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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007Canon's new "N" replacement. How many will really buy it?
People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will it sell? Most buyers of higher-end Canon products want FF. Is the camera (for a sports shooter anyway) really much of a step up from the previous model? Nature photogs will buy the 1DsMkII. How many of the current N's sold versus the more affordable 5Ds and superior 1DsMkIIs? RichA, Give your head a shake, FF is irrelevant in sports / action photography. This camera model is, was and always will be targeted at a totally different market segment than the 5D or the 1Ds. Why would landscape or portrait photographers need 10 FPS?... although I must admit the sound of that shutter is just out of this world! > RichA, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why would landscape or portrait photographers need 10 FPS?... although > I must admit the sound of that shutter is just out of this world! Why even have mirror that fires along with the shutter? How about an "off to the side" optical viewfinder, the mirror locks up and the shutter is what does the firing? It would save wear on the mirror mechanism, less chance of particles coming off it as well. > RichA, > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Why would landscape or portrait photographers need 10 FPS?... although > I must admit the sound of that shutter is just out of this world! I know how I'll use it... When I'm in Alaska again (or elsewhere), shooting landscapes with my 5D, I'll also have the 1DIII ready for when that Grizzly, wolf, or other wildlife moment comes along. There is no better option out there for wildlife photography than the 1D series. Most people shoot more than a single type of image, so while the model may appeal to particular scenarios, there is still wide appeal to photogs--even those like me who value FF. I love landscapes, but I also love shooting wildlife. I haven't had high fps since my film EOS 3, so this body will enable the kind of action shooting I've longed for ever since moving to digital.  SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson Agreed, The 10 FPS would be a wildlife shooters wet dream. Couple that with a 10 MP 14 bit image and I can see the line-ups at camera stores forming now. > Agreed, > > The 10 FPS would be a wildlife shooters wet dream. Couple that with a > 10 MP 14 bit image and I can see the line-ups at camera stores forming > now. The line's behind me...as I just placed my order today... :) SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson >> Agreed, >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The line's behind me...as I just placed my order today... :) And Canon laughing all the way to the bank.... David >>> Agreed, >>> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > David Yep. And your point is... ? SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson >>>> Agreed, >>>> [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Yep. And your point is... > ? How much profit Canon are making with relatively little effort. Good to see some new features, though. David > How much profit Canon are making with relatively little effort. Good to > see some new features, though. I would have thought that the "mass market" models like the 400D/xti would be the main earners rather than the high end stuff. >>>>> Agreed, >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > How much profit Canon are making with relatively little effort. Good > to see some new features, though. Little effort?? Have you looked at the list of changes on that thing? They basically started from scratch with this model. They will make a pile of money...but I'd hardly call it little effort. SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson [] >> How much profit Canon are making with relatively little effort. Good >> to see some new features, though. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > They will make a pile of money...but I'd hardly call it little effort. Neither would I, that's why I said "relatively". David > [] >>> How much profit Canon are making with relatively little effort. Good [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > David I also acknowledged the new features. Yes, I did read the white paper, and it looks and sounds impressive. Perhaps the price (was it $3999?) indicates there is considerable margin for profit, or perhaps there is a $4000 barrier they were struggling to get below? David >> [] >>>> How much profit Canon are making with relatively little effort. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > David Perception is an interesting thing... I actually expected their price to be higher. :) I just placed an order at $3999... But Calumet (another reputable dealer) is taking pre-orders for $4499. They'll sell all they can at that price once it becomes clear that there's a shortage...and there will be a shortage. SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson > People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will it > sell? > Most buyers of higher-end Canon products want FF. Is the camera (for > a sports shooter anyway) really much of a step up from the previous > model? Nature photogs will buy the 1DsMkII. How many of the current > N's sold versus the more affordable 5Ds and superior 1DsMkIIs? How many will buy it? -As many as Canon can make...they will sell...and quickly. SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson >> People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will it >> sell? [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > How many will buy it? > -As many as Canon can make...they will sell...and quickly. Exactly! There are more than enough people with the $$$; unfortunately, I'm not one of them, so I'll have to settle for the best thing and STEAL one!!! SignatureSlack >People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will it >sell? >Most buyers of higher-end Canon products want FF. Is the camera (for >a sports shooter anyway) really much of a step up from the previous >model? Nature photogs will buy the 1DsMkII. How many of the current >N's sold versus the more affordable 5Ds and superior 1DsMkIIs? I wonder why Canon didn't ask you before they wasted all the time making it. >People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will it >sell? Why should you care? You aren't going to buy one. You aren't going to buy any of the other fine Canon DSLRs, either. Canon could reduce its line of cameras to ONE, and you still wouldn't buy it. >Most buyers of higher-end Canon products want FF. How the hell do YOU know what "most buyers" want? Do you have market research to back up this claim? Or are you, as usual, just making it up? > Is the camera (for >a sports shooter anyway) really much of a step up from the previous >model? Not much of a step up? In some ways it's a step up from the 1Ds. 1D MkIII 1Ds MkII 1D MkII N - 3.0-inch LCD 2.5-inch LCD 2.5-inch LCD - 10.1MP 16.7MP 8.2MP - 10 fps 4 fps 8.5fps - Live Preview - Improved AF - Integrated Cleaning System - Dual DIGIC III Image Processors - ~1/2 lb lighter > Nature photogs will buy the 1DsMkII. I thought nature photogs preferred 1D MkII N to the 1Ds MkII. The 1.3x Crop Factor was more desirable than the FF sensor and higher MP. > How many of the current >N's sold versus the more affordable 5Ds and superior 1DsMkIIs? How many people who bought a 5D, 1Ds or II-N would have bought a MkIII if it had been available when they made their purchase? Who knows and who cares. I do know one thing - since you aren't going to buy any Canon DSLR, the MkIII shouldn't have any affect on your purchases. Canon will neither gain nor lose you as a customer. TR >> People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will >> it sell? [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > - Dual DIGIC III Image Processors > - ~1/2 lb lighter There's a heck of a lot more than that, too: How about: -14-bit vs. 12-bit? =Huge improvement -Highlight tone priority mode, where the camera meters specifically to properly expose/preserve highlight detail? -6400 ISO -300,000 shutter reliability (double) -sRAW option (25% size RAW file for smaller print convenience of RAW power) -110 shot buffer (jpeg) 30-shot buffer (RAW) -50% less shadow noise at ALL ISOs -Silent mode -Wireless options galore -5 WB setting recall -ISO speed safety shift -New info displayed in viewfinder, including ISO -Ability to fine-tune AF by user (previously required sending to service center) -Many more SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson > >People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will it > >sell? [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > if it had been available when they made their purchase? Who knows and > who cares. Aside from live view, do you really think the MkIII is that radical an upgrade from the II-N? I'm fairly certain what you are saying is not the case. > Aside from live view, do you really think the MkIII is that radical an > upgrade from the II-N? As per always RichA your are correct sir, that dual image processor was likely really easy to integrate... just brush the insects aside and hot melt the sucker in while enjoying the breeze from those open factory windows! And those 14 bit images... pfffft. 14 is ONLY 2 more than 12, start with a 12 add 2 and BAM, there's your 14. Gosh, who said this technology stuff was hard? Those crafty buggers at Canon are likely sniggering in their sleeves right about now. > > Aside from live view, do you really think the MkIII is that radical an > > upgrade from the II-N? [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Gosh, who said this technology stuff was hard? Those crafty buggers > at Canon are likely sniggering in their sleeves right about now. How much difference will the 14 bits make? According to some, next to none. >> > Aside from live view, do you really think the MkIII is that radical an >> > upgrade from the II-N? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >How much difference will the 14 bits make? According to some, next to >none. According to some idiots like you who don't actually take photos, no doubt. SignatureW "Some people are alive only because it is illegal to kill them." . | ,. w , \|/ \|/ Perna condita delenda est ---^----^--------------------------------------------------------------- >>> People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will >>> it sell? [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > upgrade from the II-N? > I'm fairly certain what you are saying is not the case. OK Richard A... Let me spell it out for you... Here's a "summary" list of changes over the IIN: . World's fastest AF DSLR with approximately 10 fps continuous shooting in One-Shot AF or AI Servo AF . Maximum burst (JPEG Large, compression level 8) approximately 110 shots; RAW, approximately 30 shots (based on Canon's testing standards) . Dual DIGIC III Image Processors for fine detail, natural color reproduction and high-speed performance . ISO 100-3200 with ISO speed extension, L= 50, H = 6400 . 14-bit A/D conversion for fine gradation . Live View in camera and remote, wired and wireless . New 45-point Area AF sensor with 19 high-precision, cross-type points (f/2.8 compatible), 26 standard-precision AssistAF points . New AF point selection methods . AF micro-adjustment (fine adjustment of AF point of focus) . Adjustable operation characteristics for AFpoint selection, shutter release priority and focus-tracking sensitivity with AI Servo AF . New methods of AF point expansion during manual AF point selection . New 10.1-megapixel CMOSsensor, APS-H size . Improved microlens array and pixel fill factor plus optimized photodiode structure to increase light-reception efficiency . Professional EOS Integrated Cleaning System with Self-Cleaning Sensor Unit, Dust Delete Data acquisition . RAW, sRAW (new SmallRAW), RAW+JPEG, sRAW+JPEG, JPEG+JPEG simultaneous recording . Increased shutter durability of approximately 300,000 cycles . Large and bright 3.0-inch LCD monitor with 230,000 pixels and wide viewing angle . Five custom WB settings . Selectable noise reduction for high ISO images, 50% less shadow noise for all images . Selectable Highlight Tone Priority . High-speed shutter with 1/8000 sec. maximum speed and high-speed X-sync at 1/300 sec. with EX Speedlites . Startup time approx. 0.2 sec. . Shutter release time lag approx. 55 ms. (approximately 40 ms. at maximum aperture with C. Fn IV-13-1) and viewfinder blackout time 80 ms. at 1/250 or higher . Compatible with SDHC (SD High-Capacity) memory cards as well as high capacity CF cards . Compatible with USB 2.0 Hi-Speed image transfer . Faster writing to memory card . High-magnification, wide-coverage viewfinder and improved focusing screen with 100% finder coverage . 63-zone metering sensor for more stable exposure control with ambient light and flash . High-capacity, lightweight and compact lithium-ion battery with estimated battery life display . Enhanced recording options include automatic switching ofrecording media, separate recordings to media and identical recordings to multiple media . Silent mode for single images . Image copying and backup to external media enabled . ISO speed safety shift . ISO speed and metering pattern always displayed in viewfinder and on top LCD data panel . New control layout with SET button, AF On button and Multi-Controller . Displayable camera settings and better image information during playback . Histogram display, jump display, error code display, and shooting settings display . Chassis, mirror box, and exterior covers made ofmagnesium alloy . Maintains water resistance with new 580EX II Speedlite . Personal Functions consolidated with Custom Functions, resulting in 57 Custom Functions in 4 groups . Custom Function settings can be registered and called up . Camera settings can be saved and read . Camera's basic settings can be registered and applied . New "MyMenu" function can be registered and displayed at startup . Camera direct printing (PictBridge) improved and DPOF print ordering provided . Direct printing of RAW and sRAW images . Direct image transfer . Wireless/wired LAN for image transfers via new WFT-E2A dedicated Wireless File Transmitter . External USB recording media and GPS unit usable via the WFT-E2A . Verification data can be generated, encrypted and appended to the image with new Original Data Security Kit OSK-E3 . Speedlite Custom Functions settable with the camera when the 580EXII Speedlite is attached . New software package includes Digital Photo Professional 3.0 and EOS Utility 2.0 ----------- Now Rich...-What was that you were saying about "just" live preview??? -Mark² SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson On Feb 25, 8:15 pm, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote: > >>> People got all excited when they see a new high-end Canon, but will > >>> it sell? [quoted text clipped - 129 lines] > > -Mark² So how many of the changes are going to allow you to produce markedly better images than a N or a 5D for that matter? If you put two prints of the same subject side by side, how much difference will you see? For instance, direct printing of raw images?? What good is that? Also "professional sensor cleaning system." Is there an "amateur" cleaning system? Ever heard the term, "boilerplate?" > Ever heard the term, "boilerplate?" Likewise the term snippage- Use it "oh you" of excessive reposts! SignatureWould thou choose to meet a rat eating dragon, or a dragon, eating rat? The answer of: I am somewhere in the middle. "Me who is part taoist and part Christian". > On Feb 25, 8:15 pm, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number > here)@cox..net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 142 lines] > Also "professional sensor cleaning system." Is there an "amateur" > cleaning system? Ever heard the term, "boilerplate?" OK. You knocked off two items. That leaves 46. 46 out of 48 ain't bad. As to your silly question... My 5D shoots a maximum of 3fps. Even you, RichA, can envision scenarios where fps can mean capturing that split-second moment in a sequence...or not. In the heat of some moments, you can't always anticipate every move in advance. Talk to Roger or Bill about fights between lions, or other scenes where their only regret was that they couldn't shoot fast enough...or long enough. SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson >>> ----------- >>> Now Rich...-What was that you were saying about "just" live [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Roger or Bill about fights between lions, or other scenes where their > only regret was that they couldn't shoot fast enough...or long enough. And by the way... I wouldn't be buying the MkIII if I had the MkII. How would it compare with your DSLR? SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson On Feb 25, 11:29 pm, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote: > >>> ----------- > >>> Now Rich...-What was that you were saying about "just" live [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > > And by the way... I wouldn't be buying the MkIII if I had the MkII. In other words, those 48 "upgrades" don't mean much, as I already stated. > How would it compare with your DSLR? Far more advanced, being 3.5 years newer and four times the price. > On Feb 25, 11:29 pm, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number > here)@cox..net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Far more advanced, being 3.5 years newer and four times the price. I do have a 1D Mark II, and I will upgrade. Not immediately, but after a few months (probably wait until a couple of months before the next big wildlife trip). If the astrophotographers show the III really has half the noise as indicated by Canon (which would implies read noise under and 2 electrons, very astonishing) I will buy sooner. The 10 fps is nice but would not be the draw for me. More megapixels at the same or better S/N, 14 bits, larger frame buffer and the live magnified preview are the big ticket items for me. I would have preferred 8.5 fps and 12 megapixels in a full frame format with the larger pixels so capturing more photons at high iso. 10 fps at 10 mpix = 100 megapixels/sec throughput 8.5 fps at 12 mpix = 102 megapixels/sec throughput. I have filled the buffer in the 1DII (I do not have the IIN), but rarely, but I try and manage the buffer space. I also plan to upgrade my 10D to a 30D or 5D or hopefully a nicer 40D or 5D replacement. Roger > On Feb 25, 11:29 pm, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number >> And by the way... I wouldn't be buying the MkIII if I had the MkII. > In other words, those 48 "upgrades" don't mean much, as I already > stated. I must not have been clear. Let me spell it out for you: I've been looking at high fps DSLRs for a number of years now since going mostly digital. I didn't jump to buy the 1DmII...but the significance of the updated m3 is MORE than enough to put me over the top. Many folks will see plenty of reason to upgrade their 1D2 bodies. The only reason I wouldn't (if I already had one) would be expense. I wouldn't be able to afford just snapping up another. Heck...I bought the 5D just last year. The 5D and 1Dm3 will make a nearly flawless pairing. -A completed kit, short only my longed-for 400 2.8 IS. So why will I buy the m3 where the m2 didn't quite convince me? Here are the biggies that put me over (not necessarily in this order): -ISO sensitivity (means the fact that I don't have a 400 2.8 or 500 2.8 won't be as painful in the field) -14 bit (allows greater flexibility in editing, and more) -Quality of sensel points despite the 2MP increase (likely very close to my 5D, which has no equal, noise-wise) -Wireless capabilities -AF sensitivity/flexibility increase -Dust software (not as impressed with the vibration, but the mapping software sounds very worthwhile) -Incredible burst rate (2 Digic IIIs for the same price) -Shutter durability (I plan to use this thing for many years, and the durability rating was doubled--reassuring to my pocketbook, and investment sense) -Highlight Tone Priority (could save serious time/effort in post-processing) -Storable custom WB (5 means you can store your most common shooting spots, and never need to keep updating whenever you return to the same setting) -Silent Mode Beyond that, higher fps, larger screen, lighter weight, and better battery life don't exactly hurt, either. There are many many other aspects which are highly impressive, but the above are the ones that really stand out to me. -Mark² >> How would it compare with your DSLR? > > Far more advanced, being 3.5 years newer and four times the price. SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson >So how many of the changes are going to allow you to produce markedly >better images than a N or a 5D for that matter? If you put two [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Also "professional sensor cleaning system." Is there an "amateur" >cleaning system? Ever heard the term, "boilerplate?" It's not really all about the final image of the exact same subject between the two cameras. The ability to photograph subjects that you can't do easily with other cameras is also an important point, evidently lost on you. For some types of photography (sports and animals and children, for example) the camera does matter. SignatureThe National Institutes of Health reported Monday that giving money to worthy causes stimulates exactly the same area of the brain that sex does. That explains why Bill Clinton does so much charity work. It's another way of cheating on Hillary. >> > Is the camera (for >> >a sports shooter anyway) really much of a step up from the previous [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >> - Dual DIGIC III Image Processors >> - ~1/2 lb lighter [snip] >Aside from live view, do you really think the MkIII is that radical an >upgrade from the II-N? Live View, IMO, is one of the least impressive of the new features. Cramming dual image processors inside the case is what impresses me the most. The most useful new feature might be the 14-bit A/D Conversion. So, yes, it is a "radical" upgrade. >I'm fairly certain what you are saying is not the case. If that's what you think ... stop thinking. You aren't very good at it. TR |
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