's not gonna > happen. There are credit card providers who give one-use credit card numbers that only _they_ can link to other personal information. So if the web site you bought from is cracked, the thief doesn't get anything useful from you (other than what you put in, like an address, if you ordered something to be delivered). Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin > Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal that > you would not expect from eBay. > > Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal > protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their > policies are. Guess again...did you know that many (most?) credit card issuers will not reverse a charge when you've cancelled a service that does a recurring charge to your account. I had that problem a couple of times where I'd cancelled (in accordance with terms of agreement) and continued to get charged, could not get it reversed or stopped by either the company presenting the charge or the credit card issuer until I got a State Attorney General involved. Don't be too trusting of credit cards and credit card companies. I had Discover Card run a charge through on a cancelled account. The account had been canceled for three years. What does canceled mean ? Not what you think. Ever read the tiny print on the contract ? - and the tiny print updates they send you every so often ? Their contracts change often and you agree to the new terms just by using the card even once after they send you the fine print notice. The terms and changes are never in your favor. > I had Discover Card run a charge through on a cancelled account. The > account had been canceled for three years. What does canceled mean ? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > the card even once after they send you the fine print notice. The > terms and changes are never in your favor. For Christ's sake! Why would anyone use Discover Card? They had the worst track record for consumer protection till about eight years ago when they were forced to comply with federal fair credit guidelines. It's monumentally stupid to use Discover though they are better now. Rita >> Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal that >> you would not expect from eBay. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Attorney General involved. Don't be too trusting of credit cards and > credit card companies. Choose your companies carefully. The only card I have is a USAA card, and the one time I had an experience identical to those you describe here, I wrote them a letter and they stopped payment immediately. -- www.mattclara.com >> Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal >> protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > until I got a State Attorney General involved. Don't be too trusting > of credit cards and credit card companies. Not true, it depends on what type of transaction it is and how it was done. Rita >> Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal >> that you would not expect from eBay. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > will not reverse a charge when you've cancelled a service that > does a recurring charge to your account. How is that, in any way, related to an eBay scam? > I had that problem a > couple of times where I'd cancelled (in accordance with terms of [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > involved. Don't be too trusting of credit cards and credit card > companies. In any industry, there are a.sholes and incompetent crooks. That doesn't alter the law. In point of fact, if the law didn't agree with me, getting the state attorney general involved _would not have helped you_. That the credit card company was breaking the law is the real point. (It also helps if you know how to properly document the cancellation of service, but it's a pain in the a.s to do, so most people don't. That's their problem.) Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin >Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal that >you would not expect from eBay. > >Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal >protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their >policies are. If you pay PayPal with a CC, you would seek redress from PayPal. If PayPal passes your money along, that's what you contracted with them to do, so they have nothing to do with any fraud that happens down the line. IOW, asking PayPal for your money back will net you nothing, as they did nothing wrong. SignatureThe Gallup Poll released Tuesday said Law and Order star Fred Thompson came out of nowhere to run in third place among GOP voters behind Rudy Giuliani and John McCain. He is a Hollywood conservative. Only the Unabomber has spent more time alone. >> Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal >> protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > them to do, so they have nothing to do with any fraud that happens > down the line. TOTAL AND UTTER BULLSHIT!!! Google "Card Not Present" transactions and learn a little bit about your rights as a consumer. > IOW, asking PayPal for your money back will net you nothing, as they > did nothing wrong. PayPal is the *merchant* in this transaction and they are legally obligated to have any funding pulled from their account by the CC company since every PayPal transaction is a "Card Not Present" transaction. Rita >>> Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal >>> protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks their [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >to have any funding pulled from their account by the CC company since every >PayPal transaction is a "Card Not Present" transaction. And, as the merchant, did *exactly* as they were contracted to do - pass the money on to the seller. PayPal, in such a case, does no fraudulant action, and can't be held responsible for fraud that happens further down the line. SignatureThe Gallup Poll released Tuesday said Law and Order star Fred Thompson came out of nowhere to run in third place among GOP voters behind Rudy Giuliani and John McCain. He is a Hollywood conservative. Only the Unabomber has spent more time alone. >>> If you pay PayPal with a CC, you would seek redress from PayPal. >>> If PayPal passes your money along, that's what you contracted with [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > And, as the merchant, did *exactly* as they were contracted to do - > pass the money on to the seller. And, as the merchant, they are responsible to minimize risk for themselves or have the money taken back like any other merchant would have in a "Card Not Present" transaction. You see, PayPal is not a bank and is simply a merchant agreeing to the same terms any other merchant does when accepting CCs from Visa/MC. > PayPal, in such a case, does no fraudulant action, and can't be held > responsible for fraud that happens further down the line. BULLSHIT! They agreed to VISA/MC's terms like any other merchant would do. The only advantage PayPal has is they prey on the stupidity of the user not to know their rights as a consumer. Apparently you don't know your rights even though you and I covered this topic a while back. Rita >>> PayPal is the *merchant* in this transaction and they are legally >>> obligated to have any funding pulled from their account by the CC >>> company since every PayPal transaction is a "Card Not Present" >>> transaction. >> And, as the merchant, did *exactly* as they were contracted to do - >> pass the money on to the seller. > And, as the merchant, they are responsible to minimize risk for themselves > or have the money taken back like any other merchant would have in a "Card > Not Present" transaction. You see, PayPal is not a bank and is simply a > merchant agreeing to the same terms any other merchant does when accepting > CCs from Visa/MC. I wish this were true, but my understanding is that it isn't, and that if you use PayPal to pay for a purchase, even if you use a credit card rather than a bank transfer, you lose the consumer protections that you would have if you paid directly with a credit card. I hope I'm misinformed, because I would really like the state of affairs to be as Rita describes it. But from what I've seen, it's not that way. So I would greatly appreciate it if Rita could give us some pointers to evidence that backs up her claim. >> And, as the merchant, they are responsible to minimize risk for >> themselves or have the money taken back like any other merchant [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > protections that you would have if you paid directly with a credit > card. What makes you think you don't have any protections under your CC? If it's what you've read in PayPal's ToS than you should ignore that since the FCRA trumps all of PayPal's nonsense when it comes to CC purchases. > I hope I'm misinformed, because I would really like the state of > affairs to be as Rita describes it. But from what I've seen, it's > not that way. Describe what you have seen and maybe we can see where these fallacies are coming from? > So I would greatly appreciate it if Rita could give us some pointers > to evidence that backs up her claim. Well, Google up "Card Not Present" and "FCRA" and learn about your rights. After reading up on these two topics you can scan some of the eBay forums and read all the bitching by sellers that lost every single dispute that was a CC funded PayPal payment. Rita > What makes you think you don't have any protections under your CC? If > it's > what you've read in PayPal's ToS than you should ignore that since the > FCRA > trumps all of PayPal's nonsense when it comes to CC purchases. No, I have read it elsewhere. And I could remember where, I'd tell you. >> I hope I'm misinformed, because I would really like the state of >> affairs to be as Rita describes it. But from what I've seen, it's >> not that way. > Describe what you have seen and maybe we can see where these fallacies are > coming from? I don't really care where they're coming from. I'm asking for pointers to authoritative sources that say otherwise. >> So I would greatly appreciate it if Rita could give us some pointers >> to evidence that backs up her claim. > Well, Google up "Card Not Present" and "FCRA" and learn about your rights. > After reading up on these two topics you can scan some of the eBay forums > and read all the bitching by sellers that lost every single dispute that > was > a CC funded PayPal payment. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do the research. I am quite content avoiding PayPal most of the time, based on my admittedly vague and possibly faulty impressions, because there's not much I need it for. If you are willing to take the time to cite specific references that prove that my impressions are faulty, I will be happy to read them; but I don't have enough desire to use PayPal to make it worth my while to chase them down for myself. > I have neither the time nor the inclination to do the research. I am > quite content avoiding PayPal most of the time, based on my [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > be happy to read them; but I don't have enough desire to use PayPal > to make it worth my while to chase them down for myself. Well, it looks like you have already solved your own problem. Rita > Well, it looks like you have already solved your own problem. Well no -- I don't have a problem. > Well, Google up "Card Not Present" and "FCRA" and learn about your rights. > After reading up on these two topics you can scan some of the eBay forums > and read all the bitching by sellers that lost every single dispute that > was > a CC funded PayPal payment. By the way, I tried looking for "paypal FCRA" and one of the first sites that came up was paypalsucks.com, which is full of information--some of it probably even accurate--and which contains a pointer to this article: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5550334/ A quote: The notice tells PayPal customers that they may be eligible to receive payment as part of a class-action lawsuit settlement the eBay-owned Web signed last month. The suit alleged that, beginning in 1999, PayPal unfairly froze thousands of user accounts, preventing consumers from getting access to their money. In the settlement, PayPal agreed to set aside $9.25 million to compensate users who feel they were treated unfairly. I will agree with you that this article doesn't address the specific subject of chargebacks. It does, however, reinforce my impression that PayPal is worth avoiding when possible. >>>> Paying with a credit card, however, gives you certain legal >>>> protections in the US, regardless of what PayPal/eBay thinks [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > PayPal, in such a case, does no fraudulant action, and can't be > held responsible for fraud that happens further down the line. In fact, they can, and are. They agreed to be responsible when they signed the contract to become a credit card merchant. When they give a buyer a refund, they simply take the money back from the seller. Why do you not understand this? It's very simple. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin >>Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal >>that you would not expect from eBay. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > If you pay PayPal with a CC, you would seek redress from PayPal. You sould make a reasonable effort to use PayPal's system for reporting fraud. If they fail to resolve the issue, you go to your credit card issuer. > If PayPal passes your money along, that's what you contracted > with them to do, so they have nothing to do with any fraud that > happens down the line. Then why does PayPal have a system to resolve precisely that kind of dispute? One in which they are genreally noted to assuming the complaining party is in the right, to the point where they've been sued for not investigating enough before taking the money out of the seller's bank account? > IOW, asking PayPal for your money back will net you nothing, as > they did nothing wrong. And yet, they do, in fact, give people their money back. Hint: they make guarantees on some types of transactions, and it would be a really bad idea for them to not make some effort to live up to it. They have a sytem to resolve that kind of dispute, and if it does not meet your expectations, you dispute the transaction with your bank. That places the burden on them. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin >>>Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal >>>that you would not expect from eBay. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >sued for not investigating enough before taking the money out of >the seller's bank account? The system is needed because the law doesn't cover it. PayPal is very widely used; it needs the goodwill of the users to exist. Assuming the complaining party is right doesn't mean PayPOal will simply refund any monies; how would they make money doing that? >> IOW, asking PayPal for your money back will net you nothing, as >> they did nothing wrong. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >not meet your expectations, you dispute the transaction with your >bank. That places the burden on them. This is not describing the same safety procedures CC banks must follow by law. You do understand that, don't you? SignatureThe Gallup Poll released Tuesday said Law and Order star Fred Thompson came out of nowhere to run in third place among GOP voters behind Rudy Giuliani and John McCain. He is a Hollywood conservative. Only the Unabomber has spent more time alone. >> Then why does PayPal have a system to resolve precisely that kind >> of dispute? One in which they are genreally noted to assuming the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > PayPal is very widely used; it needs the goodwill of the users to > exist. Huh? Oh, but the law does cover it if the buyer uses a CC. You see, it's only the stupid that pay with balance transfer funded PayPal payments. Different sets of rules apply to balance transfers. > Assuming the complaining party is right doesn't mean PayPOal will > simply refund any monies; how would they make money doing that? This is why it is totally and utterly foolish to pay for any on-line transaction with anything other than a CC or a CC funded PayPal payment. >>> IOW, asking PayPal for your money back will net you nothing, as >>> they did nothing wrong. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This is not describing the same safety procedures CC banks must follow > by law. You're half right; PayPal's Buyer Protection is basically a scam and is almost worthless. This is why it is totally and utterly foolish to pay for any on-line transaction with anything other than a CC or a CC funded PayPal payment. > You do understand that, don't you? I think he has a better grasp of the concept than you. At least he knows his rights. Rita >>> Then why does PayPal have a system to resolve precisely that kind >>> of dispute? One in which they are genreally noted to assuming the [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >only the stupid that pay with balance transfer funded PayPal payments. >Different sets of rules apply to balance transfers. If you use your CC to pay PayPal, and PayPal does nothing fraudulant, PayPal is not responsible to you, the CC user for fraud committed by someone else. A very well-tested legal point. I know; I've been there with just this point. >> Assuming the complaining party is right doesn't mean PayPOal will >> simply refund any monies; how would they make money doing that? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > >Rita SignatureThe Gallup Poll released Tuesday said Law and Order star Fred Thompson came out of nowhere to run in third place among GOP voters behind Rudy Giuliani and John McCain. He is a Hollywood conservative. Only the Unabomber has spent more time alone. >> Huh? Oh, but the law does cover it if the buyer uses a CC. You >> see, it's only the stupid that pay with balance transfer funded [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > PayPal is not responsible to you, the CC user for fraud committed by > someone else. That is totally and utterly irrelevant. The same risks hold true when any on-line merchant enters into a "Card Not Present" transaction. It doesn't matter that the merchant didn't do anything fraudulent. It is the merchant's responsibility to *minimize* risk to avoid chargebacks. > A very well-tested legal point. > I know; I've been there with just this point. Yes, it's been well tested and the buyer has won every PayPal dispute that involves a CC whether or not there was any "perceived" fraud on the seller's end. You seem to conveniently and continually forget that protections set forth by the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) trumps any and all of PayPal's Terms of Service when CCs are involved. Look it up. Rita >>> Huh? Oh, but the law does cover it if the buyer uses a CC. You >>> see, it's only the stupid that pay with balance transfer funded [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >matter that the merchant didn't do anything fraudulent. It is the >merchant's responsibility to *minimize* risk to avoid chargebacks. This seems to mean that you don't understand what's being discussed here. PayPal is the merchant using a "card not present" procedure in this case. PayPal then forwards the money to the seller, as per the contract with the buyer. If the seller then absconds with the money, explain how *PayPal* is guilety of fraud in any way, or is liable for losses to the buyer. >> A very well-tested legal point. >> I know; I've been there with just this point. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >forth by the Fair Credit Reporting Act (FCRA) trumps any and all of PayPal's >Terms of Service when CCs are involved. Look it up. Show where PayPal has been held liable for another's fraud. SignatureTHIS IS A SIG LINE; NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY! White House aide Karl Rove brought down the house at the correspondents' dinner Wednesday when he performed a rap song as MC Rove. The number was awkward from the start. He asked for a downbeat and the deejay read him the president's approval rating. >>>> Huh? Oh, but the law does cover it if the buyer uses a CC. >>>> You see, it's only the stupid that pay with balance transfer [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > is guilety of fraud in any way, or is liable for losses to the > buyer. Because they charged the credit card, _and their merchant agreement *says* they are responsible_. I *have* a merchange agreement, I *know* what they say. For a "card not present" transaction, it's nearly *impossible* for a merchant to win a dispute, if the card issuer does their job. >>> A very well-tested legal point. >>> I know; I've been there with just this point. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Show where PayPal has been held liable for another's fraud. How about PayPal's own FAQ on chargebacks, which says that the decision is up to the credit card company, not PayPal? https://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr? cmd=xpt/seller/ChargebackRisk-outside or: http://tinyurl.com/y5wxhp "When a chargeback occurs, the money that is subject to the chargeback is deducted from PayPal's bank account." PayPal has zero say in this, as this is standard practice in the industry. The fact is, you claimed that if someone buys something through PayPal using a credit card, and is ripped off, they have no recourse against PayPal. And that _simply isn't true_. PayPal has a system in place to resolve such disputes through them, and are well known to err on the side of buyers, at the expense of sellers, even when doing so is illegal. They have been sued over their methods, and settled rather than face a jury. And even if you don't go through them, you still have the legal right to dispute the transaction through your bank, and it's *far* easier to win that way. PayPal has their system in place to discourage you from going to your bank, because it costs them less. If they get too many chargebacks, they'll lose their merchant accounts. I do see references in some news stories to PayPal having special deals with Discover and American Express that relieves them of some responsibilities. I'm not so sure how legal Discover's deal would be, if it were tested in court, because the law favors the consumer, and Discover's deal leaves the consumer with very limited recourse. Amex, of course, isn't a true credit card, and different laws apply. But Visa and Mastercard have standard terms in their merchant agreement, in which PayPal specifically accepts responsibility as the merchante. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3078504/ has a good summary. In short, Bill, you're full of sh.t. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin > Because they charged the credit card, _and their merchant agreement > *says* they are responsible_. I *have* a merchange agreement, I > *know* what they say. For a "card not present" transaction, it's > nearly *impossible* for a merchant to win a dispute, if the card > issuer does their job. Save your breath with Billy Bob since he's just trying to get a rise from me. We've discussed this nonsense a while back and he thinks he's strumming me along. I'll hand the torch off to you and you can play with Billy Bob if you want. Rita >> Because they charged the credit card, _and their merchant agreement >> *says* they are responsible_. I *have* a merchange agreement, I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > he's strumming me along. I'll hand the torch off to you and you can > play with Billy Bob if you want. I've always been amused by trolling 'tards. Give me a day or two, and I'll have him arguing with Pee Wee Herman quotes. SignatureTerry Austin Your worst inhibitions tend to psych you out in the end. http://money.aol.com/consreports/smartshopping/personal_finance/ _a/credit-cards-whats-wrong-with-this-bill/20051207135709990006 or http://tinyurl.com/o8rqm has an excellent summary of the current status of the law. (And some examples of banks not following the rules - until the press started calling about it.) Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin >>>> Then why does PayPal have a system to resolve precisely that >>>> kind of dispute? One in which they are genreally noted to [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > fraudulant, PayPal is not responsible to you, the CC user for > fraud committed by someone else. In fact, they are, by their contract with their merchant service. > A very well-tested legal point. It is. Why are you lying about it? > I know; I've been there with just this point. You're lying about this because your own bank lied to you rather than do their job, and you feel stupid? Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin >>>>Note that PayPal is owned by eBay. Expect nothing from PayPal >>>>that you would not expect from eBay. [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > The system is needed because the law doesn't cover it. The law does cover it. > PayPal is very widely used; it needs the goodwill of the users > to exist. Then why were they _ordered_ by a court to provide contact phone numbers, after years of refusing to do so? > Assuming the complaining party is right doesn't mean PayPOal > will simply refund any monies; how would they make money doing > that? How is PayPal different in that respect than any other merchant? Hint: they're not. >>> IOW, asking PayPal for your money back will net you nothing, >>> as they did nothing wrong. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > This is not describing the same safety procedures CC banks must > follow by law. It exceeds the legal requirements. > You do understand that, don't you? Yes. Why do you think they offere that service? Because their reputation is *so* bad, they *had* to do something to improve it. You *do* understand that the same laws that apply to other credit card merchants apply to PayPal, don't you? Don't you? Apparently not. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin > The only way to protect yourself against getting scammed on eBay is to only > pay by PayPal with a CC funded payment. It is totally and utterly foolish > to pay any other way. If you don't use a CC funded PayPal payment you > deserve to get scammed for being overwhelmingly stupid. There are FAR too many scams, etc. associated with PayPal for me to have anything to do with it. Even during the sign-up process up came a page that was (if one thought about it...) a scam (it must have been from a PayPal insider or a hacker, neither reassuring about dealing through PayPal). So, I simply refuse to deal with anything but postal MOs sent by mail. If any fraud is involved on either side (in the US...), the PO does eventually get "even" (they collected $850 once for me from a scammer years ago). If someone says "PayPal only", I don't bid. Easy... -- David Ruether d_ruether@hotmail.com www.donferrario.com/ruether/ (note address change) >> The only way to protect yourself against getting scammed on eBay is >> to only pay by PayPal with a CC funded payment. It is totally and [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > a scammer years ago). If someone says "PayPal only", I don't > bid. Easy... Really? Let's see? Scams you say? I've been selling and buying on eBay since 1999 and haven't had any problems from buyers that paid me with PayPal, and these were high dollar transactions. Then again, I sent exactly what was described and stood behind my products. In the same time frame as a buyer I had five sellers that tried to get over on me. I simply gave them one chance to rectify the problem, but they chose the difficult path for themselves. One call to my CC company to get the dispute process started and put the payment on hold and an e-mail to PayPal informing them I'm handling this through my CC company is all it took to wake up unresponsive sellers. I got my money back in all cases. For me, if someone doesn't take PayPal I skip their auction and let it for some fool to take their chances. You do realize sellers really do get lower closing prices if they don't accept PayPal? Rita >>> The only way to protect yourself against getting scammed on eBay is >>> to only pay by PayPal with a CC funded payment. It is totally and [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >You do realize sellers really do get lower closing prices if they don't >accept PayPal? There is a very definite difference between "unresponsive" and "scammer". Maybe this is your problem with not understanding what's being said: you don't understand what that difference is. SignatureThe Gallup Poll released Tuesday said Law and Order star Fred Thompson came out of nowhere to run in third place among GOP voters behind Rudy Giuliani and John McCain. He is a Hollywood conservative. Only the Unabomber has spent more time alone. >> Really? Let's see? Scams you say? I've been selling and buying on >> eBay since 1999 and haven't had any problems from buyers that paid [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > There is a very definite difference between "unresponsive" and > "scammer". And what difference would that be when a "scammer" thinks he has your money? Surely you jest if you think a "scammer" is going to be your pen pal. > Maybe this is your problem with not understanding what's being said: > you don't understand what that difference is. What difference does it make since I have gotten my money back in full? Rita >>> Really? Let's see? Scams you say? I've been selling and buying on >>> eBay since 1999 and haven't had any problems from buyers that paid [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >And what difference would that be when a "scammer" thinks he has your money? >Surely you jest if you think a "scammer" is going to be your pen pal. Where do you get this stuff? When the scammer has PayPal's money instead of mine, and PayPal has my money for fulfilling a valid contract, I lose, and PayPal isn't liable. >> Maybe this is your problem with not understanding what's being said: >> you don't understand what that difference is. > >What difference does it make since I have gotten my money back in full? And explain the circimstances whereby you used PayPal, the seller was a scammer, and PayPal reimboursed you in full. With some documentation, since you are well known to embellish the facts. SignatureTHIS IS A SIG LINE; NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY! White House aide Karl Rove brought down the house at the correspondents' dinner Wednesday when he performed a rap song as MC Rove. The number was awkward from the start. He asked for a downbeat and the deejay read him the president's approval rating. >>>> Really? Let's see? Scams you say? I've been selling and >>>> buying on eBay since 1999 and haven't had any problems from [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > has my money for fulfilling a valid contract, I lose, and PayPal > isn't liable. Except, of course, when PayPal has accepted liability as the merchant of record, which is certainly the case with Visa and Mastercard. And Discover and Amex have both sided with card holders in dispute, despite some non-standard terms in their merchant service agreements with PayPal. >>> Maybe this is your problem with not understanding what's being >>> said: you don't understand what that difference is. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > And explain the circimstances whereby you used PayPal, the > seller was a scammer, and PayPal reimboursed you in full. Happens all the time, actually. Nearly everyone how participates in things like paypalsucks.com are sellers, complaining that PayPal is far too trusting of buyers in disuptes. > With some documentation, since you are well known to embellish > the facts. And you are simply full of sh.t. Signature"What is the first law?" "To Protect." "And the second?" "Ourselves." Terry Austin >> With some documentation, since you are well known to embellish >> the facts. >> > And you are simply full of sh.t. LOL! Be nice to Billy Bob. He knows he's wrong and is simply trying to have fun. I really don't think he is genuinely this stupid, but I was wrong only one other time in my life. Rita >>> With some documentation, since you are well known to embellish >>> the facts. >>> >> And you are simply full of sh.t. > > LOL! Be nice to Billy Bob. I can't imagine a reason that doesn't involved my aforementioned merchant account for me to do that. > He knows he's wrong and is simply trying > to have fun. I really don't think he is genuinely this stupid, but I > was wrong only one other time in my life. I think he knows full well he's wrong, but he's embarassed by getting screwed by some seller on eBay, then getting screwed again by PayPal, then getting screwed *again* by his own bank, because he was too ignorant and weak willed to know what else to do but take it. I think he's a pussy. SignatureTerry Austin Your worst inhibitions tend to psych you out in the end. >>> The only way to protect yourself against getting scammed on eBay is >>> to only pay by PayPal with a CC funded payment. It is totally and >>> utterly foolish to pay any other way. If you don't use a CC funded >>> PayPal payment you deserve to get scammed for being overwhelmingly >>> stupid. >> There are FAR too many scams, etc. associated with PayPal >> for me to have anything to do with it. Even during the sign-up [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >> a scammer years ago). If someone says "PayPal only", I don't >> bid. Easy... > Really? Let's see? Scams you say? I've been selling and buying on eBay > since 1999 and haven't had any problems from buyers that paid me with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > You do realize sellers really do get lower closing prices if they don't > accept PayPal? I wrote about purchases only on eBay (I don't sell there...). The scam page in the sequence of the PayPal signing up process was scary - and I'm tired of all the "phishing" scams with PayPal names. I will have nothing to do with it. In the "old days" of buying from Shutterbug ads (anyone remember how fun they used to be? ;-), I found a much higher percentage of sellers could accurately describe the condition of their gear on the 'phone (many eBay sellers just plain lie, even the 99-100% satisfaction ones, and photos do little to really show conditions unless something is really bad [if you want to see what I mean, look up "Nikon F3 body" and see the numerous "mint" and "LN" samples that look scuffed, scratched, or even dented, often so badly that poor photos clearly show the defects]) and getting a reliable money back guarantee was easier. For this, the seller would generally agree to a "cash only" COD shipment by UPS, not knowing that UPS considers a USPS or bank MO the same as cash. My bank at the time would cancel MOs on request, so I would check out the gear quickly, and if warranted (this did not happen often, but sometimes a "mint" lens looked like it had rolled down the street and been struck by, though not actually run over by, a truck...;-), I would have the MO cancelled, inform the seller that the MO was worthless, and return the item immediately. I have a low tolerance for gross misrepresentation, though one can strike a balance between price, usability, condition, etc. that makes less than perfection or as-represented tolerable. BTW, if you want look up my eBay rating and seller comments on eBay, try "Cat-1000"... -- David Ruether d_ruether@hotmail.com www.donferrario.com/ruether/ (note address change) >> Really? Let's see? Scams you say? I've been selling and buying on >> eBay since 1999 and haven't had any problems from buyers that paid [quoted text clipped - 36 lines] > less than perfection or as-represented tolerable. BTW, if you want > look up my eBay rating and seller comments on eBay, try "Cat-1000"... You bring up some good points, but all of this is avoided by paying with a CC funded PayPal payment. Any problems with misrepresented merchandise are quickly resolved once I explain my rights as a consumer. If the seller has comprehension problems I simply start a chargeback. The great thing about this process is the buyer does not have to pay return shipping. I simply e-mail the seller and tell them if they want their garbage back they will need to send me a UPS ARS label. You see, once I file a complaint it is no longer my problem. I refuse to waste time on idiot sellers that are ethically challanged. Rita > You bring up some good points, but all of this is avoided by paying with a > CC funded PayPal payment. I (and 7 orthers) just bought a Canon EOD 5D at eBay for 200 euro + 45 euro shipping (US $ 328). Here is the auction: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=006&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT &viewitem=&item=160100369003&rd=1&rd=1 The interesting bit is that the seller will accept payment through PayPal. After requesting total from the the seller, I got this message: "Hi, friend. My PAYPAL is: Smokyboy8@yahoo.com.cn. After the payment please immediately contacts with me, and tells me to pay in detail. Total for project is EUR245 including shipping. When we check and accept your remittance, we will use the EMS to deliver the item to you, you will accept the item in 3-5 days. I hope that we can complete the bargain as soon as possible. If you have any questions please let me know. It is my pleasure to do business with you and hope you have a nice day. Thanks!" Now, I don't believe for a second that someone in mainland China has a warehouse of EOS 5Ds and is happy to let them go for around 300 bucks apiece, so something is obviously wrong here. The clue here is that while he accepts PayPal, the payment is routed outside eBay and therefore, as far as eBay and Paypal is concerned, the transaction is /not/ connected to said eBay auction. In effect, PayPal payments /outside/ eBay is just an alternate version of Western Union wire transfer. I am not going to proceed with this (if somebody is willing to put $328 on the line to conduct this experiment, please contact me). I think this scammer knows his stuff, and that Rita's blanket statement that "paying with a CC funded PayPal payment" is virtually risk free - is too broad. (I reported this particular seller to eBay om March 29, he has been busy selling huge lots of 5Ds and 1DsIIs for around $300 apiece ever since. So far, no response from eBays "security" department.) Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Now, I don't believe for a second that someone in mainland China > has a warehouse of EOS 5Ds and is happy to let them go for around > 300 bucks apiece, so something is obviously wrong here. Smart thinking on your part. > The clue here is that while he accepts PayPal, the payment is routed > outside eBay and therefore, as far as eBay and Paypal is concerned, > the transaction is /not/ connected to said eBay auction. In effect, > PayPal payments /outside/ eBay is just an alternate version of > Western Union wire transfer. You're assuming PayPal doesn't and won't initiate fraud protection and not allow the transaction to be funded with a CC. I was in a similar situation a year or so back when the seller was a low feedback newbie that had an item I won and accepted CC funded PayPal. I tried to pay, but the option wasn't available to me to use since PayPal deemed this a "high risk" transaction. They, PayPal, said that I could use a bank funded transfer. By not allowing me to use a CC for this one transaction PayPal shifted *ALL* risk to me, the buyer. I backed out of the transaction because I won't complete a transaction that can't be CC funded. > I am not going to proceed with this (if somebody is willing to put > $328 on the line to conduct this experiment, please contact me). > I think this scammer knows his stuff, and that Rita's blanket > statement that "paying with a CC funded PayPal payment" is virtually > risk free > - is too broad. The scammer knows that if he can get *some* money into his hands prior to PayPal freezing or yanking it back by stalling the buyer. If these payments were CC funded the buyer gets their money back and PayPal is out if they can't recoup from the seller. I'll bet if you tried to send money PayPal would have removed the CC option from your funding options. > (I reported this particular seller to eBay om March 29, he has been > busy selling huge lots of 5Ds and 1DsIIs for around $300 apiece ever > since. So far, no response from eBays "security" department.) Why worry about it? He's not. Rita >> Now, I don't believe for a second that someone in mainland China >> has a warehouse of EOS 5Ds and is happy to let them go for around >> 300 bucks apiece, so something is obviously wrong here. > Smart thinking on your part. :-) >> The clue here is that while he accepts PayPal, the payment is routed >> outside eBay and therefore, as far as eBay and Paypal is concerned, >> the transaction is /not/ connected to said eBay auction. In effect, >> PayPal payments /outside/ eBay is just an alternate version of >> Western Union wire transfer. > You're assuming PayPal doesn't and won't initiate fraud protection > and not allow the transaction to be funded with a CC. Well, I had to try it out. And you are wrong. When I initiated payment with PayPal, i.e. I entered said auction and the email-address given by the scammer and ticked the appropiate fields on the PayPal form, and I got to the "Review Your Payment"-screen. There PayPal listed Credit Card as the first funding option for this particular purchase. Obviously, I did not proceed passed that point. But to me, it looks as if PayPal would have allowed this purchase to be funded with a CC if I had proceeeded. I have no idea how easy to for him to convert this into real cash before Paypal closes his account and starts to reverse charges. However, I've bought stuff from China on eBay, and EMS usually takes at least three weeks to get here. If the victim actually paid, - he'd have a large window of time to abscond with the funds before the victim's patience expired and a dispute were opened. I'm not sure I would win a reverse charge against PayPal in such a case, and I certainly don't want to put real money on the line to find out. Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > I'm not sure I would win a reverse charge against PayPal in such a > case, and I certainly don't want to put real money on the line to find > out. In the US you will win. Other countries have different rules. If your country doesn't offer decent consumer protections like the US does, PayPal will allow you to take the risk since they have nothing to lose. Rita >> I'm not sure I would win a reverse charge against PayPal in such a >> case, and I certainly don't want to put real money on the line to find >> out. > In the US you will win. Other countries have different rules. If > your country doesn't offer decent consumer protections like the US > does, PayPal will allow you to take the risk since they have nothing > to lose. Norway has identical consumer protection laws to the US with respect to chargebacks and card-not-present-transactions. I've succesfully used chargebacks (via Paypal) against eBay sellers that misrepresented the condition of the merchandise. But in this particular case, my hunch is not to risk it. Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Now, I don't believe for a second that someone in mainland China > > has a warehouse of EOS 5Ds and is happy to let them go for around [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Rita Hi, I want to joined my experienced with a scammer from UK, He's name sean broadhurst as a director sales and acquisition from trophyhomes.co.UK ( his email address is : Sean Broadhurst <seanbroadhurst@gmail.com>, Sean Broadhurst <sales@trophyhomes.co.uk>. He offer me 4 a second hand watches consist of : cartier santos 100, Rolex YM 16622, Breitling bentley and tag heuer aquaracer. amount GBP1000. he claimed as an original watches, come with box and paper. But infact, just only a second hand fakes watches ( and for tah heuer has broken links and the breitling crown is damage). I have claimed to paypal, but their asked, is not dispute cause that stuff has received in my hand, paypal is not responsible about real or fake stuff. I think is our problem against scammer like sean broadhurst via paypal..Altough he promised me to refund my money back, after i've been contact his company ( before that, he has not any respond of my email). Unfortunately, until now he disappeared , although i've contact his company, to pushed him refund my money back. Just for alert for all of you, remebering a name is sean broadhurst has a fraudulent transaction and he is a great scammer. His address is : 7 Winchester Close, Liverpool UK, Post Code L 257YD Becareful with his activity. And thank for your attention. regards, Dody - Jakarta / Indonesia > Take a look at the current auctions listed by "pkyou2004" on eBay: > http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZpkyou2004 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > think twice before wiring any money. See also: > http://hannemyr.com/links/webscams.html Anyone attempthing to sell me something that cheap is not on the level. I am safe, I wouldn't even give this jack*** the time of day, much less a buck for a cup o' joe. SignatureJim <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo |
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