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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007

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Questions re DSLR screens

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Tony - 29 Jan 2007 06:09 GMT
Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.

Thanks,
Tony
Mark² - 29 Jan 2007 06:49 GMT
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
>
> Thanks,
> Tony

The mirror blocks the sensor during composition, so it is not possible to
use the screen for that.
Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot via an
electronic viewfinder and screen.  There is no substitute for the true TTL
optical viewfinder, in my view.

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Tony - 29 Jan 2007 07:11 GMT
>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>electronic viewfinder and screen.  There is no substitute for the true TTL
>optical viewfinder, in my view.
===============
I agree that it's not a good idea. It would be especially bad to snap
a handheld shot in screen viewing position.  I was just curious.  Now
I understand the reason why it can't be done.

Thanks,
Tony
Pete D - 29 Jan 2007 09:57 GMT
>>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> Thanks,
> Tony

Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus,
Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography.
There is one of two others that also do but can't think of them off the top
of my head, to many compromises for me.

Cheers.

Pete
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 12:38 GMT
>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus,
>Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography.
>There is one of two others that also do but can't think of them off the top
>of my head, to many compromises for me.

The list so far: Olympus E-330, Panasonic DMC-L1 and Leica Digilux 3.

All three are Four Thirds DSLRs using the same Panasonic 7.5 MP
sensor, which is probably the best Four Thirds sensor yet made.
Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:50 GMT
>>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus,
>>Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> The list so far: Olympus E-330, Panasonic DMC-L1 and Leica Digilux 3.

Hmmph.  I didn't forget about the Leica and Panasonic, I just didn't think
they were DSLRs.  But, after referring to DPReview, they are, indeed.

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Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 13:22 GMT
>>>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from Olympus,
>>>Canon also made a version of the 20D called the 20Da for astrophotography.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>Hmmph.  I didn't forget about the Leica and Panasonic, I just didn't think
>they were DSLRs.  But, after referring to DPReview, they are, indeed.

None of the three looks like a DSLR.  The Panasonic and Leica models
look very like their immediate predecessors in those ranges, which
were not DSLRs.  So it is easy to assume that they are not DSLRs,
which I think presents Panasonic and Leica with something of a
marketing challenge.
Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:41 GMT
>>>>Actually it can and has been done, have a look at the E-330 from
>>>>Olympus,
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> which I think presents Panasonic and Leica with something of a
> marketing challenge.

That's what threw me.  They look so much like the pseudo rangefinders that
were their predecessors that I just viewed them as the same.

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Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:47 GMT
>>>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>>>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>
> Pete

As far as I know, those are the only two examples.  And both of them have
their limitations, as far as use goes.

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Tony - 29 Jan 2007 07:18 GMT
>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>electronic viewfinder and screen.  There is no substitute for the true TTL
>optical viewfinder, in my view.

==

Thanks Mark,

I was curious as to the reason it can't be done.  I do not see a
problem with composing in the screen, but actually taking a shot with
camera unsupported in that extended position would not be great.

Tony
mark.mai@onet.co.uk - 29 Jan 2007 10:10 GMT
On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number
here)@cox..net> wrote:
> > Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> > reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> electronic viewfinder and screen.  There is no substitute for the true TTL
> optical viewfinder, in my view.

Fold out LCD screens offer a huge amount of versatility to get unusual
angled shots (over the top of crowds, near to the ground) that in many
cases would have to be guesswork. For 'normal' angled shots I agree
the optical viewfinder is superior.
C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:16 GMT
> On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number
> here)@cox..net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> cases would have to be guesswork. For 'normal' angled shots I agree
> the optical viewfinder is superior.

While that might be true, I have never had a problem with holding a DSLR high
over the top of my head or down near the ground. I am so familiar with with
my camera that I know what the picture will look like without looking through
the viewfinder at all.

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DoN. Nichols - 30 Jan 2007 02:26 GMT
According to C J Campbell  <christophercampbellnospam@hotmail.com>:

    [ ... ]

> > Fold out LCD screens offer a huge amount of versatility to get unusual
> > angled shots (over the top of crowds, near to the ground) that in many
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> my camera that I know what the picture will look like without looking through
> the viewfinder at all.

    I suspect that you aren't using very long focus lenses for that
technique. :-) I think that I could do OK up to perhaps 50mm on a 1.5
crop factor DSLR like my D70, and up to 75mm on a real full frame film
camera, but beyond that, I would risk losing something off one edge or
another.

    I guess with a lot of practice, I could push it a bit longer,
but I wouldn't trust it for a while.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:44 GMT
> According to C J Campbell  <christophercampbellnospam@hotmail.com>:
>
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> Enjoy,
> DoN.

In my case, you are right.  But that's partly because a lens longer than
50mm may be too long for the shot, held overhead.  I usually use a WA zoom,
set wide, so as to maximize the chances for a good result.

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C J Campbell - 30 Jan 2007 07:38 GMT
>> On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number
>> here)@cox..net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> While that might be true, I have never had a problem with holding a DSLR high

> over the top of my head or down near the ground. I am so familiar with with
> my camera that I know what the picture will look like without looking through

> the viewfinder at all.

Well, this is true, but it seems to me that my arms aren't long enough to
make a long lens very useful. :-)

Seriously, sometimes in order to do something right you just need to bring a
ladder.

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Mark² - 30 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT
>>> On Jan 29, 6:49 am, "Mark²" <mjmorgan(lowest even number
>>> here)@cox..net> wrote:
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Well, this is true, but it seems to me that my arms aren't long
> enough to make a long lens very useful. :-)

Hmmm...  Are you an Oompah-Loompah??
:)

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Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 11:09 GMT
> Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot
> via an electronic viewfinder and screen

Having recently moved to a DSLR from an EVF equipped Canon S1 I really
miss the compositional advantage an EVF gives you (well, me anyway!)

Sure, the resolution on the S1 is lousy, but with a decent resolution
and responsiveness I would pick EVF every time. You're looking at the
picture you're going to take, not the picture you think you're going to
take. It really is very seductive IMO.

If the EVF on the new Olympus super zoom is good enough I may well sell
my K100D to fund it (and I do really like my 100D).

Andrew McP
Mark² - 29 Jan 2007 11:26 GMT
>> Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot
>> via an electronic viewfinder and screen
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

That's what you grew accustomed to, so that's understandable.
If you shot sports, wildlife, or other subjects where split-second timing
can be everything, you'd appreciate the fact that there is nothing more
"live" than optical TTL viewfinders.  With any EVF, there is some delay, and
this means reacting is artificially slowed.

But if you're happy with it... then of course, do what suits you.

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Toni Nikkanen - 29 Jan 2007 11:36 GMT
> That's what you grew accustomed to, so that's understandable.
> If you shot sports, wildlife, or other subjects where split-second timing
> can be everything, you'd appreciate the fact that there is nothing more
> "live" than optical TTL viewfinders.  With any EVF, there is some delay, and
> this means reacting is artificially slowed.

I think the EVF's of today are not good enough, but I can imagine a
super-EVF that would be even better than a good TTL viewfinder. When
the resolution and response times are so good one can't distinguish
it from the real thing.
Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:56 GMT
>> That's what you grew accustomed to, so that's understandable.
>> If you shot sports, wildlife, or other subjects where split-second timing
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> the resolution and response times are so good one can't distinguish
> it from the real thing.

I'd never say that would never happen, but current technology is too limited
in that regard.  And we have to deal with current reality, we can't buy a
camera with what we'd like to see, we have to buy a camera with what we can
get.

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Skip - 29 Jan 2007 12:54 GMT
>> Personally, I would never want to compose my shot, or time my shot
>> via an electronic viewfinder and screen
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Andrew McP

In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think
you're going to take?"  With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with
the others, the viewfinder coverage is between 95% and 97% of the total
image.
It's not just the resolution that makes an EVF a deal breaker in my eyes (no
pun intended) its the lag time.  Even a lag measured in milliseconds is too
much, compared to a viewfinder that reflects real time reality.

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Toni Nikkanen - 29 Jan 2007 13:02 GMT
> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think
> you're going to take?"  With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with
> the others, the viewfinder coverage is between 95% and 97% of the total
> image.

I am not the OP but: EVF could also show you an impression of how the picture
is going to be exposed, not just how it's going to be framed and focused.
Also, it would simplify design by making it possible to remove the mirror
and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could be
attached closer to the sensor.

I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too little
resolution, but that could change, given enough effort.
C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:21 GMT
>> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think
>> you're going to take?"  With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I am not the OP but: EVF could also show you an impression of how the picture
> is going to be exposed, not just how it's going to be framed and focused.

Hah! I have never seen an EVF that came anywhere close to showing me how the
picture was going to be exposed. They are all too bright.

> Also, it would simplify design by making it possible to remove the mirror
> and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could be
> attached closer to the sensor.
>
> I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too little
> resolution, but that could change, given enough effort.

True. Someday we will get an EVF that will just blow our socks off. But not
yet. Perhaps even as we speak, some bright young engineer is working on the
camera that will finally free us from the mirror.

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John McWilliams - 30 Jan 2007 01:59 GMT
> True. Someday we will get an EVF that will just blow our socks off. But not
> yet. Perhaps even as we speak, some bright young engineer is working on the
> camera that will finally free us from the mirror.

I've already outlined mine: A blue tooth screen ca. 5x7 that we can
attach to an arm, bag, table, or hanging off a mono or tripod on a
flexible mount so we can turn it any old way. Auto screen brightness so
it's not too bright at night nor too dim at noon. Still will need to
look at histograms occasionally, tho.

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DoN. Nichols - 30 Jan 2007 02:41 GMT
According to Toni Nikkanen  <toni@morgoth.tuug.fi>:

> > In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you think
> > you're going to take?"  With some DSLRs, WYSIWYG, most literally, and with
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could be
> attached closer to the sensor.

    So -- what *you* want is not a DSLR, but an interchangeable lens
rangefinder style camera with a big enough sensor to give high
resolution and high ISO with reasonably low noise.

    And you still have to live with the time to close the shutter,
flush the stale viewfinding image out of the display, and then open and
close the shutter to take the actual image before reading it off the
sensor.

    And what are you going to do in situations where a twenty second
exposure time is called for -- or even a half second exposure time.  I
don't think that you'll get a good enough image for composition with the
display under those circumstances.

> I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too little
> resolution, but that could change, given enough effort.

    Every time the display increases resolution (at the cost of
higher power and longer refresh time), the resolution of the sensor is
likely to increase at the same time (also slowing the transfer time to
the display), so you will never really catch up.  And the focus is going
to be on improving the resolution at the sensor, not at the display.

    The only way to speed up the transfer from the sensor (for a
given resolution) is to increase the number of channels through which
the transfer takes place from the sensor to assemble the image in the
buffer RAM.  And then, the image in the buffer needs to be processed to
fit the display.  You would then need multiple channels into the display
to speed up *that* transfer.

    While there are times when a display is convenient for awkward
taking angles, I *really* prefer the eye-level view through the
pentaprism for all other circumstances.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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Toni Nikkanen - 30 Jan 2007 07:22 GMT
>     So -- what *you* want is not a DSLR, but an interchangeable lens
> rangefinder style camera with a big enough sensor to give high
> resolution and high ISO with reasonably low noise.

I want an interchangeable lens camera with a TTL eye-level
viewfinder. It doesn't have to be mirror-based; it could be EVF if the
implementation is good enough.  It's not going to be for at least five
years, but that's a long time in this industry and anything can happen
in five years. I am not waiting to buy one now because it's certainly
a too long wait, but rather envisioning or hoping what the Santa Claus
of the future might bring me.

>     And you still have to live with the time to close the shutter,
> flush the stale viewfinding image out of the display, and then open and
> close the shutter to take the actual image before reading it off the
> sensor.

Mere technicalities; this is all electronics and fixable given sufficiently
advanced technology, though maybe not for the shutter part of the problem..

>     And what are you going to do in situations where a twenty second
> exposure time is called for -- or even a half second exposure time.  I
> don't think that you'll get a good enough image for composition with the
> display under those circumstances.

On the contrary, it could even work as an light amplifier of sorts, given
near-magical breakthrough x that's gonna be invented in five years ;)

>     Every time the display increases resolution (at the cost of
> higher power and longer refresh time), the resolution of the sensor is
> likely to increase at the same time (also slowing the transfer time to
> the display), so you will never really catch up.  And the focus is going
> to be on improving the resolution at the sensor, not at the display.

As I understand it, even with current technology you don't need to transfer
the whole sensor data for live preview. Anyway I do understand the
"live preview" feature has a negative impact on sensor fill factor. However,
as I already said, I have great faith in the electronics industry :)

Given the current pixel counts (some 230k) you could multiply that by 8,
up the FPS to 30, gets the amount of data to transfer to
158 megabytes per second. That's a lot, but we've used to seeing chips
twice as fast appearing every 18 months or so.

As an example, remember how some years ago some people would say, given the
DSLR's of the time, that you could never achieve good continuous shooting
performance and small shutter lag with digital, at least nothing like the
9fps that the best motorized 35mm SLR's could. Well, we have the Nikon D2H
and Canon EOS 1DsMkII now. A huge step up in speed in just a few years. And
I don't think they have stopped improving their products just yet.

>     While there are times when a display is convenient for awkward
> taking angles, I *really* prefer the eye-level view through the
> pentaprism for all other circumstances.

I prefer eye-level view also. That's why I sent this letter to the
Santa Claus of the future. I want the Super-EVF, eventually.
Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:48 GMT
>> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you
>> think
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> picture
> is going to be exposed, not just how it's going to be framed and focused.

It could, and should, but it doesn't show accurate exposure, and the
resolution in some models is too low to be an accurate reflection of focus.

> Also, it would simplify design by making it possible to remove the mirror
> and prism. I believe better wide-angle lenses could be made if they could
> be
> attached closer to the sensor.

Again, it could, but it doesn't.  The Oly has a live LCD and a mirror, which
needs room to swing, sideways, in this case.

> I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too
> little
> resolution, but that could change, given enough effort.

But the discussion is of what is, not what should be or could be.
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Toni Nikkanen - 30 Jan 2007 07:24 GMT
> > I agree that the current EVF implementations are too slow and have too
> > little
> > resolution, but that could change, given enough effort.
> But the discussion is of what is, not what should be or could be.

I refuse to give up my right to dream up new, better products just because
some people have a fixation on the present ;)
Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 13:43 GMT
> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you
> think you're going to take?"

On my S1 when I half press for exposure the picture I see on screen is
pretty much *exactly* what is going to be saved, no guesswork. That's
very useful, especially when shooting into the sun or working in low
light.

I also enjoy being able to leave the camera at my eye, press a button to
quickly check the image I just took (or use the auto review setting),
then move to the next picture with exposure corrections if necessary. No
taking the camera away, squinting at the LCD in bright conditions, and
raising the camera again.

EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future.

Andrew McP
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 14:37 GMT
>> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you
>> think you're going to take?"
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future.

I use a Sony DSC-R1 for real estate photography.  It has an electronic
viewfinder with 235,200 pixels.  This electronic viewfinder is a
substantial step up from the S1's, but it is truly dreadful to use.

The reason I bought the R1 was the superlative Carl Zeiss lens, which
produces remarkable results, with outstanding sharpness and very low
distortion.  The only viewfinder I use is the LCD screen, which can be
tilted, rotated and twisted and acts much like a waist-level
viewfinder on a medium format film SLR.  

It is a wonderful way to compose images.  For the work I do with this
camera, I don't miss an SLR's TTL viewfinder and I certainly don't
need an electronic viewfinder.  I also have two Canon EOS 5D DSLRs
which I use for most of my other work, but the R1 is the master of
this particular job.

For me, the future of non-SLR digital cameras lies in improving LCDs
so they can be used in the same way as that on the R1.  An R2 model
with a 3 inch LCD would be a wonderful camera.  

But I gather Sony is really struggling to sell Alpha DSLRs, and having
made a large investment in the Alpha project there is probably little
interest in developing a successor to the R1.
J. Clarke - 29 Jan 2007 15:37 GMT
>>> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you
>>> think you're going to take?"
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>made a large investment in the Alpha project there is probably little
>interest in developing a successor to the R1.

What _somebody_ should try IMO is a body with an LCD similar to the
R1's that will take the lenses from an SLR system.  I'd pay a
reasonable amount for a body like that from Canon that took my
existing EOS lenses.  There are times when the SLR's finder actually
is limiting--and yes, lurkers, I know about right angle attachments
and the like.
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 16:37 GMT
>What _somebody_ should try IMO is a body with an LCD similar to the
>R1's that will take the lenses from an SLR system.  I'd pay a
>reasonable amount for a body like that from Canon that took my
>existing EOS lenses.  There are times when the SLR's finder actually
>is limiting--and yes, lurkers, I know about right angle attachments
>and the like.

That's a great idea, but given Sony's problems with very slow sales of
the Alpha DSLR, it probably isn't going to happen very soon.

To be honest, another of my reasons for buying the R1 was its fixed
lens.  I do a lot of work on and adjacent to construction sites, and
dust is a significant problem.  Since I started using the R1 for this
work, which I do under contract, my sensor cleaning problems have
disappeared completely.

It is also worth pointing out that the excellence of the Carl Zeiss
lens on the R1 is partly doen to the absence of a reflex mirror.
Apparently, the rear element gets very close to the sensor, which
would mean that this lens design could never be made in an
interchangeable version.  That's a pity, because it is optically
superior to the Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L, one of which I also own.
Alan Browne - 30 Jan 2007 00:49 GMT
>>In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you
>>think you're going to take?"
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> taking the camera away, squinting at the LCD in bright conditions, and
> raising the camera again.

> EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future.

No.  The optical quality is simply not there.  Not sure how DOF preview
would work (I suppose it could be implemented).  More battery drain.
Who needs to squint at a display.  Simply shoot and ignore the urge to
chimp  ... well the odd sample to make sure you're not totally out to lunch.

There are certainly advantages with a twist/tilt screen so that you can
shoot uncomfortable angles.

Other than that ... no thanks.

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Skip - 30 Jan 2007 03:53 GMT
>> In what way does an optical viewfinder limit you to "the picture you
>> think you're going to take?"
>
> On my S1 when I half press for exposure the picture I see on screen is
> pretty much *exactly* what is going to be saved, no guesswork.

"Pretty much" and "exactly" are mutually exclusive.

That's
> very useful, especially when shooting into the sun or working in low
> light.

Working with an optical VF is just as useful, and you do know what you shot,
you just saw it.

> I also enjoy being able to leave the camera at my eye, press a button to
> quickly check the image I just took (or use the auto review setting),
> then move to the next picture with exposure corrections if necessary. No
> taking the camera away, squinting at the LCD in bright conditions, and
> raising the camera again.

The only problem with that comes when you are shooting moving objects, the
dreadful (to possibly overstate the case) response time can be literally
dizzying.
> EVFs are not yet perfect, but I think they are the future.
>
> Andrew McP

They most probably are the future, since they alleviate a whole bunch of
lens design problems, but they are very far from perfect.
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Andrew MacPherson - 30 Jan 2007 06:36 GMT
> "Pretty much" and "exactly" are mutually exclusive.

Ok, ok, but you know what I mean. :-)

Overall I'm certainly not saying EVFs in their current state are ideal.
However I am saying that having used an EVF'd camera extensively and now
a DSLR, I know what I want and prefer in my ideal camera. Optical
viewfinders are great for framing, but for telling me what I'm actually
about to capture they fall short of ideal (whether that's depth of field
issues, white balance, or poor exposure).

Obviously that's what the camera's electronics and my experience are
for. But I think EVFs are probably part of the eventual transition away
from the SLR format which we retain for historical as well as practical
reasons. I may, as ever, be wrong.

Andrew McP
Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 13:48 GMT
> It's not just the resolution that makes an EVF a deal breaker in my
> eyes (no pun intended) its the lag time.
Resolution is vital. The 115k on my S1 is nowhere near enough pixels to
check focus accurately, especially when relatively small depth of field
is involved. I've been caught out by that lots of times, and the small
onboard LCD makes checking unreliable. The S2/3 didn't solve this, but
cameras like the FZ50 or S9600 do much better. The new Olympus super
zoom may be too small -- like the S3 -- to have a decent sized LCD, sadly.

You're right though in saying that lag is another very important factor.
The Olympus has five frame predictive buffering though, which should
essentially eliminate shutter lag (while filling up the XD card very
quickly!)

Andrew McP
David Dyer-Bennet - 30 Jan 2007 00:57 GMT
> It's not just the resolution that makes an EVF a deal breaker in my eyes (no
> pun intended) its the lag time.  Even a lag measured in milliseconds is too
> much, compared to a viewfinder that reflects real time reality.

That's a design issue that needs to be solved of course.  If they do
that it's a pain.

I will point out that a Leica M3 has something like a 70ms shutter lag
-- you just don't get down to zero!

One of these days the camera will be able to capture an image 100
milliseconds *before* you push the button, the same way audio recorders
now can start recording a couple of seconds *before* you pushed the
record button (they have a buffer that length and constantly stream the
sound through it; when you push the button they start recording with
what's in the buffer).

(Yeah, I know that won't happen on cameras any time soon; far too high a
data bandwidth is needed, and the chips can't support it.  Cool idea to
consider though.)
POHB - 30 Jan 2007 14:58 GMT
> One of these days the camera will be able to capture an image 100
> milliseconds *before* you push the button, the same way audio recorders
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> data bandwidth is needed, and the chips can't support it.  Cool idea to
> consider though.)

The BBC used a gadget like that for filming Planet Earth and got some
awesome shots of sharks catching seals.  A super hi-speed hi-res
digital video camera adapted from recording crash tests.  Hit the
button and it grabs a few seconds of slow-mo from before and after.
After each shot they thought they might want to keep the camera was
unusable for 15 minutes while the footage was downloaded.
Bill Funk - 30 Jan 2007 18:52 GMT
>One of these days the camera will be able to capture an image 100
>milliseconds *before* you push the button, the same way audio recorders
>now can start recording a couple of seconds *before* you pushed the
>record button (they have a buffer that length and constantly stream the
>sound through it; when you push the button they start recording with
>what's in the buffer).

Here's what you need: PROCOG!
http://earth.prohosting.com/bfunk/

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Randall Ainsworth - 29 Jan 2007 13:09 GMT
In article
<memo.20070129110938.1920B@address_disguised.address_disguised>, Andrew
MacPherson <andrew.mcp@DELETETHISdsl.pipex.com> wrote:

> Having recently moved to a DSLR from an EVF equipped Canon S1 I really
> miss the compositional advantage an EVF gives you (well, me anyway!)
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> If the EVF on the new Olympus super zoom is good enough I may well sell
> my K100D to fund it (and I do really like my 100D).

So you prefer looking at a little TV screen as opposed to the optical
view through the taking lens? What a moron!
Andrew MacPherson - 29 Jan 2007 13:47 GMT
> What a moron!

Ah, I love the smell of reasoned debate in the morning. It's always nice
to see an open mind in action.

Andrew McP
Skip - 30 Jan 2007 04:27 GMT
>> What a moron!
>
> Ah, I love the smell of reasoned debate in the morning. It's always nice
> to see an open mind in action.
>
> Andrew McP

Yeah, we just generally ignore him.  Even those of us who are on the same
side of a discussion.

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Bill Funk - 29 Jan 2007 19:03 GMT
>In article
><memo.20070129110938.1920B@address_disguised.address_disguised>, Andrew
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>So you prefer looking at a little TV screen as opposed to the optical
>view through the taking lens? What a moron!

Ah, yes; the call of the closed mind.

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C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:24 GMT
>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> electronic viewfinder and screen.  There is no substitute for the true TTL
> optical viewfinder, in my view.

It is not necessarily true that the mirror would block it, though. Three
cameras (already mentioned), have been built that solve that problem. One of
the functions of the mirror in a DSLR is to move up and block any light
coming into the camera from the viewfinder. The old Rolleiflex got around
that problem by having the mirror drop down instead of flipping up, but it
required two shutters: one to expose the film and one to close the
viewfinder. The shutters were coupled so that they fired at the same time. I
could see an approach like that being used for an EVF in a DSLR.

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J. Clarke - 29 Jan 2007 19:29 GMT
>>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>It is not necessarily true that the mirror would block it, though. Three
>cameras (already mentioned), have been built that solve that problem.

Actually, _one_ has, that is being sold under three different labels
(the Panasonic and the Leica both use the Olympus mechanism), and it
does it by having a second sensor that works off the reflected image.
What normally appears on the LCD isn't any closer to what the main
sensor sees than is what you see through the optical finder.  They do
have a mode in which the main sensor is used but this involves locking
the mirror out of the way and disables both the optical finder and the
meter and introduces a 1 second delay between pressing the release and
the beginning of the exposure.

>One of
>the functions of the mirror in a DSLR is to move up and block any light
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>viewfinder. The shutters were coupled so that they fired at the same time. I
>could see an approach like that being used for an EVF in a DSLR.
Randall Ainsworth - 29 Jan 2007 13:08 GMT
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.

Oh jeez...it's tard time again.
Tony Polson - 29 Jan 2007 13:24 GMT
>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
>
>Oh jeez...it's tard time again ...

Yeah, whenenever you post here.
Bill Funk - 29 Jan 2007 19:05 GMT
>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
>
>Oh jeez...it's tard time again.

Oh, jeez... it's time for those who are too busy to help to come out.
It's nice to know that you continue to think anyone who knows less
than you is fair game for ridicule.

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Reggie Bush, according to
federal agents, turned up
in old taped conversations
discussing gifts and cash
with sports agents during
his USC days. It's serious.
If he turns out to be corrupt
enough, he could get four to
eight years as governor of
Louisiana.

Mark² - 29 Jan 2007 23:47 GMT
>> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
>
> Oh jeez...it's tard time again.

Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an answer to a
question like these.
We all did.  -Just not any more.

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Randall Ainsworth - 30 Jan 2007 02:59 GMT
> Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an answer to a
> question like these.
> We all did.  -Just not any more.

When I started, I read books and magazines and scrounged for
information any place I could. And I knew that cameras called SLRs had
a mirror that flopped up.
Mark² - 30 Jan 2007 04:08 GMT
>> Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an
>> answer to a question like these.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> information any place I could. And I knew that cameras called SLRs had
> a mirror that flopped up.

You did...and so did I.  But some get at these answers by talking to other
people who know more than they do.   I don't see anything wrong with that.

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C J Campbell - 30 Jan 2007 07:40 GMT
>> Surely you started, at some point, as someone who would need an answer to a
>> question like these.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> information any place I could. And I knew that cameras called SLRs had
> a mirror that flopped up.

Is there any question that you would consider worthy of being asked on this
news group?

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Dr. Joel M. Hoffman - 29 Jan 2007 13:16 GMT
>Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
>reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.

At least on all the cameras I've used, the screen is only for
reviewing.

-Joel

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C J Campbell - 29 Jan 2007 18:12 GMT
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
>
> Thanks,
> Tony

It cannot be used for composing on nearly all the DSLRs. The mirror gets in
the way. Using an LCD for composition adds size, weight and complexity to an
already very complex camera system. Most DSLR users don't like the idea of
composing with the electronic screens -- for good reason.

1) The screens introduce a delay between composition shooting. If you wave
your hand in front of a typical point and shoot camera which uses the LCD for
composition, you will see that there is a significant delay between the time
your hand moves and when it shows up on the screen. That delay is the
difference between taking a picture of a bird or a bare twig.

2) The screens are fuzzy and often difficult to see in bright daylight. They
are useless for focusing or checking depth of field. They show too bright of
a picture in dim conditions.

3) The screens are a serious drain on the battery, which already has quite a
bit to do in the modern DSLR, what with operating the shutter, focusing
mechanism in the lens, image stabilization, metering, viewfinder lighting,
LCD operation, etc. Indeed, battery usage is such a problem that many pro
photographers turn the LCD display off even for review between shots.
Instead, they take a short break and turn the screen on for a quick review
for anything that needs to be re-shot.

4) LCD screens make holding the camera steady for hand-held photography more
difficult. You have to hold the camera out away from your body in order to
see the screen, which is much less stable and much more tiring, especially if
you are doing a lot of shooting. Mount a heavy lens and you would really have
a problem. The whole ergonomic design of an SLR camera is geared towards
holding the camera up to your eye. You hold the camera with one hand and the
lens with the other, using the lens hand to focus and zoom. Consumer point
and shoots have electric zoom motors, which are very slow. The whole point of
the DSLR is speed. We don't want to wait while an electric motor racks the
lens in and out. We want to twist that zoom ring and have our composition
right now, if not fifteen seconds ago. We DSLR users are not a patient lot.
Holding a camera with a big zoom out far enough to see the LCD while zooming
the lens, well, that just isn't going to work. We only have two hands, you
know.

You understand, DSLR users are not likely to be a bunch of hidebound
traditionalists who like doing things the old way. We use DSLRs, after all.
No, most of us would use an LCD screen to compose pictures if somehow the
drawbacks could be addressed.

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HankB - 29 Jan 2007 21:37 GMT
On Jan 29, 12:12 pm, C J Campbell
<christophercampbellnos...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> 1) The screens introduce a delay between composition shooting. If you wave
> your hand in front of a typical point and shoot camera which uses the LCD for
> composition, you will see that there is a significant delay between the time
> your hand moves and when it shows up on the screen. That delay is the
> difference between taking a picture of a bird or a bare twig.

I believe there is yet an additional delay. If the same sensor is used
for the EVF as for capturing the image, it has to be turned off and
discharged (or something like that ;) before the exposure can be made.
That happens after the shutter is pressed and after the image is
focused, so it just adds to the delay. I also suspect that sensors are
optimized for motion capture or still capture and likely can't be
optimized for both.

For camers that use a separate sensor this would not be a problem.

-hank
Frank - 29 Jan 2007 22:15 GMT
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.
>
> Thanks,
> Tony
Skip - 01 Feb 2007 20:46 GMT
Which Sony would that be?  Because the A100 or whatever it is, doesn't.  It
would be nice to add a little text for clarification, next time you double
post.

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David Dyer-Bennet - 30 Jan 2007 00:53 GMT
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.

Generally speaking DSLRs (and the D-80) don't do live preview.  The
reasons include:

1)  Mechanical shutter

2)  Mirror in the light path

3)  Video readout circuitry missing from the sensor chip (and part of
why the pixels are so much better form DSLRs is because of this, they
can use the extra space for other things).

This is a shame, because composing on the LCD is a huge improvement in
usability for many purposes, and can even contribute to longer hand-held
exposures without camera shake.

The ability to see the screen from an angle (greatly enhanced if the
screen tilts and swivels) makes low and high angle shots much easier to
take.

The boost to the light levels of the screen makes it easier to see
what's going on in very dim light situations.

It's of course pretty much hopeless for manual focusing.  And the design
would have to be such that pushing the shutter release captured the
actual moment being previewed on the screen at the time; if there were
temporal skew that would be hideous.

Oh, the hand-held exposure thing?  Put the strap around your neck,
adjust the length so that you can pull your elbows into your stomach,
grasp the sides of the camera, and push it out until the strap is tight
against your neck.  In my experience (on cameras that *do* support LCD
preview) I can hand-hold this way at lower shutter speeds than trying to
pull the camera up to my head.  The camera doesn't fit my head in any
position, so it's hard to hold really steady (and I've been doing
handheld available light work since 1969).

Yes, lots of people just wave the camera out in front of them at arm's
length, and that's generally pretty unstable, but what matters isn't
what bad things other photographers may do; what matters is what
pictures *you* can take with the camera and techniques.
DoN. Nichols - 30 Jan 2007 01:56 GMT
According to Tony  <Tony001@rr.net.net>:
> Can the screen on a DSLR be used to compose, or is it only for
> reviewing after the picture is taken?  I'm looking at a Nikon D-80.

    Only for reviewing -- and for navigating the configuration
menus. and looking at the histogram for exposure evaluation after the
shot is taken.

    The reason is that the sensor is covered by both the shutter and
the mirror, so it *can't* see the image to compose with until the moment
of exposure.

    The benefits from this are that you don't have to close the
shutter, flush the sensor, and re-acquire to take a shot, so the delay
from shutter button press to capture of the image is a *lot* shorter
than the typical P&S digital camera.  Probably not a problem in a posed
shot, but for capturing images as things happen, it is a major benefit.

    And -- because the sensor is not running full time (as it is in
a P&S) -- the sensor is cooler and thus has less signal noise in the
image.

    And I find myself wondering (having used both types of digital
camera) exactly *why* you would want to compose with the rigidly mounted
display on a DSLR?  Yes, the hinged displays on high-level P&S cameras
can be nice for taking shots from otherwise awkward angles, but they are
usually not that convenient compared to the eye-level finder in the SLRs
-- digital and film.

    Certainly, holding the camera to your face as you compose and
take reduces shake in the image compared to holding the camera out at
arm's length to view the display for composition.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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