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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2007

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10 vs 8 MP

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VC - 21 Jan 2007 19:04 GMT
I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just want
to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
The very respectfule sources say - no difference. While the image is bigger
actually Canon's 8MP CMOS is ever sharper than 10 Mop sensor.
Read here for example at the bottom of the page
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page24.asp
Many other similar sources agree ( for example cnet.com)

Now compare the following two images from the same source.

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS30D/Samples/Compared/Studio/30d_iso0100_
std.JPG

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD80/Samples/Compared/Studio/400d_iso0100.JPG

Magnify the images to 400% and try to read the vertical text on the middle
bottle.
The text produced by Canon XTi's is readable the one from Canon 30D (or
350D) is not.

To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?
Jan Böhme - 21 Jan 2007 20:03 GMT
VC skrev:

> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?

First off, I thought both texts were readable - and I downloaded the
30D image first. But yes, the text on the 400D reads slightly easier.

Please note, though, that the 10MPsensors, whether from Canon, Sony or
anyone else, all seem to employ some degree of on-chip noise reduction.
On-chip noise reduction presumably increases with ISO sensitivity. And
small detail with extremely high contrast - such as white text on
black, or vice versa - is less blurred by the effects of noise
reduction than small detail with low contrast.

Thus, the 400D may well be a tad  better at capturing the detail of
high-contrast text than the 30D at ISO100. But it is still a very open
question whether this performance can be generalised  to low-contrast
detail such as fur or foliage, or whether it can be generalised at all
to, say, ISO800.

Jan B?hme
Alan Browne - 21 Jan 2007 21:11 GMT
> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just want
> to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> The text produced by Canon XTi's is readable the one from Canon 30D (or
> 350D) is not.

Assuming you mean the white on black text.
The 400D is a bit better in those images, yes.  The CAPS lettering is
readable and the lower case, almost so.
The 30D the CAPS lettering is somewhat readable, the lower case not at all.

10 Mpix is only 11% better resolution than 8 Mpix ... but when you hit a
borderline case (like this) the text goes from 'just readable' to 'not
readable' over that small difference.  Threshold case.

They should both render 8x12's very cleanly and double that if you don't
examine them up too close.

Cheers,
Alan

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babaloo - 21 Jan 2007 21:16 GMT
Splitting digital hairs.
You must live a charmed life if you have nothing better to agonize over than
this piffle.
Mark² - 21 Jan 2007 21:25 GMT
> Splitting digital hairs.
> You must live a charmed life if you have nothing better to agonize
> over than this piffle.

Oh I don't know.  Camera makers have put in quite an effort to make these
small (+2MP) upgrades which causes understandable confusion in the buying
public with just such questions.  It's not a dumb question at all.

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Alan Browne - 21 Jan 2007 21:42 GMT
> Splitting digital hairs.
> You must live a charmed life if you have nothing better to agonize over than
> this piffle.

Since there is a discernable difference in the text readability (despite
the CW that 8 to 10 Mpix is a trifle) then it is not splitting hairs nor
is it agonizing.

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Doug Robbins - 24 Jan 2007 14:21 GMT
Yes it is.  It's equipment masturbaton.

>> Splitting digital hairs.
>> You must live a charmed life if you have nothing better to agonize over
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> the CW that 8 to 10 Mpix is a trifle) then it is not splitting hairs nor
> is it agonizing.
Mark² - 21 Jan 2007 21:17 GMT
> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. (
> just want to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?

Regarding enlargement/printing, the difference is pretty insignificant.

If I were you, I'd wait about 4 weeks to see Canon's nearly-certain
replacement of the 30D (February should bring significant
announcements)...and then decide to either wait a month or two for thenew
model...or pick up the outgoing model for less, since prices usually drop at
that point.

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Prometheus - 21 Jan 2007 21:56 GMT
>I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just want
>to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?

Probably the fact that your links are to cameras with different lenses?

More important than any effect near the limit of resolution is what
lenses your are going to use. I purchased the 350D in preference to the
20D or 30D because the difference in price did not make it twice as good
optically, and was enough to purchase an extra lens.
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Alan Browne - 21 Jan 2007 22:49 GMT
>> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>>
>> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/CanonEOS30D/Samples/Compared/Studio/30d_
>> iso0100_std.JPG
>> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD80/Samples/Compared/Studio/400d_is
>> o0100.JPG

>> To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?
>
> Probably the fact that your links are to cameras with different lenses?

Nope.  The images above are both for Canon and both tests were with the
Canon 50 mm f/1.4.

IAC, the centre (where the text occurs) of a cropped sensor 50 f/1.8
Nikkor and 50 f/1.4 Canon are almost the same sharpness.

http://www.photodo.com/product_44_p4.html Canon 50 f/1.4
http://www.photodo.com/product_257_p4.html Nikkor 50 f/1.8
(x axis is mm from center of the sensor)

Cheers,
Alan

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David Kilpatrick - 21 Jan 2007 22:12 GMT
> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just want
> to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
> The very respectfule sources say - no difference. While the image is bigger
> actually Canon's 8MP CMOS is ever sharper than 10 Mop sensor.
> Read here for example at the bottom of the page
> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/canoneos400d/page24.asp

Broadly correct. The 400D (XTi) is the softest-imaging of all the
current 10 megapixel DSLRs - I've tested all of them now. It is probably
designed this way to reduce noise levels. The 30D is a pretty sharp 8
megapixels, because they made changes to lower the level of
anti-aliasing and recover more fine image detail.

If you can afford the 30D, which is a far superior object physically,
there's no contest. I find the 400D colours, contrast and sharpness
quite disappointing but my daughter, who uses it permanently and shoots
stock landscapes and stuff for our library files, is under instructions
never, ever to shoot anything except RAW and it's amazing what Adobe
Camera Raw can do to pep up the results.

David
dennis@home - 22 Jan 2007 09:06 GMT
>I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just
>want to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?

view it 1:1 and it is much clearer in both cases, viewing at 4:1 is letting
your screen interfere.

You get about 12% more resolution by going from 8 to 10 Mpixels.
Most people wouldn't be able to tell.
C J Campbell - 23 Jan 2007 00:09 GMT
>> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just
>> want to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> view it 1:1 and it is much clearer in both cases, viewing at 4:1 is letting
> your screen interfere.

True. And magnifying it more than 1:1 has the same effect. You can only see
how sharp an image really is by viewing it at 1:1. Anything else and it is a
matter of how your screen displays it.

> You get about 12% more resolution by going from 8 to 10 Mpixels.
> Most people wouldn't be able to tell.

Especially on a computer screen -- computer screens are less than 2MP. You
have to actually print an image to see any difference at all, and you don't
get any visible improvement there unless you blow it up very large.

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Paul J Gans - 23 Jan 2007 04:17 GMT
>True. And magnifying it more than 1:1 has the same effect. You can only see
>how sharp an image really is by viewing it at 1:1. Anything else and it is a
>matter of how your screen displays it.

Nit pick:  A print and the computer screen are not equivalent.
Their "pixels" are spaced differently.  So one should compare
at 1:1 on the same media.

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C J Campbell - 23 Jan 2007 18:10 GMT
>> True. And magnifying it more than 1:1 has the same effect. You can only see
>> how sharp an image really is by viewing it at 1:1. Anything else and it is
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Their "pixels" are spaced differently.  So one should compare
> at 1:1 on the same media.

I did not mean to imply that, but I can see how my post might have been
confusing. Thanks for the clarification.

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World Famous Flight Instructor

dennis@home - 23 Jan 2007 14:27 GMT
.

> Especially on a computer screen -- computer screens are less than 2MP. You
> have to actually print an image to see any difference at all, and you
> don't
> get any visible improvement there unless you blow it up very large.

Err.. 1:1 was pixels in image to pixels on display.
You then have to scroll around to see all the image on most monitors but at
least it as sharp and as detailed as you are going to get.
C J Campbell - 23 Jan 2007 18:13 GMT
> .
>>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> You then have to scroll around to see all the image on most monitors but at
> least it as sharp and as detailed as you are going to get.

Eh, that's what you get when you talk about two different things in one post.
Yes, I meant 1:1 image to pixels on display when I was talking about 1:1.
Then I changed subjects slightly, without being clear that I had departed
from talking about 1:1 display, to talk about displaying pictures on computer
screens in general.

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C J Campbell - 23 Jan 2007 00:04 GMT
> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP.

I guess you know, eh? No, it is not significantly better. Most people get
fuzzier images with more than 8MP, because higher MP counts magnify motion
blur. It you always use a tripod, 10MP should (in theory) be slightly better,
but you lose some resolution with noise reduction software.

In general, I think most people start taking worse images at anything above
6MP, although 8MP is tolerable. Beyond that, you have to be real careful to
get that last bit of extra performance out of more pixels.
Mark² - 23 Jan 2007 00:37 GMT
>> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP.
>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> real careful to get that last bit of extra performance out of more
> pixels.

This is a real benefit of full frame sensors...that they offer higher
resolution without having to use tiny pixel pitch.

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C J Campbell - 23 Jan 2007 18:09 GMT
>>> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> This is a real benefit of full frame sensors...that they offer higher
> resolution without having to use tiny pixel pitch.

For now. How long before we get the 45MP "full-frame" sensor?

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Mark² - 24 Jan 2007 01:19 GMT
>>>> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> For now. How long before we get the 45MP "full-frame" sensor?

Sure, but then imagine 45MP in a 1.6 cropped job!
:)
-Or worse...these little point&shots with that...
Anything to attract the folks meandering through Best Buy...at the mercy of
box-reading salespeople, who know nothing more than the "specs" listed on
the carton...  :(

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Steve Wolfe - 23 Jan 2007 15:23 GMT
>I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just
>want to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )

 It's the difference between making a print that's 11.75" wide, and a print
that's 13" wide.

 Whether that is significant to you - and whether it is *more* significant
than the other advantages of the 30D - is up to you.

steve
Colin_D - 23 Jan 2007 22:31 GMT
> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just want
> to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> To me this is a very big difference. Am I missing something ?

Yes, the lens and focusing.  What apertures were these shots taken at?
Since there is some depth in the target subject, where precisely was the
focus point?  Was it autofocus, or manual, and if manual, on what
exactly was the lens focused?  Was it even the same lens for both shots?
 There is no exif data to find what lens, what aperture. Were the shots
taken by the same person?  There are just too many variables to be able
to put relative sharpness solely down to the sensor.  Any conclusions
drawn from that comparison are unreliable.

Colin D.

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VC - 24 Jan 2007 06:05 GMT
>> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Colin D.
Actually I would be very surprised if the author making such a comprehensive
test would not know or would not care about the lens and other similar
factors.
I believe this is the same lens. In fact the difference between Canon 30D
and Canon 350D is much smaller than between 30D and 400D.
J. Clarke - 24 Jan 2007 14:00 GMT
>>> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>I believe this is the same lens. In fact the difference between Canon 30D
>and Canon 350D is much smaller than between 30D and 400D.

I don't know where anyone gets the idea that there is no EXIF
data--it's all there and according to the EXIF an f/1.4 50mm lens at
f/1.9 was used, autofocus in both cases.
Colin_D - 25 Jan 2007 00:23 GMT
>>>> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> data--it's all there and according to the EXIF an f/1.4 50mm lens at
> f/1.9 was used, autofocus in both cases.

Well, I didn't go to the trouble of importing the images into Photoshop,
but now I have done so, the exif data is there.

The aperture used was f/9, not f/1.9 as you quote, but I guess that was
a typo, and manual focus was used in both cases (scroll further down the
exif to Focus Mode), so the question is, what part of the subject was
focused on?  There is considerable depth in the subject, from the Leica
to the wall behind, I guess probably about 10 or 12 inches.  If you
don't know what was focused on, and it probably wasn't the vertical
writing on the bottle, then estimating relative sharpness other than at
the point of focus is bound to be invalid.

Just to put things in perspective, the image at 400% is 72/4, or 18 ppi.
 That corresponds to a print *18 feet* wide.

Colin D.

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Colin_D - 25 Jan 2007 01:32 GMT
>>>>> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>
> Colin D.

Dammit, I sent it before I added that the writing in question is 7
pixels deep per letter, so in an 18-foot print, the writing measures
0.389 inches, or a little over 3/8ths inch.  How much detail is enough?

Colin D.

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J. Clarke - 25 Jan 2007 03:34 GMT
>>>>> Now compare the following two images from the same source.
>>>>>
[quoted text clipped - 29 lines]
>Well, I didn't go to the trouble of importing the images into Photoshop,
>but now I have done so, the exif data is there.

No need to do that, there are plugins for most of the major browsers
that will report EXIF data.

>The aperture used was f/9, not f/1.9 as you quote, but I guess that was
>a typo, and manual focus was used in both cases (scroll further down the
>exif to Focus Mode), so the question is, what part of the subject was
>focused on?

The 1.9 was a typo and you are correct, it was auto exposure, not auto
focus.  Sorry.

> There is considerable depth in the subject, from the Leica
>to the wall behind, I guess probably about 10 or 12 inches.  If you
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
>Colin D.
Darrell Larose - 25 Jan 2007 00:09 GMT
> I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just want
> to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )

The difference is about 11.2%, big whoop! Go to the better built 30D, or
wait for the soon to be announced 50D
Fred McKenzie - 31 Jan 2007 19:32 GMT
> > I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just
> > want
> > to decide whether to buy Canon XTi or  30d )
> >
> The difference is about 11.2%, big whoop! Go to the better built 30D, or
> wait for the soon to be announced 50D

Actual increase in pixels per millimeter, is approximately the square
root of the total pixel ratio.  If you already have an 8 MP camera and
have satisfactory results, an increase to 10 MP alone is NOT significant.

The real issue is not the increase in pixel count, it is the increase in
technology.  Therefore, Darrell's recommendation is sound.

I have a couple older 6 MP cameras as well as the Sony Alpha 100 with 10
MP.  All make images that are roughly equivalent.  The Sony's built-in
image stabilization is the main factor that makes it superior to the
other two.

I can resist newer models like the 30D or 50D unless they happen to come
with significantly more pixels and a full frame sensor.  I think a
light-weight full frame 22 MP body might sway me if my bank account
could stand the strain!

Fred
Lionel - 31 Jan 2007 20:09 GMT
>> > I am trying to decide if 10 MP is significantly better than 8MP. ( just
>> > want
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>The real issue is not the increase in pixel count, it is the increase in
>technology.  Therefore, Darrell's recommendation is sound.

Yep. My first DSLR was the 6.3MP 10D, & my next was the 8MP 1Dmk2,
which I bought for the better AF, speed, ruggedness & better low-light
performance. The difference in resolution is barely noticable.
 
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