Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Interesting new Canon comments.

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
Skip - 11 Feb 2007 01:32 GMT
From a respected source, if not always spot on...
http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Mark² - 11 Feb 2007 05:47 GMT
> From a respected source, if not always spot on...
> http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html

Wow.
I think a high-frame-rate 5D sensor...housed in a 1V body...would be just
about perfect.  One of the things I wish the 5D had was higher frame-rate.
If Canon can muster 12.8MP at 8.5fps (or some such number), then I'll be
setting my sights on that camera at some point.  I'm convinced 12.8 MP is
about as good a use use of the full frame sensor size in terms of
noise/pixel-size.  The pairing of a 5D body and wide angle...together with a
same-sensor 1D/1V fps with tele would make for a powerful combo.

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Mark² - 11 Feb 2007 05:48 GMT
> From a respected source, if not always spot on...
> http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html

I don't see a date on this commentary.
Any clues?

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Charles - 11 Feb 2007 05:58 GMT
>> From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>> http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
>
>I don't see a date on this commentary.
>Any clues?

10 February 2007

http://www.imx.nl/
The Lone Gunman - 11 Feb 2007 16:18 GMT
: From a respected source, if not always spot on...
: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html

Thanks for the link.  Can I imply from this article that there will never be
a full-frame, digital SLR from Canon in the <$2000 category?  I keep hoping
(and holdout out for) such a beast but me thinks it's never going to pass.
:-(

TLG
Bill Funk - 11 Feb 2007 17:01 GMT
>: From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>TLG

Never say "never."
:-)

Signature

Rudy Giuliani began seeking
the GOP presidential nomination
on Tuesday. He's pro-choice,
pro-gay marriage, pro-gun control
and he did a skit in drag that
is on the Internet. If Osama
bin Laden hadn't attacked him
Pat Robertson would have.

RichA - 11 Feb 2007 19:17 GMT
> : From a respected source, if not always spot on...
> :http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> TLG

Sure they'll be.  All they have to do is.....put it in a plastic body
and supply the 18-55mm kit lens!
Mark² - 11 Feb 2007 20:59 GMT
>> From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>> http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I keep hoping (and holdout out for) such a beast but me thinks it's
> never going to pass. :-(

Actually, there nearly is RIGHT NOW.
Costco sells the 5D+ the 28-135 IS lens for $2599 after rebate.  If you
subtract the normal price of the lens, it means you're paying +/- $2100 for
the full-frame 5D.  That's darn close to your desire already.  It will only
improve.

Mark²
Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Alan Browne - 11 Feb 2007 21:08 GMT
> Costco sells the 5D+ the 28-135 IS lens for $2599 after rebate.  If you
> subtract the normal price of the lens, it means you're paying +/- $2100 for
> the full-frame 5D.  That's darn close to your desire already.  It will only
> improve.

Don't tempt me.  That is so borderline close to getting me to jump...

In Canada, it's $3,300 (body only) [ US$2800 at current rates].  Costco
Canada don't carry anything more ambitious than the DigRebXT.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Mark² - 11 Feb 2007 21:13 GMT
>> Costco sells the 5D+ the 28-135 IS lens for $2599 after rebate.  If
>> you subtract the normal price of the lens, it means you're paying
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> In Canada, it's $3,300 (body only) [ US$2800 at current rates]. Costco
> Canada don't carry anything more ambitious than the DigRebXT.

This is via Costco.com.  Perhaps you should check there.
They only sell the Rebel in-store here, too.

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Alan Browne - 11 Feb 2007 21:55 GMT
>>>Costco sells the 5D+ the 28-135 IS lens for $2599 after rebate.  If
>>>you subtract the normal price of the lens, it means you're paying
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> This is via Costco.com.  Perhaps you should check there.
> They only sell the Rebel in-store here, too.

I realize that, but to get the Canon rebate you need to have a US address...

Cheers,
Alan

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Mark² - 11 Feb 2007 22:06 GMT
>>>> Costco sells the 5D+ the 28-135 IS lens for $2599 after rebate.  If
>>>> you subtract the normal price of the lens, it means you're paying
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan

Do you know someone in the US who could help you buy it?
If not, I could do that...

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Alan Browne - 11 Feb 2007 22:10 GMT
> Do you know someone in the US who could help you buy it?
> If not, I could do that...

I've got a cousin near Boston to help with that... and other friends.  I
bought a meter at B&H and had it sent to corporate office near a trade
show in one instance...

But thanks!  IAC, I did say borderline!  (Also I just bought the Nikon
9000 ED and my next major purchase will be either a lens for the
Hasselblad or a 10/12 Mpix body from Sony).

Cheers,
Alan

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Tony Polson - 11 Feb 2007 22:14 GMT
>: From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>: http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
>
>Thanks for the link.  Can I imply from this article that there will never be
>a full-frame, digital SLR from Canon in the <$2000 category?  I keep hoping
>(and holdout out for) such a beast but me thinks it's never going to pass.

The comments on Erwin Puts' web site are as interesting for what they
don't predict as for what they do.

Canon has more new DSLR models up its sleeve than these two.
RichA - 11 Feb 2007 19:14 GMT
> From a respected source, if not always spot on...http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
>
> --
> Skip Middletonwww.shadowcatcherimagery.comwww.pbase.com/skipm

Guy is an idiot.  Why not make it 2.35:1, like really wide screen
movies, and waste even more lens real estate?
TV has nothing to do with it, 4:3 tvs are going away in the U.S. and
have been in Europe for nearly a decade.  The fact remains that most
printed photo reproductions are closer to 4:3 than to 3:2.

"It was and it is my view that the 35mm format and the matched optics
to create classical viewing angles and classical depth of field
gradients, in addition to the artistic aspects of using the 2:3 format
that has to be mastered before you can compose interesting pictures.

Olympus went for the easy way with the 4:3 format, that is much easier
to use and conforms to the ubiquitous TV screen format that is a
constant visual companion on today's culture."
Lionel - 11 Feb 2007 23:29 GMT
>From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html

Hm. And now it's vanished:

"Not Found
The requested URL /photosite/comments/c031.html was not found on this
server.
Apache/1.3.34 Server at www.imx.nl Port 80"
Pete D - 12 Feb 2007 19:32 GMT
>>From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>>http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> server.
> Apache/1.3.34 Server at www.imx.nl Port 80"

It's called " Doing a Douglas", now you see me now you don't.
Mark² - 12 Feb 2007 19:38 GMT
>>> From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>>> http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> It's called " Doing a Douglas", now you see me now you don't.

More likely, it's called, "Canon told him he was violating the gag order."

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Lionel - 12 Feb 2007 23:48 GMT
>>>> From a respected source, if not always spot on...
>>>> http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>More likely, it's called, "Canon told him he was violating the gag order."

That's my guess too, seeing as the marketeers tease us this way every
year, around this time.
Did anyone think to save a copy of the page? I stupidly forgot to do
so before closing the browser (for an unrelated reason).
frederick - 13 Feb 2007 00:54 GMT
> Did anyone think to save a copy of the page? I stupidly forgot to do
> so before closing the browser (for an unrelated reason).

removing stuff doesn't work.
It's cached on google at:
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:CGbKij0CGHMJ:www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c
031.html+http://www.imx.nl/photosite/comments/c031.html&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=nz


Alternately, the texts here below:

Canon high end strategy goes for 35mm format
New Canon high-end cameras announced: D1 and D1S models with 35mm format
sensor area.

In my original article about the Canon 5D I reflected on the technical
and more philosophical aspects of the barnack -format for digital
cameras. I noted that the 5D was a milestone camera because of
feasibility of a large sensor at an affordable price. It was and it is
my view that the 35mm format and the matched optics to create classical
viewing angles and classical depth of field gradients, in addition to
the artistic aspects of using the 2:3 format that has to be mastered
before you can compose interesting pictures.

Olympus went for the easy way with the 4:3 format, that is much easier
to use and conforms to the ubiquitous TV screen format that is a
constant visual companion on today's culture.

In the current issue of AP, Geoffrey Crawley looks at the aspects of
image quality tht is attainable with the full format (35mm) and the
APS-C format that is roughly equivalent to half frame, and retains the
2:3 relation. He concludes that image wise there is a draw: both sensor
areas deliver the same imagery. He compares two systems that have about
the same pixel size and then it is not surprising that theoretically and
with test charts the same image quality is possible. But there is much
more to analyse here. In my comparison of the M8 with the 5D, the Canon
gave somewhat better resolution despite having a larger pixel size. It
is the software stupid! You can hear Bill Clinton shouting. And my
Siemens star results indicated that the MTF values in the region from
30% to 10% of the Nyquist maximum are critical for effective image quality.

Presumably the debate will go on for a while and that is fine. We simply
do not know that much about digital capture and digital processing as we
know about chemical processing the silver halide grain. Here we have an
history of 100 years of cumulative experience, but in the digital arena
our knowledge spans hardly a decade. And myths are already all over the
place!

You can like or hate Canon, but one theme is obvious: here we have a
company that has a very steady course and a very clearly defined goal
for the next ten years. Some cameras that were introduced over the last
thirty years might draw negative comments and did not become world
beaters. There main fault in retrospect has been to focus too long on
the amateur market and leaving Nikon alone in the professional pond. But
since the EOS body emerged around 1985, the company exhibits a singular
drive.

The new D1 packs the sensor of the 5D in a really robust body, the
film-loading 1V (end to that era?). The capture speed is very high and
there is that mysterious comment that the 1D has no memory buffer,
presumably wring directly to the flash card. The new 1Ds shares the same
body and brings the pixel count to 22 million on a 24x36mm area. The
most intriguing remark is Canons statement that from now on there will
be no more 1.3 crop sensors. The strategy then is clear: the amateur
market will be served by APS-C with 1.5/1.6 crop factor and a new range
of lenses. The professional high-end market will be exclusively served
by full-format sensors allowing all Canon lenses to operate at the true
computed focal length and viewing angle. Canon seems to be quite
confident that the problems with the 35mm format can be addressed and
overcome. There is now also an ISO 6400 value available. The new cameras
will be formidable instruments, the 1D attacking the professional market
for mobile photography and the 1Ds (with 22 M pixels) attacking the
medium format stationary (studio) photography. There is a risk here:
many professional reportage photographers do not want nor need that huge
amount of pixels. Is Nikon smarter in this respect and listening more
closely to the market?

Nikon continues to state that they will not embark on that route and
stay faithful to the APS format derivatives. For how long we may ask?

The 1D will retail for 4500 dollars and will be cheaper than the Leica
M8. This is not a clash of civilisations, but a minor clash of belief.
The M8 couples a mechanical film-loading body to a solid state sensor
and retains as much of the classical values as can be done within the
technological constraints.

The 1D couples a fully electronic film-loading body to a full 35mm
format solid state sensor and skips as much of the classical values as
can be accomplished within operational constraints. There is no doubt in
what direction the mainstream buyer will move. Canon is shaping the
market and the others are more or less responding to market trends as
they are perceived by the gurus.

Leica has been troubled over the last decade by a most erratic decision
making process by a series of CEO's and this decision making is
reflected in the current stable of products. One really hopes that there
will be now a steady developing strategy with a clearly defined future
vision for the product range to be developed.

The Canon strategy is very consistent and very profitable. Their choice
for the classical 35mm format for the high-end camera system is somewhat
surprising, given the fact that they are alone in this choice, but then
the market power of Canon is quite strong.

Now the competition must react.
Matt Clara - 13 Feb 2007 11:14 GMT
>> Did anyone think to save a copy of the page? I stupidly forgot to do
>> so before closing the browser (for an unrelated reason).
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>addition to the artistic aspects of using the 2:3 format that has to be
>mastered before you can compose interesting pictures.

Now there's some unadulterated bullshit if I ever saw it.  A good
photographer can take any camera and make interesting pictures--what about
all the pictures that were taken before 35mm?  Never heard such crap.
wiyum - 13 Feb 2007 12:21 GMT
> >It was and it is my view that the 35mm format and the matched optics to
> >create classical viewing angles and classical depth of field gradients, in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> photographer can take any camera and make interesting pictures--what about
> all the pictures that were taken before 35mm?  Never heard such crap.

While I agree with you entirely (obviously there's nothing inherently
superior to either the 36x24mm depth of field "gradients" or the 2:3
aspect ratio), I will say that there is plenty of value in not having
to learn the depth of field and angle of view characteristics of a new
format. If you can look at a scene with your eyes, and know what you'd
get, in terms of angle of view and depth of field with a given lens
because you've been shooting 35mm for over a decade, I'd say it is
certainly useful to be able to use that innate previsualization.
Especially if you like to use primes. Luddites in this regard might be
stubborn, but if years of experience and familiarity lie behind that
resistance to change, then I'd say that's a perfectly valid reason to
stick with what you know. Photographers so frequently have to "roll
with"changing conditions as it is. If you can keep something familiar,
I say do it.

Will
Matt Clara - 14 Feb 2007 23:00 GMT
>> >It was and it is my view that the 35mm format and the matched optics to
>> >create classical viewing angles and classical depth of field gradients,
[quoted text clipped - 23 lines]
>
> Will

Yup, good points--was that the point of the article, though?  If so, I defer
to it.  I didn't actually read it, was just responding to the paragraph
quoted.

--
www.mattclara.com
 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.