Home | Contact Us | FAQ | Search & Site Map | Link to Us
Sign In | Join | Other 45 Sites in Network
PhotoKB Home
Discussion Groups
Digital Photography
Digital PhotoDSLR CamerasZLR CamerasPoint & Shoot Cameras
Film Photography
35 mmLarge FormatMedium formatDarkroomFilm and LabsOther Equipment
Photo Technique
Nature PhotographyPeople PhotographyTechnique General
General Photo Topics
General TopicsAustralian PhotographyUK Photography
DirectoryPhoto Clubs

Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2007

Tip: Looking for answers? Try searching our database.

Tokina 12-24

Thread view: 
Enable EMail Alerts  Start New Thread
Thread rating: 
U-Know-Who - 07 Jan 2007 16:37 GMT
Please advise on what could make these images better. Just the two pictures
of the buildings. Both were taken using a Tokina 12-24mm f/4 Pro DX.

Thanks

http://www.pbase.com/randyc2800/inbox
bmoag - 07 Jan 2007 16:54 GMT
If not a joke:

Keystoning and distortion can be corrected to a great degree using tools in
photoshop, for example cropping with perspective control and the lens
distort filter to correct for barrel distortion.

If you know you will have keystoning in an image make sure there is adequate
room in the frame around your main object to allow for cropping. Also
realize that unless you are perfectly parallel to the subject the image will
be off horizontal axis as well. To some degree this can also be corrected
with the lens distort filter in Photoshop but not that much.
David Ruether - 07 Jan 2007 17:22 GMT
> If not a joke:
>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> for cropping. Also realize that unless you are perfectly parallel to the subject the image will be off horizontal axis as well. To
> some degree this can also be corrected with the lens distort filter in Photoshop but not that much.

I note your first sentence - and the photos look fine to me also...;-)
"Corrections" are not necessarily needed - perspective effects
(and even lens barrel distortion) can serve the purposes of an image.
--
David Ruether
DRuether@twcny.rr.com
rpn1@cornell.edu
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
U-Know-Who - 07 Jan 2007 17:39 GMT
> If not a joke:
>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> image will be off horizontal axis as well. To some degree this can also be
> corrected with the lens distort filter in Photoshop but not that much.

I knew with this WA lens that it would keystone. That's not what I meant to
improve. What I would like to improve is the sharpness, if possible. Or, are
these acceptably sharp? This is my first "real" WA lens, as the Canon
17-40f/4L did not give me a real WA on a 1.6 factor.
David Ruether - 07 Jan 2007 17:56 GMT
> I knew with this WA lens [12-24 Tokina] would keystone. That's not what I meant to improve. What I would like to improve is the
> sharpness, if possible. Or, are these acceptably sharp? This is my first "real" WA lens, as the Canon 17-40f/4L did not give me a
> real WA on a 1.6 factor.

If you are not satisfied with the sharpness (it is hard to tell from
the web image how really sharp it is or isn't, or how it would look
printed), but if you would like it to look sharper, you can use an
unsharp mask, experimenting with settings for maximum sharpening
with least damage to the image. I find it useful to mask out the
sky (and maybe contrasty diagonal lines after the first stage of
sharpening - which may be a gentle one...) using a slight centered
feather on the mask edge. Since most wide angles are somewhat
soft in the corners, progressive repeated widely-feathered sharpening
can be done there to even up the sense of sharpness across the
frame bottom and/or other edges.
--
David Ruether
DRuether@twcny.rr.com
rpn1@cornell.edu
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
David Ruether - 07 Jan 2007 19:58 GMT
>> I knew with this WA lens [12-24 Tokina] would keystone. That's not what I meant to improve. What I would like to improve is the
>> sharpness, if possible. Or, are these acceptably sharp? This is my first "real" WA lens, as the Canon 17-40f/4L did not give me a
>> real WA on a 1.6 factor.

> If you are not satisfied with the sharpness (it is hard to tell from
> the web image how really sharp it is or isn't, or how it would look
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> --
> David Ruether

Ah, I, too just found the full-sized version of the building at
http://www.pbase.com/randyc2800/image/72733173/original
It looks quite sharp (maybe oversharpened, judging from the
sky texture and roof edges here and there - but overall it looks
good). I would look into masking out areas you don't want
oversharpened if this was done in the photo editor instead
of the camera...
--
David Ruether
DRuether@twcny.rr.com
rpn1@cornell.edu
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
per - 07 Jan 2007 18:06 GMT
> What I would like to improve is the sharpness, if possible. Or, are these
> acceptably sharp? This is my first "real" WA lens, as the Canon 17-40f/4L
> did not give me a real WA on a 1.6 factor.

What I feel is strange is the pixelization in the sky. The pics are
photographed at 100 Iso and these should be no such visible grain or noise.
Maybe it is the jpg compression in the camera? Try RAW-shooting and saving
to jpg at different grades of compression in Photoshop. Otherwise, I think
these pics show great sharpness and color saturation.
/per
Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 07 Jan 2007 18:30 GMT
>I knew with this WA lens that it would keystone. That's not what I meant to
>improve. What I would like to improve is the sharpness, if possible. Or, are
>these acceptably sharp? This is my first "real" WA lens, as the Canon
>17-40f/4L did not give me a real WA on a 1.6 factor.

It is not possible to comment on the sharpness of the lens as all you have
posted are resized images with absolutely no information in regard to the
settings and work flow used to process the images.
Signature

Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardGRuf.com)
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html

Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 07 Jan 2007 18:39 GMT
>>I knew with this WA lens that it would keystone. That's not what I meant to
>>improve. What I would like to improve is the sharpness, if possible. Or, are
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>posted are resized images with absolutely no information in regard to the
>settings and work flow used to process the images.

Oops. The full size is there with some exif info. Now are these in camera
jpegs or raw? If in camera jpg, what sharpness setting? If raw what work
flow and sharpening did you perform?
Signature

Ed Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardGRuf.com)
http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html

default - 07 Jan 2007 20:10 GMT
> I knew with this WA lens that it would keystone. That's not what I meant
> to improve. What I would like to improve is the sharpness, if possible.
> Or, are these acceptably sharp? This is my first "real" WA lens, as the
> Canon 17-40f/4L did not give me a real WA on a 1.6 factor.

Firstly the pictures are acceptably sharp for nearly any purpose unless you
plan to print them very large.  After resizing down to whatever size is
needed, they will be very sharp if you do it right.  If you really want
super sharp looking pictures that can be maximally enlarged, there are a
some things you could do.

1. The original pictures are actually oversharpened which is trading real
detail for harsher edges.  Save sharpening for the last step after resizing
for final use.  This will preserve the maximum amount of detail and then
only sharpen the parts of the picture that need it.  Don't sharpen the out
of focus areas or the blue skies as that just adds visible noise and even
increases the file size.

2. For the three building pictures, you had bright light available, ISO 100
would have been fine on all three yet one is at ISO400 and another at 250.
This is needlessly increasing the noise which affects how sharp the image
appears.  You would have still had good shutter speeds even at 100 ISO.
This would have collected more light and lead to a smooth and sharp image
without as much grain.  By all means don't be afraid to crank up the ISO
when needed, even at 1600 the camera takes great pictures, but if you really
want maximum sharpness or enlargibility, then use 100 when you can.

3. The other thing is that you stopped down too far on the insurance company
building.  A 12mm lens has huge depth of field. F/20 is too small of an
aperture if you really were after maximum sharpness.  You could have got
away with f/11 or f/16.  The other two were at f/11 and f/13 but f/8 would
probably have been fine for those.  Too small of an aperture causes
diffraction, especially at short focal lengths where the aperture diameter
gets very small.  There's nothing wrong with stopping down really far, and
you should when needed, but it will affect the sharpness some.  You can get
away with stopping down less by choosing your focus distance more carefully
and putting the available depth of field where you want it.  For the two
smaller buildings, you have lots of sky in the picture.  If you had leveled
the camera a bit more and zoomed wider, then the plane of best focus could
be closer to vertical and a larger aperture could have been used as less
depth of field would be needed.

4. Finally your lens has a little bit of lateral chromatic aberration
visible.  This is where each colour channel has a slightly different
magnification and gives you the colour fringing on high contrast edges.
This is easy to correct in Photoshop especially if you shot the image RAW.
If it was a jpg, Photoshop can still fix it with the lens distortion filter
although not quite as well.  Correcting this will improve the image quality
and the apparent sharpness.

5. Take a few pictures of each, try different compositions to find the one
you like.  There is nothing wrong with keystoning as that is the perspective
when looking up, but sometimes it looks better to level the camera and can
allow a sharper image too due to reduced depth of field requirements.  The
one you took at 24mm could have been wider but with a level camera.  If that
puts too much street in front of the building or too much to the sides, then
crop the final image.  You have lots of megapixels to use.
Charles Gillen - 08 Jan 2007 01:12 GMT
> 3. The other thing is that you stopped down too far

My thought precisely! The sharpness of extreme wide-angle lenses will
suffer when you stop down smaller than the optimum aperture... which you
should experiment to find out.  You have DOF to burn, and don't need to
stop down just for its sake.

Quality lenses that are fairly fast (and F/2.8 counts as fairly fast on a
DSLR, are usually optimized to get as sharp as possible at the faster
apertures... I imagine your lens might peak out at F/5.8 or F/8; stopping
down beyond that at the landscape subject distances you used does more
harm than good.  I think my Leica F/2 Summicron peaked at F/4, and that
was back in the late 1950s.

Put the lens on a sturdy tripod and shoot an indoor test at every
aperture... you'll soon realize going beyond F/11 is not wise if you can
avoid it.  

Signature

Anti-Spam address: my last name at his dot com
Charles Gillen -- Reston, Virginia, USA

 
Sign In
Join
My Latest Posts
My Monitored Threads
My Blog
My Photo Gallery
My Profile
My Homepage

Start New Thread
Enable EMail Alerts
Rate this Thread



©2009 Advenet LLC   Privacy Policy - Terms of Use
This website includes both content owned or controlled by Advenet as well as content owned or controlled by third parties.