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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007what camera for a teenager
my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she has been wanting a better camera for a long time. She has birthday coming up (turning 16) and we are debating a better camera like a Nikon D40. I have a D70 with a couple lenses and really like it. Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too expensive and we have been watching the sales. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she has > been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. Now that Nikon is pushing the D-80 and the D-40, better prices are available for the D-50 and D-70s. If I did not already have a D-50, my choice would be the D-70s. The 18-70mm kit lens is great. > Now that Nikon is pushing the D-80 and the D-40, better prices are available > for the D-50 and D-70s. If I did not already have a D-50, my choice would be > the D-70s. The 18-70mm kit lens is great. Or the D-50 with the 18-70 lens -- and that last can be found used fairly commonly (people sold it to get the 18-200 zoom). The D-50 also has the body focus motor so you can add the autofocus 50 mm f/1.8 (or just start her with that). The D 40 doesn't. If the D-70s body is within $50 of the D50, you might want to go with that rather than the D50, but do get the 18-70 lens. >> Now that Nikon is pushing the D-80 and the D-40, better prices are >> available [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > If the D-70s body is within $50 of the D50, you might want to go with > that rather than the D50, but do get the 18-70 lens. I bought my D-50 with the 18-70mm, later purchasing a 18-200mm VR. I do not use the 18-70mm anymore. The other big lens purchase was a Nikkor 12-24mm. I agree about getting the D-70s, the bodies sell for about the same price now. The illuminated LCD screen on the top is a much needed feature, also the DOF preview. > I agree about getting the D-70s, the bodies sell for about the same price > now. The illuminated LCD screen on the top is a much needed feature, also > the DOF preview. It depends. I've never missed an illuminated LDC screen on top. I suspect that DoF would be hard to gauge in the small viewfinder, too, given my eyes. >> I agree about getting the D-70s, the bodies sell for about the same price >> now. The illuminated LCD screen on the top is a much needed feature, also [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > suspect that DoF would be hard to gauge in the small viewfinder, too, > given my eyes. I carry a small keychain/LCD flashlight just for that purpose. The Katz Eye viewfinder screen helps get the focus right. >> I agree about getting the D-70s, the bodies sell for about the same price >> now. The illuminated LCD screen on the top is a much needed feature, also [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >suspect that DoF would be hard to gauge in the small viewfinder, too, >given my eyes. A camera without that top LCD is a non-starter for me. Got used to it with the C3030Z; my Lumix FX01 doesn't have one, but that's an always-with-me camera for those shots that present themselves at odd times. My 'real' cameras have one.  SignatureCalifornia's Assembly prepared Monday to move the state's primary up to February. An early California primary has unique advantages. It gives each candidate the chance to spend all their money to finish third behind Gary Coleman and a porn star. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she > has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. This really depends on how serious and good a photographer she really is, and where she wants to go with her skill. If she's serious and you get her a camera without enough 'bells and whistles' she could get discouraged. A parallel here, I once had a friend that loved to bicycle, his wife wanted to go along on rides. So he bought her a very low priced bike from one of the *-mart type stores. probably 5 speed and heavy. After a couple rides together she quit. Why - well he had the lightest top of the line model and she couldn't keep up (Duh!). Was he really trying to discourage her from riding? I've seen the same with tennis players. One had a heavy wood racket while the other had the latest, lightest Titanium. Guess which one played best and loved the game. The D40 (as far as a sailsdroid said) is a watered down D50, the D50 is almost as good as a D70. So I'd look for a good deal on a D50 and a different lens set as your D70. Sticking with Nikon has the advantage that the two of you could trade lenses when need be. Or give her you D70 and treat yourself to the newer D80. Then you won't be spending your budget on her. :-) SignatureMike Vore http://www.OhMyWoodness.com http://mike.vorefamily.net/twr giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have already discussed giving her a second camera she has but the idea was discarded because giving a hand me down camera as a present is not a good idea >> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >> has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 27 lines] > Or give her you D70 and treat yourself to the newer D80. Then you won't > be spending your budget on her. :-) >giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have >already discussed giving her a second camera she has but the idea was >discarded because giving a hand me down camera as a present is not a >good idea There's absolutely nothing wrong with giving a used camera as a gift; it allows a better gift than something new in most cases. Now, hand-me-down towels may not be a good idea, but many, many teenagers have been delighted to get used cars as gifts. SignatureCalifornia's Assembly prepared Monday to move the state's primary up to February. An early California primary has unique advantages. It gives each candidate the chance to spend all their money to finish third behind Gary Coleman and a porn star. >>giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have >>already discussed giving her a second camera she has but the idea was [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Now, hand-me-down towels may not be a good idea, but many, many > teenagers have been delighted to get used cars as gifts. My own daughter's sweet 16 was a 1988 Mustang convertible (albeit a 4-cylinder with a 4-speed stick). At the time, it was a 12 year old car (ancient), but I didn't hear any complaints. My own passion for snapshots hasn't trickled down genetically. If I had gotten her a top of the line DSLR with a variety of lenses, the camera would be gathering dust in a remote corner of her room and the lenses would be left lying about the house. For her, the SD200 was fine. Dammit. dwight car will come later in the year >>> giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have >>> already discussed giving her a second camera she has but the idea was [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > > dwight william kossack skrev: > giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have > already discussed giving her a second camera she has but the idea was > discarded because giving a hand me down camera as a present is not a > good idea What have the world come to? I'm 29 - and if my father have handed down his SLR when i was a teenager (and that was already 10 years old at that time) I would be the luckiest kid around. If my kid, in the distant future where i do have kids, think that my two year old camera is not a good gift when he/she wants a camera. I'll include a month of grounding with all privileges removed just for beeing a spoiled brat. my wife feels that a hand me down would not do. We are trying to make this an extra special birthday (within our budget) > william kossack skrev: >> giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > include a month of grounding with all privileges removed just for beeing > a spoiled brat. > my wife feels that a hand me down would not do. We are trying to make > this an extra special birthday (within our budget) I've been editing this story out of earlier replies to you, but I think I will give it now. When I was in my teens, I read and wrote poetry, enough that I was published by 19. I read people like Allen Ginsberg, Marianne Moore, T.S. Eliot, William Butler Yeats, Ezra Pound, and Elizabeth Bishop. My dad got me a copy of _Best Loved Poems of the American People_ which was to the poetry I was reading what a Coolpix would be to what your daughter wants. It made it clear that Dad knew nothing about poetry and not much about me, which may have been a harsh teenaged judgment but hey, he could have asked me what I wanted for Christmas. When I was giving my niece the Autocord that I gave her for Christmas, I asked her if she thought she might be interested in it ($200 worth of camera was a significant present from me). Turns out she likes old things that work, at least looking at them, and had professors in her department who took medium format photographs. Your daughter's old enough to be aware of the financial ups and downs of the family, and might feel even more adult and taken seriously as a reasonable person if you explain the options and ask her for advice. And a $20 disappointment isn't in the same league as a several hundred dollar disappointment. Get yourself either the D50 or the D80 if you can't afford the D200 at this point. > my wife feels that a hand me down would not do. We are trying to make > this an extra special birthday (within our budget) If you're set on giving her a DSLR, but has to be brand new, and the $600 or a bit less that a Nikon D40 would cost is too much for your budget, then I think you may have created a problem that can't be solved. Have you considered any of the "SLR-like" digital cameras, superzooms like the Canon S2 IS? That's been superseded by the S3 IS but is still available from a number of sellers, is mostly the same as the newer model and can be found online brand new for under $300 -- a great price for a really nifty camera. Much as I hate to recommend anything that isn't a Nikon, the S2 IS is really worth considering. I even have one myself! Neil >> william kossack skrev: >>> giving her the two year old D70 would not work. My wife and I have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >> include a month of grounding with all privileges removed just for beeing >> a spoiled brat. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she > has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. You might be able to find a re-furbed D50 for less than the D40, or even a used D70 which should be substantially less than either. Doc a second hand or re-furbed camera has been ruled out. This is a special sweet 16 present that she has been wanting for a long time. >> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >> has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Doc Does she use your D70? Does she like it? Does she feel it's a bit big and heavy? (without the 70-200 VR attached :-) ) Would she like a lighter camera body? SignatureJoan http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly :a second hand or re-furbed camera has been ruled out. This is a special : sweet 16 present that she has been wanting for a long time. she has used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she does not borrow it again > Does she use your D70? Does she like it? Does she feel it's a bit big > and heavy? (without the 70-200 VR attached :-) ) > > Would she like a lighter camera body? "Used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she does not borrow it again " ????????????? And you still think she is "sweet" 16 ??? I could understand " she borrowed it without asking and we had a discussion about taking things that are not yours", but having to keep it "locked up" - I certainly would not be looking to spend big $$ for her present. Both my kids (15 & 17) know there would be serious consequences - maybe once under special conditions if they could not get in touch with me and there was a special reason, but certainly not a second time. Get her the two pack of disposable cameras from the grocery store. mikey ("but I wanted it" is NOT sufficient reason to just take things !!!) > she has used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so > she does not borrow it again [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> >> Would she like a lighter camera body? this was an event that happened almost 2 years ago > "Used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she > does not borrow it again " ????????????? [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] >>> >>> Would she like a lighter camera body? >she has used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she >does not borrow it again Yet another reason to gift her with it; she *obviously* likes it. >> Does she use your D70? Does she like it? Does she feel it's a bit big >> and heavy? (without the 70-200 VR attached :-) ) >> >> Would she like a lighter camera body? SignatureCalifornia's Assembly prepared Monday to move the state's primary up to February. An early California primary has unique advantages. It gives each candidate the chance to spend all their money to finish third behind Gary Coleman and a porn star. > she has used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she > does not borrow it again [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > > > Would she like a lighter camera body? She's a photographer with a camera that she's already found to be limiting and you're bogarting the good one. People put your photos on their web sites to promote their bands? >she has used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she >does not borrow it again What's the concern with her using it, does she lose things? Break things? Are you afraid she'll wear it out? Are you using it all the time (kind of hard when it's locked up)? From what you're telling us she was making money with that camera when she was 14 and instead of encouraging her you pulled the plug on her--maybe if you hadn't she'd be able to buy her own camera by now. If you've got a kid who has found an honest way to make a buck that she could carry through into adulthood and make a living at, count yourself lucky and do everything you can to help her, don't agonize over the cheapest way to give her a birthday present. >> Does she use your D70? Does she like it? Does she feel it's a bit big >> and heavy? (without the 70-200 VR attached :-) ) >> >> Would she like a lighter camera body? > From what you're telling us she was making money with that camera when > she was 14 and instead of encouraging her you pulled the plug on > her--maybe if you hadn't she'd be able to buy her own camera by now. I suggested that she should charge something or at least make sure she was getting credit on the websites. I don't believe her father said she was doing this. I do think she should be making sure she's mentioned on the web sites she's shooting for and designing and should be encouraged to charge at least something for the shots. I'd like to see him get her a camera that would allow her to work at least semi-professionally, but I wouldn't beat up on him this much. I was charging $1 a snap in 1967 at college for film costs and pocket change (at 19). She is shooting for local rock bands and doing web sites for them, but nobody has said whether she's charging or not. Some kid here, a high school senior, who shoots motocross, was the first person to get a D200 from one of the local camera stores. His parents bought it for him, were buying some nice glass for him when I was in the store. I was wondering if we were getting an economic gap or a gender gap. If it's an economic gap, then, well, my cameras are cheap compared to a D-200, too. If the father can't afford more than the D-50 or D-70s, then those are good enough cameras. And I don't know how good she is about keeping her stuff, or how dangerous her neighborhood or school is. The D-70s would be a good backup camera body if she does turn pro and get something better later. >> From what you're telling us she was making money with that camera when >> she was 14 and instead of encouraging her you pulled the plug on [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >I'd like to see him get her a camera that would allow her to work at >least semi-professionally, but I wouldn't beat up on him this much. I think what set me off was the bit about locking it up. If my Dad had locked up his Argus that had gone through the Pacific during WWII with him I'd likely have never developed an interest in photography. Now if I had lost it or broken it he'd have been really upset, but my _using_ it he never had a problem with. Of course an Argus is a lot more difficult to kill than a DSLR, and by that time it wasn't a shiny new status symbol, it was a camera that had been through a war. I mean a camera you can replace, missed opportunities and your kid's youth you can't. >I was charging $1 a snap in 1967 at college for film costs and pocket >change (at 19). She is shooting for local rock bands and doing web >sites for them, but nobody has said whether she's charging or not. Even if she's not charging, if one of those bands makes good then she could if she keeps up her relationship with them (which lack of a suitable camera seems to have already damaged) she could go right to the top with them. And she may have missed an opportunity to start charging already. >Some kid here, a high school senior, who shoots motocross, was the first >person to get a D200 from one of the local camera stores. His parents [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >be a good backup camera body if she does turn pro and get something >better later. I agree that the D-50 or D-70 would be fine--the D-40 though just seems too limited. > I agree that the D-50 or D-70 would be fine--the D-40 though just > seems too limited. We don't know what she wants. The D-40 would be too limited without replacing the focusing screen, and those replacement focusing screens aren't that cheap. >> I agree that the D-50 or D-70 would be fine--the D-40 though just >> seems too limited. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >The D-40 would be too limited without replacing the focusing screen, and >those replacement focusing screens aren't that cheap. Yeah, I put one in my 30D. As a baseline though she's apparently been using his D70 successfully and that being the case I wouldn't want to stick her with anything less capable unless she specifically asked for it. no body pays her money these are bands consisting of high school or just out of high school teenagers. Sometimes she works as the 'merch girl' at the concert selling t-shirts for the bands. All she might get out of it is a shirt that maybe she has helped design. She does it because it is fun. last night my wife and I went out looking at cameras. When my wife saw how expensive a digital slr would be she started looking at some higher end point and shoot cameras at around $300. >> she has used it without permission...I have to keep it locked up so she >> does not borrow it again [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >>> >>> Would she like a lighter camera body? william kossack skrev: > last night my wife and I went out looking at cameras. When my wife saw > how expensive a digital slr would be she started looking at some higher > end point and shoot cameras at around $300. Let me see. You consider an inferior p&s camera that would not cover her needs just because you do not think a better second hand camera is a good present for a 16 year old? Why not just give her the option. One spanking new p&s that will not be that much better than what she probably already, with terrible noise at the usual light levels that concerts have (due to a tiny sensor and sub par optics) - or your old d70 > last night my wife and I went out looking at cameras. When my wife saw > how expensive a digital slr would be she started looking at some higher > end point and shoot cameras at around $300. I *really* wouldn't go that route. Consider new body and used lens if you really can't bear to give her a used camera. Talk to her -- even low-end, this is expensive enough that giving her a disappointing surprise is an expensive proposition. If she'd be happy with a used D70 and lens, then that's the way to go. Then again, you might find that she's really been lusting for a RB 67 film camera, which you can get used for around your budget (I suggest a counter offer of a Bronica if she's secretly lusting for a 'blad, though). Talking to us implies you want it to be a surprise, but talking to her is going to get you more information. You need to talk to her so this gift bonds you together. And if she's lusting after your D70, consider passing it on to her now. It will always be Dad's camera, not just another used camera. Our time line is about 2 months before the birthday. I'm watching the sales. One problem is that I just came off of 6 months of unemployment so keeping the cost down is important. I use the D70 fairly regularly so while I would like a D200 it is not in the budget. I keep the 70 locked up in my study with my computers, my whiskey, and my exotic wood (wood working is another hobby) Two years ago when she borrowed my D70 and got hair spray all over it I would have said absolutely no to such an expensive gift as a digital slr. She has greatly improved and matured. Both my wife and I think she would do well with one. Cost is the issue with an SLR. Right now she thinks we would never get her such a nice camera because of the cost. However, when I mentioned looking at a D200 she piped up and said that if I got a 200 then I could give her my 70. As a result I know she wants an SLR >> last night my wife and I went out looking at cameras. When my wife saw >> how expensive a digital slr would be she started looking at some higher [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > And if she's lusting after your D70, consider passing it on to her now. > It will always be Dad's camera, not just another used camera. > However, when I mentioned looking at a D200 she piped up > and said that if I got a 200 then I could give her my 70. As a result I > know she wants an SLR You could get yourself the D80 and have most of the features of the D200 except for being able to meter AIS lenses and the weather sealing, as far as I know. And I'd talk to her about the camera because this is enough of a strain on you financially that you and she should be sure that it's going to be something that she does want and she should be mature enough to understand why she's not getting a new camera if you get a used camera or a refurbished camera. If you give her the right camera, it won't matter that it's used and not a surprise. She's old enough to know what's going on with the family financially, too. The main reason I've looked at the D200 is because the metering with AIS lenses of which I have some really good glass. I've done photography for 30 years and I learned to always carry two cameras when out in the woods or on a shoot. Having done photography in a torrential tropical rain storm. Weather proofing is can be important. The 80 also uses a different memory card than the 70 or the 200. I'll have to talk to my wife about disclosing the camera gift. >> However, when I mentioned looking at a D200 she piped up >> and said that if I got a 200 then I could give her my 70. As a result I [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > a surprise. She's old enough to know what's going on with the family > financially, too. Get her another used D70 and a used 50mm f/1.8 or 28mm f/2.8, it should meet your budget & her needs *very* well. A simple powerful lens is a great way to learn, her friends will be baffled and amazed. Check out www.keh.com (very reliable). > Our time line is about 2 months before the birthday. I'm watching the > sales. [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] >> And if she's lusting after your D70, consider passing it on to her >> now. It will always be Dad's camera, not just another used camera. > a second hand or re-furbed camera has been ruled out. This is a special > sweet 16 present that she has been wanting for a long time. Get her a D200 then and make it the birthday present for the next three birthdays and graduation. Or get her a new old stock D50 with the 18-70 lens and a copy of a how to run a photograph business book. But if she has the D200, she can start trying to sell stock photos. no the D200 would be for me!-) >> a second hand or re-furbed camera has been ruled out. This is a special >> sweet 16 present that she has been wanting for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > But if she has the D200, she can start trying to sell stock photos. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she > has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. Is she serious about photography or just mostly takes snapshots? Either way, as a interim solution, I'd get her a higher end, 6 to 8 megapixel point-n-shoot (less pricey than a DSLR) that has a "manual" mode with a zoom range that goes from moderate wide angle to moderate tele -- 28mm to 85mm 35mm equivalent. This will do until she's really good enough to NEED a DSLR. Stef >> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >> has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Is she serious about photography or just mostly takes snapshots? Note that the daughter has had a P&S digital for some time, and is now wanting something better. > Is she serious about photography or just mostly takes snapshots? > Either way, as a interim solution, I'd get her a higher end, 6 to 8 > megapixel point-n-shoot (less pricey than a DSLR) that has a "manual" mode > with a zoom range that goes from moderate wide angle to moderate tele -- > 28mm to 85mm 35mm equivalent. This will do until she's really good enough > to NEED a DSLR. You don't become good enough to NEED a DSLR without having an SLR (DSLR or non-D-SLR). You need it to try the expanded possibilities. Doug McDonald one catch is that much of her shooting is for posting on web pages. For example she takes pictures of some of the local 'Rock' bands and helps create web pages for them. she does not need the higher megapixel in my view beyond about 6 >> Is she serious about photography or just mostly takes snapshots? >> Either way, as a interim solution, I'd get her a higher end, 6 to 8 [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > > Doug McDonald > one catch is that much of her shooting is for posting on web pages. > > For example she takes pictures of some of the local 'Rock' bands and > helps create web pages for them. > > she does not need the higher megapixel in my view beyond about 6 She needs a camera with interchangeable lenses -- and she's closer to being a professional that any number of people who put their photos up on photo web sites and who have really good cameras. If bands are using her photographs on their websites, she needs to make sure she's given credit and she should consider charging something (I used to make pocket change taking photos of folks in the dorms and selling them prints for $1 back in 1967). But, yeah, she doesn't need anything right now more than a six MP camera unless she starts doing posters for the bands or does promotional shots for them, all of which seem like likely things for her to be doing if she's working with local bands. Consider giving her your d70 and buying yourself a D200 and then giving her a fully capable pro camera for her high school graduation if she's getting paid for work in the next two years. PS she also styles their hair. She does not do the photos as much these days probably because of her current camera but there is someone over at the house about once a week to get their hair style we are trying to encourage both desires. >> one catch is that much of her shooting is for posting on web pages. >> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > her a fully capable pro camera for her high school graduation if she's > getting paid for work in the next two years. > PS she also styles their hair. She does not do the photos as much these > days probably because of her current camera but there is someone over at > the house about once a week to get their hair style > > we are trying to encourage both desires. I'd suggest getting her either the D 50 or the D 70s, with both the 50mm 1.8 and the 18-70 zoom. It's a sweet kit (I've got the D 50 with that and the VR 105 macro lens). If she becomes a professional hair stylist, having the camera skills would be useful there, too. > For example she takes pictures of some of the local 'Rock' bands and > helps create web pages for them. > > she does not need the higher megapixel in my view beyond about 6 I would agree. I would say "of course, it doesn't hurt to have more", but many of the higher pixel count cameras have worse noise at ISO 1600 due to the smaller pixel sites, and that's going to be a potentially big deal for that type of photography. Also, assuming we are talking about at least some concert photography, I'd be *really* reluctant to get a camera that doesn't work with any widely available / inexpensive fast lenses. If it's true that the D40 is not compatible with, for example, the 50/1.8, then in my opinion it shouldn't even be in the realm of possible consideration. Seems liekly there would be other desirable lenses - possibly including ones you already own and she might like to try out - that wouldn't work. I don't really know the Nikon lens line, so I can't say how bad a problem it would be, but it seems like something I would not want to deal with. Since I'm a Pentax guy, and no one has mention non-Nikon options, I thought I'd mention the K100D as an excellent camera for what you are talking about, if you are also looking outside the Nikon family. --------------- Marc Sabatella marc@outsideshore.com Music, art, & educational materials Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer" http://www.outsideshore.com/ > If it's true that the D40 > is not compatible with, for example, the 50/1.8, then in my opinion it > shouldn't even be in the realm of possible consideration. Someone else pointed out she could use manual focus and a light meter. I'd argue that for fast stage shots, the D50 with that lens is going to be more nimble. >> If it's true that the D40 >> is not compatible with, for example, the 50/1.8, then in my opinion it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I'd argue that for fast stage shots, the D50 with that lens is going to > be more nimble. The AF will probably help response. Then again, learning classic techniques like zone focusing and pre-setting exposure for each area you wander into remain valuable -- they're often *faster* than modern automation, if you do them right. The places where you really can't beat AF are things like sports photos, with fast-moving subjects needing to be tightly framed. >>> If it's true that the D40 >>> is not compatible with, for example, the 50/1.8, then in my opinion it [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >The places where you really can't beat AF are things like sports photos, >with fast-moving subjects needing to be tightly framed. If she's getting paid for this she needs a tool, not an instructional aid. >>>> If it's true that the D40 >>>> is not compatible with, for example, the 50/1.8, then in my opinion it [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > If she's getting paid for this she needs a tool, not an instructional > aid. If she's doing this seriously, she needs to learn all the relevant techniques, not just the quick-and-dirty ones that a modern camera can do for her. She has to learn to actually take pictures herself. the plan for this summer is to try to get her into a class at the local community college >>>>> If it's true that the D40 is not compatible with, for example, the >>>>> 50/1.8, then in my opinion it shouldn't even be in the realm of [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > techniques, not just the quick-and-dirty ones that a modern camera can > do for her. She has to learn to actually take pictures herself. > he places where you really can't beat AF are things like sports photos, > with fast-moving subjects needing to be tightly framed. Sounds like some rock performances -- and I tried shooting fighting cocks with a manual focus once (they weren't armed with metal spurs so weren't killing each other). They can't go far but they can go fast in all directions. >> he places where you really can't beat AF are things like sports photos, >> with fast-moving subjects needing to be tightly framed. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > weren't killing each other). They can't go far but they can go fast in > all directions. I haven't seen rock performances that active, but I've seen very few national-act rock performances. The cock-fighting sounds like they're moving a lot *relative to their size*, which is roughly what matters I think. >>> If it's true that the D40 is not compatible with, for example, the >>> 50/1.8, then in my opinion it shouldn't even be in the realm of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you wander into remain valuable -- they're often *faster* than modern > automation, if you do them right. And in my experience, AF is pretty iffy in low light conditions, and the desire to get a fast enough shutter to freeze subject motion often means overriding the meter anyhow (and putting up with somewhat underexposed shots, then correcting them in PP). So I guess I would agree it's not a deal-breaker. Still, if the 50 isn't that much more, it still sounds like a no-brainer, if one is going with Nikon DSLR in the first place (sounds like the OP is reconsidering the P&S option). --------------- Marc Sabatella marc@outsideshore.com Music, art, & educational materials Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer" http://www.outsideshore.com/ > Is she serious about photography or just mostly takes snapshots? > Either way, as a interim solution, I'd get her a higher end, 6 to 8 > megapixel point-n-shoot (less pricey than a DSLR) that has a "manual" mode > with a zoom range that goes from moderate wide angle to moderate tele -- > 28mm to 85mm 35mm equivalent. This will do until she's really good enough > to NEED a DSLR. I'm not convinced swapping one P&S for a more expensive P&S is the answer. Cramming in more and more pixels into a tiny finger nail sized sensor can't be that good a thing. Also some "high end" P&S actually cost more than a second hand D50 with a second hand 18-70 lit lens or a 50/1.8. (I'd give the crippled D40 a wide berth though). cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk the problem is giving a second hand present I was wondering what the opinion was of the D40. I'll need to check the prices of the D50 >> Is she serious about photography or just mostly takes snapshots? >> Either way, as a interim solution, I'd get her a higher end, 6 to 8 [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk > the problem is giving a second hand present > > I was wondering what the opinion was of the D40. I'll need to check > the prices of the D50 Were I going for a DSLR, the size and weight of the D40 would be very appealing. Having to haul around an outfit with bulky DSLR and heavy lenses will discourage people taking photos - and that's not what you want. David > the problem is giving a second hand present > > I was wondering what the opinion was of the D40. I'll need to check the > prices of the D50 If your daughter has used your D70 and is comfortable with it then may I suggest you go for the D50 as the D40 has been cut down just a bit too much for someone who's already familiar. The D40 really is entry entry level in being a step up from the more advanced P&S devices. Plus she can always borrow some of your lenses. Doc > I'm not convinced swapping one P&S for a more expensive P&S is the answer. Especially not when she's doing web shots for bands which means that she's either not charging or not charging enough already but doing work that the bands think makes them look better than the shots their friends can take. I think she's ready for the D200 with some radio strobes myself. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she > has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. I got my first SLR (film, long ago) as a teenager, and a number of other people in my highschool were using SLRs (I wasn't always clear which ones they "owned" vs. which they were merely "borrowing" from their parents). This was before auto-exposure. So I have a good sample size saying that a teenager can make good use of an SLR (I don't think the digital vs. film issue is relevant here). Mine cost $280 new. In 1969. Adjusting for cost of living increase...that'd be $1500 in today's dollars, it says here. Plus I had to buy film and processing (and darkroom chemicals); whereas most of that's included with a digital camera :-). Of course "too expensive" is really an issue of current budget, rather than any sort of historic comparison. You can often get the D50 cheaper than the D40, right now. You could also maybe do okay with something like a used Fuji S2, or a used D70. Or...drumroll please...upgrade to a D200 for yourself and pass on your D70 to your daughter (I think that's where a number of my highschool friends' cameras came from). Seems to me there's significant benefit to maintaining lens compatibility within the family, which argues for staying with a Nikon mount system for you. > Seems to me there's significant benefit to maintaining lens > compatibility within the family, which argues for staying with a Nikon > mount system for you. Be warned that the D40 only works with AF-S lenses so you may not be able to share your lens kit with her. >Be warned that the D40 only works with AF-S lenses so you may not be >able to share your lens kit with her. It only *autofocuses* with AF-S lenses. It should work just fine in manual focus mode with any Nikon-mount lens having a CPU. Anyway, it's a good discipline for a teenager starting out in serious photography to stick to manual focus. >>Be warned that the D40 only works with AF-S lenses so you may not be >>able to share your lens kit with her. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >a good discipline for a teenager starting out in serious photography >to stick to manual focus. I doubt that she's going to agree, especially if she's getting paid for her work already. > It only *autofocuses* with AF-S lenses. It should work just fine in > manual focus mode with any Nikon-mount lens having a CPU. Anyway, it's > a good discipline for a teenager starting out in serious photography > to stick to manual focus. The D40 is not really set up for manual focus like the traditional film SLRs. It has the same cheap viewfinder shared with the D50 & D70s rather than the "real" prism viewfinder of the D80 & D200, and even these don't seem to have the traditional "split image/microprism" manual focus screens. Also the AF-D Nikkor lenses don't seem to be designed with manual focus in mind like the manual only AIS lenses. About the only thing the d40 seems to have going for it is the larger LCD screen - it does not even have the d50's dedicated WB & ISO selection buttons. cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk >The D40 is not really set up for manual focus like the traditional film >SLRs. It has the same cheap viewfinder shared with the D50 & D70s rather [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >to have going for it is the larger LCD screen - it does not even have the >d50's dedicated WB & ISO selection buttons. I was just recently in touch with the people at Katz Eye, and they're planning to come out soon with a replacement split-prism screen for the D40, as they have already for the other Nikon DSLR's. (This adds about $100 to the cost of the camera.) Keep in mind also that the D40 can use all the F-mount manual lenses, provided one is content not to have on-board metering capability. > "Alexander Arnakis" <invalid@address.none> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Also the AF-D Nikkor lenses don't seem to be designed with manual focus in > mind like the manual only AIS lenses. Yah, it'll be tough to MF on anything less than a D80... even then, not easy. > About the only thing the d40 seems > to have going for it is the larger LCD screen If it's comparable to a D200 LCD that's a bonus, I can zoom beyond 100% on my D200 to check critical focus. My D70 LCD was not nearly as useful. > it does not even have the > d50's dedicated WB & ISO selection buttons. Another reason to go for the D50 or used D70. If she's serious, she will want better access to manual controls. > Anyway, it's > a good discipline for a teenager starting out in serious photography > to stick to manual focus. If she's shooting live stage bands doing performances with movements, especially off the floor movements, I'd think that she'd be happy to have an autofocus on board. We do have some information about some of the things she's shooting on a volunteer/semi-pro basis. What works better for that? I knew one photography program that didn't let students shoot 35 (circa 1992) and required all students to buy a medium format camera. >> Seems to me there's significant benefit to maintaining lens >> compatibility within the family, which argues for staying with a Nikon >> mount system for you. > > Be warned that the D40 only works with AF-S lenses so you may not be > able to share your lens kit with her. That's not true. It works with AF and even AI lenses. It just doesn't auto-focus with them (or meter with AI). Neither of which is a particular problem for me; I still own cameras without meters, and I only got into autofocus in 1994 and still use AI lenses on my D200. It's a significant loss of functionality for some situations and in many people's opinions, definitely, and deserves to be noted (and has been noted previously in this thread). But such lenses *do* "work" with the camera, and well enough that quite a few people are using them, not just in some theoretical but totally impractical sense. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she > has been wanting a better camera for a long time. > > She has birthday coming up (turning 16) Get her a Canon Digital Elph. I am crazy about the form factor. James Bond would give up his LTK for such a TINY gadget! <http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=14 5&modelid=12913> This little gem will turn her friends absolutely GREEN! Signature:) JR > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she > has been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. Let her decide. > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she has > been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. She's still a teenager. I say better is okay, but she may prefer small and fun, unless she's really into serious photos and photography. Does she take a lot of snapshots, or does she take a lot of "photographs?" > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she has > been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. For a new camera in that category, the D40 is about as good as you can find, and at a remarkably low price. However, the D50 is now showing up on sale with the 18-55mm kit lens at about the same price as the D40, and in some respects the D50 may be the better camera. It's bigger and heavier than the D40, almost as big as your D70. But it has such features as an LCD display on the top deck, and the body coupling for older AF lenses, that the D40 does not have. Those and some other differences may or may not be important to your daughter. Personally I prefer (and bought) the D40, because I already had a D70s and wanted a second, smaller and lighter camera using the same lenses, flash units etc. Between the D40 and the D50 otherwise I think it's pretty much a wash. Each has some advantages and disadvantages compared to the other. If the D40 or D50 are really "a bit too expensive" for you then I think you'd better start looking at used cameras. I'd stay with Nikon in any case. For one thing, you and your daughter might be able to share accessories; for another thing, your familiarity with the Nikon system would probably be useful to your daughter at times. And finally, of course, Nikons are best. :-) Neil >> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she has >> been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >another thing, your familiarity with the Nikon system would probably be >useful to your daughter at times. This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from using them. >And finally, of course, Nikons are best. :-) > >Neil > This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her > a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from > using them. She might get a canon F mount adaptor, so getting her a Canon might not be a sure fire way to protect his glass! cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk >> This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >> a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from >> using them. > >She might get a canon F mount adaptor, so getting her a Canon might not be a >sure fire way to protect his glass! But he could take it away from her and lock it up with his exotic wood. Or he could give her all his Nikon stuff and get Canon for himself--that's the ticket. >cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk >>> This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>> a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > wood. Or he could give her all his Nikon stuff and get Canon for > himself--that's the ticket. Yes, if for some reason he wanted to downgrade. Neil gads! Is this discussion getting nasty for some reason?-) >>>> This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>>> a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Neil > gads! Is this discussion getting nasty for some reason?-) Well, not nasty, I hope. But after all there are only two kinds of cameras: Nikons, and the ones that wish they were Nikons. ;-) Neil >>>>> This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>>>> a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> >> Neil > > gads! Is this discussion getting nasty for some reason?-) > > Well, not nasty, I hope. But after all there are only two kinds of cameras: > Nikons, and the ones that wish they were Nikons. ;-) You are at least making this statement in jest. There are only two kinds of cameras -- cameras with movements and cameras that wish they had movements. I've read people post that for their photography, a 35 mm camera was better than medium or large format. In the cases of people who've made considered tests of equipment and what they like to shoot and under what conditions, the time and money they have to devote to photography, choosing a 35 mm camera or a digital dslr of any format is a different proposition than merely buying what's advertised and easily found in Ritz Camera Stores (I have nothing against Ritz Camera; my D-50 came from them since nobody else was selling just the body), or what everyone else has. Digital is a medium. It makes a whole lot of things easier for people; it still can't match larger formats; it has a distinctive look which people may or may not like for any given photographic solution. I'm about to put my 105mm on my D50 and go shoot a spider. For macro and instant gratification, digital can't be beat. And given old eyes, auto focus can't be beat. Everything is a matter of time and price points. I'd love to have a digital view camera >>> gads! Is this discussion getting nasty for some reason?-) >> Well, not nasty, I hope. But after all there are only two kinds of cameras: [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > > Everything is a matter of time and price points. > I'd love to have a digital view camera If you're shooting catalogue stills, they can be had for less than obscene amounts of money used. Otherwise, the cost is amazing. >> > gads! Is this discussion getting nasty for some reason?-) >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > kinds of cameras -- cameras with movements and cameras that wish they > had movements. Fair enough. :-) The only thing I ever owned that was anything like a view camera was a Burke & James 2¼ x 3¼ press camera, over 50 years ago. That of course didn't have the range of movements of a real view camera, but it did have most of the movements in a limited way and they were a lot of fun to play with. Using cut film and holders away from home was sort of a nuisance, but I did enjoy working with that camera. > I've read people post that for their photography, a 35 mm camera was > better than medium or large format. In the cases of people who've made [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Everything is a matter of time and price points. No argument with any of that. Neil take a look at http://home.comcast.net/~wskossack/new_boxes.html pictures are not great but I recently put together a setup to improve them >>> This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>> a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > >> cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk >take a look at http://home.comcast.net/~wskossack/new_boxes.html > >pictures are not great but I recently put together a setup to improve them Not bad--here are a few I made for Christmas presents <http://www.flickr.com/photos/39383723@N00/sets/72157594445381450/>. >>>> This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>>> a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> >>> cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk have you managed to sell anything? maybe take this off line >>take a look at http://home.comcast.net/~wskossack/new_boxes.html >> >>pictures are not great but I recently put together a setup to improve them > > Not bad--here are a few I made for Christmas presents > <http://www.flickr.com/photos/39383723@N00/sets/72157594445381450/>. Oh man I love exotic wood & cameras, check out this guy's work: http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Southwest/art >>>>>This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>>>>a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>> >>>>cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk >>>take a look at http://home.comcast.net/~wskossack/new_boxes.html >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > >http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=Southwest/art Nice. The bear's not bad either. Right now I'm in the process of putting together a tool chest out of Lyptus (nice looking but a real pain in the butt to work with) and so far if there's a way to screw it up I've managed to do it, but when it's done I'll put some pictures up. I've hosed it up enough that I think I'm going to do another in black and honey mesquite. >>>>>>This presupposes that he _wants_ to share accessories. If he gets her >>>>>>a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >>>> >>>>>cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk >>>>take a look at http://home.comcast.net/~wskossack/new_boxes.html >>>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Nice. I love his work, mostly mesquite, it feels so nice in your hand. Nice guy too. > The bear's not bad either. The bear was roughed out in Mexico from mesquite then this guy drives them up to AZ and polishes & oils them & sells them to timber-built mansion owners in Colorado, he wasn't done yet, they look gorgeous when finished like the bear is wet from coming out of a river. I just got an email the other day from him asking where my pics were so he could show a customer, I did that for fun & practice but I've booked a paid shoot with a stone sculptor next week. > Right now I'm in the process of putting together a tool chest out of > Lyptus (nice looking but a real pain in the butt to work with) and so > far if there's a way to screw it up I've managed to do it, but when > it's done I'll put some pictures up. I've hosed it up enough that I > think I'm going to do another in black and honey mesquite. I gave all my boxes away as gifts long ago, I wish I had pics. I used to make like little jewelery boxes with scooped out smooth rounded inside, snug slip fit tops, inlaid veneers & mother of pearl. Fine hardwoods on a small piece like that can be polished & oiled till they glow like a gemstone. >>> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >>> has [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > a Canon then he won't have to lock up his lenses to keep her from > using them. That's true. Every silver lining has a cloud. ;-) Neil how about Sony? My wife saw an add for Sony tonight? >>>> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >>>> has [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > > Neil >how about Sony? My wife saw an add for Sony tonight? Sony DSLRs are what used to be Minolta. They can use Nikon lenses with an adapter, but you lose autofocus and autoaperture among other things--essentially the lens becomes manual in all regards. Work fine with Minolta lenses though. While they're OK cameras Sony has a habit of dropping unprofitable product lines, so they may end up orphaned if they don't sell well. >>>>> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >>>>> has [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] >> >> Neil > how about Sony? My wife saw an add for Sony tonight? Dunno about Sony. I do have a Minolta Maxxum 5D which is basically the same camera as the Sony Alpha, and it's very good. The body-based anti-shake system works well, and its main appeal obviously is for folks who already have some Minolta lenses to fit it, since those lenses automatically become image stabilized when used on the Minolta/Sony body. I do have a cupboard full of Minolta lenses, as well as some third-party lenses in the Minolta mount, so that works well for me. But I still prefer Nikons. And the Nikon D40 with the 18-55mm kit lens at $600 is just irresistible. Neil >>>>> my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she >>>>> has [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] >> >> Neil Geeze this is an idiotic thread. Who cares what you get her? > my daughter has an inexpensive point and shoot digital camera but she has > been wanting a better camera for a long time. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too > expensive and we have been watching the sales. I know that many don't care but I don't know anyone besides myself that owns a DSLR (well there is my brother but he has a Canon rebel). The only information I've gotten prior to this thread is from sales people or google searches which can be problematic > Geeze this is an idiotic thread. Who cares what you get her? > [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >> Are there other options? I'm not stuck on Nikon. The D40 is a bit too >> expensive and we have been watching the sales. >I know that many don't care but I don't know anyone besides myself that >owns a DSLR (well there is my brother but he has a Canon rebel). The only >information I've gotten prior to this thread is from sales people or google >searches which can be problematic It was a perfectly reasonable question, and since several people answered with suggestions it's obvious that some of us do have ideas on the topic we want to offer. Ignore people who post things like, "Geeze this is an idiotic thread. . . ." One wonders why they bother posting at all. Neil |
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