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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007

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Build quality?

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Charles Schuler - 03 Jan 2007 01:23 GMT
This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out there,
and is overused, in my humble opinion.

I bring this up because I spent hours yesterday looking for information
about Canon 50 mm lenses.  Googling turned up lots of reviews and posts and
blogs that referred to "build quality."  None of the references provided any
meaningful information about what build quality actually means.

So, I got to thinking about "build quality" in general.  What is it?

1/ Heft
2/ Finish
3/ Smoothness (the feel one gets when using it)
4/ Material (Please; no plastics!)
5/ Repeatability
6/ Ruggedness
7/ Seals

I know about tolerances, by the way ... but the posts never mention this
issue;  although some do mention a "good copy" (another vague and shaky
term).

Just a thought.  I think I will ignore "build quality" unless there is
additional information.
RichA - 03 Jan 2007 01:52 GMT
> This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out there,
> and is overused, in my humble opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> 1/ Heft
Size versus weight.  Good balance with a lens larger than a tiny
plastic kit lens.

> 2/ Finish
Not crappy looking (like Sony or Canon's entry cameras)

> 3/ Smoothness (the feel one gets when using it)
Nikon by a MILE.

> 4/ Material (Please; no plastics!)
Nikon, Canon in the higher end.

> 5/ Repeatability  ?

> 6/ Ruggedness
Nikon

> 7/ Seals
Nikon, Pentax, Canon all similar.  I don't think any of them exceed the
first level of equipment sealing.  Though of course some P&S cameras
are actually waterproof.
Charles Gillen - 03 Jan 2007 02:31 GMT
> So, I got to thinking about "build quality" in general.  What is it?

I developed a quick rule of thumb (with tongue in cheek) during a phase of
collecting cheap Chinese portable multi-band radios:

Squeeze it hard.  If anything squeeks or "gives" a bit, it fails.

OTOH if it feels like a solid brick (even though made of plastic), it
passes.

If your sensitive fingertips had ever palpitated a Leica, Rollei, Contax,
Canon or Nikon built 40 or 50 years ago, you wouldn't need to wonder how to
quantify build quality... your fingers would recognize it  :^)

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Charles Gillen -- Reston, Virginia, USA

jeremy - 03 Jan 2007 02:38 GMT
> This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out there,
> and is overused, in my humble opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Just a thought.  I think I will ignore "build quality" unless there is
> additional information.

If you check amazon.com for Canon's normal 50mm lens, you will find several
user reviews that have expressed fear that the cheap build quality would be
unreliable over the long term.

Brian Bower, the British landscape photographer, brought the subject of
build quality up in his book "Lens, Light and Landscape."  He indicated that
he preferred Leica rangefinders and Leica SLRs, because their lenses could
stand up to intense use, in difficult environments, and not fail.  He noted
that one of his Leica SLR zoom lenses was in daily use and that the zoom
mechanism was still tight after 10 years, unlike lesser-quality lenses that
were prone to not keeping focal length because the internal mechanisms
loosened with hard use.

He noted that he could sell the used Leica gear for premium prices, while
used "no-name" stuff commanded hardly any price at all on the used market.
Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad have been commanding higher prices used than
they cost when they were new, essentially making their use free to the
initial purchaser.

He said that the Leica lenses were more cost effective because there was a
cost associated with failed equipment, and that the high initial cost of
Leica gear was offset by its reliability over the long term.  While I would
never pay Leica prices, I can understand how their gear can be
cost-effective tools for professionals that rely upon them to earn their
livings.

So, to respond to your question, I would suggest that build quality might
not be terribly important to the casual amateur user, but might be an
essential factor for anyone for whom the reliability of the gear is
essential.  Only you can assess whether you can accept lesser build quality
in exchange for lower up-front costs.

We are slowly becoming acclimated to accepting the notion of disposable gear
(great for the manufacturers) and it may be that one has no use for a 10
year-old lens.  So maybe low build quality may be perfectly acceptable for a
piece of equipment with an expected low service life.
Charles Schuler - 03 Jan 2007 03:05 GMT
> If you check amazon.com for Canon's normal 50mm lens, you will find
> several user reviews that have expressed fear that the cheap build quality
> would be unreliable over the long term.

There are a multitude of reviews and if you read enough of them you will
find wildly varying opinions.

> Brian Bower, the British landscape photographer, brought the subject of
> build quality up in his book "Lens, Light and Landscape."  He indicated
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> lenses that were prone to not keeping focal length because the internal
> mechanisms loosened with hard use.

Yes, but that is anecdotal.  He likes Leica and I like Canon.

> He noted that he could sell the used Leica gear for premium prices, while
> used "no-name" stuff commanded hardly any price at all on the used market.
> Zeiss lenses for Hasselblad have been commanding higher prices used than
> they cost when they were new, essentially making their use free to the
> initial purchaser.

The second-hand market value is a different issue.  I would buy a Toyota
automobile if resale was the only issue (or a Honda).  I buy American cars
because they are almost as good as German and Japanese cars and I can get a
better deal and better service.

> He said that the Leica lenses were more cost effective because there was a
> cost associated with failed equipment, and that the high initial cost of
> Leica gear was offset by its reliability over the long term.  While I
> would never pay Leica prices, I can understand how their gear can be
> cost-effective tools for professionals that rely upon them to earn their
> livings.

Pay up front and pay less later ... works only some of the time.

> So, to respond to your question, I would suggest that build quality might
> not be terribly important to the casual amateur user, but might be an
> essential factor for anyone for whom the reliability of the gear is
> essential.  Only you can assess whether you can accept lesser build
> quality in exchange for lower up-front costs.

But, my post was about the vagueness of the term "build quality."

> We are slowly becoming acclimated to accepting the notion of disposable
> gear (great for the manufacturers) and it may be that one has no use for a
> 10 year-old lens.  So maybe low build quality may be perfectly acceptable
> for a piece of equipment with an expected low service life.

Again, what does "build quality" actually mean?  Are you suggesting that
cost is the measure?  I have difficulty equating cost with quality.  It does
not always work out that way.  Bose products are a prime example
(overpriced).

Thanks for your reply ... I don't mean to be contentious.
BoomBoom - 03 Jan 2007 03:43 GMT
> But, my post was about the vagueness of the term "build quality."

  I can answer in terms of the Canon 50mm lenses, simply go to a camera
store and handle Canon's 50mm f1.8 lens and it's f1.4 sibling. The f1.8
looks cheap, feels cheap, and is cheap. I don't own it's f1.4 sibling
and haven't handled it, but I understand it to be comparable in quality
to the 85mm f1.8 that I do own. The 85mm is metal, and looks and feels
like a "quality" lens. I'm not just talking about it being metal vs
plastic, the overall build quality just looks and feels better.
  That said, I love the little Canon 50mm f1.8, it's inexpensive, sharp
as a tack, and extremely lightweight. And for about $100 I can replace
it easily several times and still come in under the cost of a single
50mm f1.4.
  What does this mean to you? Well if you want to look like a pro using
pro equipment, buy the f1.4 lens with the better build quality (bring
lots of money). If you want a great value and don't care if it doesn't
look like your equipment cost you a small fortune, buy the f1.8.
  Just my opinion, others' opinions may vary.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 08 Jan 2007 12:38 GMT
>    That said, I love the little Canon 50mm f1.8, it's inexpensive, sharp
> as a tack, and extremely lightweight. And for about $100 I can replace
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> pro equipment, buy the f1.4 lens with the better build quality (bring
> lots of money).

If you want to bring lots of money, there's the f/1.2 L (or even
f/1.0 L --- a specialist lens) at your service.  Add a 1D Mark
II N or someting, stir well.

> If you want a great value and don't care if it doesn't
> look like your equipment cost you a small fortune, buy the f1.8.

If enjoying to use the lens and/or manual focus is one of
your needs, the f/1.8 isn't up to it.

-Wolfgang
Jon B - 10 Jan 2007 16:33 GMT
> But, my post was about the vagueness of the term "build quality."

That is because build quality is subjective.

To use the Canon 50mm f1.8 as an example, some people will have handled
much better lenses (50mm mk1, 50mm f1.4, 17-40L etc etc) and criticise
it for its sheer flimsiness, some will recognise it is a cheap lens, and
say for the price, the build it good, others will never have handled
anything better like the kit lens and think it is great.

Just exactly the same as people comment on the image quality too...
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Jon B
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<http://www.bramley-computers.co.uk/> Apple Laptop Repairs.

jeremy - 10 Jan 2007 21:31 GMT
>> But, my post was about the vagueness of the term "build quality."
>>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Just exactly the same as people comment on the image quality too...

I remember a time, about 3 decades back, when cameras and lenses were
available in only a single build quality.

Then Nikon divided their wares into Professional Products and Amateur
Products (or, whatever they called it).  Perhaps it was designed to provide
consumers with a low-cost alternative to rapidly rising prices.  Just about
every other manufacturer soon followed suit.
Not Disclosed - 03 Jan 2007 04:22 GMT
> 4/ Material (Please; no plastics!)

Yet body armour is plastics (Kevlar) and ceramics
Charles Schuler - 03 Jan 2007 22:04 GMT
>> 4/ Material (Please; no plastics!)
>
> Yet body armour is plastics (Kevlar) and ceramics

I know ... that was a snide remark since there have been so many
anti-plastic posts here.
C J Campbell - 08 Jan 2007 14:07 GMT
>>> 4/ Material (Please; no plastics!)
>>
>> Yet body armour is plastics (Kevlar) and ceramics
>
> I know ... that was a snide remark since there have been so many
> anti-plastic posts here.

They only come from one person. Apparently plastic gives him a rash.
Sheldon - 03 Jan 2007 04:34 GMT
> This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out there,
> and is overused, in my humble opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Just a thought.  I think I will ignore "build quality" unless there is
> additional information.

IMHO, I think "build quality" has more to do with professional use than
amateur use.  Many users take very good care of their cameras, and they will
stay clean and last a long time.  Most pros, while they care for their
equipment, really abuse their cameras.  Look at all the older Nikon film
cameras that look like they've been dragged behind a car, yet work
perfectly.  I used to work for AP, and my boss kept all his equipment in the
trunk of his car, no cases, compartments or restraints.

Again, IMHO, I think a camera is much like a guitar to a guitarist.  As soon
as you pick one up you know right away whether it's for you.  It just feels
right and plays right.
jeremy - 03 Jan 2007 14:56 GMT
>> This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out
>> there, and is overused, in my humble opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
> soon as you pick one up you know right away whether it's for you.  It just
> feels right and plays right.

I'm admittedly old-fashioned about such matters, but I have a problem paying
big bucks for cheaply-built equipment that will not stand up to normal use.
One misstep and you can crack a lens barrel.

There sill come a point where DSLRs will have little in the way of room for
improvement, and what do we do then?  Are we expected to keep on replacing
everything every three years, "ad infinitum?"  It is one thing to be on an
upgrade curve while there are significant improvements to be had, but the
improvements in image quality are becoming more marginal as time goes on.
The same thing happened with VCRs--first they had low-fidelity sound, then
they went to near-CD sound quality.  They introduced HQ picture quality.
They introduced automatic clock setting.  They ended up developing the
product as much as they could, and if it were not for DVD-R development
would have come to a halt, and we'd all be buying VCRs at a price of $59.95
with all the latest features.

We saw a similar situation with film cameras.  Once the F6 was introduced,
what more was there that could have been added that would have motivated
photographers to pony up more money to upgrade to a newer model?

So DSLRs are the hot item these days.  I remember when computers were hot,
and when Bag phones were replaced by those Motorola analog handsets, and
later when those Motorola phones were replaced by digital models, and later
when digital voice phones were eclipsed by phones with Internet
connectivity, and now to where they even let you watch TV.  The improvements
taper off, the price drops, and then the electronics industry resumes the
hunt for the next hot product.

Only one problem with cameras being hot products: there comes a point where
consumers won't care about further improvements, because they will have
already been overwhelmed with what they currently have.  Advanced
photography is not a mass-appeal hobby, and it never was one.  Among
amateurs there were, broadly speaking, two types of user: the
Instamatic/Brownie/126/Disk Film consumer--who just wanted to snap a few
pictures of the July 4th picnic and Christmas presents every year.  Then
there were the more advanced amateurs, that spent some bucks in their quest
to produce better and perhaps more artistic images.  Today's consumer is
buying digital cameras (30 million of them last year alone) because in part
of the herd mentality.  Everybody else is getting one, just like everybody
else once bought Camcorders and, later, palmcorders.  And where are all
those users now?  We didn't see a new generation of filmmakers arise out of
all those videocam sales and I predict that we will not see a ton of new
artistic and innovative photographers arise out of these DSLR sales, either.
A lot of those DSLR buyers will still pull their toys off the shelf and USE
them only for July 4th picnics, school events and the Christmas holidays.

Not that there is anything wrong with those folks, but they already have
more functionality than they need with their present digital cameras.  I do
not expect them to be lined up at Best Buy every time the camera industry
releases a new and improved model.

Perhaps manufacturers will rely upon product failure to spur consumers to
replace their aging gear?  They sure won't be getting their cameras
REPAIRED.  And the replacement cost will probably be less than the cost of a
one-time repair of their existing equipment.  After all, the camera makers
have to keep those assembly lines in Vietnam moving at full speed, right?
DHB - 07 Jan 2007 16:43 GMT
>>> This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out
>>> there, and is overused, in my humble opinion.
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>big bucks for cheaply-built equipment that will not stand up to normal use.
>One misstep and you can crack a lens barrel.

    We agree completely here, I too "have a problem paying big
bucks for cheaply-built equipment that will not stand up to normal
use."  However the Canon 50mm f1.8 lens is far from "big bucks"!
FWIW, I actually own 2 of them, 1 each for my 300D & 30D DSLRs.  Why
2, because I loan my 300D to friends & when I do I include this lens &
the 18-55mm kit lens with it.  These each have their place.  The 50mm
f1.8 is a good low light lens & great for portraits (80mm effective
FOV) on a 1.6x crop factored DSLR.  The kit lens is a reasonably good
lens to use while they decide if they want to bother with a DSLR or
not.  If they do decide that a DSLR is worth it to them, they @ least
have a little bit of experience with a DSLR & should have some idea of
what they like & dislike about it, which hopefully will help them
decide what features *they* want & don't want in a DSLR.

<Snip>

> Today's consumer is buying digital cameras (30 million of them last year alone)
> because in part of the herd mentality.  Everybody else is getting one, just
> like everybody else once bought Camcorders and, later, palmcorders.
> And where are all those users now?

<snip>

    If they were wise or thoughtful enough, they saved most of
what they recorded to share with future generations.  In this same way
look @ some of the crazy pictures young people (Children to young
adults) are taking pictures of now that we never would have considered
doing with film cameras.  If they keep most of them (even if only in
digital form & never printed) they will have a rich potential treasure
trove of visual memories to remind them of family & friends long gone.
They will also be able to pass these on to future generations,
including those fun spirited video clips taken with P&S cameras.

    Getting back on topic.  As another poster said, 1 can buy
several 50mm f1.8 lenses for the price of just 1 50mm f1.4 lens.
Optically they are *both* very good lenses, with the f1.8 being both
louder & slower, (Pun intended) no USM AF on the f1.8 lens.  That
being said, for "normal" or "consumer" use I think the f1.8 is fine.
If 1 feels it may not hold up for their use & feels the price
difference is worth it to them, then they should buy the f1.4 lens.  

    However the 50mm f1.8 meets my optical needs & I am willing to
chance it's construction durability considering both the price of the
lens & cost to replace it if it fails due to build quality.  As for
looks of the lens, I don't care about that & in fact use a 52mm, 1.5"
long filter spacer tube as a make-shift lens hood.  It works fine,
looks *very strange* but with no vignetting thanks to the 1.6x crop
factor of my DSLRs.

    Respectfully,  DHB
       

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
m II - 07 Jan 2007 06:59 GMT
> Just a thought.  I think I will ignore "build quality" unless there is
> additional information.

In some cases, build quality actually means something.

http://photosig.pcphotoreview.com/mfr/pentax/35mm-primes/PRD_142961_3111crx.aspx

or:

http://snipurl.com/16sza

These are part of the wonderful 'limited' family of lenses from Pentax.

mike
Laurence Payne - 08 Jan 2007 20:25 GMT
>In some cases, build quality actually means something.
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
>These are part of the wonderful 'limited' family of lenses from Pentax.

And, apparently, have "Creamy bokeh."     Can anyone translate?
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 08 Jan 2007 12:34 GMT
> I bring this up because I spent hours yesterday looking for information
> about Canon 50 mm lenses.  Googling turned up lots of reviews and posts and
> blogs that referred to "build quality."  None of the references provided any
> meaningful information about what build quality actually means.

Oh, that's easy.  The f/1 and f/1.2 are L lenses and build
that way.  The f/1.4 isn't, but feels solid, nice to work
with.  The f/1.8 has the cheap-plastic feel and a poor excuse
for a focussing ring, no distance information and not so nice
a bokeh (though I hear, the optic *is* good, and the
quality/Price is unsurpassed).

> So, I got to thinking about "build quality" in general.  What is it?

An L lens you can use as a club (if it's a tele) or as a
replacement for a cobblestone to throw, and it'll keep on working
(unless you break some lens against a sharp corner or such).  At
least they feel that way.  (Oh, and they are sealed and so
on.  L stands for "Luxury", and they mean it.)

An "ordinary" lens you wouldn't want to treat that way, but
it'll take most everything a reasonable user will put it
through.

A cheaply built lens, like the f/1.8, you wouldn't want to
bang accidentally against a corner or even drop it a couple
of feet, fearing you'd be collecting plastic halves and glass
elements thereafter.

> I know about tolerances, by the way ... but the posts never mention this
> issue;  although some do mention a "good copy" (another vague and shaky
> term).

A more precise term: "Lottery winnings".

> Just a thought.  I think I will ignore "build quality" unless there is
> additional information.

Get the lens into your hands and _feel_ it.  Is it a joy to
handle, or a pain?  Wobbly or steady?

-Wolfgang
Charles Schuler - 10 Jan 2007 23:12 GMT
> This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out there,
> and is overused, in my humble opinion.

I appreciate all of the responses and will go with my gut feeling.  I will
ignore anecdotal comments about build quality, because they are mostly of no
merit or value (in my opinion).
RichA - 11 Jan 2007 02:30 GMT
> > This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out there,
> > and is overused, in my humble opinion.
>
> I appreciate all of the responses and will go with my gut feeling.  I will
> ignore anecdotal comments about build quality, because they are mostly of no
> merit or value (in my opinion).

Blindly accepting horrible quality is an American trait.  The dollar is
EVERYTHING, quality counts for next to nothing.  The driver for this is
the genetic predisposition to have "instant gratification."  For e.g.,
while a European may save his money for a year and spend $2000 on a
mountain bike, Joe Sixpack American runs down to the local cut-rate
sports store and spends
$200-$300 because they just "haaaaavvvvee" to have the product RIGHT
NOW!  A nation that values quality that little is a great target for a
huge big box store that gets 90% of it's product from China...otherwise
know as Walmart.
Skip - 11 Jan 2007 03:20 GMT
>> > This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out
>> > there,
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> huge big box store that gets 90% of it's product from China...otherwise
> know as Walmart.

Rich, before you start making blanket statements, especially exaggerated
ones, it's best to check one's target audience.  A lot of Europeans will do
the same thing as any American, and vice versa.  Some of us will save to buy
the best, and some of them will jump at what they can afford.  And, too,
some people just can't afford better than WalMart, or have to stretch their
budget to buy from Target.  Not everyone lives in your version of a world of
privilege.
Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
Netherlanders...
On the other hand, there's guys like you, who can't wait to castigate others
on subjects about which you either know little, or care about less.  Such a
sad life you must lead.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

RichA - 11 Jan 2007 04:58 GMT
> >> > This is one of the least objective and least useful descriptors out
> >> > there,
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> ones, it's best to check one's target audience.  A lot of Europeans will do
> the same thing as any American, and vice versa.

They drove Walmart OUT of Germany.

Some of us will save to buy
> the best, and some of them will jump at what they can afford.  And, too,
> some people just can't afford better than WalMart, or have to stretch their
> budget to buy from Target.

Makes me wonder how they got along without those two stores.

>Not everyone lives in your version of a world of
> privilege.

There is nothing privileged about waiting to buy something decent
rather than blowing
money on junk.  No one says they need to go out and somehow buy a
1DsMkII.  Thankfully, the reach to quality is much nearer and less dear
than that.

> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
> Netherlanders...
> On the other hand, there's guys like you, who can't wait to castigate others
> on subjects about which you either know little, or care about less.  Such a
> sad life you must lead.

Pot, kettle, etc.

Lets say the base level DSLR was the Canon 30D.  So some people who
would have spent
$700 on a Rebel XT end up waiting a while longer to get a FAR superior
camera.  Or (heaven forbid) they actually give up something else to
obtain it.  At what point does the World fall into ruin because of
this?

There is a persistent myth circulating today that families need two
earners to survive.  Some do, as always, but the basic middle class
person has two earners today because they have things they didn't have
years ago.  Like $100/month cable TV bills, $100/month cell phone
bills, 13 year old kids who have to have $300 iPods, computers, etc.
The percentage of disposible income now allocated for personal
electronics is about 10x what it was 30 years ago.  So, your choices
are simple, have it all and have it all mediocre, or have less and
maybe have better quality.
-Rich
Skip - 11 Jan 2007 14:07 GMT
>> > Blindly accepting horrible quality is an American trait.  The dollar is
>> > EVERYTHING, quality counts for next to nothing.  The driver for this is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> They drove Walmart OUT of Germany.

Only because of a combination of nationalism and better established
retailers.

> Some of us will save to buy
>> the best, and some of them will jump at what they can afford.  And, too,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Makes me wonder how they got along without those two stores.

Not as well.  Those marketers brought a level of retail merchandise to a
group of people who could not afford things at the price a ma and pa store
had to charge to maintain margins.  Unfortunately, those same retailers
drove the ma and pa stores into the ground, plus Sears, Montgomery Wards and
nearly Kmart (now the proud owner of Sears), none of whom offered the
quality of merchandise at a competitive price.

>>Not everyone lives in your version of a world of
>> privilege.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> 1DsMkII.  Thankfully, the reach to quality is much nearer and less dear
> than that.

It is previleged to be able to afford to buy what you want, rather than what
you can afford.

>> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
>> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> obtain it.  At what point does the World fall into ruin because of
> this?

What about the people who have to stretch their budgets, wait "a while
longer" or give up something to get a Rebel XT?  Not everyone can afford the
better item, no matter what.  Good lord, compare the price of a film SLR to
the current prices of digital SLRs.  I wonder why anyone buys DSLRs except
those who absolutely need them, which would eliminate the market for the
Rebel XT/D40/D50 and maybe event the higher lineups like the 30D and D200.

> There is a persistent myth circulating today that families need two
> earners to survive.  Some do, as always, but the basic middle class
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> maybe have better quality.
> -Rich

I can't argue that last point, it's true, at least in most areas.  But to
have any quality of life in San Diego, for instance, a minimum income of
about $40,000 is supposedly required, poverty level is $28,000.  At $12 an
hour, even, it takes two to get along around here.
There's a third choice, have most of it, and have it good.
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Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

ink - 11 Jan 2007 09:04 GMT
<SNIP>
> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
> Netherlanders...

I dated a Dutch girl for a while, and believe me, they DO have their
faults...

SCNR ;-)

Cheers,
ink
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 11 Jan 2007 20:23 GMT
> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
> Netherlanders...

They are anything but prudish, have a real sexual education (and
don't think celibacy is THE option, either) ... and happen to
have the lowest percentage of teenage mothers in all of Europe,
about 1/10 of what the USA has to cope with.

That obviously is a fault, since these facts don't happen to match
the theories of those advancing certain methods in the US of A,
so an invasion is in order.

-Wolfgang
jeremy - 12 Jan 2007 00:37 GMT
>> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
>> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> -Wolfgang

Yes, but I hear that they practice involuntary euthanasia on people deemed
to having medical conditions that make their lives not worth living.

Very frightening, and more associated with Nazism than with enlightenment.
Imagine having your right to live being decided by others!
Bart van der Wolf - 06 Feb 2007 13:11 GMT
SNIP
> Yes, but I hear that they practice involuntary euthanasia on people
> deemed to having medical conditions that make their lives not worth
> living.

You've heard wrong, unless you believe some of the misinformation
being spread by some lobbyists in the USA that I've heard on this
topic. One can only hope they are misinformed, rather than having an
agenda.

It's more likely something to do with ethics versus dogma, that we
allow people to choose (in a carefully layed out and documented
procedure) between prolonged unbearable suffering which unavoidably
leads to death, and a more humane end of their life (carried out under
medical supervision). There's nothing involuntary about it, it's a
personal documented choice, and doctors can also refuse to cooperate.

--
Bart
jeremy - 06 Feb 2007 14:10 GMT
> SNIP
>> Yes, but I hear that they practice involuntary euthanasia on people
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> --
> Bart

I heard that they euthanize deformed babies--with NO input needed from the
parents.

They've opened Pandora's Box, and now there are bound to be abuses.

No matter.  The Netherlands are not on my short list for vacationing.
J. Clarke - 06 Feb 2007 14:59 GMT
>> SNIP
>>> Yes, but I hear that they practice involuntary euthanasia on people
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>I heard that they euthanize deformed babies--with NO input needed from the
>parents.

You need to find some different sources.  It's not "deformed babies",
it's babies who have no hope of survival and are going to suffer until
they die.

And the practice is widespread, they do it in the US too.  It's just
that the Dutch have brought it out of the closet and put regulations
and review procedures in place so it's not a unilateral decision
buried in medical jargon like it is in the US.

>They've opened Pandora's Box, and now there are bound to be abuses.
>
>No matter.  The Netherlands are not on my short list for vacationing.

I am sure that that is a great comfort to the Dutch.
Skip - 12 Jan 2007 04:31 GMT
>> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
>> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> -Wolfgang

Y'know, that's an invasion I just might go along with, if not join in on!
<G>

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Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

John McWilliams - 12 Jan 2007 23:31 GMT
>>> Sure, Americans aren't perfect, but I've not seen any other nation that
>>> doesn't have its faults.  Except maybe the Dutch, but I don't know many
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Y'know, that's an invasion I just might go along with, if not join in on!
> <G>

I was rather hoping the Dutch would invade over here, and teach a few
lessons along the way.

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john mcwilliams

Bart van der Wolf - 06 Feb 2007 13:43 GMT
> SNIP
> I was rather hoping the Dutch would invade over here, and teach a
> few lessons along the way.

Nah, our ancestors were only too happy to sell New York to the
Brittish:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Stuyvesant> .
We try to avoid making the same mistake (of bringing some reform)
again ;-).

Signature

Bart

John McWilliams - 06 Feb 2007 16:05 GMT
>> SNIP
>> I was rather hoping the Dutch would invade over here, and teach a few
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> We try to avoid making the same mistake (of bringing some reform) again
> ;-).

Very interesting bits on him. I worked on Wall Street, avoided
Bedford-Stuyvesant area, and knew of the Bayards, but didn't know it was
his wife's family.

But didn't see much on the "sales price"......

Signature

john mcwilliams

Bart van der Wolf - 07 Feb 2007 00:31 GMT
>>> SNIP
>>> I was rather hoping the Dutch would invade over here, and teach a
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Bedford-Stuyvesant area, and knew of the Bayards, but didn't know it
> was his wife's family.

There are many more names in that area of the USA that originate from
that period
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Netherland#Legacy>

> But didn't see much on the "sales price"......

Well it apparently was more a sort of negotiation for the people
living there, allowing them to keep their property and securing
tolerance and religious freedom for all inhabitants. There were a lot
of things that were just let go unsettled, because there were other
(bigger) interests to defend (Suriname in the West had to be defended
from the English, and Indonesia in the East had to be defended from
the Portugese and Spanish).

And there was another attempt to regain control being planned a few
years later..., which failed after the Netherlands also got into war
back home with the English, the French and Germans at the same time,
which proved to be too much to handle.

Signature

Bart

Bart van der Wolf - 06 Feb 2007 13:21 GMT
> Y'know, that's an invasion I just might go along with, if not join
> in on! <G>

In fact the "The Hague Invasion Act"
<http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/08/aspa080302.htm> was signed by G.W.
Bush in 2002, perhaps some alterior motives were behind it? ;-)

Signature

Bart

 
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