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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006

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Depth of Field

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alertjean@rediffmail.com - 22 Dec 2006 08:36 GMT
I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
same in both

An image shot  with  a Tamron 18-200 F3.5 - F6.3 at F4.5 100mm (29-320
on a Rebel XT)
to  one taken with a Fuji S5500  5.7-57 at F4.5 24mm (37 - 370 35mm
equivalent)

Let me know ...

regards
Jean
bob - 22 Dec 2006 09:39 GMT
do you mean bokeh   ?
the depth of  field  is  the same at the SAME F number and SAME focal length
( this is the real focal lenth not some 1.5 x equavalent)

>I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> regards
> Jean
dylan - 22 Dec 2006 10:12 GMT
> do you mean bokeh   ?
> the depth of  field  is  the same at the SAME F number and SAME focal length
> ( this is the real focal lenth not some 1.5 x equavalent)

The DOF does change between a 35mm and a DSLR with a smaller
sensor..http://www.dofmaster.com/dof_dslr.html but as you say not by
1.5x
bob - 22 Dec 2006 10:33 GMT
Sensor size has got nothing to do with DOF   it is focused on the
film/sensor plane
All the sensor size does is crop the image .. sensor size does not change
the  focal  length of the lens
nothing can change the the actual focal length of a lens.

My 50mm lens   is a 50 mm on a film camera as it is on a digital camera the
DOF is the same.

>> do you mean bokeh   ?
>> the depth of  field  is  the same at the SAME F number and SAME focal
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sensor..http://www.dofmaster.com/dof_dslr.html but as you say not by
> 1.5x
Aad - 22 Dec 2006 11:06 GMT
> Sensor size has got nothing to do with DOF   it is focused on the
> film/sensor plane
> All the sensor size does is crop the image .. sensor size does not change
> the  focal  length of the lens
> nothing can change the the actual focal length of a lens.

The zoomring does ;-))

> My 50mm lens   is a 50 mm on a film camera as it is on a digital camera
> the DOF is the same.

Yes, correct, but.....
in order to get the -same frame- you will adjust the distance to your
subject.
That -will- change the DOF.
That's why portret photographers find benefit with fullframe camera's.
(or medium format versus 35mm in the old days)
They (mostly) like the DOF to be as small as possible.
br
Aad

>>> do you mean bokeh   ?
>>> the depth of  field  is  the same at the SAME F number and SAME focal
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>> sensor..http://www.dofmaster.com/dof_dslr.html but as you say not by
>> 1.5x
Alan Browne - 22 Dec 2006 23:00 GMT
> Sensor size has got nothing to do with DOF   it is focused on the
> film/sensor plane
> All the sensor size does is crop the image .. sensor size does not change
> the  focal  length of the lens
> nothing can change the the actual focal length of a lens.

See my other posts.  DOF is all about the print or display of an image
and thence the ratio of print size to sensor size (or cropped area size
in the original sensor/film.

http://www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/dof.htm

Please do not top post.

Cheers,
Alan
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DoN. Nichols - 23 Dec 2006 03:38 GMT
According to bob <nospam@hotmail.com>:
> Sensor size has got nothing to do with DOF   it is focused on the
> film/sensor plane
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> My 50mm lens   is a 50 mm on a film camera as it is on a digital camera the
> DOF is the same.

    Since the DOF is sensitive to the amount of enlargement to make
the final print, and the image from the lens is cropped by the sensor,
it needs more enlargement to fill the print, thus affecting the final
DOF.

    Of course -- if you crop both images to use only a part of each
the same size on the sensor or film to make the full print image, then
yes, the DOF is identical in both -- and not what would be predicted
purely from the aperture and focal length.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Gisle Hannemyr - 24 Dec 2006 08:57 GMT
> Sensor size has got nothing to do with DOF

Wrong.

> it is focused on the film/sensor plane

Correct.

> All the sensor size does is crop the image .. sensor size does not
> change the focal length of the lens nothing can change the the
> actual focal length of a lens.

Correct.

> My 50mm lens is a 50 mm on a film camera as it is on a digital
> camera the DOF is the same.

Wrong.

Perceived DOF depends upon three things: actual focal length,
aperture, and /magnification/.

If you keep focal length and aperture constant, the magnification
depends upon sensor/film size.  The image captured with the smaller
sensor/film area must be magnified more to produce a print of a given
size.

The perceived DOF depends upon magnification of slightly out of focus
"points" in the image, and since the "points" captured on a smaller
sensor is magnified more for a given print size, a smaller sensor
have a more shallow DOF.

It works the same with film.  If you do not use the whole negative,
but crop a portion from the center to produce an enlargement, the
perceived DOF of the crop will be more shallow than a print of the
same size produced from the whole negative.
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Wayne - 26 Dec 2006 00:01 GMT
>Sensor size has got nothing to do with DOF   it is focused on the
>film/sensor plane
>All the sensor size does is crop the image .. sensor size does not change
>the  focal  length of the lens
>nothing can change the the actual focal length of a lens.

The lens does not change, however, sensor size definitely affects the DOF
formula, via CoC.  
See DOF formula at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field
Then look up Circle of Confusion.

The DOF computation formula depends heavily on the assigned circle of
confusion diameter (CoC).  Since the smaller sensor is cropped, any print
must be enlarged more.  If using the SAME CoC, then yes, the same aperture
and focal length will compute the same DOF.  However, the greater enlargement
will look worse when the same print size is printed, so we were just kidding
ourselves.

So, the common and prudent practice is to reduce the acceptable Circle of
Confusion for smaller sensors.  Therefore computed DOF is reduced too.  The
small sensor is simply not as capable.  Increasing sensor size increases CoC,
which computes greater DOF with the same lens and settings.

The common APS size sensor DSLR gets roughly bout a stop less DOF than a full
frame sensor would.  
Awewe
bob - 22 Dec 2006 10:49 GMT
The photographs aren't framed identically; the DSLR photograph is a cropped
version of the 35mm photograph

The DOF is identical as idicated on the barrel of the lens.. would be a neat
trick if you could change the depth of field just by cropping!!
This is the physics of the lens..  if your rule applied I would have to
stick a differnt label on the lens barrel  depending on how I cropped the
frame.
Alan Browne - 22 Dec 2006 23:03 GMT
> The photographs aren't framed identically; the DSLR photograph is a cropped
> version of the 35mm photograph
>
> The DOF is identical as idicated on the barrel of the lens..

Ahem.  What's marked on the lens is an entirely subjective depth of
field based on a nominal print size of 8x10 inches.  If you blow up to
16x20 inches, then the DOF will be shallower ...  or, if you blow up to
that size (8x10) from a smaller sensor, then the DOF will be shallower.

> would be a neat
> trick if you could change the depth of field just by cropping!!

Yes indeed: in the case where the cropped image is blown up to 8x10, v.
the uncropped image being blown up to 8x10.

see: http://www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/dof.htm

Please do not top post.

Cheers,
Alan

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Joseph Meehan - 22 Dec 2006 11:09 GMT
> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> regards
> Jean

   I see the DOF's deadly difference has already shown up.

   Note: there is a difference between Depth Of Field and Depth Of Focus.

   I will keep out of trying to explain the difference.  While I have a
working knowledge of the whole thing that works well for my needs, I fear if
I tried to explain it I would end up creating more confusion that knowledge.

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bob - 22 Dec 2006 11:57 GMT
The difference the image plane and object plane
as I said earlier sensor size has nothing to do with either one of these.

>> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
>> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> if I tried to explain it I would end up creating more confusion that
> knowledge.
Joseph Meehan - 22 Dec 2006 14:35 GMT
> The difference the image plane and object plane
> as I said earlier sensor size has nothing to do with either one of
> these.

   Yep, but then the sensor size does have something to do with their
effect on the final product.  Of course my statement again is incomplete and
could be misleading.

   I suspect the only real way of providing easy to understand useful
information is to have anyone with a question on this issue use their
equipment and see what actually happens with real images.  In the end even
if you fully understand the theory and can do all the math, it is the final
product (image) that is what it is all about.

>>> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
>>> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF be
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>>
>> Dia 's Muire duit

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Gisle Hannemyr - 24 Dec 2006 09:05 GMT
> I suspect the only real way of providing easy to understand useful
> information is to have anyone with a question on this issue use
> their equipment and see what actually happens with real images.

After endless discussions, I finally did that.
The images are here:
  http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop2.html

I compare a 1.3x crop camera and a 4.8x crop camera (ie. a difference
in enlargement equal to 3.8x, so the difference is much more obvious
that a comparison of a 1.0x crop and a 1.6x crop.
-
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Alan Browne - 22 Dec 2006 22:58 GMT
> The difference the image plane and object plane
> as I said earlier sensor size has nothing to do with either one of these.

Not quite.  Since it is assumed that an image is captured for a useful
reason (reproduction), it is the reproduction size to capture size that
determines (ultimately) what the DOF will be in the final (useful) product.

This is so essential to DOF as to constitute the first thing you "must"
understand.

http://www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/dof.htm

Please do not top post.

Cheers,
Alan

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Joseph Meehan - 22 Dec 2006 11:17 GMT
> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> regards
> Jean

Jean,

   I assume that you want to know what the differences in what parts of
your subject would be in acceptable focus on a print with the two
camera/lens combinations.  Note that there are a number of factors including
the sensor size, I know what the Rebel has, but I don't know the Fuji, the
brand of lens makes no difference but the aperture that it is set to when
the image is exposed does make a difference.  The distance from the subject
and the zoom setting also make a difference.  All those factors must be
taken into consideration.

   If they have the same sensor size and the lens is set to the same focal
length setting (zoom) and the same aperture, it will be the same. If I am
guessing right about your question; the answer is it will be the same for
any camera as long as the sensor size is the same.  A larger sensor will
make it smaller and a smaller sensor will make it larger.

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Alan Browne - 22 Dec 2006 12:04 GMT
> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Let me know ...

DOF relates, in the end, to the ratio of the print size to sensor size
(or cropped from image sensor size).

So, for a given aperture at the "equivalent" focal length, but then
blown up to a same end print size, the DOF will be shallower for the
smaller sensor.

Cheers,
Alan

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hflaxman@neb.rr.com - 22 Dec 2006 14:29 GMT
Correct, I get what I can't see, but in focus and clear through my
Nikon TTL, no matter what size the sensor....as I do with my XT.  At
least with the XT, I see the whole photo, or what the photo's going to
look like, the Nikon crops it.

Harry

The difference is how convenient the camera is to use, one shows you
the shot you're going to get whereas the other doesn't.
> > I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> > following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
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Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2006 00:50 GMT
> Correct, I get what I can't see, but in focus and clear through my
> Nikon TTL, no matter what size the sensor....as I do with my XT.  At
> least with the XT, I see the whole photo, or what the photo's going to
> look like, the Nikon crops it.

The Rebel XT has the same 95% viewfinder coverage as a D70/80/200 and a
.80x magnification compared to the .9x 20D and .94x D80/200 but all that
has no effect on the image produced.
bob - 22 Dec 2006 15:17 GMT
Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a SLR
and  a DSLR  its identical DOF
but the image is cropped on a DSLR. dont tell me its different I have tried
this experiment
line a row of items away from the camera sit them on tape measure .. and lo
and behold the DOF is identical
you will see the  same things in focus  on both SLR and DSLR
>> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
>> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 22 Dec 2006 15:35 GMT
> Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a SLR
> and  a DSLR  its identical DOF
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and behold the DOF is identical
> you will see the  same things in focus  on both SLR and DSLR

If you use two DSLRs, one with an APS sized sensor and one with a
35mm-sized sensor, and using the same f/stop and lens, then, as you
say, one image is simply a crop of the other. If you now produce two
identically-sized prints from them, the one from the APS-sized sensor
will have greater DOF (by around 1.5 times). This is because you have
to enlarge the image from the smaller sensor more (about 1.5 times). If
you change lenses to take the crop factor into account, and if you also
change the circle of confusion to take the different magnifications
required to produce a print into account, then the APS-sized sensor
will have less DOF, by again 1.5 times.

Of course, on the sensor, with the same lens and f/stop, the results
are exactly same (but cropped, in one case). But depth of field is
defined on a print (I didn't just invent this definition, it's what is
used to produce the markings on the lens that you speak of). In which
case, DOF is not independent of sensor size, for the reasons just given
(ie one needs to take into account that the recorded image must be
enlarged more, and so on).

> >> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> >> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
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Aad - 22 Dec 2006 19:45 GMT
>> Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a
>> SLR
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> (ie one needs to take into account that the recorded image must be
> enlarged more, and so on).

So, if I crop the ff picture (in Photoshop) to the same size as APS picture
and print them in the same size the DOF is'nt the same?
I mean, cropping is cropping, right?
kr
Aad

>> >> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
>> >> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
>> > --      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
>> > --                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 22 Dec 2006 20:15 GMT
> So, if I crop the ff picture (in Photoshop) to the same size as APS picture
> and print them in the same size the DOF is'nt the same?
> I mean, cropping is cropping, right?
> kr
> Aad

No, DOF won't be the same. Think of it this way: I take a photo of
various point sources of light at various distances. These are imaged
on the sensor as a) points if they are exactly some distance from the
sensor (the distance to which I am focused), b) small circles if
they're not. Now, if I print this thing to some size, the diameters of
these circles are enlarged by as many times as the print size is bigger
than the sensor size. So, it is possible for the same circle size to be
perceived as in focus or out of focus, depending on how many times the
image was enlarged. The DOF markings on lenses are derived by assuming
that a particular size of circle on the film is in acceptable focus.

I know what the problem is: You are thinking that the DOF is fixed once
the image is recorded, while if you think about it, it's fixed only
when we print.

If you want to define DOF on the sensor (and not the print), then
that's another story (and you'll have to ignore DOF calculators and so
on, or rather, you'll have to manually set the circle of confusion to
something; if you set it equal to the pixel size, eg 6 microns or so,
you'll find out what will seem in focus if you zoom to 1:1 in photoshop
on your images).

If you search for depth of field on google, or circle of confusion,
you'll find thousands of pages of information on this.
Aad - 23 Dec 2006 01:18 GMT
>> So, if I crop the ff picture (in Photoshop) to the same size as APS
>> picture
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> If you search for depth of field on google, or circle of confusion,
> you'll find thousands of pages of information on this.

So that means I can change depth of field in my pictures just by changing
the enlargement?
I print 10x15cm and don't like the DOF. I print 20x30cm and it's better.
Weird!
Will try it after a good night sleep.
kr
Aad
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Dec 2006 02:59 GMT
> So that means I can change depth of field in my pictures just by changing
> the enlargement?
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> kr
> Aad

Well, this isn't as strange as it may first sound. For example,
photographs which are slightly blurred (eg because of camera motion)
may look perfectly ok when printed at 10x15cm, but if printed at
60x90cm they won't. It's the same idea.

Or think of looking at a slide by holding it up against a light as
opposed to projecting it onto a screen (or, better, printing it at some
large size, say 120x180cm for shock value). In the second case, isn't
it true that various imperfections (such as being slightly out of
focus) become more obvious? Again, same idea. Well, at 120x180cm it'll
be rubbish anyway (if 135mm film), but never mind.

As an off-topic aside, some time ago I happened to be in Amsterdam and
went to an exhibition of award-winning journalistic photographs. It is
quite spectacular how irrelevant strong chroma noise and low resolution
become when looking at a (probably 8mp) 60x90cm print showing some poor
guy without arms being helped to get dressed by his 5 year old son (and
this in a refugee camp). Puts everything into proper perspective.
Aad - 23 Dec 2006 10:25 GMT
>> So that means I can change depth of field in my pictures just by changing
>> the enlargement?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> may look perfectly ok when printed at 10x15cm, but if printed at
> 60x90cm they won't. It's the same idea.

O.k. I understand. But are'nt you forgetting something? The viewing
distance?
Bigger prints will be looked at from greater distances.
The bigger the distance, the less details you can see, the sharper the
picture looks/appears. (billboards can be printed at 70 dpi)
So don't you think that you're theorie is compensated because the viewing
distance will equalize the differences?
A 10x15 will be looked ad on tabel or lapp. A 60x90 will prob. hang on the
wall an lookded at from at least 1,5 mtr.
kr
Aad

> Or think of looking at a slide by holding it up against a light as
> opposed to projecting it onto a screen (or, better, printing it at some
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> guy without arms being helped to get dressed by his 5 year old son (and
> this in a refugee camp). Puts everything into proper perspective.
Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2006 17:58 GMT
>>>So that means I can change depth of field in my pictures just by changing
>>>the enlargement?
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> A 10x15 will be looked ad on tabel or lapp. A 60x90 will prob. hang on the
> wall an lookded at from at least 1,5 mtr.

This is true but it's impractical to examine a post card in great detail
and with a poster sized print, you'd have to hang it high or behind some
obstacle to prevent people from stepping closer to examine the detail
like in the case of a billboard.

I've been doing a bunch of printing at 13x19 and quite a few have turned
out dissapointing... I had thought they would be ok but do not satisfy
at larger print sizes. They looked fine at letter size.
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Dec 2006 19:42 GMT
> O.k. I understand. But are'nt you forgetting something? The viewing
> distance?
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> kr
> Aad

Well, I think I made a special point of saying that it is not my
theory. It is what is used in the industry to produce the DOF tables,
and what is used by DOF calculators online etc.

What you say is of course very true, otherwise. Also, factors like how
sharpened the photograph is, and how much detail the in-focus part has
also affect perceived DOF. I was merely talking about the technical
definition of the term.

By the way, the quantity you are thinking of (ie that satisifes you
criteria for being reasonable) is depth of focus (the same thing, but
on the sensor side).
Alan Browne - 23 Dec 2006 19:51 GMT
> O.k. I understand. But are'nt you forgetting something? The viewing
> distance?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> A 10x15 will be looked ad on tabel or lapp. A 60x90 will prob. hang on the
> wall an lookded at from at least 1,5 mtr.

I suggest you peruse:
http://www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/dof.htm
to get a handle on the assumptions relevant to DOF markings on the lens,
print sizes, viewing distance, etc.

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Aad - 23 Dec 2006 23:52 GMT
>> O.k. I understand. But are'nt you forgetting something? The viewing
>> distance?
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> to get a handle on the assumptions relevant to DOF markings on the lens,
> print sizes, viewing distance, etc.

Very nice link. Thanks for that.
Don't think I'll use that info very often.
I take a picture, print it and like it or not.
For me its all about emotion.
In many ocasions I like pictures because it feels good. Mostly these are not
the 'perfect' pictures.
kr
Aad
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Dec 2006 00:07 GMT
> >> O.k. I understand. But are'nt you forgetting something? The viewing
> >> distance?
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> In many ocasions I like pictures because it feels good. Mostly these are not
> the 'perfect' pictures.

Well, I completely agree: photography is about emotion, and nothing
else. Some people find that explicit technical knowledge allows them to
express this emotion more easily; others do it intuitively, or simply
by trial and error, without necessarily being able to enunciate what
technical trick they're using, but using it nonetheless.

On the other hand, if you explicitly disagree with a technical point,
it is generally felt to be bad form to dismiss it as irrelevant (or
plebeian, or whatever you want to call it) once it is pointed out to
you that you misunderstood and/or where wrong.

Sorry for not being very polite or subtle.
Aad - 24 Dec 2006 13:53 GMT
>> >> O.k. I understand. But are'nt you forgetting something? The viewing
>> >> distance?
[quoted text clipped - 33 lines]
>
> Sorry for not being very polite or subtle.

Don't need to be sorry for nothing. ;-))
I don't disagree, I did'nt no. Now I do, and maybe, sometime in the future,
I realise this discussion was usefull for me.
kr
Aad
Alan Browne - 24 Dec 2006 14:44 GMT
>>I suggest you peruse:
>>http://www.nikonlinks.com/unklbil/dof.htm
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> In many ocasions I like pictures because it feels good. Mostly these are not
> the 'perfect' pictures.

Then you shouldn't get too wrapped up in a technical discussion.  I too
shoot for an end effect and hope to get images that please me and other
viewers.  Use of DOF whether for isolation or grand landscape images
with everything tack sharp (if so required) is part of the expression.

While mastering all of the technical details cannot guarantee a great
and impactful image, the more you understand and apply will contribute
to making a great vision into a great image.  Basics like DOF are easy
enough to master in simple lens systems as found on 35mm cameras.

Cheers,
Alan

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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 26 Dec 2006 04:16 GMT
> I too
> shoot for an end effect and hope to get images that please me and other
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan

Alan,
Well said.

Merry Christmas,

Roger
Alan Browne - 27 Dec 2006 22:35 GMT
>> I too shoot for an end effect and hope to get images that please me
>> and other viewers.  Use of DOF whether for isolation or grand
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> Alan,
> Well said.

Thx

> Merry Christmas,
>
> Roger

And to you a Happy New Year,
Cheers,
Alan

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Bob - 22 Dec 2006 22:38 GMT
>>> Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a
>>> SLR
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
> kr
> Aad

it seeml ike  there is magic around if you get a pair of sissors and crop  a
picture you get an increase in DOF
.. crop it so much .. you will get amazing  DOF and you never need to focus
;).. you learn something everyday

>>> >> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
>>> >> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Dec 2006 00:21 GMT
> >>> Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a
> >>> SLR
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
> .. crop it so much .. you will get amazing  DOF and you never need to focus
> ;).. you learn something everyday

Did you actually read what I wrote? No, guessing from your reaction.
Fine, your beliefs are your own business, even if wrong!
W Paul Mills - 23 Dec 2006 03:38 GMT
> it seeml ike  there is magic around if you get a pair of sissors and crop  a
> picture you get an increase in DOF
> .. crop it so much .. you will get amazing  DOF and you never need to focus
> ;).. you learn something everyday

Well one thing that has not been mentioned so far is the viewing
distance. That is also a factor.
Alan Browne - 23 Dec 2006 14:38 GMT
> Well one thing that has not been mentioned so far is the viewing
> distance. That is also a factor.

For the purposes of DOF evaluation in the print the viewing distance is
typically quite close (about twice the diagonal).  Otherwise it's like
printing small, giving the appearance of more DOF.

Cheers,
Alan

PS: you don't need to digitally sign your posts here.

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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Dec 2006 20:04 GMT
> Well one thing that has not been mentioned so far is the viewing
> distance. That is also a factor.

Many things are factors. The type of surface on which the print is
made. How much it was sharpened. Whether there is anything at distances
between the subject and the background. (Try printing the same thing on
glossy and matte papers; also sharpen the one on the glossy paper more,
and you'll see what I mean). It depends on who is viewing, and which
(if any) pair of glasses he is wearing. It depends on the lighting. It
depends on how much he's had to drink. Where he is doing the viewing
(in a gallery? a moving car? a crashing airplane? his ability to
discern fine points, as well as his interest in doing so, will be
different in each case).

However, when we speak of DOF, there is a widely accepted definition,
given here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depth_of_field
(look at the equations, not the blah blah). So when DOF is discussed,
either we talk about this thing (in which the viewing distance, sensor
size and print size enter indirectly and together through the circle of
confusion), or we factor in other things, in which case we are talking
about something else. Nothing wrong with that, of course: it is obvious
that if I am in a pitch black room, the formulae given in the link do
not produce the correct DOF (as I cannot see the print at all).

Some things, however, are implicitly assumed in such discussions;
repeating them again and again, and in general providing a complete
self-contained context around each sentence (such as specifying that
DOF does not mean some random concept that could have this name but the
particular concept that is widely accepted) gets tiring.

To reiterate: In the definition of DOF that I thought was being
discussed, the viewing distance enters through the circle of confusion.
So does the printing size, and the sensor size (which also affects the
focal length if you want to equalise fields of view). In other
definitions, other things happen.
Alan Browne - 22 Dec 2006 22:07 GMT
> Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a SLR
> and  a DSLR  its identical DOF
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and behold the DOF is identical
> you will see the  same things in focus  on both SLR and DSLR

First of all: don't top post.

Second of all: I wasn't replying to you.

Third of all: for a focal length "equivalent" as asked by the OP, and
same f/ stop, but on a different sized sensor (giving in the end the
same subject coverage in the image), then the only thing driving DOF is
the magnification from sensor/film to print.  And that drives the DOF.

In the end: The more you have to magnify, the shallower the resulting
DOF.  So from a smaller sensor to a given end size, shallower DOF.

Cheers,
Alan

>>>I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
>>>following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>>Cheers,
>>Alan

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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 23 Dec 2006 01:39 GMT
> Im not talking about equvalent ,  if you use the same prime lens  on a SLR
> and  a DSLR  its identical DOF
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and behold the DOF is identical
> you will see the  same things in focus  on both SLR and DSLR

Depth of field is dependent on print size.  If you crop an image
and enlarge it to the same as uncropped, you magnify the
out-of-focus areas.

FYI:

 The Depth-of-Field Myth and Digital Cameras
 http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/dof_myth

Roger
Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2006 01:21 GMT
> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF  be
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>  to  one taken with a Fuji S5500  5.7-57 at F4.5 24mm (37 - 370 35mm
> equivalent)

You are asking equivalent vield of view... the 35mm eq. is calculated
for the Fuji but not for the Rebel. I'm assuming you figured 24mm is eq.
to 100mm but really you'd want to match 160mm on the Fuji. In any case
that's nitpicking & you may have it right.

The answer is, the Fuji will have more DOF for the same field of view
same f/stop printed at the same size.
Gisle Hannemyr - 24 Dec 2006 08:43 GMT
> I would like to know the way in which DOF will change across the
> following cameras at same f number and focal length ..or will DOF be
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Let me know ...

It will be different.

To see how sensor size affects DOF (and other paramters, please
vist):
  http://hannemyr.com/photo/crop.html
  http://hannemyr.com/photo/cropw2.html

The last link have some test shots that demonstrates the DOF
very clearly.
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Buy_Sell - 24 Dec 2006 20:00 GMT
This has been very educational.

I still find it very interesting that my Sony Mavica CD300 camera can
take a "hand held" photo, without the use of a flash, in low lighting
conditions with less camera shake and more depth of field than I can
possibly produce on my Nikon D70s under the exact same conditions.

PS:  I suspect that the Sony camera is using some sort of anti-shake
system even though they do not advertise it.

Nikon D70s
- 50mm f/1.8
- 35-70mm f/2.8
- 80-200mm f/2.8
- 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6
- 70-300mm f/4-5.6

Sony CD300
- 7-21mm f/2-2.5 ( equivalent to 34-102mm )
Paul Furman - 24 Dec 2006 22:11 GMT
> This has been very educational.
>
> I still find it very interesting that my Sony Mavica CD300 camera can
> take a "hand held" photo, without the use of a flash, in low lighting
> conditions with less camera shake and more depth of field than I can
> possibly produce on my Nikon D70s under the exact same conditions.

If you boost the ISO on the D70 to 1600, it should use the same shutter
speed & give the same DOF & a similar noise level. If you use a faster
lens, the D70 can do cleaner hand held with less DOF.

> Nikon D70s
> - 50mm f/1.8
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Sony CD300 [3.4MP]
> - 7-21mm f/2-2.5 ( equivalent to 34-102mm )

http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/depth-of-field.htm
Focused at 3m away, equal field of view:
7mm f/2 1/1.8" sensor, DOF is 17m
22.4mm f/5.6 1.5 crop sensor, DOF is 10m and quickly reaches infinity.
so the difference between f/2 & f/5.6 is three stops... so boost the D70
three stops from 200 to 1600 and I think you'd have about the same
exposure time.

Now let's say you had a 28mm f/1.4 and remember the Sony is already wide
open, nowhere to go from there, well it probably can go three stops from
50-400 ISO but that won't look any better than the D70 underexposed at
1600 & post processed. The D70 with that lens could gain another 4 stops
of aperture speed (at the cost of DOF) which the Sony simply can't do.
Buy_Sell - 24 Dec 2006 22:48 GMT
Thanks for the quick reply, Paul.

I quite often shoot closer than 3m and here is the real problem.  I
maintain several multi-million dollar flight simulators as an
occupation.  Some of the photos that I enjoy taking, are of the
interiors of these training devices.

The view through the window of the cockpit is an illusion.  If a flash
were used, I would get the flash back in my face because what you are
really looking at is a large curved mylar mirror.  The real image is
being projected on an acrylic dome located above the cockpit, out of
normal view.

Several years ago, I took the following image with a Sony P&S camera.
It is not the greatest quality photo but it was my first attempt.  I
have been attempting to get better photos with my Nikon equipment but
it is very difficult.  The scenery in the image is constantly moving
and so are the flight crews that are training.

http://www.pbase.com/iwerk/image/67346986

By forcing the D70s to shoot at a higher ISO would degrade the quality
of the image and I would end up, right back where I started by using
the Sony camera.

-----------------------------

> > This has been very educational.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
> 1600 & post processed. The D70 with that lens could gain another 4 stops
> of aperture speed (at the cost of DOF) which the Sony simply can't do.
Paul Furman - 24 Dec 2006 23:34 GMT
> Thanks for the quick reply, Paul.
>
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
> of the image and I would end up, right back where I started by using
> the Sony camera.

Yes for that specific purpose, there really is no improvement to be
made. There are other things the DSLR outperforms with but not wide DOF
action in low light.

> -----------------------------
>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>>1600 & post processed. The D70 with that lens could gain another 4 stops
>>of aperture speed (at the cost of DOF) which the Sony simply can't do.
 
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