Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2007
IS/VR A-S assumptions
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Alan Browne - 07 Jan 2007 19:07 GMT Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject.
[note: before replying to a specific point, please read in full]
Needle 1. "x stops of vibration (shake) reduction" Assumption: x stops of effective shooting at speeds slower than "rule of thumb" for a handheld shot. (shutter speed = 1/focal length).
I've never made nor seen a "rule-of-thumb" handheld shot that printed sharp at 8x10 without looking a bit (or worse) soft. So what should the proper "rule-of-thumb" reference speed actually be?
As CoC nominally refers to a print of 8x10 (or 8x12 for 35mm), then an 8x10 print size should determine the "rule of thumb" speed. It has never been shown to me (or done by me) that "rule of thumb" speed _works_ for the nominal reference print size of 8x10 (8x12).
Needle 2. Notwithstanding the above, I (and others) have found that "rule of thumb" speed is too slow once the focal length gets over 135mm (or so). It is not linear (though it should be), (or we're not blowing up shorter FL shots to 8x12 where we would see the softness for what it is).
Needle 3. In cropped sensors, the "effective" focal length (for the purpose of image size) is longer. eg: a 50mm lens should use a "rule of thumb speed" of 1/75 of a second or faster. (Since the blowup ratio of a cropped sensor to get to the nominal 8x10/8x12 print size is higher).
The above points should not really bother me (or you) much, as: 1. IS/VR A-S etc. are all benefits and allow us more shooting latitude, so just be happy we have it and take advantage of it!
2. Advertising: However, I just saw an advert in B&H for a Canon lens with IS and a claim of 3 stops. Well, what is the "industry standard"? Is there any? (rhetorical).
Cheers, Alan
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David Ruether - 07 Jan 2007 19:47 GMT > Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject. > > [note: before replying to a specific point, please read in full] (I see that you properly "take things with a grain of salt", and also question simple answers for questions that are not so simple as they may seem...;-)
> Needle 1. "x stops of vibration (shake) reduction" > Assumption: x stops of effective shooting at speeds slower than "rule of thumb" for a handheld shot. (shutter speed = 1/focal [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > It has never been shown to me (or done by me) that "rule of thumb" speed _works_ for the nominal reference print size of 8x10 > (8x12). With a steady hand and multiple exposures of the same thing the 1/FL speed rule can work (or even with slower speeds...), but one complication you catch, below... Also, the *rated* improvement offered by stabilization probably usually has some ad-hype "slosh" built into it and is overly optimistic...
> Needle 2. Notwithstanding the above, I (and others) have found that "rule of thumb" speed is too slow once the focal length gets > over 135mm (or so). It is not linear (though it should be), (or we're not blowing up shorter FL shots to 8x12 where we would see > the softness for what it is). It is non-linear. Try shooting an 8mm fisheye on a FF body - SCADS of hand-holdability are there at rediculously slow shutter speeds, well below 1/8th second. Even the 24mm is easy to hand hold at 1/15th - but a 135 is a bit challenging at 1/125th and a 300mm is more than a challenge at 1/250th (it is nearly impossible). But while most good teles are sharp wide open, most wides are not and can benefit from much smaller stops (especially in the corners), so the practicality of things can even out somewhat...
> Needle 3. In cropped sensors, the "effective" focal length (for the purpose of image size) is longer. eg: a 50mm lens should use > a "rule of thumb speed" of 1/75 of a second or faster. (Since the blowup ratio of a cropped sensor to get to the nominal > 8x10/8x12 print size is higher). While this should be true, it does seem that smaller sensors not only produce greater apparent DOF, but fewer problems with hand-holding. Not sure of this, though...
> The above points should not really bother me (or you) much, as: > 1. IS/VR A-S etc. are all benefits and allow us more shooting latitude, so just be happy we have it and take advantage of it! Yes, unless there are disadvantages...
> 2. Advertising: However, I just saw an advert in B&H for a Canon lens with IS and a claim of 3 stops. Well, what is the "industry > standard"? Is there any? (rhetorical). Prolly not.......! ;-)
> Cheers, > Alan -- David Ruether DRuether@twcny.rr.com rpn1@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
Alan Browne - 07 Jan 2007 22:24 GMT >>Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject. >> [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > question simple answers for questions that are not so simple as > they may seem...;-) Thanks for the benefit of the doubt.
>>As CoC nominally refers to a print of 8x10 (or 8x12 for 35mm), then an 8x10 print size should determine the "rule of thumb" speed. >>It has never been shown to me (or done by me) that "rule of thumb" speed _works_ for the nominal reference print size of 8x10 [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > produce greater apparent DOF, but fewer problems with hand-holding. > Not sure of this, though... That's not so... once you blow up a cropped sensor to a reference size (such as 8x10) then the smaller sensor DOF advantage is removed again.
>>The above points should not really bother me (or you) much, as: >>1. IS/VR A-S etc. are all benefits and allow us more shooting latitude, so just be happy we have it and take advantage of it! [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Prolly not.......! ;-) !!
Cheers, Alan
>>Cheers, >>Alan [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > rpn1@cornell.edu > http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
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gpaleo - 07 Jan 2007 19:56 GMT > Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Cheers, > Alan Nikon claim *** 4 *** stops with the VRII on their new 70-300 4,5-5,6 tele. That means, what, -4 stops from 1/450 (1.5 crop) = 1/30th handheld Somehow I don't think so.
Alan Browne - 07 Jan 2007 22:25 GMT > ? "Alan Browne" <alan.browne@Freelunchvideotron.ca> ?????? ??? ??????
>> 2. Advertising: However, I just saw an advert in B&H for a Canon >> lens with IS and a claim of 3 stops. Well, what is the "industry >> standard"? Is there any? (rhetorical).
> Nikon claim *** 4 *** stops with the VRII on their new 70-300 4,5-5,6 > tele. That means, what, -4 stops from 1/450 (1.5 crop) = 1/30th > handheld Somehow I don't think so. I've seen that claim before. I haven't tasted the pudding. The only thing is to test it in real world conditions _and_ to make meaningful size prints.
Cheers, Alan
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David J Taylor - 08 Jan 2007 08:47 GMT []
> Nikon claim *** 4 *** stops with the VRII on their new 70-300 4,5-5,6 > tele. That means, what, -4 stops from 1/450 (1.5 crop) = 1/30th > handheld Somehow I don't think so. What tests have you done to disprove Nikon's claims - or are you guessing?
David
gpaleo - 08 Jan 2007 13:33 GMT > [] >> Nikon claim *** 4 *** stops with the VRII on their new 70-300 4,5-5,6 [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > David Oh, I'd love to have the opportunity to do some tests, however this seems to be a phantom lens here in Greece. No word of its arrival yet.
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 08 Jan 2007 00:27 GMT >Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >Assumption: x stops of effective shooting at speeds slower than "rule of >thumb" for a handheld shot. (shutter speed = 1/focal length). What manufacturer states anything like your assumed rule of thumb? I believe all the claims to be relative, not absolute.
 Signature Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardGRuf.com) http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
Alan Browne - 08 Jan 2007 04:00 GMT Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
>>Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > What manufacturer states anything like your assumed rule of thumb? I > believe all the claims to be relative, not absolute. They state so many stops of advantage. It has to refer to something. That something has to have some meaningful reference to buyers.
"Relative" makes it meaningless. When a manufacturer says the AF will work at -1 EV and another says at +1 EV then I have a basis of comparison. EV means something specific.
If they are saying something like "3 stops" for IS/VR A-S, etc, then what does it reference? Are they all agreed to the same reference? How do they measure? How do they test? Otherwise they can't be compared.
It's just marketing hot air otherwise.
Cheers, Alan
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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 08 Jan 2007 04:38 GMT > If they are saying something like "3 stops" for IS/VR A-S, etc, then > what does it reference? Are they all agreed to the same reference? > How do they measure? How do they test? Otherwise they can't be > compared. > > It's just marketing hot air otherwise. Like they used to say in the good old days when they had real cars, "there's no replacement for displacement" still holds true. Same with lenses, no amount of IS/VR is going to make a lens that can't gather light effectively any better than a good lens that is capable of gathering "3 stops" more of light. Just give me that faster lens without IS/VR and we'll have a shootout and see.
Rita
U-Know-Who - 08 Jan 2007 05:24 GMT >> If they are saying something like "3 stops" for IS/VR A-S, etc, then >> what does it reference? Are they all agreed to the same reference? [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > > Rita With or without a tripod?
Alan Browne - 08 Jan 2007 15:37 GMT >> If they are saying something like "3 stops" for IS/VR A-S, etc, then >> what does it reference? Are they all agreed to the same reference? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > light. Just give me that faster lens without IS/VR and we'll have a > shootout and see. It's not about "more light" it's about vibration/shake etc. The amount of light does not change.
"More light" with a faster lens is less DOF, a consideration for most.
Further, IS/VR is cheaper than 'faster' glass for low light shooting.
Finally, if you have a 70-200 f/2.8 it is hell of a lot cheaper to add IS/VR than to get that lens down to f/1.4 or f/1.0
Cheers, Alan
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David J Taylor - 08 Jan 2007 08:53 GMT []
> "Relative" makes it meaningless. When a manufacturer says the AF will > work at -1 EV and another says at +1 EV then I have a basis of [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cheers, > Alan I do agree that there should be some standardised vibration input to test against.
However, defining that input would be difficult, though, as the shake I will see on a pocket-sized Panasonic camera (with image stabilisation) will be considerably different from the shake I might see when I am tired and trying to hold a heavy DSLR and long-lens combination. It will also be different fully hand-held versus partially stabilised (bracing against a support but not using a tripod).
David
Alan Browne - 08 Jan 2007 15:39 GMT > [] > [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > However, defining that input would be difficult, I don't think so. It simply needs a statistical gathering of shots by ordinary shooters using "good" handholding technique.
> though, as the shake I > will see on a pocket-sized Panasonic camera (with image stabilisation) > will be considerably different from the shake I might see when I am tired > and trying to hold a heavy DSLR and long-lens combination. It will also > be different fully hand-held versus partially stabilised (bracing against > a support but not using a tripod). Certainly, but the first point of reference shoud be hand held shots.
Cheers, Alan
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C J Campbell - 08 Jan 2007 21:16 GMT > I do agree that there should be some standardised vibration input to test > against. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > be different fully hand-held versus partially stabilised (bracing against > a support but not using a tripod). And then you get into the definition of image stabilization. As pointed out on DPreview the other day, some manufacturers (especially on pocket cameras) are simply bumping up the ISO and calling it image stabilization because the shutter speed is shorter. Of course, you get a noisy picture as a result. I have to agree with DPreview that image stabilization that occurs entirely in software, such as bumping up the ISO or averaging the frame or something, should not be called image stabilization. That is so misleading as to be fraudulent, IMHO.
David J Taylor - 09 Jan 2007 09:24 GMT >> I do agree that there should be some standardised vibration input to >> test against. [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > up the ISO or averaging the frame or something, should not be called > image stabilization. That is so misleading as to be fraudulent, IMHO. Yes, fraudulent, I agree.
Perhaps you would need to measure the point-spread-function (or something similar) with and without IS operating, over a fixed shutter opening time.....
Cheers, David
map - 08 Jan 2007 14:16 GMT another detail makes the problem more complex. I can't believe that an anti shake system is as effective at 1/250s than at 1/4s. one will be more precise, the other able to compensate a bigger movement, or a faster movement. I tryed to do some tests with my K100D. they are a lot subjective, so I'll not give numbers, but it the AS system seems to be more effective to produce an almost sharp image at low speed when you'd get a really blured one, than to give a perfectly sharp image at medium speed when you'd get an almost sharp one. so, the efficiency is definitely not a simple number of stops.
Alan Browne - 08 Jan 2007 15:43 GMT > another detail makes the problem more complex. > I can't believe that an anti shake system is as effective at 1/250s than at > 1/4s. It's all about the bandwidth of the correction system. If it is designed to cover 1/250 and has the response to back that up, then there is no reason why it should not work. I don't know the frequency responses of the various systems, but 1/250 does not seem (offhand) like an impossibility by any stretch.
> one will be more precise, the other able to compensate a bigger movement, or > a faster movement. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > sharp one. > so, the efficiency is definitely not a simple number of stops.
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Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 16 Jan 2007 16:45 GMT >They state so many stops of advantage. It has to refer to something. >That something has to have some meaningful reference to buyers. Ok how about: "Regarding 200mm focal length lenses: A photographer taking 70% of his/her pictures without camera shake at 1/125 second shutter speed can use the VR system to achieve the same results at 1/15 second (3 steps slower than 1/125 second: 1/60-1/30-1/15)* " *Effect of VR System varies by photographer.
http://www.nikon.co.jp/main/eng/portfolio/about/technology/nikon_technology/vr_e /index.htm
The newer 4-stop claim is associated with the newer VRII implementation.
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C J Campbell - 08 Jan 2007 21:11 GMT > Just some things that needle me as I see various posts on the subject. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Assumption: x stops of effective shooting at speeds slower than "rule of > thumb" for a handheld shot. (shutter speed = 1/focal length). Kind of an odd coincidence, eh? Yet, surprisingly, it sort of works, at least up to about 200mm. Beyond that, it breaks down rapidly. At least, that is how it works for me. I find it very difficult to get a sharp handheld shot with a 400mm lens at *any* shutter speed.
> I've never made nor seen a "rule-of-thumb" handheld shot that printed > sharp at 8x10 without looking a bit (or worse) soft. So what should the > proper "rule-of-thumb" reference speed actually be? You adjust the rule of thumb to your own preferences, really. No one can decide for you how sharp is sharp enough. Any handheld shot is likely to be softer than one with a tripod. Considered another way, many people complain about the way depth of field markings have disappeared from modern lenses. But those were just rule of thumb guidelines, too. There is an exact focus distance. Anything on either side of that will be softer. Some people want to be told how much softness is acceptable to them, I guess. Others figure it out on their own. Personally, I just use depth of field preview when I am interested.
> Needle 2. Notwithstanding the above, I (and others) have found that > "rule of thumb" speed is too slow once the focal length gets over 135mm > (or so). It is not linear (though it should be), (or we're not blowing > up shorter FL shots to 8x12 where we would see the softness for what it is). So, experience teaches you to modify your rule of thumb.
> Needle 3. In cropped sensors, the "effective" focal length (for the > purpose of image size) is longer. eg: a 50mm lens should use a "rule of > thumb speed" of 1/75 of a second or faster. (Since the blowup ratio of > a cropped sensor to get to the nominal 8x10/8x12 print size is higher). Can't really speak to that. It seems obvious to me.
> The above points should not really bother me (or you) much, as: > 1. IS/VR A-S etc. are all benefits and allow us more shooting latitude, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > with IS and a claim of 3 stops. Well, what is the "industry standard"? > Is there any? (rhetorical). I think the idea is that you will get the same level of sharpness three stops slower with IS than without it. As a practical matter, I think this is conservative. It depends a little bit on how much your shakiness increases as time passes.
Competitive marksmen are very familiar with this concept. Your aiming point is never still; it moves around in a roughly circular area (actually a little wider than it is tall) in a kind of figure 8 pattern centered on the target. For a short period of time this circular area remains a constant size. But as you continue to aim, the circular area will begin to grow. You can reduce its size briefly by holding your breath, but within moments after you begin to hold your breath tiny spasms throughout your body will again increase the circle of error to an extremely large size. This is why you do not hold your breath until the moment you fire -- you need to be already squeezing the trigger. Then you breath again immediately.
Image stabilization keeps the circle of error smaller and of a constant size -- up to a limit. Eventually your body will begin to have small muscle spasms as a reaction to trying to hold still. These spasms will occur sooner and be stronger if you hold your breath, but breathing introduces even greater errors. But think about this -- as long as the circle of error remains constant and the IS is adjusting for that much error, every shot will show pretty much the same degree of sharpness, no matter how long the exposure is. The only limiting factor is how long you can keep your aiming point within the tolerances of the IS. Photography demands, for the purpose of sharpness, movement that can be measured in angstroms. You do not have the same margin of error that you would for a comparatively gigantic bullet. (Tell that to your hunter friends -- good photographers have to be better shots than they are. :-) )
The way this works out in real life is that it seems to me that I can hold my circle of error constant for about 1/8 second. A handheld shot with a VR 400mm lens for me is no worse at 1/8 second than 1/1000 second. Trouble is, either one is pretty atrocious. Good thing I didn't become a brain surgeon.
:-) Beyond 1/8 second it starts getting down to luck; sometimes it is better than others, depending largely on how tired I am.
So that's my take on it. Manufacturers' claims are not really comparable to real stops of improvement. It works differently, and it seems to work a little better than what the manufacturers say it does.
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