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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007

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50mm f/1.4 VR Nikkor!  I'll be damned they did it!

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Feb 2007 01:12 GMT
I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm Nikkor.

http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2007/50VR.htm

Rita
C J Campbell - 01 Feb 2007 01:32 GMT
> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm Nikkor.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2007/50VR.htm

Now, that is funny. Do you get any flare with that setup?

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Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Feb 2007 02:26 GMT
>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm
>> Nikkor.
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2007/50VR.htm
>
> Now, that is funny. Do you get any flare with that setup?

I've only taken several pictures and really didn't put it through some
serious testing yet.  If it works as well as it does on the 105 AF-D it will
be a winner.  There was no flare with the old setup.

Rita
Phil, Non-Squid - 01 Feb 2007 03:20 GMT
>>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm
>>> Nikkor.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> serious testing yet.  If it works as well as it does on the 105 AF-D
> it will be a winner.  There was no flare with the old setup.

I'm new to this doubling of lenses... have any links on the theory of
operation?  Or could you explain it?

Signature

Phil

Lionel - 01 Feb 2007 03:36 GMT
>>>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm
>>>> Nikkor.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>I'm new to this doubling of lenses... have any links on the theory of
>operation?  Or could you explain it?

It's actually a very old - & effective - method of getting really high
magnification for macro photography using cheap, standard lenses.
Traditionally, you use a male-to-male coupler to reverse mount a 50mm
prime on the front of a zoom, to essentially use the 50mm as a really
high quality magnifying glass. You can get an idea of how it works by
holding a 50mm lens between you & something small, with the front
element towards your face. The technique gets discussed quite
regularly in RP.35mm.
Floyd L. Davidson - 01 Feb 2007 06:24 GMT
>It's actually a very old - & effective - method of getting really high
>magnification for macro photography using cheap, standard lenses.
>Traditionally, you use a male-to-male coupler to reverse mount a 50mm
>prime on the front of a zoom, to essentially use the 50mm as a really

It doesn't work as well with zooms as compared to fixed focal
length lenses.  Diopters work best with fixed focal length
lenses because they have fewer compromises (to be magnified).

The reversed lense is an achromatic diopter.  The power is equal
to 1000/focal_length; which is why a 50mm is the same as a +20
diopter.

A diopter lense in front of a longer focal length produces more
dramatic effects than with a shorter focal length.  Hence
reversing a 50mm lense in front of a 100mm lense makes more
sense than putting a reversed 100mm in front of a 50mm lense.

The best quality regular diopter close up lenses are also
"achromatic" (they have multiple coated elements), and rather
than costing less than $20 each they are likely to be at or more
than 5 times that.  The difference in quality does show up in
the images taken too.  A well corrected 50mm lense is just a
very powerful diopter... with a bit of a useless focusing
mechanism included... :-)

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Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

C J Campbell - 01 Feb 2007 14:44 GMT
>> It's actually a very old - & effective - method of getting really high
>> magnification for macro photography using cheap, standard lenses.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> very powerful diopter... with a bit of a useless focusing
> mechanism included... :-)

As well as making the VR useless in the 105 and the aperture useless in the
50. Plus reducing your maximum aperture considerably. Why not just use a
Canon close-up lens?

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Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Paul Furman - 01 Feb 2007 20:33 GMT
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:24:09 -0800, Floyd L. Davidson wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> 50. Plus reducing your maximum aperture considerably. Why not just use a
> Canon close-up lens?

It gets closer. On the page I linked in my other reply, with a similar
setup using a 28mm f/2 lens, I wrote:

"The old AI-S lens works nicely because the aperture can be adjusted on
the front, experiments suggest best results with the 105mm lens wide
open and the 28mm at f/5.6. Exposures were between 1 second and 15
seconds with diffuse bright overcast window light. Distance from subject
to lens is around 2 inches. The magnification works out to more than 1:4
(1:9 with teleconverter)"

With the TC it really isn't sharp enough to be useable but check out the
full pixel crops & judge for yourself.
Dave - 02 Feb 2007 12:33 GMT
>> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 22:24:09 -0800, Floyd L. Davidson wrote
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 40 lines]
> With the TC it really isn't sharp enough to be useable but check out the
> full pixel crops & judge for yourself.
Paul,

I think you have your magnification ratios backwards. 1:9 is one ninth
life size and 9:1 is nine times life size.

Hope this helps,
Dave
Paul Furman - 03 Feb 2007 05:52 GMT
>> ...The magnification works out to
>> more than 1:4 (1:9 with teleconverter)"
>
> I think you have your magnification ratios backwards. 1:9 is one ninth
> life size and 9:1 is nine times life size.

Oops,
Thanks,
(I was unsure about that)

For the record, I propose changing the terminology to:

'9x magnification'

(for clarity)
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Feb 2007 23:36 GMT
> As well as making the VR useless in the 105 and the aperture useless
> in the
> 50. Plus reducing your maximum aperture considerably. Why not just
> use a Canon close-up lens?

The MP-E 65 is in the cards as soon as one comes by for the right price.

Rita
David Littlewood - 02 Feb 2007 22:45 GMT
>>It's actually a very old - & effective - method of getting really high
>>magnification for macro photography using cheap, standard lenses.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
>very powerful diopter... with a bit of a useless focusing
>mechanism included... :-)

"Dioptre" is a unit of measurement for the power of lenses. It is not a
name for a type of lens. Dioptres = 1/(focal length of lens in metres).

I imagine the error arose because people would refer to, for example, a
supplementary close-up lens having a power of +2 dioptres as a "+2
dioptre". Using it as the name for the lens is just flat wrong. You
would look just as daft referring to the 50mm lens as a "millimetre".

Oh, and BTW, it's lens, not "lense".

(Ducks behind parapet.)

David
Signature

David Littlewood

Floyd L. Davidson - 03 Feb 2007 12:15 GMT
>>>It's actually a very old - & effective - method of getting really high
>>>magnification for macro photography using cheap, standard lenses.
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
>(Ducks behind parapet.)

Yes you should duck.  They are commonly called a variety of
different names, most of which are in some way technically
deficient.  I chose that particular terminology so that the
OP could do Google or eBay searches and expect to find something.

Spelling flames, I might note, are simply lame.  They are twice
as lame when wrong, which yours is.

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Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

David Littlewood - 03 Feb 2007 12:44 GMT
>>"Dioptre" is a unit of measurement for the power of lenses. It
>>is not a name for a type of lens. Dioptres = 1/(focal length of
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>deficient.  I chose that particular terminology so that the
>OP could do Google or eBay searches and expect to find something.

None of the 4 dictionaries (3 UK and 1 US) I checked suggest "dioptre"
or "diopter" means a lens; they all say it refers to the unit of
measurement, as I said earlier. To be fair, Collins did also mention
that the word was also used to describe an ancient form of theodolite.
Hm, very relevant. No, sorry, you are just deluding yourself here.

>Spelling flames, I might note, are simply lame.  They are twice
>as lame when wrong, which yours is.

This is an equipment newsgroup. The correct name for an item of
equipment is, I would have thought, fairly fundamental to that purpose.
The lens spelling comment I made as an afterthought was meant as a
humorous reference to the recent (interminable) debate, which IMO was
lost hands down by the "lense" camp.

It is, of course, not uncommon to be ill-informed - there are vast areas
about which I am ill-informed, no shame in it. However, when someone
takes the trouble to correct an error, there are two ways to respond.
One can think "gosh, I am now better informed", and make use of the
information; alternatively, one can say "sod that, I'll carry on being
wrong". One of those simply shows up the recipient as being perverse.
Not difficult to see which one.

Oh, and BTW, if you consider someone correcting an error on a matter
which is relevant to the NG, in a (reasonably) polite manner, to be a
flame, then you really must have a thin skin. But I think we have seen
that before.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

Floyd L. Davidson - 03 Feb 2007 13:54 GMT
>>>(Ducks behind parapet.)
>>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>None of the 4 dictionaries (3 UK and 1 US) I checked suggest
>"dioptre" or "diopter" means a lens; they all say it refers to

I have not suggested that you would find it in a dictionary, nor
is that particularly significant.  Jargon or vernacular is often
not found in dictionaries.

If you go to google and do a web search to find information
about closeup lenses, what you will find is *many* websites
using it in the way that I did.  It may well not be technically
correct, but it is in common usage on the Internet.

Here are a few examples (but do the search yourself, as there
are many thousands more):

www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/macro_adapter.htm
www.macrophotography.org/modules. php?name=News&file=print&sid=12
www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/439515-REG/ Amphibico_0644207R0051_58_mm_Diopter_Macro.html
www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/ messageboard/f3message/index.php?show=400
www.camerasunderwater.co.uk/general/lenses/cu_lens.html
www.seafriends.org.nz/phgraph/macro.htm
www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4881/photolesson3.html
www.mplonsky.com/photo/article.htm
www.treknature.com/gallery/ Africa/South_Africa/photo21521.htm
www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/closeup-diopters.html
trevorm.gfxartist.com/artworks/119653

Whatever, your complaint lacked validity, and your followup
is worse.

>>Spelling flames, I might note, are simply lame.  They are twice
>>as lame when wrong, which yours is.
>>
>This is an equipment newsgroup. The correct name for an item of

Let me repeat that again:  your spelling flame is so lame it
smells like moldy underwear found wrapped around a leaky sewer
pipe.  Is that clear enough?

>equipment is, I would have thought, fairly fundamental to that
>purpose. The lens spelling comment I made as an afterthought was
>meant as a humorous reference to the recent (interminable)
>debate, which IMO was lost hands down by the "lense" camp.

Nobody wins or loses in such threads, except perhaps for folks
who pay much attention to how much noise various idiots are able
to generate.

Slice it any silly way you like, the two spellings are both
acceptable.

>It is, of course, not uncommon to be ill-informed - there are
>vast areas about which I am ill-informed, no shame in
>it. However, when someone takes the trouble to correct an error,

When someone repeatedly makes an error and thinks they are
correcting someone, it gets ridiculous.   Please cease being
ridiculous.

>Oh, and BTW, if you consider someone correcting an error on a

Spelling flames are silly.  Incorrect spelling flames are not
only the norm, but are worse than silly.

 lense
    n : a transparent optical device used to converge or diverge
        transmitted light and to form images [syn: lens, lens
        system]

That has been posted previously, I would have assumed that you'd
have availed yourself of the information at that time.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

David Littlewood - 03 Feb 2007 15:58 GMT
>>>>(Ducks behind parapet.)
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>
> www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/macro_adapter.htm

The usage on this site follows your erroneous usage, and the correct
one, leading him into some quite ridiculous tangles, such as a 2-element
diopter of 3.0 dioptres. I would have thought for most people this
absurdity alone would condemn your usage as farcical.

> www.macrophotography.org/modules. php?name=News&file=print&sid=12

Would not open.

> www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/439515-REG/ 
>Amphibico_0644207R0051_58_mm_Diopter_Macro.html

Again, uses the word in the two (incompatible) ways.

> www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/hardwares/ 
>messageboard/f3message/index.php?show=400

Could see no reference to diopters (or dioptres) on this page

> www.camerasunderwater.co.uk/general/lenses/cu_lens.html

This site - which is BTW quite excellent - uses the word in precisely
the way I said it should be used; nowhere could I see the slightest
support for your usage.

> www.seafriends.org.nz/phgraph/macro.htm

Apart from one slip in the header paragraph, he seems to follow the
usage I set out.

> www.geocities.com/SoHo/Workshop/4881/photolesson3.html
> www.mplonsky.com/photo/article.htm
> www.treknature.com/gallery/ Africa/South_Africa/photo21521.htm
> www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/closeup-diopters.html
> trevorm.gfxartist.com/artworks/119653

Some of these sites do indeed fall into the same error as you do. What
you find on various web sites just proves you are not alone in your
error; it does not make it less of an error.

>Whatever, your complaint lacked validity, and your followup
>is worse.

It was not a complaint, it was an attempt to correct an error, for the
benefit of others even if you do not wish to hear it.

>Let me repeat that again:  your spelling flame is so lame it
>smells like moldy underwear found wrapped around a leaky sewer
>pipe.  Is that clear enough?

Ah, now I see what is in your mind!

>Nobody wins or loses in such threads, except perhaps for folks
>who pay much attention to how much noise various idiots are able
>to generate.

Those who wish to learn, benefit. Those who do not, don't.

>Slice it any silly way you like, the two spellings are both
>acceptable.

Not on this side of the pond. "Lense" makes you look like a bumpkin.

You are clearly more interested in proving that you are a stubborn sort
of person who would die in a ditch to avoid admitting a mistake, rather
than one who wishes to get things right. ISTR this is a common reaction
for you.

I will avoid wasting any more of my time trying to correct your
ignorance next time.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

John McWilliams - 03 Feb 2007 16:33 GMT
> You are clearly more interested in proving that you are a stubborn sort
> of person who would die in a ditch to avoid admitting a mistake, rather
> than one who wishes to get things right. ISTR this is a common reaction
> for you.

Either that, or Floyd is just *never* WRONG! (Although I was happy to
see in this thread he eschewed use of emphasis).

Signature

john mcwilliams

Peter J E Brunning - 03 Feb 2007 17:45 GMT
>> You are clearly more interested in proving that you are a stubborn sort
>> of person who would die in a ditch to avoid admitting a mistake, rather
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Either that, or Floyd is just *never* WRONG! (Although I was happy to see
> in this thread he eschewed use of emphasis).

OTOH, http://wsu.edu/~brians/errors/lense.html says:
Although the variant spelling "lense" is listed in some dictionaries, the
standard spelling for those little disks that focus light is "lens."

And on this side of the pond, we don't use the spelling 'moldy'!
John McWilliams - 03 Feb 2007 18:37 GMT
>>> You are clearly more interested in proving that you are a stubborn sort
>>> of person who would die in a ditch to avoid admitting a mistake, rather
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> And on this side of the pond, we don't use the spelling 'moldy'!

So, why, then, is it not "foucus"? Or "foucous"?
 <s>

Signature

john mcwilliams

David Littlewood - 03 Feb 2007 19:12 GMT
>>  You are clearly more interested in proving that you are a stubborn
>>sort of person who would die in a ditch to avoid admitting a mistake,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>Either that, or Floyd is just *never* WRONG! (Although I was happy to
>see in this thread he eschewed use of emphasis).

Well, I may never know, unless someone takes up the issue. I just
plonked him, life is too short.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

Paul Furman - 01 Feb 2007 20:26 GMT
>>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm
>>> Nikkor.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> will
> be a winner.  There was no flare with the old setup.

I got nice results with an old AI 28mm f/2 this way, here's some tests:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/2006-11-19_105x2-28-macro>

Similar experiments with a zoom failed due to flare from too many
elements but on a prime lens this is not a big issue.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Feb 2007 23:37 GMT
> I got nice results with an old AI 28mm f/2 this way, here's some
> tests:
> http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Misc/photography/2006-11-19_105x2-28-macro

Yes, it seems to be working for you.

Rita
RichA - 02 Feb 2007 01:33 GMT
> >>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm
> >>> Nikkor.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> Similar experiments with a zoom failed due to flare from too many
> elements but on a prime lens this is not a big issue.

Just as a side issue, but when are camera makers going to adopt the
idea that fewer elements = better contrast?
I know....a dozen spherical elements (needed to do the job) are still
cheaper than 5 elements, one being aspheric.
At least ED glass is getting used more now and lens coatings have
improved in the last 20 years.
C J Campbell - 01 Feb 2007 14:40 GMT
>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm Nikkor.
>>
>> http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2007/50VR.htm
>
> Now, that is funny. Do you get any flare with that setup?

I guess the real question I had was why the 105mm VR? Couldn't a less
expensive lens have worked equally well?

Signature

Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor

Paul Furman - 01 Feb 2007 20:37 GMT
> On Wed, 31 Jan 2007 17:32:42 -0800, C J Campbell wrote
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I guess the real question I had was why the 105mm VR? Couldn't a less
> expensive lens have worked equally well?

The VR is useless even at 1:1 but it is important to use high quality
primes when coupling like this as you are pushing both lenses beyond
what they are designed for. Extension rings or a bellows could do better
simply because there is less glass but this setup will actually meter
(sort of).
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Feb 2007 23:37 GMT
> The VR is useless even at 1:1 but it is important to use high quality
> primes when coupling like this as you are pushing both lenses beyond
> what they are designed for. Extension rings or a bellows could do
> better simply because there is less glass but this setup will
> actually meter (sort of).

Did you find VR useless with the 105 focused to infinity when the other lens
was attached?

Rita
Paul Furman - 02 Feb 2007 02:50 GMT
>> The VR is useless even at 1:1 but it is important to use high quality
>> primes when coupling like this as you are pushing both lenses beyond
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Did you find VR useless with the 105 focused to infinity when the other
> lens was attached?

I don't really know. The manual says the VR is useless at 1:1 and I
haven't seen anything to disprove that. The VR is good for butterfly
portraits & 'closeups' but not at extreme macro. I don't have any
external flash so this setup is strictly a lab scene for me with the
camera sitting on a table & subjects propped up in front. My tripod was
useless at this scale with bright window light. I don't know, maybe it
could be hand held in midsummer daylight, I haven't tried.

I didn't try the 105 at infinity, only close to the extreme
magnification. What did amaze me though is that the focus ring was very
useable even at 1:9 magnification with the 2x TC. I had heard you need a
focusing rail but the 105 VR was easy to focus manually at these
preposterous magnifications. And that's the thing that surpised me about
the 105 used as a telephoto lens; how crappy the AF is; always hunting
for gnats in front of the lens when I want to AF on a bird 200 feet away:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/San-Francisco/neigh
borhoods/2006-10-31-sailing/full-set&PG=2&PIC=8
>
I think that one was the 105 with 2x TC, at least I had it out that day
and I recall it was sharper than the 70-200/2.8 at 200.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 01 Feb 2007 23:36 GMT
> I guess the real question I had was why the 105mm VR? Couldn't a less
> expensive lens have worked equally well?

Well, I'm just experimenting with a theory I have on VR.  I normally use the
105mm AF-D since it isn't as bulky.  If for some strange reason I find the
miracle cure for cancer and VR gives some earth shattering results at 1:1
and greater I will use this.  I'm hoping to find time to do some testing
this weekend.

Rita
Rebecca Ore - 02 Feb 2007 00:07 GMT
> VR gives some earth shattering results at 1:1
> and greater I will use this.  I'm hoping to find time to do some testing
> this weekend.

I honestly think the only thing VR at 1:1 helped me with is making the
viewfinder clearer by removing the side to side motion.  I'll be curious
to see what you find out.  Thought you'd returned the lens.  Guess not.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 02 Feb 2007 01:01 GMT
>> VR gives some earth shattering results at 1:1
>> and greater I will use this.  I'm hoping to find time to do some
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> curious to see what you find out.  Thought you'd returned the lens.
> Guess not.

Huh?  I gave it to my son, so I can "borrow" it anytime I like.  It's too
nice of a lens to sell.

Rita
HankB - 02 Feb 2007 19:12 GMT
> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm Nikkor.
>
> http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2007/50VR.htm

Questions from the ignorant. ;)

Does the tape on the base of the 50 serve any purpose other than
cosmetic?

Given the choice between a 50mm f/1.8 AF or 20mm f/2.8 or somewhat
ancient 55mm micro AI f/2.8 (used on the more traditional 105mm AF-D
micro ;) which would make the best choice. Are there situations where
one or the other reversed lens would perform better or would one be
better overall. I think it would be the fastest, but would like other
opinions.

thanks,
hank
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 02 Feb 2007 23:28 GMT
>> I can't believe my eyes!  It really is possible to have VR on a 50mm
>> Nikkor.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Does the tape on the base of the 50 serve any purpose other than
> cosmetic?

Yes, this is by far the most critical part of this setup.  Don't let the
gnarly look fool you.  This is a rear lens cap with the bottom removed and a
30-something mm UV filter hot-glued in for the sole purpose of protecting
the rear element.  Works really well.

> Given the choice between a 50mm f/1.8 AF or 20mm f/2.8 or somewhat
> ancient 55mm micro AI f/2.8 (used on the more traditional 105mm AF-D
> micro ;) which would make the best choice. Are there situations where
> one or the other reversed lens would perform better or would one be
> better overall. I think it would be the fastest, but would like other
> opinions.

Well, when I originally built this around my 105mm AF-D a good while back, I
had the 50/1.4 AI Nikkor that was expendable and a bunch of Canon FD lenses.
I've tried everything from an FD 50mm macro lens to a 20mm and they all
sucked beyond imagination.  At the end of the day the 50/1.4 Nikkor was the
lens of choice for this.  I don't see any reason why a 50/1.8 wouldn't work.

Rita
David Littlewood - 03 Feb 2007 00:13 GMT
>> Does the tape on the base of the 50 serve any purpose other than
>> cosmetic?
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>sucked beyond imagination.  At the end of the day the 50/1.4 Nikkor was the
>lens of choice for this.  I don't see any reason why a 50/1.8 wouldn't work.

Out of curiosity, what was wrong with the less-successful choices?
Looking at the FD 50/2.8, I would guess it might vignette somewhat.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 03 Feb 2007 12:53 GMT
>> Well, when I originally built this around my 105mm AF-D a good while
>> back, I had the 50/1.4 AI Nikkor that was expendable and a bunch of
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Out of curiosity, what was wrong with the less-successful choices?
> Looking at the FD 50/2.8, I would guess it might vignette somewhat.

Yes, you are correct about the 50/2.8.  My assumption when testing these
combinations is the wider I would go the greater the magnification I would
get.  I was wrong since the vinetting and DoF made these choices unusable.
Looking back at it now I believe that if I played with lens spacing more by
stacking more rings between the two lenses I would have had better success.
At that time I really didn't take into consideration lens spacing as a way
of optimization.  This is a theory and I might be wrong?  I kept it to a two
ring max combo.  Would adding more space between the two lenses fine-tune
the combo?

Rita
David Littlewood - 03 Feb 2007 15:29 GMT
>>> Well, when I originally built this around my 105mm AF-D a good while
>>> back, I had the 50/1.4 AI Nikkor that was expendable and a bunch of
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>ring max combo.  Would adding more space between the two lenses fine-tune
>the combo?

Well, it should be cheap enough to try, and experiment beats theory any
day. However, from the theory:

Spacing the supplementary lens further from the primary one will do two
things. First, it will almost certainly make any vignetting worse, or
possibly introduce it where there was none before. The effect would be
similar to stacking two filters instead of one on a wide-angle lens.

The second would be to slightly reduce the power of the close-up lens.
The usual formula for the combined power of two lenses

1/f = 1/fa + 1/fb

assumes that the two lenses have zero separation. For a separation d,
this becomes

1/f = 1/fa + 1/fb - d/(fa*fb)

IOW, f gets bigger for more separation, and thus magnification decreases
for a given image distance v (which will be limited by the mount of the
primary lens.

However, the second effect would probably be relatively small, at least
to the point where vignetting renders the whole thing worthless.

BTW, I assume you know that the supplementary lens should be used wide
open, and that aperture should be controlled by the main lens (the one
on the camera body) - but worth mentioning as other readers may not
know. Stopping down the secondary lens will guarantee bad vignetting.

David
Signature

David Littlewood

Rita Ä Berkowitz - 03 Feb 2007 20:53 GMT
> However, the second effect would probably be relatively small, at
> least to the point where vignetting renders the whole thing worthless.

Understand.  What you say does make sense.

> BTW, I assume you know that the supplementary lens should be used wide
> open, and that aperture should be controlled by the main lens (the one
> on the camera body) - but worth mentioning as other readers may not
> know. Stopping down the secondary lens will guarantee bad vignetting.

Yes, I found this out a long time ago when I first did this with my 105mm
AF-D.  I believe it was Paul Furman that said he had success doing the
opposite.  I don't see how it worked for him since it didn't for me.

Rita
Paul Furman - 04 Feb 2007 22:57 GMT
>> However, the second effect would probably be relatively small, at
>> least to the point where vignetting renders the whole thing worthless.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> 105mm AF-D.  I believe it was Paul Furman that said he had success doing
> the opposite.  I don't see how it worked for him since it didn't for me.

I tested this quite carefully and that was my conclusion. I've read
somewhere the recommendation but don't recall which so I had to
re-invent the wheel. Perhaps my short 28 makes this more feasible than a
50mm? I recall doing this before with a G lens, no aperture ring and
having to reach around the front with my finger & twiddle the
spring-loaded tab to stop down and I think that was being done on the
written advice. Or just tape that tab open & forget about DOF. It seems
this kind of setup makes it impossible to get a real small aperture due
to vignetting... another reason it's really just a kludge. But fun to
tinker with.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 05 Feb 2007 02:39 GMT
> I tested this quite carefully and that was my conclusion. I've read
> somewhere the recommendation but don't recall which so I had to
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> aperture due to vignetting... another reason it's really just a
> kludge. But fun to tinker with.

I find your results interesting, though I can't duplicate it.  I agree, this
is a fun to tinker project that has a few uses for me.

Rita
HankB - 05 Feb 2007 03:24 GMT
...

Thanks for the information and subsequent discussion.

-hank
 
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