Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

New Parent - DSLR vs Point and Shoot (portability vs quality)

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
skanji - 19 Feb 2007 14:16 GMT
I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
quality.

I really like the d50, but have been told that due to the size, i
won't want to carry around another bag with me.

Is there a point and shoot that is decent as well?  Or should i stick
with the dslr?

...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 19 Feb 2007 15:30 GMT
> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!

Be sure and check "full press shutter lag" if you want to record
action (e.g. baby's first step).  You want full press shutter lag
under about 100 milliseconds for action.  Many P&S cameras are too slow.
(P&S fanatics don't post about pre focus: most people can't anticipate
where baby takes his/her first step and pre focus on that spot.)
See dpreview.com for full press shutter lag.

Larger pixels give better performance at high ISO and low light.
Typical high ISO performance improvement of DSLRs over P&S are
8 to 16x.  That could be important in dim light baby's first steps
action shots.  If you only shoot in great light and static subjects,
P&S cameras take great pictures.  The smaller DSLRs are similar in size
to the larger P&S cameras.

 Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
 Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

Roger
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 19 Feb 2007 16:51 GMT
> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Is there a point and shoot that is decent as well?  Or should i stick
> with the dslr?

Roger's advice is good. Having had a similar experience recently, I
can tell you that you'll want to take pictures indoors with artificial
light, often not so bright. A p&s is almost useless for this: the AF
won't be sufficiently fast, and you'll need a fast lens and high ISOs.
If you do decide to get the D50 (or a dslr), be sure to get a 50mm f/
1.8 lens for low light shots (note that the D40 will not AF with this
lens, so I'd avoid it).

So to summarise, you will need low light ability (ie good AF in low
light and low noise at high ISOs, as well as the ability to use fast
lenses such as the cheap and fast 50mm lenses). In the light
conditions that I have in mind, you can forget about a p&s focusing
dependably if at all. And if you're thinking that you won't need these
low-light abilities, well, just wait 2 months! Anyway, you also will
appreciate the speed of the AF even in good light (as you're about to
find out, babies tend to move quickly and erratically).

As an aside, many people tell me that for exactly the purpose we're
discussing a small compact is fine, and show me photos made by p&s
cameras in very low light which are indeed not so bad on the camera
lcd or at web resolutions. But try to print them at A4 and you'll see
the problems: motion blur, misfocusing and noise ruin the image; too
high contrast and saturation make it almost unprintable etc. Save
yourself the aggravation. I have nothing against compact cameras, but
for the purpose you have in mind, you'll waste your money.

Good luck with the baby!

> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!
Paul Furman - 19 Feb 2007 18:06 GMT
>>I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
>>of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 1.8 lens for low light shots (note that the D40 will not AF with this
> lens, so I'd avoid it).

Yes I agree the best choice is a D50 with a 50mm f/1.8 lens. As the kid
starts moving more, it will move fast and that's not something you can
capture with a point & shoot camera in low light. The D40 won't
autofocus on fast lenses. If you want to do low light family gatherings,
look at the Sigma 30mm f/1.4 at about $430 as well since the 50mm is not
wide enough for group shots in tight indoor spaces. If you don't mind
cranking up the ISO for grainy images, the D40 and kit lens may suffice,
a P&S won't even come close, that will cripple your ability to shoot
what you want.

> So to summarise, you will need low light ability (ie good AF in low
> light and low noise at high ISOs, as well as the ability to use fast
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>>...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 19 Feb 2007 18:17 GMT
> If you don't mind
> cranking up the ISO for grainy images, the D40 and kit lens may suffice,

I doubt that. He'll really want to take photographs in low artificial
light for which ISO 1600 at f/5.6 isn't really enough. From
experience, ISO 1600 and f/1.8 is barely enough in some situations
like this. Of course, if he decides he only wants to take photos of
the baby outside during the day, he could also use a p&s, but I
guarantee he'll change his mind very quickly.
David J Taylor - 19 Feb 2007 16:56 GMT
> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!

Get something for taking short movies as well - either a movie camera to
go with your DSLR or a non-SLR with good movie capabilities.  Movies can
add a lot to the still image....

For a "handbag" camera I recently got this one - but it needs care
indoors:

 http://www.digicamreview.co.uk/ricoh_caplio_r5_review.htm

David
skanji - 19 Feb 2007 17:31 GMT
So is a nikon d50 or canon xt/i the best way to go?  I suppose the
basic lense is ok for now?
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 19 Feb 2007 18:07 GMT
> So is a nikon d50 or canon xt/i the best way to go?  I suppose the
> basic lense is ok for now?

The basic lens is very slow. I suggest you also get a 50mm f/1.8. This
will allow, for example, a shot at 1/80s where the kit lens would need
1/10s (at 55mm, both the Canon and Nikon 18-55 are f/5.6; I just
checked).  At around 50mm, 1/80s is easily handholdable, 1/10s is
impossible to handhold. The 50mm f/1.8 lenses are quite cheap.
Paul Furman - 19 Feb 2007 18:15 GMT
> So is a nikon d50 or canon xt/i the best way to go?

Correct.

> I suppose the basic lense is ok for now?

If budget isn't a problem get a Sigma 30mm f/1.4 lens. Verify whether it
will autofocus on a D40, no problem on a D50 or Canon. The kit lenses
will all be too slow to get good images in low light. You really do not
need a zoom lens, only the very expensive zooms are reasonably fast and
with a normal field of view you can capture most anything for family
shots. A 28mm f/2.8 lens is a reasonable compromise for about the same
price for either Canon or Nikon and might be a little more compact than
the Sigma.
skanji - 19 Feb 2007 18:32 GMT
Canada question...

I know Sears had the Canon Rebel XTI xti kit on sale for $850 (CDN) a
couple of months ago.  This was the black one with the 18-55 lens.  I
missed it as I was out of town.  I suppose I don't need the 18-55 Lens
and will pick up the 50mm f/1.8 Lens instead.

Do you guys know of the d50 or xti at this pricepoint?  I guess I
could get it used from Henry's for about the $500 range without a
Lens.
Jim Thurman - 19 Feb 2007 20:08 GMT
Get the D40 with the kit lens (you can't actually buy it without the lens in
most cases. I bought two of them for Christmas presents for my son and
daughter and they love them. The D40 is the smallest, lightest Dslr out
there, so far, and you can set it on full auto and use it as an outstanding
point-and-shoot, or go aperature or shutter preferred or manual...depending
on the situation.

The image quality is outstanding and the viewfinder and LCD screen on the
back are great....much better than what I've seen on similarly priced
cameras. Go to your local camera store and hold the D40 and the other
cameras you'reconsidering, and you'll see ehat I mean. Get it, you won't
regret it and won't be tempted to leave it at home because of the size and
weight, the way you might with the Canon.

> Canada question...
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> could get it used from Henry's for about the $500 range without a
> Lens.
skanji - 19 Feb 2007 20:17 GMT
I think the reason I liked the D50 over the D40 was that it had image
stabilization...

> Get the D40 with the kit lens (you can't actually buy it without the lens in
> most cases. I bought two of them for Christmas presents for my son and
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> > could get it used from Henry's for about the $500 range without a
> > Lens.
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 19 Feb 2007 20:22 GMT
> Get the D40 with the kit lens (you can't actually buy it without the lens in
> most cases. I bought two of them for Christmas presents for my son and
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> regret it and won't be tempted to leave it at home because of the size and
> weight, the way you might with the Canon.

However, the D40 does not autofocus with the 50mm f/1.8 lens. The kit
lens is f/5.6 at the long end, so using it at ISO 1600 will result in
the same shutter speed that the 50mm f/1.8 lens will give at ISO 200;
so in low light, one can either use ISO 200 instead of 1600 for much
less noise (if there's enough light) or use a shutter speed 8 times
higher (if light is low). I think this is significant if he plans to
use it for photographing the baby (I know this from personal
experience). Or he could get the D40 with the sigma 30mm f/1.4 lens,
but that's 4 times the price of the 50mm f/1.8.

If it was me, I'd get the D50 with the kit lens and the 50mm lens.
skanji - 19 Feb 2007 21:17 GMT
On Feb 19, 3:22 pm, achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> > Get the D40 with the kit lens (you can't actually buy it without the lens in
> > most cases. I bought two of them for Christmas presents for my son and
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>
> If it was me, I'd get the D50 with the kit lens and the 50mm lens.

When you say get the D50 with the kit lens...what would you do with
18-55 lens??  If I just buy the body only and purchase the 50mm f/1.8
Lens, would that not suffice?  Can't this lens be my everyday lens?
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 19 Feb 2007 22:31 GMT
> On Feb 19, 3:22 pm, achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> 18-55 lens??  If I just buy the body only and purchase the 50mm f/1.8
> Lens, would that not suffice?  Can't this lens be my everyday lens?

Well, I don't know how much you know about these things, so I'll
pretend you know absolutely nothing (no offence!). The 50mm lens is a
fixed focal length lens; so it does not zoom. When it is mounted on
the camera, you look through it, and, if you don't like the framing,
you can't do anything about it  except move around. The kit lens is a
zoom; so you can zoom with it. Zoom lenses are more convenient. Most
people don't put a fixed focal length lens on the camera and walk
around a city when they're on holidays, they put a zoom. But fixed
focal length lenses can have higher optical quality and, more
importantly, faster apertures (such as the 50mm f/1.8 I suggested,
which is not expensive either).

Anyway, of course you could use it for your everyday lens, but most
people find a 18-50 or thereabouts zoom quite convenient overall. If
you can afford it, get both (how much does the kit zoom add to the
price?). If you can't, I personally would get the 50mm only, but do
keep in mind that it may feel quite limiting (eg if you want to
photograph relatives sitting on a table, it's probably too long, and
so on). But it will enable you to take photographs in dimly lit areas
which the kit lens won't.
Paul Furman - 20 Feb 2007 00:13 GMT
>>On Feb 19, 3:22 pm, achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>>18-55 lens??  If I just buy the body only and purchase the 50mm f/1.8
>>Lens, would that not suffice?  Can't this lens be my everyday lens?

The 50mm lens is too narrow a view for normal use. You won't be able to
get a group of people to fit in a small room and you won't be able to
capture the wider scerery on picnics & vacations. That's why I suggest a
28 or 30mm lens. People used to use that field of view as their primary
walkaround lens because it matches the human field of view so it's very
useful. The 50mm lens is great for portraits of a single person but
that's easy enough to just walk closer with the 30mm lens. I think the
Sigma 30mm will actually work but it's probably true that you can't get
that camera without a kit lens. I'm suggesting the D50 because you can
get one inexpensively and the 30 or 28mm lens. Also putting a 50mm lens
on the D40 you won't have autofocus and the viewfinder is too small to
manually focus in my opinion. The 50mm is so affordable you could get a
used D50, 30mm f/1.4 and a 50mm f/1.8 for about the same price as the
D40 with kit lens. The compactness of the D40 is appealing though I
wouldn't get that unless you are also willing to shell out for the 28 or
30mm fast lens because that little kid is going to be a difficult target
to catch with a slow kit zoom.

> Well, I don't know how much you know about these things, so I'll
> pretend you know absolutely nothing (no offence!). The 50mm lens is a
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> so on). But it will enable you to take photographs in dimly lit areas
> which the kit lens won't.
Matt Clara - 19 Feb 2007 23:39 GMT
> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!

Only you can tell whether it's too much to carry.  Hey, it weighs next to
nothing, and, in terms of image quality, the nikon D70 dusts my wife's 7 mp
Elph, which will fit in any pocket you'd care to imagine.  There's also the
issue of shutter lag--the D70 has none, the elph has some.
--
www.mattclara.com
wiyum - 20 Feb 2007 00:44 GMT
Everyone has given great advice, but I'll throw in my opinion based on
my experiences.

First, it goes without saying that you want a DSLR. Children
(especially as they age) don't stay still for very long. For this
reason, you'll want both the optical (instead of electronic) viewing
of the scene and the improved shutter performance. The first relates
to watching the scene through the lens as opposed to on an LCD, which
will have some delay. The second relates to the delay between pressing
the shutter and the picture being taken. Both of these delays are
being minimized with newer digicams, but a DSLR is still much better
in both regards.

Also, a DSLR is quicker with autofocus, and it is easier to see if you
truly have focus. This won't matter much when the child is in the
crib, but once they start waddling around the living room, it'll be
all you can do to keep up with your framing.... focus only gets harder
to track.

As for what lens to get with a DSLR, I can only repeat the suggestion
of a 50mm/1.8 prime lens. If you get only one lens, make sure this is
the one you get. The kit lens, in addition to being a zoom lens, will
be a "slow" lens, requiring more light. The "fast" 50mm will
definitely allow you to get a world of pictures that you'd never get
with the kit lens. Outside during the day, it won't make a difference
in terms of light, but inside it will make all the difference.

Will you want another lens? Not *now* if you're really just getting
the camera to take pictures of the child. On a cropped-frame DSLR
(which you'd be getting), a 50mm is a "portrait" lens, so it is a bit
"longer" (zoomed in for lack of a better explanation) than you'd want
for many situations. If you want to use the camera for other things,
the kit lens would be a good investment. If you don't, then the 50mm
will work great for everything until he/she begins walking. Once a
child starts moving around, you'll want to be wider some of the time.
The kit lens will work for this, except it still has the need for more
light. Presumably, there's more light wherever these memories are
taking place, but if you want to avoid worrying about that, a 28mm or
35mm prime lens is the best choice. These focal lengths are
approxamately "normal" on these DSLRs, so things will neither feel
very "zoomed in" nor very "zoomed out." Just right.

Personally, when I'm shooting my younger cousins I almost always have
my 28mm or 50mm lens mounted. That both are faster than any kit lens
has either allowed me to get pictures I'd never have gotten or get
pictures I could have gotten but at a higher quality (lower ISO, so
lower noise).

So to review, get the fast 50mm lens. Get the kit lens if you'll be
using the camera for plenty more than just documenting the child, and
consider a 28 or 35mm lens either now or when your child starts
walking around and moving alot.

Which camera? If Nikon, get the D50. Anything else would be overkill.
If Canon, get the Rebel XT (not the XTI). Both are outstanding
cameras. The Canon will offer you cleaner images at high ISO, higher
resolution, and Canon makes some "faster" prime lenses if you're going
to get more than just the 50mm, but these aren't terribly important
reasons to avoid the Nikon. If you like the feel of the D50 get that.
Take care of it and it'll last you well into the first soccer games
(at which point you'll need to go lens shopping again).

Congratulations, and good luck camera shopping,

Will
skanji - 20 Feb 2007 01:46 GMT
> Everyone has given great advice, but I'll throw in my opinion based on
> my experiences.
[quoted text clipped - 61 lines]
>
> Will

Folks - just wanted to thank everyone for their comments.  I've got a
lot to learn about dslr cameras - including figuring out what the heck
ISO levels are (but think I have a better idea now!)

Thanks to everyone for posting - will continue to check in and
ultimately let you guys know which camera i get.  Hope this post helps
parents in the future!
Ståle Sannerud - 20 Feb 2007 12:02 GMT
> Folks - just wanted to thank everyone for their comments.  I've got a
> lot to learn about dslr cameras - including figuring out what the heck
> ISO levels are (but think I have a better idea now!)

The ISO number specifies the light-sensitivity of the camera's sensor. The
higher the ISO number, the less light the camera needs to get a correctly
exposed photo. The lower the ISO number, the more light the camera needs BUT
the cleaner the images are. A high ISO number invariably means more image
noise, ie coloured speckles where there should be a uniform colour. The
amount of noise varies all the way from "not noticeable" to "utterly
horrendous", depending on camera type and sensor technology, and gets worse
the higher the ISO number. To a large extent it can be dealt with by
post-processing the image on a computer, but the best option is to have as
little of it as possible in the first place. And the best way to do that is
to feed the sensor enough light to begin with.

You can increase the amount of light reaching the sensor by opening up the
aperture of the camera lens (but there is a hard limit on how far you can
go, this is built-in to the lens) or by increasing the shutter times (but
there is a pretty hard limit on how long you can hold the camera steady, AND
on how long the subject will remain motionless... for a child this is best
measured in nanoseconds) or by using a flash (but effective flash use is an
art unto itself; nothing is easier than taking a really crappy flash-lit
photo). Some cameras do offer "image stabilization" of various kinds, this
allows you to hand-hold the camera steady for longer periods of time and is
an excellent way of getting images of very sharp furniture with very blurry
people.

So - we are usually left with no option but to increase the ISO number to
get the shot.

ISO numbers are linear. ISO 200 needs only half as much light as ISO 100,
ISO 400 needs half as much as ISO 200 and so on.

In film days, the typical consumer film was something like Kodak colour
negative, 400 ISO. This was good enough for general purpose shooting and
gave decent image quality. Nature photographers often used positive,
"slide", film, at ISO 50. This meant that they needed long exposure times to
let in enough light to the film, but gave superiour image quality.
Photo-journalists could use black-and-white negative film, ISO 1600. This
gave pretty crappy image quality with lots and lots of visible film grain
(though good enough for newspaper use) but allowed them to take pictures
anywhere, any time. If you needed a different light sensitivity you had to
change the film in the camera.

In digital cameras the ISO is freely adjustable, within limits. The best
image quality is found at a low ISO number, just like with film. At ISO 100
any digital camera ever released will (or at least: had better) give you
good images with little or no unwanted noise. At ISO 100 you have to have a
lot of light though - think "direct sunlight shining on the subject" here!

On a compact point-and-shoot camera, image quality typically deteriorates
FAST once you select higher ISO numbers. By ISO 400 quality is usually
pretty crappy, ISO 800 is a bad joke.

Digital SLR cameras have much larger image sensors than the
point-and-shoots, anything up to 10 times the size. And when it comes to
image quality at higher ISO numbers, sensor size matters. Any DLSR camera
worth its salt gives excellent image quality at ISO 400 and anything between
"good" and "excellent" at ISO 800. ISO 1600 should be quite useable. Some
even perform decently at ISO 3200. And at ISO 3200 the sensor needs only
1/32 of the light it needs at ISO 100!

For indoors use, in typical indoors lighting without a flash, I find that
ISO 800 is a minimum - and that with a fast (ie. expensive) lens. ISO 1600
is probably a more realistic starting point. And that means a DSLR or
nothing, I am afraid, although some of the new Fuji compacts look promising
in the high-ISO stakes.

From what I have seen Canon DSLR cameras do a better job at high ISO (800
and higher) than Nikon ones, Canon uses a different sensor technology than
everybody else and this seems to be the thing that their sensors excel at. I
must add though that I haven't used anything newer than a Nikon D70 and
newer Nikon models may well be greatly improved in this regard. (Nothing
beats a Canon 5D or 1DsII of course, but you don't even want to consider the
price-tags of those!)
Toby - 20 Feb 2007 04:36 GMT
I have a Nikon D200 dslr and recently purchased a Fuji F30 as a carryaround.
It's apples and oranges, and you have to decide whether you want portability
vs functionality, more than portability vs quality IMO. The F30 (now the
F31d) is well built and takes quite nice pictures, even in low light:

www.dcresource.com/reviews/fuji/finepix_f30-review/

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/FujifilmF30/

If you need portability this camera will give you very decent shots, but in
terms of functionality it is no match for the dslrs. First, the reflexes
have interchangeable lenses, and you have an eye level viewfinder, and
generally much quicker cycle times, so that you can take a number of shots
in a short time. But of course you cannot slip those things into a pocket.
The Fuji is always there when I want it, and the battery life is excellent,
not to mention that it has a good 2.5" viewing screen so you can always pull
it out to show people pix of the new baby...

Personally in your situation I would go with a good point'n'shoot. It will
give you very decent prints that can be printed 11x14 without big problems.
If you are not committed to carrying a camera around your neck whenever you
are out with the family its convenience will ultimately make up for its
limitations IMO. OTOH if you enjoy photography and want to use this as a way
to deepen your commitment to it, then perhaps the dslr would make sense...

Toby

> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!
Aad - 20 Feb 2007 10:54 GMT
> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!

Looking at the emotional value of the pictures. There's no difference at
all.
If you want technicaly better pictures, go for a dslr.
The difference between these two will depent on youre investment.
Both financialy and in the willing to learn about youre camera.
Right  out of the box (on green) the compact will give you better results.
Of you invest time to study the techs and possibilities, the dslr will win.
Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?
J. Clarke - 20 Feb 2007 11:10 GMT
>> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
>> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>Of you invest time to study the techs and possibilities, the dslr will win.
>Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?

The people who say "get a point and shoot" generally go on about the
inconvenience of carrying a bag of lenses.

I've never understood this.  Even if one has a bag of lenses, which
most SLR owners do not, there is no need to carry it with you at all
times.  A Nikon wtih the 18-200VR will cover the overwhelming majority
of shooting situations better than a point-and-shoot.  No "bag of
lenses" required.
Adrian Boliston - 20 Feb 2007 11:41 GMT
> The people who say "get a point and shoot" generally go on about the
> inconvenience of carrying a bag of lenses.
>
> I've never understood this.  Even if one has a bag of lenses, which
> most SLR owners do not, there is no need to carry it with you at all
> times....

I've got 4 lenses (85mm, 50mm, 35mm & 17-55 zoom) but I tend to decide on a
lens and use it exclusively rather than swapping lenses while I'm out.  I
don't normally even carry a bag for that matter.

cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk
David J Taylor - 20 Feb 2007 14:48 GMT
[]
> The people who say "get a point and shoot" generally go on about the
> inconvenience of carrying a bag of lenses.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> of shooting situations better than a point-and-shoot.  No "bag of
> lenses" required.

Were I to get a DSLR, a Nikon D40 with the 18 - 200mm VR would indeed be a
tempting option.  But it does cost and weight somewhat more than a non-SLR
camera and is not something you can slip into the trouser pocket.  Both
have their place.  Oh, and you have lost some of the low-light advantage
of the DSLR by choosing an f/5.6 lens.

David
J. Clarke - 20 Feb 2007 15:57 GMT
>[]
>> The people who say "get a point and shoot" generally go on about the
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>have their place.  Oh, and you have lost some of the low-light advantage
>of the DSLR by choosing an f/5.6 lens.

Some, but not all.  Don't know first hand about the D40 but the 30D
does as well at 1600 as my FZ7 does at 200.   And that 5.6 is at the
long end, where the point and shoot also usually takes a hit.

As for fitting in a trouser pocket, an FZ7 isn't a comfortable fit in
a trouser pocket and an FZ20 is even bigger.  If you want a true
trouser pocket camera you have to give up quite a lot.
David J Taylor - 20 Feb 2007 18:31 GMT
[]
> As for fitting in a trouser pocket, an FZ7 isn't a comfortable fit in
> a trouser pocket and an FZ20 is even bigger.  If you want a true
> trouser pocket camera you have to give up quite a lot.

28 - 200mm image stabilised...

 http://www.digicamreview.co.uk/ricoh_caplio_r5_review.htm

Yes, of course it has compromises, but it does fit in the pocket.

Cheers,
David
J. Clarke - 20 Feb 2007 20:12 GMT
>[]
>> As for fitting in a trouser pocket, an FZ7 isn't a comfortable fit in
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Yes, of course it has compromises, but it does fit in the pocket.

The biggest compromise I see is that the only place it seems to be
available from anyone who claims to actually have it in stock is ebay.
David J Taylor - 20 Feb 2007 21:26 GMT
>> []
>>> As for fitting in a trouser pocket, an FZ7 isn't a comfortable fit
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> The biggest compromise I see is that the only place it seems to be
> available from anyone who claims to actually have it in stock is ebay.

It's on regular retail sale in the UK - indeed, it was on discount at
Jessops just recently.  You can probably buy it over the Internet and
import it.

David
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 20 Feb 2007 13:00 GMT
> > of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
> > quality.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Looking at the emotional value of the pictures. There's no difference at
> all.

But you have to be able to take the picture. Try taking it with a
compact in an average living room in the evening, and keep in mind
that the baby will be moving. Trust me, I know what I am talking
about. It seems the OP doesn't want to spend all this money, and I
understand that; but if he gets a compact for this purpose, he'll just
waste his money. The more expensive the compact, the more money
wasted.

Of course the emotional value is supposed to be there if the image is
recognizably the baby, but he'll get tired quickly after missing the
moment he wanted, getting blurry, out of focus and extremely noise
images etc.

Seriously, before you suggest that they both work, try it. I also
thought that differences other than image quality and interchangeable
lenses can be worked around, but it's not true (luckily, I had a DSLR
and lenses already).

> If you want technicaly better pictures, go for a dslr.
> The difference between these two will depent on youre investment.
> Both financialy and in the willing to learn about youre camera.
> Right  out of the box (on green) the compact will give you better results.
> Of you invest time to study the techs and possibilities, the dslr will win.
> Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?
Aad - 20 Feb 2007 22:53 GMT
>> having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
>> > of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> waste his money. The more expensive the compact, the more money
> wasted.

When you buy a dslr with the kitlens you will not be able to take this
difficult pictures either.
(kitlens f4, most decent compacts f2 or f2,8)
If you use the built in flash it will look just as bad.
When you know how to use the compact is will give you decent pictures.
Use things like pre-focus, fixed iso and fixed aperture and exposure lock.
That will give you a lot of extra speed. (the cam doesn't need to calculate
the whole bunch in this way)
I use both. The most important thing is to know you're gear and especially
the -im-possibilities.
If you know anything about it. Try it and you will see the difference.

> Of course the emotional value is supposed to be there if the image is
> recognizably the baby, but he'll get tired quickly after missing the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>> win.
>> Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?
J. Clarke - 20 Feb 2007 23:59 GMT
>>> having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
>>> > of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>difficult pictures either.
>(kitlens f4, most decent compacts f2 or f2,8)

Very few compacts have f/2.0 lenses.  In any case you are neglecting
the much better high ISO performance of the DSLR.

>If you use the built in flash it will look just as bad.
>When you know how to use the compact is will give you decent pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>>> win.
>>> Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?
Aad - 21 Feb 2007 02:36 GMT
>>>> I'm
>>>> having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Very few compacts have f/2.0 lenses.  In any case you are neglecting
> the much better high ISO performance of the DSLR.

Yes, but al lot of them start at f2,8. (my old sony 717 did have f2)
About the iso youre right. (getting better and better these days)
What about all the other options I've mentioned? About the speed?

>>If you use the built in flash it will look just as bad.
>>When you know how to use the compact is will give you decent pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>>>> win.
>>>> Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?
J. Clarke - 21 Feb 2007 04:20 GMT
>>>>> I'm
>>>>> having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>About the iso youre right. (getting better and better these days)
>What about all the other options I've mentioned? About the speed?

If one shooting 1600 at f/4 with the DSLR one will generally get a
better result than shooting 800 at f/2.8 with the compact.

And for 80 bucks you can get an f/1.8 lens for a Canon.

As for speed, while it's possible to get reasonable shutter lag out of
some compacts, it takes skill and knowledge, you have to understand
the settings on your camera in some detail and practice the use of
half-press until it becomes automatic.  And not all compacts allow
this.

>>>If you use the built in flash it will look just as bad.
>>>When you know how to use the compact is will give you decent pictures.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>>>>> win.
>>>>> Millions of people are happy with snaps. And you?
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 21 Feb 2007 00:01 GMT
> <achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk> schreef in berichtnews:1171976415.291814.21590@q2g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> difficult pictures either.
> (kitlens f4, most decent compacts f2 or f2,8)

Did you bother to read any of the previous posts? This is pointed out.
Also, the kit lenses are f/5.6 at 55mm (I checked), even worse. As for
most compacts having f/2, well, a) most don't have f/2 b) of the ones
that do, most end up at f/5 or worse at the long end, c) a dslr has
more than the 2 or 3 stops of advantage assumed given by the lens (but
anyway, most people did suggest he get the 50mm f/1.8 lens). I don't
see how we can even discuss any of the three points above, they're
facts.

> If you use the built in flash it will look just as bad.

Indeed. Hence the suggestion to get the 50mm f/1.8. I also don't
really think a 3 week old (say) sleeping baby will enjoy a flash going
off into his/her face.

> When you know how to use the compact is will give you decent pictures.

In situations where ISO 1600 and f/1.8 needs 1/20s? I doubt it.

> Use things like pre-focus, fixed iso and fixed aperture and exposure lock.

This will not help. As I stated before, I also thought that the
disadvantages of compacts (other than high ISO performance) could be
worked around in this situation, but they cannot. So even without a
high-ISO advantage, I think he'd need a dslr. And he really will need
low light performace, too.

> That will give you a lot of extra speed. (the cam doesn't need to calculate
> the whole bunch in this way)
> I use both. The most important thing is to know you're gear and especially
> the -im-possibilities.

But this is what I am saying! This isn't a case of equipment snobbery
or anything like that, it is simply not possible to cover some of the
situations he'll want to cover with a compact. Where are you going to
prefocus if you're photographing your baby's face in low light and
he's moving? Won't you want to record the colour of his eyes changing
day by day later? Or are you going to put his crib on the balcony to
get enough light for your compact to focus?

> If you know anything about it. Try it and you will see the difference.

Ah, I saw this sentence only now. I wouldn't have bothered responding
if I had seen it earlier. OK, I have never tried any of this and know
nothing. You're right, prefocusing and fixing the ISO to some value
will let your compact photograph your baby having a bath and splashing
around at LV 1 and incadescent light with usable results (focused, not
much noise). Amazing how I could have missed it.
C J Campbell - 20 Feb 2007 16:41 GMT
> I'm having a kid in 2 months and am in a real dilema as to what kind
> of digital camera I should get.  The main issue is portability vs
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> ...any thoughts you guys could provide would be appreciated!

The DSLR makes things a lot easier, not harder. The D50 is not much bigger
than a point and shoot anyway.

Now, if you want a pocket camera, that is fine. There are real good reasons
for having both!

Signature

Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.