Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007
Is depth-of-field preview that useful?
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screenaccount@gmail.com - 21 Feb 2007 08:04 GMT Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it doesn't have a depth-of-field preview feature. However, although that seems like a useful feature on the surface, I have no idea whether it actually turns out to be all that useful in practice. For those of you who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves using it very often?
Pete D - 21 Feb 2007 09:23 GMT Not useful, have it on two cameras and rarely use it, the newest camera has digital DOF preview as well and that is much more useful.
> Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? Mike Coon - 21 Feb 2007 23:03 GMT > Not useful, have it on two cameras and rarely use it, the newest > camera has digital DOF preview as well and that is much more useful. Never heard of that and can't guess how it works...?
Mike.
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frederick - 21 Feb 2007 10:06 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? It is useful for macro, but it's a rough guide only, as at small apertures the screen will be dark, and the type of screens in AF cameras don't give a true indication of DOF - like could be seen on old ground glass screens. Chimping the LCD works if you don't have a DOF button. I wouldn't consider it a deal maker/breaker, but handy to have sometimes.
Joseph Meehan - 21 Feb 2007 13:03 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? There is no easy answer to that question. I find it useful, and I certainly would want it on my next camera as well, but I do not use it often. For most photos it is not an issue, however for the few where it is an issue (because I want a small carefully defined DOF or because I need a large DOF) it is very important.
Your style, subjects tolerances and preferences will make the difference.
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eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 21 Feb 2007 13:11 GMT On Feb 21, 3:04 am, screenacco...@gmail.com wrote:
> [ on the value of DOF preview ] Various ways to answer:
(a) Use it once and you'll realize it is a worthless option.
(b) Anyone who says they use it are probably lying. (Yes, it's that worthless).
(c) If you have to use it, you probably don't have enough depth of field.
(d) With a digital camera, take a picture and evaluate. Let the film freaks howl in agony at the increase in general prosperity.
When DOF is an issue in the "unreproducible shot" scenario, they remember simple approximations and do some arithmetic in their head. But few do, instead working to improve the camera-subject geometry so precise depth of field becomes unimportant.
AustinMN - 21 Feb 2007 14:23 GMT "eawckye...@yahoo.com" proved how arrogant he is by posting:
> On Feb 21, 3:04 am, screenacco...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > (b) Anyone who says they use it are probably lying. (Yes, it's that > worthless). I don't use it often, but when I do, there is no substitute, including a digital pre-shot.
> (d) With a digital camera, take a picture and evaluate. Let the film > freaks howl in agony at the increase in general prosperity. While this is how I usually check DOF (and I have to zoom in on parts of the image to really check - try that with DOF preview) there are times when I really won't get a second chance once I fire off that shot.
> When DOF is an issue in the "unreproducible shot" scenario, they > remember simple approximations and do some arithmetic in their head. > But few do, instead working to improve the camera-subject geometry so > precise depth of field becomes unimportant. Another arrogant statement by an arrogant photographer that assumes he knows how other people produce quality results.
Austin
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 21 Feb 2007 15:40 GMT On Feb 21, 9:23 am, "AustinMN" <tacooper...@hotmail.com> babbles:
> > (b) Anyone who says they use it are probably lying. (Yes, it's that > > worthless). > > I don't use it often, but when I do, there is no substitute, including > a digital pre-shot. Well, Austin, if you aren't lying then you aren't thinking. You can activate the switch and squint into the viewfinder, attempting to evaluate the dark image on the ground glass. Or you can take a picture and examine a proxy of the final product. Which is easier? Which is more reliable? Which is _faster_?
Basically, Austin, DOF preview is a relic of the film era. End of story. Full stop. Finish. Complete. In totality.
> > (d) With a digital camera, take a picture and evaluate. Let the film > > freaks howl in agony at the increase in general prosperity. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > times when I really won't get a second chance once I fire off that > shot. If there are such times, then clearly even the mechanical "preview" is equally useless. But wait! What's that? Noises from the crystal ball:
AustinMN: Ahhh, back in the day when we could flip that DOF preview and make an instant judgement call. Lots of carrots, that's all it took. Vitamin A supplements. These w.nkers these days with their digital tinsel-toys know nothing, NOTHING! Nurse: Fine, dear. Now take your medication, please.
> > When DOF is an issue in the "unreproducible shot" scenario, they > > remember simple approximations and do some arithmetic in their head. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Another arrogant statement by an arrogant photographer that assumes he > knows how other people produce quality results. sh.t, Austin, every photographer I know of has learned Lesson Zero: orient camera to maximally cover your subject with the plane of focus. And they know this because in most cases you can't stop down far enough to solve a camera/subject geometry problem. Others, so equippped, even know how to orient the lens to achieve the same result...
But I'd like to thank you for serving as the token film freak (even if you aren't one). I happen to love tweaking the film freaks. Watching them squirm in discomfort, when technology has surpassed them. Every time Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, etc cancels another film product, I give a little cheer. Why, just yesterday I went and pissed on Kodachrome's grave. Again! The day Canon and Nikon stop putting the useless "DOF preview" on their cameras -- and passing the almost certainly insignificant savings on to me -- will also be a day of great celebration. You are even invited to the party!
AustinMN - 21 Feb 2007 16:26 GMT On Feb 21, 9:40 am, "eawckye...@yahoo.com" <eawckye...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 21, 9:23 am, "AustinMN" <tacooper...@hotmail.com> babbles: > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > picture and examine a proxy of the final product. Which is easier? > Which is more reliable? Which is _faster_? The DOF preview is easier and faster except when you need a *precise* view of the DOF.
> Basically, Austin, DOF preview is a relic of the film era. End of > story. Full stop. Finish. Complete. In totality. So are mechanical sutters, so are light meters, so are grey cards. But there are people who still use them, including people who have never, ever shot film. Why? Because they serve a purpose in digital photography as well. The purpose may, insome cases, be narrow, but they are useful.
> > > (d) With a digital camera, take a picture and evaluate. Let the film > > > freaks howl in agony at the increase in general prosperity. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > digital tinsel-toys know nothing, NOTHING! > Nurse: Fine, dear. Now take your medication, please. Typical weak mind behavior. When someone shows you up, make fun of them.
> > > When DOF is an issue in the "unreproducible shot" scenario, they > > > remember simple approximations and do some arithmetic in their head. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > orient camera to maximally cover your subject with the plane of > focus. Why? I orient the camera, choose a lens, orient the camera, make lighting choices, and orient the camera *for the composition I want.* Anyone who allows the plane of focus to dictate his composition isn't a photographer. There are times when one must compromise because of reaching the limit of the camera/lens/sensor, but to simply throw away compositional control because of a lack of control over an easily controllable item is, at the least, ignorant.
> And they know this because in most cases you can't stop down > far enough to solve a camera/subject geometry problem. *keyboard*
Believe it or not, I am more often fighting with not being able to *open up* far enough to make the depth of field *shallow* enough.
> Others, so > equippped, even know how to orient the lens to achieve the same > result... If you are referring to shift lenses, I don't know anyone who uses one who does not also use DOF preview.
> But I'd like to thank you for serving as the token film freak (even if > you aren't one). I happen to love tweaking the film freaks. Again, not something you should be proud of. And no, I am not a film freak. I am a real photographer who uses the appropriate tool at the appropriate time, regardless of it's origin. You are free to use whatever tools you choose to use, but to tell me mine are useless or are only used by freaks is just plain arrogant.
Austin
Bill Funk - 21 Feb 2007 18:50 GMT >Basically, Austin, DOF preview is a relic of the film era. End of >story. Full stop. Finish. Complete. In totality. Who are you trying to convince? Yes, with the typical DSLR viewfinder, DOF preview is hard to use, but it's obviously not dead, since you see a need to tell others it's dead. Personally, if DOF is critical, I find it much easier to rely on experience, and bracket exposures to get several DOF values.
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Mike Coon - 21 Feb 2007 23:06 GMT > Basically, Austin, DOF preview is a relic of the film era. End of > story. Full stop. Finish. Complete. In totality. Is that because you would use post-processing to blur out a background that you didn't want? That would preclude entry in many photographic competitions of course. Or have you never heard of using limited DOF on purpose?
Mike.
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C J Campbell - 22 Feb 2007 05:46 GMT > On Feb 21, 9:23 am, "AustinMN" <tacooper...@hotmail.com> babbles: > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > picture and examine a proxy of the final product. Which is easier? > Which is more reliable? Which is _faster_? Yes, but then Rita B. will castigate you for 'chimping.' Oh, the horror.
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Joseph Meehan - 21 Feb 2007 17:26 GMT > On Feb 21, 3:04 am, screenacco...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (a) Use it once and you'll realize it is a worthless option. It seems a lot of us have learned to use it, sorry it appears you have not.
> (b) Anyone who says they use it are probably lying. (Yes, it's that > worthless). We all love you too.
> (c) If you have to use it, you probably don't have enough depth of > field. That explains a lot. If you think that the only use of DOF preview is to determine if there is enough DOF, you don't really understand the tool. I find it most useful when I am trying to limit the amount of DOF, not increase it.
> (d) With a digital camera, take a picture and evaluate. Let the film > freaks howl in agony at the increase in general prosperity. Well that would work well if my subject would like to hold that pose while I ran home and brought it up on my computer so I could accurately evaluate the results.
> When DOF is an issue in the "unreproducible shot" scenario, they > remember simple approximations and do some arithmetic in their head. > But few do, instead working to improve the camera-subject geometry so > precise depth of field becomes unimportant.
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Doug McDonald - 27 Feb 2007 18:00 GMT > On Feb 21, 3:04 am, screenacco...@gmail.com wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > (a) Use it once and you'll realize it is a worthless option. Use it 5 times on closeups, and you will realize that what you see is not exactly what you get, except at f/1.4 or so.
Use it 50 times on closeups and you will come to see it as invaluable.
> (b) Anyone who says they use it are probably lying. (Yes, it's that > worthless). Anyone who says that is either lying or does not do closeups.
> (c) If you have to use it, you probably don't have enough depth of > field. If you have to use it, you are generally trying for the "just right" and rather small depth of field.
> (d) With a digital camera, take a picture and evaluate. Let the film > freaks howl in agony at the increase in general prosperity. See my first answer. You have to have experience to know what a print will look like from the viewfinder, either TTL or small LCD. Sure, if you have all day and the right camera, you can blow up the picture on the LCD and see what it really looks like, at least a teensy section of the picture. Admittedly, if you actually DO have all day, this is a reasonable bottom line.
Doug McDonald
Paul Furman - 21 Feb 2007 17:06 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? I had DOF-P on my D70 and it was pretty worthless because of the dim viewfinder. On the D200 I find it very useful because the viewfinder is that much better (same on D80). It's useful for macros and anywhere that you're working with blurring out the background and gives a pretty close to accurate feel for the depth of sharpness and size of out of focus highlight circles, or when the background goes from a bunch of distracting circles to a nice soft blur. For closeups I use it to establish what is enough DOF for the subject then release to pick the final focus point. I don't think it's much help for trying to get really deep DOF as in landscapes because you can't see enough detail and at f/8, 11, etc. the viewfinder becomes too dark. On the D200 with old AI lenses, you can hold down DOF-P while turning the aperture ring and see it click click click through the range, where on modern lenses, it's a more awkward process of spinning the command dial and pressing the DOF-P button for each step.
Paul Mitchum - 22 Feb 2007 05:52 GMT > [..] I don't think it's much help for trying to get really deep DOF as in > landscapes because you can't see enough detail and at f/8, 11, etc. the > viewfinder becomes too dark. That's why you let your eyes adjust.
Tony Polson - 21 Feb 2007 22:31 GMT >Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a >Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves >using it very often? Ask yourself the following questions:
1) How important is control of depth of field to your photography?
If it is important, or very important, go to Question 2. If it is not important, you have answered your own question.
2) If control of depth of field is important to your photography, how can you manage without depth of field preview?
If you use lenses that have accurate depth of field markings that you feel you can trust, you may be able to manage without depth of field preview. After all, those of us who use rangefinder cameras can only predict depth of field from those markings on our lenses.
It does seem silly to choose an SLR, one of whose strongest advantages is being able to view the image produced by the lens, and then decline to take advantage of the SLR camera's ability to preview depth of field. The fact that you have posted your question on here at least indicates that you are aware of that.
However, even if you choose a Nikon DSLR other than the D40, you may be faced with having to install a third party accessory focusing screen in order to be able to view a representative depth of field. That is because most DSLRs have focusing screens that are designed to give the brightest possible image in the viewfinder, and that usually means that the ability to view depth of field is limited - unless of course you change that screen.
Neil Harrington - 22 Feb 2007 00:07 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? No. Over the last 40 years I've owned SLRs with and without the so-called depth-of-field preview feature, and seldom used it. It is of some use in situations such as macro and portraiture work where you want to get a vague idea of how much the depth of field is and how out of focus the rest of the picture is, and that's about all. A little experience in such photography will probably do you more good than the DoF button on the camera.
But some people evidently love it. A friend of mine insisted he used it "all the time." I don't know if he really did. People just seem to like to push the little button and imagine the viewfinder is really showing them exactly what the depth of field is. That it simply cannot do; the viewfinder cannot possibly convey the DoF as it will be in a final print or other enlarged image.
The D40 is a very fine choice as a first DSLR.
Neil
Paul Furman - 22 Feb 2007 02:36 GMT > It is of some use in > situations such as macro and portraiture work where you want to get a vague > idea of how much the depth of field is and how out of focus the rest of the > picture is, and that's about all. That is important to some people (myself included). If you are doing mostly wide angle landscapes at f/11, it is irrelevant & useless.
C J Campbell - 22 Feb 2007 05:44 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? Sometimes useful. The depth of field preview on other Nikons also triggers the i-TTL lighting so you can preview the effects of your lighting. But the D-40 doesn't even have commander mode, so that takes away a major use of the depth of field preview.
Another use of it is when taking multiple shots of a subject at different apertures so that when they are all merged together you have a larger depth of field than in any one of the shots. DOF preview helps make sure you don't get any blind spots.
The big problem with DOF preview is that it usually makes the viewfinder so dark that you do not have a clear view of the effect.
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Paul Mitchum - 22 Feb 2007 05:52 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? I don't think I could bring myself to buy a camera that didn't have a stop-down preview. Bright viewfinders and stop-down preview and mirror lock-up (or at least 2-second delay) are dealbreakers for me.
In fact, that's a big part of why I don't have a Nikon DSLR. :-)
Note also that some lens mounts will allow you to unlock the lens and turn it without taking it off, causing the aperture to stop down. I can't recall if Nikons can do this, but others can. Call it a 'poor man's DoF preview.' Remember to re-lock the lens when you're done. :-)
Marc Sabatella - 22 Feb 2007 06:10 GMT > I don't think I could bring myself to buy a camera that didn't have a > stop-down preview. Bright viewfinders and stop-down preview and mirror > lock-up (or at least 2-second delay) are dealbreakers for me. I was going to mention the mirror lockup, too. That's more of a deal-breaker to me than DOF preview, although it's also hard to imagine a situation in which I'd deliberately choose a camera without the DOF preview unless there was no other choice - and there are always other choices. Unlike the poster who called DOF preview worthless and people who say they use it liars, I *have* figured out how to use it. Another reason I personally would never consider a D40 is the lack of a focus motor - not having autofocus available on lenses that do support it seems like a huge price to pay for whatever money you save by getting this over a DSLR that fully supports AF (which is to say, pretty much every DSLR ever made *except* the D40).
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Paul Furman - 22 Feb 2007 07:26 GMT >>Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a >>Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > In fact, that's a big part of why I don't have a Nikon DSLR. :-) I take it the D200 wasn't available when you were shopping. It has a bigger brighter viewfinder than even a 5D btw ;-)
> Note also that some lens mounts will allow you to unlock the lens and > turn it without taking it off, causing the aperture to stop down. I > can't recall if Nikons can do this, but others can. Call it a 'poor > man's DoF preview.' Remember to re-lock the lens when you're done. :-) I never heard of that but the ancient Nikkors work even better for DOF-P than newer lenses.
Paul Mitchum - 22 Feb 2007 08:31 GMT > >>Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a Nikon > >>D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it doesn't have [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I take it the D200 wasn't available when you were shopping. It has a > bigger brighter viewfinder than even a 5D btw ;-) At the time, the Pentax *ist DS won the price/viewfinder takedown.
> > Note also that some lens mounts will allow you to unlock the lens and > > turn it without taking it off, causing the aperture to stop down. I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I never heard of that but the ancient Nikkors work even better for DOF-P > than newer lenses. Why would any lens work better for previewing depth of field than any other?
Paul Furman - 22 Feb 2007 08:59 GMT >>>Note also that some lens mounts will allow you to unlock the lens and >>>turn it without taking it off, causing the aperture to stop down. I [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Why would any lens work better for previewing depth of field than any >other? You can hold down the DOF preview button while turning the aperture ring without having to adjust on the body & let off the DOF button between adjustments.
C J Campbell - 22 Feb 2007 16:06 GMT >> Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a >> Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > In fact, that's a big part of why I don't have a Nikon DSLR. :-) Actually, the D200 has both a bright viewfinder and mirror lock-up. Turn the dial to Mup. Click the shutter once to lock up the mirror. Click it again to take the picture. Not even buried in a menu somewhere.
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Paul Mitchum - 22 Feb 2007 20:07 GMT > >> Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > >> Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > dial to Mup. Click the shutter once to lock up the mirror. Click it again to > take the picture. Not even buried in a menu somewhere. There wasn't a D200 when I was shopping, and it would have been out of my price range anyway.
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 22 Feb 2007 22:13 GMT > > > <screenacco...@gmail.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > There wasn't a D200 when I was shopping, and it would have been out of > my price range anyway The D70 has DOF preview..
Paul Mitchum - 23 Feb 2007 00:51 GMT [..]
> > > > I don't think I could bring myself to buy a camera that didn't have > > > > a stop-down preview. Bright viewfinders and stop-down preview and [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > The D70 has DOF preview.. ...and a crap viewfinder.
Does Nikon pay you or something? :-)
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Feb 2007 00:58 GMT > <achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> > The D70 has DOF preview.. > > ...and a crap viewfinder. Actually, the D200 viewfinder is too big for me to see comfortably with glasses, so... (with a film camera such as a minolta XD7, I can only see about 2/3 of the image without pushing my glasses against the viewfinder...)
> Does Nikon pay you or something? :-) No, I just felt like proving you wrong; so I went to dpreview and checked :) (Actually I didn't; I looked at the D70 when I was looking for a DSLR, so I knew it had DOF preview, although I personally always found it almost completely useless; especially with small viewfinders).
Paul Mitchum - 23 Feb 2007 02:18 GMT > > <achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Actually, the D200 viewfinder is [..] ...not under discussion.
> > Does Nikon pay you or something? :-) > > No, I just felt like proving you wrong; Well golly gee, ya got me. The D70 viewfinder wasn't really crap when I looked through it and compared it to the camera I ended up buying, so obviously I bought the wrong camera. What I should have done instead was wait a year in order to buy a camera that's out of my price range and that didn't fit my lenses, all so some guy on usenet wouldn't hector me about my choices a couple years after that.
Makes perfect sense. Yay Nikon!
> so I went to dpreview and checked :) > (Actually I didn't; I looked at the D70 when I was looking for a DSLR, so > I knew it had DOF preview, although I personally always found it almost > completely useless; especially with small viewfinders). So now you're telling me that you went to dpreview to fact check something for the non-existent argument with me that you invented in your head about Nikon viewfinders, but you didn't *actually* go to dpreview to do anything because you already knew it? What was the point of saying that?
Am I being too harsh here?
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Feb 2007 02:33 GMT > Am I being too harsh here? Well not really; you either didn't read my post, didn't understand what I said, or completely lack any sense of humour at all. But serves me right for attempting humour.
AustinMN - 23 Feb 2007 16:52 GMT On Feb 22, 8:33 pm, achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> > Am I being too harsh here? > > Well not really; you either didn't read my post, didn't understand > what I said, or completely lack any sense of humour at all. But serves > me right for attempting humour. Your humor wasn't lost; it was just lost on him.
Austin
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Feb 2007 21:32 GMT > Your humor wasn't lost; it was just lost on him. Ah, that's good to know!
windmtn_pete@yahoo.com - 24 Feb 2007 22:30 GMT > Note also that some lens mounts will allow you to unlock the lens and > turn it without taking it off, causing the aperture to stop down. I > can't recall if Nikons can do this, but others can. Call it a 'poor > man's DoF preview.' Wow, thanks for that tip. Just got my Nikon D40 yesterday and been trying on some of my older Nikkor lenses from 20+ years ago. Yes, "poor man's" DOF preview method does work with these lenses mounted to this camera (whew!). This should come in handy for doing macro shots.
-- Pete
> <screenacco...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > can't recall if Nikons can do this, but others can. Call it a 'poor > man's DoF preview.' Remember to re-lock the lens when you're done. :-) Alan Browne - 25 Feb 2007 21:44 GMT > Hello. After doing a bunch of research, I'm considering getting a > Nikon D40 as my first DSLR. My main concern right now is that it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > who have or have had cameras with that feature, do you find yourselves > using it very often? It's a rough guide. Use it on less than 10% of my shots (prob'y less than 5%), but I'm happy to have it when it's needed to help judge the DOF. Some of my lenses have somewhat useless lens markings for DOF.
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