Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007
Questions re DSLR screens
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Tony - 29 Jan 2007 06:09 GMT Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
Thanks, Tony
Mark² - 29 Jan 2007 06:49 GMT > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. > > Thanks, > Tony The mirror blocks the sensor during composition, so it is not possible to use the screen for that. Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot via an electronic viewfinder and screen. There is no substitute for the true TTL optical viewfinder, in my view.
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Tony - 29 Jan 2007 07:11 GMT >> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >electronic viewfinder and screen. There is no substitute for the true TTL >optical viewfinder, in my view. =============== I agree that it's not a good idea. It would be especially bad to snap a handheld shot in screen viewing position. I was just curious. Now I understand the reason why it can't be done.
Thanks, Tony
Pete D - 29 Jan 2007 09:57 GMT >>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >>> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Thanks, > Tony Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus, Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography. There is one of two others that also do but can't think of them off the top of my head, to many compromises for me.
Cheers.
Pete
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 12:38 GMT >Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus, >Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography. >There is one of two others that also do but can't think of them off the top >of my head, to many compromises for me. The list so far: Olympus E-330, Panasonic DMC-L1 and Leica Digilux 3.
All three are Four Thirds DSLRs using the same Panasonic 7.5 MP sensor, which is probably the best Four Thirds sensor yet made.
Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:50 GMT >>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus, >>Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > The list so far: Olympus E-330, Panasonic DMC-L1 and Leica Digilux 3. Hmmph. I didn't forget about the Leica and Panasonic, I just didn't think they were DSLRs. But, after referring to DPReview, they are, indeed.
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Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 13:22 GMT >>>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus, >>>Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography. [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >Hmmph. I didn't forget about the Leica and Panasonic, I just didn't think >they were DSLRs. But, after referring to DPReview, they are, indeed. None of the three looks like a DSLR. The Panasonic and Leica models look very like their immediate predecessors in those ranges, which were not DSLRs. So it is easy to assume that they are not DSLRs, which I think presents Panasonic and Leica with something of a marketing challenge.
Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:41 GMT >>>>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from >>>>Olympus, [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > which I think presents Panasonic and Leica with something of a > marketing challenge. That's what threw me. They look so much like the pseudo rangefinders that were their predecessors that I just viewed them as the same.
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Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:47 GMT >>>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >>>> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > > Pete As far as I know, those are the only two examples. And both of them have their limitations, as far as use goes.
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Tony - 29 Jan 2007 07:18 GMT >> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >electronic viewfinder and screen. There is no substitute for the true TTL >optical viewfinder, in my view. ==
Thanks Mark,
I was curious as to the reason it can't be done. I do not see a problem with composing in the screen, but actually taking a shot with camera unsupported in that extended position would not be great.
Tony
mark.mai@onet.co.uk - 29 Jan 2007 10:10 GMT On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number here)@cox..net> wrote:
> > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > electronic viewfinder and screen. There is no substitute for the true TTL > optical viewfinder, in my view. Fold out LCD screens offer a huge amount of versatility to get unusual angled shots (over the top of crowds, near to the ground) that in many cases would have to be guesswork. For 'normal' angled shots I agree the optical viewfinder is superior.
C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:16 GMT > On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number > here)@cox..net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > cases would have to be guesswork. For 'normal' angled shots I agree > the optical viewfinder is superior. While that might be true, I have never had a problem with holding a DSLR high over the top of my head or down near the ground. I am so familiar with with my camera that I know what the picture will look like without looking through the viewfinder at all.
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DoN. Nichols - 30 Jan 2007 02:26 GMT According to C J Campbell <christophercampbellnospam@hotmail.com>:
[ ... ]
> > Fold out LCD screens offer a huge amount of versatility to get unusual > > angled shots (over the top of crowds, near to the ground) that in many [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > my camera that I know what the picture will look like without looking through > the viewfinder at all. I suspect that you aren't using very long focus lenses for that technique. :-) I think that I could do OK up to perhaps 50mm on a 1.5 crop factor DSLR like my D70, and up to 75mm on a real full frame film camera, but beyond that, I would risk losing something off one edge or another.
I guess with a lot of practice, I could push it a bit longer, but I wouldn't trust it for a while.
Enjoy, DoN.
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Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:44 GMT > According to C J Campbell <christophercampbellnospam@hotmail.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > Enjoy, > DoN. In my case, you are right. But that's partly because a lens longer than 50mm may be too long for the shot, held overhead. I usually use a WA zoom, set wide, so as to maximize the chances for a good result.
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C J Campbell - 30 Jan 2007 07:38 GMT >> On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number >> here)@cox..net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > While that might be true, I have never had a problem with holding a DSLR high
> over the top of my head or down near the ground. I am so familiar with with > my camera that I know what the picture will look like without looking through
> the viewfinder at all. Well, this is true, but it seems to me that my arms aren't long enough to make a long lens very useful. :-)
Seriously, sometimes in order to do something right you just need to bring a ladder.
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Mark² - 30 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT >>> On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number >>> here)@cox..net> wrote: [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Well, this is true, but it seems to me that my arms aren't long > enough to make a long lens very useful. :-) Hmmm... Are you an Oompah-Loompah??
:)
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Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 11:09 GMT > Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot > via an electronic viewfinder and screen Having recently moved to a DSLR from an EVF equipped Canon S1 I really miss the compositional advantage an EVF gives you (well, me anyway!)
Sure, the resolution on the S1 is lousy, but with a decent resolution and responsiveness I would pick EVF every time. You're looking at the picture you're going to take, not the picture you think you're going to take. It really is very seductive IMO.
If the EVF on the new Olympus super zoom is good enough I may well sell my K100D to fund it (and I do really like my 100D).
Andrew McP
Mark² - 29 Jan 2007 11:26 GMT >> Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot >> via an electronic viewfinder and screen [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Andrew McP That's what you grew accustomed to, so that's understandable. If you shot sports, wildlife, or other subjects where split-second timing can be everything, you'd appreciate the fact that there is nothing more "live" than optical TTL viewfinders. With any EVF, there is some delay, and this means reacting is artificially slowed.
But if you're happy with it... then of course, do what suits you.
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Toni Nikkanen - 29 Jan 2007 11:36 GMT > That's what you grew accustomed to, so that's understandable. > If you shot sports, wildlife, or other subjects where split-second timing > can be everything, you'd appreciate the fact that there is nothing more > "live" than optical TTL viewfinders. With any EVF, there is some delay, and > this means reacting is artificially slowed. I think the EVF's of today are not good enough, but I can imagine a super-EVF that would be even better than a good TTL viewfinder. When the resolution and response times are so good one can't distinguish it from the real thing.
Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:56 GMT >> That's what you grew accustomed to, so that's understandable. >> If you shot sports, wildlife, or other subjects where split-second timing [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > the resolution and response times are so good one can't distinguish > it from the real thing. I'd never say that would never happen, but current technology is too limited in that regard. And we have to deal with current reality, we can't buy a camera with what we'd like to see, we have to buy a camera with what we can get.
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Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:54 GMT >> Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot >> via an electronic viewfinder and screen [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Andrew McP In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think you're going to take?" With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with the others, the viewfinder coverage is between 95% and 97% of the total image. It's not just the resolution that makes an EVF a deal breaker in my eyes (no pun intended) its the lag time. Even a lag measured in milliseconds is too much, compared to a viewfinder that reflects real time reality.
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Toni Nikkanen - 29 Jan 2007 13:02 GMT > In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think > you're going to take?" With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with > the others, the viewfinder coverage is between 95% and 97% of the total > image. I am not the OP but: EVF could also show you an impression of how the picture is going to be exposed, not just how it's going to be framed and focused. Also, it would simplify design by making it possible to remove the mirror and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could be attached closer to the sensor.
I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too little resolution, but that could change, given enough effort.
C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:21 GMT >> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think >> you're going to take?" With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I am not the OP but: EVF could also show you an impression of how the picture > is going to be exposed, not just how it's going to be framed and focused. Hah! I have never seen an EVF that came anywhere close to showing me how the picture was going to be exposed. They are all too bright.
> Also, it would simplify design by making it possible to remove the mirror > and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could be > attached closer to the sensor. > > I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too little > resolution, but that could change, given enough effort. True. Someday we will get an EVF that will just blow our socks off. But not yet. Perhaps even as we speak, some bright young engineer is working on the camera that will finally free us from the mirror.
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John McWilliams - 30 Jan 2007 01:59 GMT > True. Someday we will get an EVF that will just blow our socks off. But not > yet. Perhaps even as we speak, some bright young engineer is working on the > camera that will finally free us from the mirror. I've already outlined mine: A blue tooth screen ca. 5x7 that we can attach to an arm, bag, table, or hanging off a mono or tripod on a flexible mount so we can turn it any old way. Auto screen brightness so it's not too bright at night nor too dim at noon. Still will need to look at histograms occasionally, tho.
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DoN. Nichols - 30 Jan 2007 02:41 GMT According to Toni Nikkanen <toni@morgoth.tuug.fi>:
> > In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think > > you're going to take?" With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could be > attached closer to the sensor. So -- what *you* want is not a DSLR, but an interchangeable lens rangefinder style camera with a big enough sensor to give high resolution and high ISO with reasonably low noise.
And you still have to live with the time to close the shutter, flush the stale viewfinding image out of the display, and then open and close the shutter to take the actual image before reading it off the sensor.
And what are you going to do in situations where a twenty second exposure time is called for -- or even a half second exposure time. I don't think that you'll get a good enough image for composition with the display under those circumstances.
> I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too little > resolution, but that could change, given enough effort. Every time the display increases resolution (at the cost of higher power and longer refresh time), the resolution of the sensor is likely to increase at the same time (also slowing the transfer time to the display), so you will never really catch up. And the focus is going to be on improving the resolution at the sensor, not at the display.
The only way to speed up the transfer from the sensor (for a given resolution) is to increase the number of channels through which the transfer takes place from the sensor to assemble the image in the buffer RAM. And then, the image in the buffer needs to be processed to fit the display. You would then need multiple channels into the display to speed up *that* transfer.
While there are times when a display is convenient for awkward taking angles, I *really* prefer the eye-level view through the pentaprism for all other circumstances.
Enjoy, DoN.
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Toni Nikkanen - 30 Jan 2007 07:22 GMT > So -- what *you* want is not a DSLR, but an interchangeable lens > rangefinder style camera with a big enough sensor to give high > resolution and high ISO with reasonably low noise. I want an interchangeable lens camera with a TTL eye-level viewfinder. It doesn't have to be mirror-based; it could be EVF if the implementation is good enough. It's not going to be for at least five years, but that's a long time in this industry and anything can happen in five years. I am not waiting to buy one now because it's certainly a too long wait, but rather envisioning or hoping what the Santa Claus of the future might bring me.
> And you still have to live with the time to close the shutter, > flush the stale viewfinding image out of the display, and then open and > close the shutter to take the actual image before reading it off the > sensor. Mere technicalities; this is all electronics and fixable given sufficiently advanced technology, though maybe not for the shutter part of the problem..
> And what are you going to do in situations where a twenty second > exposure time is called for -- or even a half second exposure time. I > don't think that you'll get a good enough image for composition with the > display under those circumstances. On the contrary, it could even work as an light amplifier of sorts, given near-magical breakthrough x that's gonna be invented in five years ;)
> Every time the display increases resolution (at the cost of > higher power and longer refresh time), the resolution of the sensor is > likely to increase at the same time (also slowing the transfer time to > the display), so you will never really catch up. And the focus is going > to be on improving the resolution at the sensor, not at the display. As I understand it, even with current technology you don't need to transfer the whole sensor data for live preview. Anyway I do understand the "live preview" feature has a negative impact on sensor fill factor. However, as I already said, I have great faith in the electronics industry :)
Given the current pixel counts (some 230k) you could multiply that by 8, up the FPS to 30, gets the amount of data to transfer to 158 megabytes per second. That's a lot, but we've used to seeing chips twice as fast appearing every 18 months or so.
As an example, remember how some years ago some people would say, given the DSLR's of the time, that you could never achieve good continuous shooting performance and small shutter lag with digital, at least nothing like the 9fps that the best motorized 35mm SLR's could. Well, we have the Nikon D2H and Canon EOS 1DsMkII now. A huge step up in speed in just a few years. And I don't think they have stopped improving their products just yet.
> While there are times when a display is convenient for awkward > taking angles, I *really* prefer the eye-level view through the > pentaprism for all other circumstances. I prefer eye-level view also. That's why I sent this letter to the Santa Claus of the future. I want the Super-EVF, eventually.
Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:48 GMT >> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you >> think [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > picture > is going to be exposed, not just how it's going to be framed and focused. It could, and should, but it doesn't show accurate exposure, and the resolution in some models is too low to be an accurate reflection of focus.
> Also, it would simplify design by making it possible to remove the mirror > and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could > be > attached closer to the sensor. Again, it could, but it doesn't. The Oly has a live LCD and a mirror, which needs room to swing, sideways, in this case.
> I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too > little > resolution, but that could change, given enough effort. But the discussion is of what is, not what should be or could be.
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Toni Nikkanen - 30 Jan 2007 07:24 GMT > > I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too > > little > > resolution, but that could change, given enough effort. > But the discussion is of what is, not what should be or could be. I refuse to give up my right to dream up new, better products just because some people have a fixation on the present ;)
Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 13:43 GMT > In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you > think you're going to take?" On my S1 when I half press for exposure the picture I see on screen is pretty much *exactly* what is going to be saved, no guesswork. That's very useful, especially when shooting into the sun or working in low light.
I also enjoy being able to leave the camera at my eye, press a button to quickly check the image I just took (or use the auto review setting), then move to the next picture with exposure corrections if necessary. No taking the camera away, squinting at the LCD in bright conditions, and raising the camera again.
EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future.
Andrew McP
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 14:37 GMT >> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you >> think you're going to take?" [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > >EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future. I use a Sony DSC-R1 for real estate photography. It has an electronic viewfinder with 235,200 pixels. This electronic viewfinder is a substantial step up from the S1's, but it is truly dreadful to use.
The reason I bought the R1 was the superlative Carl Zeiss lens, which produces remarkable results, with outstanding sharpness and very low distortion. The only viewfinder I use is the LCD screen, which can be tilted, rotated and twisted and acts much like a waist-level viewfinder on a medium format film SLR.
It is a wonderful way to compose images. For the work I do with this camera, I don't miss an SLR's TTL viewfinder and I certainly don't need an electronic viewfinder. I also have two Canon EOS 5D DSLRs which I use for most of my other work, but the R1 is the master of this particular job.
For me, the future of non-SLR digital cameras lies in improving LCDs so they can be used in the same way as that on the R1. An R2 model with a 3 inch LCD would be a wonderful camera.
But I gather Sony is really struggling to sell Alpha DSLRs, and having made a large investment in the Alpha project there is probably little interest in developing a successor to the R1.
J. Clarke - 29 Jan 2007 15:37 GMT >>> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you >>> think you're going to take?" [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >made a large investment in the Alpha project there is probably little >interest in developing a successor to the R1. What _somebody_ should try IMO is a body with an LCD similar to the R1's that will take the lenses from an SLR system. I'd pay a reasonable amount for a body like that from Canon that took my existing EOS lenses. There are times when the SLR's finder actually is limiting--and yes, lurkers, I know about right angle attachments and the like.
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 16:37 GMT >What _somebody_ should try IMO is a body with an LCD similar to the >R1's that will take the lenses from an SLR system. I'd pay a >reasonable amount for a body like that from Canon that took my >existing EOS lenses. There are times when the SLR's finder actually >is limiting--and yes, lurkers, I know about right angle attachments >and the like. That's a great idea, but given Sony's problems with very slow sales of the Alpha DSLR, it probably isn't going to happen very soon.
To be honest, another of my reasons for buying the R1 was its fixed lens. I do a lot of work on and adjacent to construction sites, and dust is a significant problem. Since I started using the R1 for this work, which I do under contract, my sensor cleaning problems have disappeared completely.
It is also worth pointing out that the excellence of the Carl Zeiss lens on the R1 is partly doen to the absence of a reflex mirror. Apparently, the rear element gets very close to the sensor, which would mean that this lens design could never be made in an interchangeable version. That's a pity, because it is optically superior to the Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L, one of which I also own.
Alan Browne - 30 Jan 2007 00:49 GMT >>In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you >>think you're going to take?" [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > taking the camera away, squinting at the LCD in bright conditions, and > raising the camera again.
> EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future. No. The optical quality is simply not there. Not sure how DOF preview would work (I suppose it could be implemented). More battery drain. Who needs to squint at a display. Simply shoot and ignore the urge to chimp ... well the odd sample to make sure you're not totally out to lunch.
There are certainly advantages with a twist/tilt screen so that you can shoot uncomfortable angles.
Other than that ... no thanks.
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Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:53 GMT >> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you >> think you're going to take?" > > On my S1 when I half press for exposure the picture I see on screen is > pretty much *exactly* what is going to be saved, no guesswork. "Pretty much" and "exactly" are mutually exclusive.
That's
> very useful, especially when shooting into the sun or working in low > light. Working with an optical VF is just as useful, and you do know what you shot, you just saw it.
> I also enjoy being able to leave the camera at my eye, press a button to > quickly check the image I just took (or use the auto review setting), > then move to the next picture with exposure corrections if necessary. No > taking the camera away, squinting at the LCD in bright conditions, and > raising the camera again. The only problem with that comes when you are shooting moving objects, the dreadful (to possibly overstate the case) response time can be literally dizzying.
> EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future. > > Andrew McP They most probably are the future, since they alleviate a whole bunch of lens design problems, but they are very far from perfect.
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Andrew MacPherson - 30 Jan 2007 06:36 GMT > "Pretty much" and "exactly" are mutually exclusive. Ok, ok, but you know what I mean. :-)
Overall I'm certainly not saying EVFs in their current state are ideal. However I am saying that having used an EVF'd camera extensively and now a DSLR, I know what I want and prefer in my ideal camera. Optical viewfinders are great for framing, but for telling me what I'm actually about to capture they fall short of ideal (whether that's depth of field issues, white balance, or poor exposure).
Obviously that's what the camera's electronics and my experience are for. But I think EVFs are probably part of the eventual transition away from the SLR format which we retain for historical as well as practical reasons. I may, as ever, be wrong.
Andrew McP
Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 13:48 GMT > It's not just the resolution that makes an EVF a deal breaker in my > eyes (no pun intended) its the lag time. Resolution is vital. The 115k on my S1 is nowhere near enough pixels to check focus accurately, especially when relatively small depth of field is involved. I've been caught out by that lots of times, and the small onboard LCD makes checking unreliable. The S2/3 didn't solve this, but cameras like the FZ50 or S9600 do much better. The new Olympus super zoom may be too small -- like the S3 -- to have a decent sized LCD, sadly.
You're right though in saying that lag is another very important factor. The Olympus has five frame predictive buffering though, which should essentially eliminate shutter lag (while filling up the XD card very quickly!)
Andrew McP
David Dyer-Bennet - 30 Jan 2007 00:57 GMT > It's not just the resolution that makes an EVF a deal breaker in my eyes (no > pun intended) its the lag time. Even a lag measured in milliseconds is too > much, compared to a viewfinder that reflects real time reality. That's a design issue that needs to be solved of course. If they do that it's a pain.
I will point out that a Leica M3 has something like a 70ms shutter lag -- you just don't get down to zero!
One of these days the camera will be able to capture an image 100 milliseconds *before* you push the button, the same way audio recorders now can start recording a couple of seconds *before* you pushed the record button (they have a buffer that length and constantly stream the sound through it; when you push the button they start recording with what's in the buffer).
(Yeah, I know that won't happen on cameras any time soon; far too high a data bandwidth is needed, and the chips can't support it. Cool idea to consider though.)
POHB - 30 Jan 2007 14:58 GMT > One of these days the camera will be able to capture an image 100 > milliseconds *before* you push the button, the same way audio recorders [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > data bandwidth is needed, and the chips can't support it. Cool idea to > consider though.) The BBC used a gadget like that for filming Planet Earth and got some awesome shots of sharks catching seals. A super hi-speed hi-res digital video camera adapted from recording crash tests. Hit the button and it grabs a few seconds of slow-mo from before and after. After each shot they thought they might want to keep the camera was unusable for 15 minutes while the footage was downloaded.
Bill Funk - 30 Jan 2007 18:52 GMT >One of these days the camera will be able to capture an image 100 >milliseconds *before* you push the button, the same way audio recorders >now can start recording a couple of seconds *before* you pushed the >record button (they have a buffer that length and constantly stream the >sound through it; when you push the button they start recording with >what's in the buffer). Here's what you need: PROCOG! http://earth.prohosting.com/bfunk/
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Randall Ainsworth - 29 Jan 2007 13:09 GMT In article <memo.20070129110938.1920B@address_disguised.address_disguised>, Andrew MacPherson <andrew.mcp@DELETETHISdsl.pipex.com> wrote:
> Having recently moved to a DSLR from an EVF equipped Canon S1 I really > miss the compositional advantage an EVF gives you (well, me anyway!) [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > If the EVF on the new Olympus super zoom is good enough I may well sell > my K100D to fund it (and I do really like my 100D). So you prefer looking at a little TV screen as opposed to the optical view through the taking lens? What a moron!
Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 13:47 GMT > What a moron! Ah, I love the smell of reasoned debate in the morning. It's always nice to see an open mind in action.
Andrew McP
Skip - 30 Jan 2007 04:27 GMT >> What a moron! > > Ah, I love the smell of reasoned debate in the morning. It's always nice > to see an open mind in action. > > Andrew McP Yeah, we just generally ignore him. Even those of us who are on the same side of a discussion.
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Bill Funk - 29 Jan 2007 19:03 GMT >In article ><memo.20070129110938.1920B@address_disguised.address_disguised>, Andrew [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >So you prefer looking at a little TV screen as opposed to the optical >view through the taking lens? What a moron! Ah, yes; the call of the closed mind.
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C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:24 GMT >> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > electronic viewfinder and screen. There is no substitute for the true TTL > optical viewfinder, in my view. It is not necessarily true that the mirror would block it, though. Three cameras (already mentioned), have been built that solve that problem. One of the functions of the mirror in a DSLR is to move up and block any light coming into the camera from the viewfinder. The old Rolleiflex got around that problem by having the mirror drop down instead of flipping up, but it required two shutters: one to expose the film and one to close the viewfinder. The shutters were coupled so that they fired at the same time. I could see an approach like that being used for an EVF in a DSLR.
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J. Clarke - 29 Jan 2007 19:29 GMT >>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >>> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >It is not necessarily true that the mirror would block it, though. Three >cameras (already mentioned), have been built that solve that problem. Actually, _one_ has, that is being sold under three different labels (the Panasonic and the Leica both use the Olympus mechanism), and it does it by having a second sensor that works off the reflected image. What normally appears on the LCD isn't any closer to what the main sensor sees than is what you see through the optical finder. They do have a mode in which the main sensor is used but this involves locking the mirror out of the way and disables both the optical finder and the meter and introduces a 1 second delay between pressing the release and the beginning of the exposure.
>One of >the functions of the mirror in a DSLR is to move up and block any light [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >viewfinder. The shutters were coupled so that they fired at the same time. I >could see an approach like that being used for an EVF in a DSLR. Randall Ainsworth - 29 Jan 2007 13:08 GMT > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. Oh jeez...it's tard time again.
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 13:24 GMT >> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. > >Oh jeez...it's tard time again ... Yeah, whenenever you post here.
Bill Funk - 29 Jan 2007 19:05 GMT >> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. > >Oh jeez...it's tard time again. Oh, jeez... it's time for those who are too busy to help to come out. It's nice to know that you continue to think anyone who knows less than you is fair game for ridicule.
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Mark² - 29 Jan 2007 23:47 GMT >> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >> reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. > > Oh jeez...it's tard time again. Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an answer to a question like these. We all did. -Just not any more.
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Randall Ainsworth - 30 Jan 2007 02:59 GMT > Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an answer to a > question like these. > We all did. -Just not any more. When I started, I read books and magazines and scrounged for information any place I could. And I knew that cameras called SLRs had a mirror that flopped up.
Mark² - 30 Jan 2007 04:08 GMT >> Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an >> answer to a question like these. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > information any place I could. And I knew that cameras called SLRs had > a mirror that flopped up. You did...and so did I. But some get at these answers by talking to other people who know more than they do. I don't see anything wrong with that.
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C J Campbell - 30 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT >> Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an answer to a >> question like these. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > information any place I could. And I knew that cameras called SLRs had > a mirror that flopped up. Is there any question that you would consider worthy of being asked on this news group?
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Dr. Joel M. Hoffman - 29 Jan 2007 13:16 GMT >Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for >reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. At least on all the cameras I've used, the screen is only for reviewing.
-Joel
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C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:12 GMT > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. > > Thanks, > Tony It cannot be used for composing on nearly all the DSLRs. The mirror gets in the way. Using an LCD for composition adds size, weight and complexity to an already very complex camera system. Most DSLR users don't like the idea of composing with the electronic screens -- for good reason.
1) The screens introduce a delay between composition shooting. If you wave your hand in front of a typical point and shoot camera which uses the LCD for composition, you will see that there is a significant delay between the time your hand moves and when it shows up on the screen. That delay is the difference between taking a picture of a bird or a bare twig.
2) The screens are fuzzy and often difficult to see in bright daylight. They are useless for focusing or checking depth of field. They show too bright of a picture in dim conditions.
3) The screens are a serious drain on the battery, which already has quite a bit to do in the modern DSLR, what with operating the shutter, focusing mechanism in the lens, image stabilization, metering, viewfinder lighting, LCD operation, etc. Indeed, battery usage is such a problem that many pro photographers turn the LCD display off even for review between shots. Instead, they take a short break and turn the screen on for a quick review for anything that needs to be re-shot.
4) LCD screens make holding the camera steady for hand-held photography more difficult. You have to hold the camera out away from your body in order to see the screen, which is much less stable and much more tiring, especially if you are doing a lot of shooting. Mount a heavy lens and you would really have a problem. The whole ergonomic design of an SLR camera is geared towards holding the camera up to your eye. You hold the camera with one hand and the lens with the other, using the lens hand to focus and zoom. Consumer point and shoots have electric zoom motors, which are very slow. The whole point of the DSLR is speed. We don't want to wait while an electric motor racks the lens in and out. We want to twist that zoom ring and have our composition right now, if not fifteen seconds ago. We DSLR users are not a patient lot. Holding a camera with a big zoom out far enough to see the LCD while zooming the lens, well, that just isn't going to work. We only have two hands, you know.
You understand, DSLR users are not likely to be a bunch of hidebound traditionalists who like doing things the old way. We use DSLRs, after all. No, most of us would use an LCD screen to compose pictures if somehow the drawbacks could be addressed.
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HankB - 29 Jan 2007 21:37 GMT On Jan 29, 12:12 pm, C J Campbell <christophercampbellnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> 1) The screens introduce a delay between composition shooting. If you wave > your hand in front of a typical point and shoot camera which uses the LCD for > composition, you will see that there is a significant delay between the time > your hand moves and when it shows up on the screen. That delay is the > difference between taking a picture of a bird or a bare twig. I believe there is yet an additional delay. If the same sensor is used for the EVF as for capturing the image, it has to be turned off and discharged (or something like that ;) before the exposure can be made. That happens after the shutter is pressed and after the image is focused, so it just adds to the delay. I also suspect that sensors are optimized for motion capture or still capture and likely can't be optimized for both.
For camers that use a separate sensor this would not be a problem.
-hank
Frank - 29 Jan 2007 22:15 GMT > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. > > Thanks, > Tony Skip - 01 Feb 2007 20:46 GMT Which Sony would that be? Because the A100 or whatever it is, doesn't. It would be nice to add a little text for clarification, next time you double post.
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David Dyer-Bennet - 30 Jan 2007 00:53 GMT > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. Generally speaking DSLRs (and the D-80) don't do live preview. The reasons include:
1) Mechanical shutter
2) Mirror in the light path
3) Video readout circuitry missing from the sensor chip (and part of why the pixels are so much better form DSLRs is because of this, they can use the extra space for other things).
This is a shame, because composing on the LCD is a huge improvement in usability for many purposes, and can even contribute to longer hand-held exposures without camera shake.
The ability to see the screen from an angle (greatly enhanced if the screen tilts and swivels) makes low and high angle shots much easier to take.
The boost to the light levels of the screen makes it easier to see what's going on in very dim light situations.
It's of course pretty much hopeless for manual focusing. And the design would have to be such that pushing the shutter release captured the actual moment being previewed on the screen at the time; if there were temporal skew that would be hideous.
Oh, the hand-held exposure thing? Put the strap around your neck, adjust the length so that you can pull your elbows into your stomach, grasp the sides of the camera, and push it out until the strap is tight against your neck. In my experience (on cameras that *do* support LCD preview) I can hand-hold this way at lower shutter speeds than trying to pull the camera up to my head. The camera doesn't fit my head in any position, so it's hard to hold really steady (and I've been doing handheld available light work since 1969).
Yes, lots of people just wave the camera out in front of them at arm's length, and that's generally pretty unstable, but what matters isn't what bad things other photographers may do; what matters is what pictures *you* can take with the camera and techniques.
DoN. Nichols - 30 Jan 2007 01:56 GMT According to Tony <Tony001@rr.net.net>:
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for > reviewing after the picture is taken? I'm looking at a Nikon D-80. Only for reviewing -- and for navigating the configuration menus. and looking at the histogram for exposure evaluation after the shot is taken.
The reason is that the sensor is covered by both the shutter and the mirror, so it *can't* see the image to compose with until the moment of exposure.
The benefits from this are that you don't have to close the shutter, flush the sensor, and re-acquire to take a shot, so the delay from shutter button press to capture of the image is a *lot* shorter than the typical P&S digital camera. Probably not a problem in a posed shot, but for capturing images as things happen, it is a major benefit.
And -- because the sensor is not running full time (as it is in a P&S) -- the sensor is cooler and thus has less signal noise in the image.
And I find myself wondering (having used both types of digital camera) exactly *why* you would want to compose with the rigidly mounted display on a DSLR? Yes, the hinged displays on high-level P&S cameras can be nice for taking shots from otherwise awkward angles, but they are usually not that convenient compared to the eye-level finder in the SLRs -- digital and film.
Certainly, holding the camera to your face as you compose and take reduces shake in the image compared to holding the camera out at arm's length to view the display for composition.
Enjoy, DoN.
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