Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006
NASA strips all their cameras
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RichA - 22 Dec 2006 01:25 GMT Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a plastic problem. With Hasselblad, they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels.
Toby - 22 Dec 2006 03:24 GMT > Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a > plastic problem. With Hasselblad, > they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. Outgassing seems to be one of your problems as well ;-)
Nigel Cummings - 22 Dec 2006 10:43 GMT A simple remedy to eradicate the RichPlasticNutter virus from your newsgroup access - if you use Outlook Express, just select his most recent annoying message, then look at the message options in Outlook Express, then select 'Block Sender', that message and all previous messages generated by this nasty little virus will be deleted forever!
>> Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a >> plastic problem. With Hasselblad, >> they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. > > Outgassing seems to be one of your problems as well ;-) Gerrit 't Hart - 22 Dec 2006 11:31 GMT > A simple remedy to eradicate the RichPlasticNutter virus from your newsgroup > access - if you use Outlook Express, just select his most recent annoying [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > > > Outgassing seems to be one of your problems as well ;-) Its not such an easy remedy as you make out because people like you keep answering and repeating the original post so we still have to put up with him.
Gerrit
Rebecca Ore - 22 Dec 2006 14:36 GMT > A simple remedy to eradicate the RichPlasticNutter virus from your newsgroup > access - if you use Outlook Express, just select his most recent annoying > message, then look at the message options in Outlook Express, then select > 'Block Sender', that message and all previous messages generated by this > nasty little virus will be deleted forever! The people replying to him have chosen deliberately to reply to him. They'd miss him dreadfully if he wasn't around, obviously. He's been here for years, apparently.
l v - 22 Dec 2006 18:00 GMT > A simple remedy to eradicate the RichPlasticNutter virus from your newsgroup > access - if you use Outlook Express, just select his most recent annoying [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >>> they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. >> Outgassing seems to be one of your problems as well ;-) Ah, but if you use Mozilla Thunderbird you can select the message and just type a 'k'. This will ignore the whole thread thus eliminating it from you view no matter how many replies - like this one.
 Signature Len
Charles Schuler - 22 Dec 2006 20:57 GMT > Outgassing seems to be one of your problems as well ;-) ;>)
Good one.
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 22 Dec 2006 09:19 GMT > Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a > plastic problem. With Hasselblad, > they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. Sigh. Enough is enough.
Just SHUT UP. Having a high posting statistic means NOTHING.
(Which is, in an astonishing coincidence worthy of the Hitchhiker's Guide, almost *exactly equal* to the useful content of this post.)
And the answer to your question is of course, 42.
(I realise I am going to evoke a response, which therefore will - in some insane way - encourage him.. but I shall to try to refrain from biting on future Rich-scraps.)
Paul J Gans - 23 Dec 2006 04:36 GMT >> Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a >> plastic problem. With Hasselblad, >> they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels.
>Sigh. Enough is enough.
>Just SHUT UP. Having a high posting statistic means NOTHING.
>(Which is, in an astonishing coincidence worthy of the Hitchhiker's >Guide, almost *exactly equal* to the useful content of this post.)
>And the answer to your question is of course, 42.
>(I realise I am going to evoke a response, which therefore will - in >some insane way - encourage him.. but I shall to try to refrain from >biting on future Rich-scraps.) Rich is a plastic poster. He's just outgassing.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
Charles Schuler - 22 Dec 2006 21:30 GMT > Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a > plastic problem. With Hasselblad, > they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. Post a link.
RichA - 22 Dec 2006 22:48 GMT > > Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a > > plastic problem. With Hasselblad, > > they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. > > Post a link. This site has a picture of the stripped camera. http://tinyurl.com/ybs7c9
John Bean - 22 Dec 2006 22:59 GMT >> > Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a >> > plastic problem. With Hasselblad, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >This site has a picture of the stripped camera. >http://tinyurl.com/ybs7c9 I see no mention of replacement of plastic parts as a result of outgassing problems. Please post a link to your source of this information.
 Signature John Bean
U-Know-Who - 23 Dec 2006 03:22 GMT >> > Of the plastic coverings before going into space. Outgassing is a >> > plastic problem. With Hasselblad, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > This site has a picture of the stripped camera. > http://tinyurl.com/ybs7c9 OMG! Are you really that stupid?
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 23 Dec 2006 11:16 GMT > > Post a link. > This site has a picture of the stripped camera. > http://tinyurl.com/ybs7c9 Irrelevant.
We're waiting very patiently, Rich. Post a link about the *outgassing* - that's what your highly confident and knowledgable post was about, n'est ce pas?
As far as I can see, and even that link you supplied backed it up, the only reasons were:
"The Data Camera was given a silver finish to make it more resistant to thermal variations" "The Data Camera was modified to prevent accumulation of static electricity."
I doubt the second had any bearing on the removal, but included it for completeness. So where's the 'outgassing' bit exactly?
(Offtopic, and just so's this post isn't a complete waste of time.. Isn't it totally weird how some words look misspelled - eg "Irrelevant"... and.. er.. "misspelled"...(O;)
J. Clarke - 23 Dec 2006 12:30 GMT On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:16:12 -0800, mark.thomas.7 wrote:
>> > Post a link. >> This site has a picture of the stripped camera. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > I doubt the second had any bearing on the removal, but included it for > completeness. So where's the 'outgassing' bit exactly? There's also the little matter that the link he posted refers to a camera used on the Apollo 11 mission, which was in 1969. Even if everything he said was true of that camera, it's quite a stretch from "NASA stripped one camera almost 40 years ago" to "NASA strips _all_ their cameras".
> (Offtopic, and just so's this post isn't a complete waste of time.. > Isn't it totally weird how some words look misspelled - eg > "Irrelevant"... and.. er.. "misspelled"...(O;)
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RichA - 23 Dec 2006 16:34 GMT > On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:16:12 -0800, mark.thomas.7 wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > said was true of that camera, it's quite a stretch from "NASA stripped one > camera almost 40 years ago" to "NASA strips _all_ their cameras". Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much over the last 40 years, right?
John Bean - 23 Dec 2006 18:50 GMT >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >over the last 40 years, right? Nice Strawman, but now please give us all the reference for your claim that plastics were replaced with metal by NASA because of outgassing.
 Signature John Bean
Ken Lucke - 23 Dec 2006 19:10 GMT > >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much > >over the last 40 years, right? > > Nice Strawman, but now please give us all the reference for > your claim that plastics were replaced with metal by NASA > because of outgassing. It's not a "pure oxygen environmment" anyway.
When will you people learn to just ignore the RichA troll? He gets his jollies getting you people to respond to him. It feeds his pathological craving for attention. He spends all day searching for things to post that will elicit a response, and you rise to the bait like a hungry trout to a fly.
Ignore him. Better yet, killfile him. When he starts talking to himself online like he probably does in person, maybe he'll give up.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Charles Schuler - 23 Dec 2006 21:03 GMT > When will you people learn to just ignore the RichA troll? He gets his > jollies getting you people to respond to him. It feeds his > pathological craving for attention. He spends all day searching for > things to post that will elicit a response, and you rise to the bait > like a hungry trout to a fly. Ken, the devil makes us do it.
Ken Lucke - 23 Dec 2006 21:17 GMT > > When will you people learn to just ignore the RichA troll? He gets his > > jollies getting you people to respond to him. It feeds his [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Ken, the devil makes us do it. I know, I know. =:^)
Hmmm... well, then every time it feels that way, go take a picture instead (if you went out somewhere and got a good photo for every one of his moronic posts, you'd have a pretty impressive (or even more impressive than it may already be) portfolio in a very short space of time!) - or do something else productive... blowing away his stupid pathetic pleas for personal attention is not productive - in fact, it's counterproductive... a) it just encourages him more, and b) he's not going to learn from the truth, if he even cares about it (being far more enamored of the attention it gets him). :^)
For the first two days I read his stuff here, I was inclined to do the same as you. The third day I killfiled him; but I still read almost everything else (there's only one other here that I've killfiled), so he still shows up in your (generic "your") replies. Like a very bad penny.
Trolls are the same wherever you go on usenet.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Charles Schuler - 23 Dec 2006 22:42 GMT >> Ken, the devil makes us do it. > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > going to learn from the truth, if he even cares about it (being far > more enamored of the attention it gets him). :^) Excellent advice!
> For the first two days I read his stuff here, I was inclined to do the > same as you. The third day I killfiled him; but I still read almost > everything else (there's only one other here that I've killfiled), so > he still shows up in your (generic "your") replies. Like a very bad > penny. Yes, killfile has its limitations. I have this urge to maintain the validity of usenet. It is a ridiculous compulsion but you know how compulsions go.
> Trolls are the same wherever you go on usenet. They are a sad example of our species. They venture forth like zombies in the night.
John Bean - 23 Dec 2006 21:37 GMT >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >> >over the last 40 years, right? > >It's not a "pure oxygen environmment" anyway. I think it was on the early manned craft, but it's unimportant in this discussion anyway.
 Signature John Bean
Ken Lucke - 23 Dec 2006 21:54 GMT > >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much > >> >over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I think it was on the early manned craft, but it's > unimportant in this discussion anyway. Not even then. Pure oxygen is not good for a person for long periods. Even when they have to use it at up to 300% in hyperbaric chambers for burn victims, anaerobic bacterial infections, and such, they have to limit the time. Pure oxygen, long term, is toxic to humans.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
John Bean - 23 Dec 2006 22:08 GMT >> >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >> >> >over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >burn victims, anaerobic bacterial infections, and such, they have to >limit the time. Pure oxygen, long term, is toxic to humans. I'm no expert that's for sure, but I'm fairly certain that Mercury vehicles used 100% oxygen at 5(?)psi, the later Apollo used something like 50% oxygen/nitrogen at a bit higher pressure. There's probably some NASA references on the web if I could be bothered to look, but as I said it's not important in the present discussion.
 Signature John Bean
J. Clarke - 23 Dec 2006 23:30 GMT >>> >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >>> >> >over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > the web if I could be bothered to look, but as I said it's > not important in the present discussion. Apollo also used pure oxygen, this is why the Apollo fire happened, and the fix was to remove as much combustible material as possible from the cabin, not to change the atmospheric composition.
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J. Clarke - 23 Dec 2006 23:30 GMT >> >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO >> >> >much over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > burn victims, anaerobic bacterial infections, and such, they have to > limit the time. Pure oxygen, long term, is toxic to humans. Nonetheless it was in fact used during Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. But they weren't running at "300%", they were about 1/3 atmosphere, approximately the same as the partial pressure in the atmosphere. The Shuttle space suits still use pure oxygen at low pressure.
 Signature --John to email, dial "usenet" and validate (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
Paul J Gans - 24 Dec 2006 03:43 GMT >>> >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO >>> >> >much over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >> burn victims, anaerobic bacterial infections, and such, they have to >> limit the time. Pure oxygen, long term, is toxic to humans.
>Nonetheless it was in fact used during Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. But >they weren't running at "300%", they were about 1/3 atmosphere, >approximately the same as the partial pressure in the atmosphere. The >Shuttle space suits still use pure oxygen at low pressure. The lungs respond to the partial pressure of oxygen and ignore (to a first approximation) everything else. The "normal" partial pressure of oxygen in the atmosphere is about 20%. You can thrive then in an atmosphere that is pure oxygen at 0.20 atm, a 50/50 oxygen-nitrogen mixture at 0.40 atm, or whatever.
However, many other processes run more as we expect at 1 atm. Thus NASA's current cabin usage. For a space suit, there's no point in lugging extra nitrogen up into outer space.
As for outgassing, that depends on the composition of the plastic and the method of manufacture. Modern plastics are made with very low or no outgassing problems. Chemistry has moved forward a bit since 1960.
By the way, the "normal" human can't take an oxygen pressure of more than about 0.3 atm. This becomes a problem with people in severe heart failure.
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
Ken Lucke - 24 Dec 2006 04:47 GMT > >>> >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO > >>> >> >much over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > >Nonetheless it was in fact used during Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo. Got documentation for that? I doubt that that is the case.
> >But > >they weren't running at "300%", They weren't in hyperbaric chambers, either, which is the only place that you can accomplish that.
> >they were about 1/3 atmosphere, Then it wasn't 100%, was it?
> >approximately the same as the partial pressure in the atmosphere. The > >Shuttle space suits still use pure oxygen at low pressure. Uhm, "space suits" != "long term" annd "low pressure" != "100%".
> The lungs respond to the partial pressure of oxygen and ignore > (to a first approximation) everything else. The "normal" [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > of more than about 0.3 atm. This becomes a problem with > people in severe heart failure. Thank you. Exactly what I said - the human cannot tolerate 100% oxygen for extended periods of time.
However, the problem with high flow O2 in heart failure (we're talking CHF here, *not* AMI or similar) is not tolerating the percentile of O2 administered, but rather is that the typical CHF patient's body (we're talking about long-term CHF, not acute due to an MI, which is different) has learned to operate on hypoxic drive rather than a hyper-CO2 drive.
That is, s/he breathes because the oxygen drops below a certain percent in the blood, NOT when the CO2 builds up to a certain percent in the blood, as it does in the normal respiritory mode of humans. So adding lots of O2 to a patient with a hypoxic drive merely shuts down the mechanism that makes the body want to breathe, and they literally stop breathing because the body doesn't think that it needs to due to all the oxygen in the blood. Unfortunately, it doesn't start back up automatically.
This was one of the hardest concepts for me to get across in EMT & Paramedic classes that I taught - CHF patients should NOT be given lots of O2, even though they appear SOB, because it really makes things worse. Low flow (1-2 lpm) by cannula only. Of course, it they arrest, or they become acute, then you go high flow, intubate if necessary, and bag them - and let the hospital wean them off of the respirator later. In an emergency, chronic conditions become secondary to life-threatening ones.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Julian Vrieslander - 24 Dec 2006 06:50 GMT > > >> Not even then. Pure oxygen is not good for a person for long periods. > > >> Even when they have to use it at up to 300% in hyperbaric chambers for [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Got documentation for that? I doubt that that is the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1
 Signature Julian Vrieslander
Ken Lucke - 24 Dec 2006 15:18 GMT In article <julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART-16060E.22503523122006@customer-201-125-217-207. uninet.net.mx>, Julian Vrieslander <julianvREMOVE_THIS_PART@mindspring.com> wrote:
> > > >> Not even then. Pure oxygen is not good for a person for long periods. > > > >> Even when they have to use it at up to 300% in hyperbaric chambers for [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_1 You'll find that they breathed 100% oxygen at a reduced pressure - about 1/3 of normal - which is NOT the equivalent as breathing 100% oxygen at normal atmospheric pressures.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Julian Vrieslander - 24 Dec 2006 20:28 GMT > You'll find that they breathed 100% oxygen at a reduced pressure - > about 1/3 of normal - which is NOT the equivalent as breathing 100% > oxygen at normal atmospheric pressures. Not sure if that comment is addressed to me. If so, please note that I never made any claims about the disputes in this thread. I just posted a link which contained (I think) useful and interesting information.
I try not to get involved in usenet bar fights...
 Signature Julian Vrieslander
Arnor Baldvinsson - 24 Dec 2006 07:31 GMT Hi Ken,
> Got documentation for that? I doubt that that is the case. http://history.nasa.gov/SP-350/ch-4-4.html
Third paragraph from top: "Apollo would fly in space with a pure oxygen atmosphere at 5 psi (pounds per square inch), about one-third the pressure of the air we breathe."
http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4003/ch6-4.htm
Second paragraph from top: "The next requirement was a cabin pressurization level of 5 pounds per square inch absolute (psia) with pure oxygen atmosphere."
Best regards,
 Signature Arnor Baldvinsson San Antonio, Texas
Ken Lucke - 24 Dec 2006 15:16 GMT > Hi Ken, > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > atmosphere at 5 psi (pounds per square inch), about one-third the pressure > of the air we breathe." I'll repeat again - 100% oxygen in a 1/3 ata situation is not the same as 100% oxygen at normal atmospheric pressure. In 1/3 ata, the oxygen pressure on the tissues of the lungs is just that - 1/3 of the normal pressure, so absorption is [roughly, with some other slight factors thrown in] just that - approximately 1/3 of normal. Which is a higher percentage than the normal 20% or so at sea level that is normally breathed, but nowhere near "pure" in the sense of normal pressures. Yes, the astronauts werre kept hyperoxygenated, but they didn't breathe the earthly equivalent of 100% pure oxygen.
> http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4003/ch6-4.htm > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Best regards, I suggest that, if you dispute the idea of 100% oxygen for long term being detrimental, you look up the terms "hyperoxia", "hyperoxemia", and "oxygen toxicity". I think you'll find that the medical texts say that somewhere between 16-24 hours of 100% pure oxygen begins to become toxic for a human being.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Arnor Baldvinsson - 24 Dec 2006 17:10 GMT Hi Ken,
> I suggest that, if you dispute the idea of 100% oxygen for long term > being detrimental, you look up the terms "hyperoxia", "hyperoxemia", > and "oxygen toxicity". I think you'll find that the medical texts say > that somewhere between 16-24 hours of 100% pure oxygen begins to become > toxic for a human being. I don't dispute anything, I just happend on this thread and saw this and knew I had read that the astronauts were on 100% oxygen. 100% oxygen is 100% oxygen.
 Signature Arnor Baldvinsson San Antonio, Texas
keyboard - 24 Dec 2006 01:15 GMT > >> >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much > >> >over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > -- > John Bean I think the Nikon F1 was the camera used for the dramatic NASA moon and spacewalk photos because it has completely mechanical operation and can operate at extreme temperatures and lack of atmosphere. It does have a rudimentary light meter which is not needed for operation. ignore(alpha beta epsilon drdrive drdach jeffrey dach dalk dask)
jeffrey dach
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 24 Dec 2006 03:54 GMT >>Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >>over the last 40 years, right? > > Nice Strawman, but now please give us all the reference for > your claim that plastics were replaced with metal by NASA > because of outgassing. Outgassing is a major concern on spacecraft missions
http://outgassing.nasa.gov
Whether a plastic part is used in a mission depends on the application. For optics, a major concern is material outgassing and coating optics, like happened on the Cassini narrow angle camera: http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press-releases-02/20020723-pr-a.cfm and on Stardust: http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/vision.html and this is trying to use low outgassing components like on the above web site.
Here is a draft document concerning contamination on the upcoming lunar mission: http://snebulos.mit.edu/projects/crater/file_cabinet/0/01002/01002_10_r02m.pdf
more documentation: https://400dg.gsfc.nasa.gov/sites/400/docsguidance/All%20Documents/Contam_Eng_Gu idelines.doc includes removal of items and testing outgassing.
Has anyone noticed that a film grows on the inside of your car windows? That is plastic and other components outgassing. If you left your camera and lenses in the sun for a long time that could happen to them too, which includes shooting outside a lot. Often old camera lenses appear fogged. In some cases, the fogging can be from components on the lens mount.
Sometimes Rich posts correct information, and too many are too quick to pounce on him, like bullies.
Roger
Ken Lucke - 24 Dec 2006 04:50 GMT > Sometimes Rich posts correct information, and too many are > too quick to pounce on him, like bullies. > > Roger The problem is that he posts information which might (and I emphasize the word _might_ there) have some minor basis in fact, but does it in an inflammatory fashion, almost always with little or no relation to the actual circumstances that he is linking it to, but always in a way that seems to support his obsession(s).
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
mark.thomas.7@gmail.com - 24 Dec 2006 12:31 GMT > Outgassing is a major concern on spacecraft missions > > http://outgassing.nasa.gov Was it such a concern back in the Apollo days? Can you provide any supporting evidence for Rich's *actual claim*, quoted below?
> Whether a plastic part is used in a mission depends on > the application. For optics, a major concern is material > outgassing and coating optics, like happened on the Cassini > narrow angle camera: > http://saturn.jpl.nasa.gov/news/press-releases-02/20020723-pr-a.cfm So how did that happen, if NASA are religiously monitoring outgassing and not using any materials that would cause problems? Were they far better back in the Apollo days?
More seriously, that link does *not* specifically refer to plastic outgassing, seeming to blame it on engine exhaust, and it refers to heating being used to rectify the problem. Does heating actually work on plastic-induced hazes? That is certainly not my experience with car windscreens..!
> and on Stardust: > http://stardust.jpl.nasa.gov/news/vision.html > and this is trying to use low outgassing components like > on the above web site. But that artice says "The source of the contamination is not known"!!! Are these the only links you can find? - they do not support Rich's statement - may I remind you that he stated:
>NASA strips all their cameras of the plastic coverings before going into space.... >With Hasselblad, they replaced the black plastic with silver metal panels. Roger, if you wish to support Rich, please tell us: - Do nasa strip all plastic coverings off space cameras? Why just the *coverings*??? - Whether it is true or not, exactly how is that of relevance to earthly use? - In particular, is external plastic componentry of major concern? (I would have thought one should be more concerned about items you *can't see*, eg the materials, lubricants, paints/coatings used *inside* lens assemblies...) - Did the plastic coverings get removed off the Apollo Hasselblads because of outgassing concerns? (That is certainly not what I understand to be the reason for those shiny silver Hasselblads..)
> Here is a draft document concerning contamination on the > upcoming lunar mission: [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > https://400dg.gsfc.nasa.gov/sites/400/docsguidance/All%20Documents/Contam_Eng_Gu idelines.doc > includes removal of items and testing outgassing. Good to see they are thinking about it, but your previous links indicate: - the last two hazing problems happened *despite* nasa's interest in this area - that they don't have any clear idea what those hazes were, or if they were in any way related to plastic outgassing
> Has anyone noticed that a film grows on the inside of your > car windows? That is plastic and other components outgassing. Yes, on many vehicles I've owned (or cleaned) (O;. Interestingly, on my current rather cheap (and very plasticky) current vehicle, no problem exists. Go figure.
> If you left your camera and lenses in the sun for a long time > that could happen to them too, which includes shooting outside > a lot. Often old camera lenses appear fogged. In some cases, > the fogging can be from components on the lens mount. I'd be interested to hear how many people have encountered this - I've only seen it on a couple of very cheap cameras, and on another where I replaced the focusing helicoid grease..(and had to pull it apart again and try another type of grease - thankfully my second attempt was more successful!) That seems to indicate that most manufacturers understand the issue perfectly well, and that it is effectively a non-issue. I'm happy to be proven wrong by camera repair persons, or others with far more experience, but it's not something I've seen much whining about. Except here, by Rich..
> Sometimes Rich posts correct information, and too many are > too quick to pounce on him, like bullies. "Sometimes"??? There we have it, folks.. Yes, he "sometimes" posts useful stuff - but this isn't one of those times, and when he posts unsubstantiated, flawed and opinionated rubbish, it *should* be pounced on in my opinion.
But that's just me, bully that I am. (O:
J. Clarke - 24 Dec 2006 14:30 GMT >>>Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >>>over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Sometimes Rich posts correct information, and too many are > too quick to pounce on him, like bullies. Roger, do yourself a favor and don't pretend that you understand technical matters. Stick to photography.
None of those spacecraft are using commercially produced SLR cameras maintained in a sea level cabin by human flight crews who outgas massive quantities of water vapor, CO2, methane, and other substances, and there is no mention in any of them of removing plastic parts from cameras to avoid outgassing. In at least one of them the fogging is attributed to deposition of engine exhaust, not to materials outgassing, as you would know if you had actually understood what you were reading.
Yes, NASA tests items used on spacecraft for outgassing. DUH. And if something fails the test they fix it. They also test for fire safety and many other things, but that doesn't mean that they replace all synthetics with asbestos and firebrick to avoid fire. Engineering is a compromise.
Rich is as usual full of crap.
 Signature --John
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Clay Bentonite - 24 Dec 2006 15:14 GMT > Roger, do yourself a favor and don't pretend that you understand technical > matters. Stick to photography. I must say after looking at Roger's site he has demonstrated a high level of proficiency in technical matters. Please post a link to your site that I'm sure is jam packed full of technical tidbits. Until then your comments hold zero credibility around here.
J. Clarke - 24 Dec 2006 16:00 GMT >> Roger, do yourself a favor and don't pretend that you understand technical >> matters. Stick to photography. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > site that I'm sure is jam packed full of technical tidbits. Until then > your comments hold zero credibility around here. Another country heard from.
Since you have posted absolutely zip that is of interest anywhere, <plonk>.
 Signature --John
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Alan Browne - 24 Dec 2006 16:27 GMT > Since you have posted absolutely zip that is of interest anywhere, <plonk>. Plonk me too please.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 24 Dec 2006 16:59 GMT >> Since you have posted absolutely zip that is of interest anywhere, >> <plonk>. > > Plonk me too please. LOL! Mr. Clarke seems to act like a spoiled little child when confronted to put up or shut up. I spanked him years back and I'm glad to see others whaling away at this child. He's great entertainment, though highly predictable and easily made to dance. Have fun.
Rita
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 25 Dec 2006 00:30 GMT >>>>Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >>>>over the last 40 years, right? [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Roger, do yourself a favor and don't pretend that you understand technical > matters. Stick to photography. Do yourself a favor and research a little before you spout off.
Then, jeez, lighten up everyone. It's Christmas Eve!
Regarding technical work, photography is a hobby, but imaging science and imaging spectroscopy is integral to my scientific field, and I have been working with spacecraft, including science design teams, for decades, so I have real world experience on this subject.
With regard to the fogging of the Cassini camera images, after that press release it was determined spacecraft exhaust was very unlikely the other three optical instruments, UVIS, VIMS, and CIRS, and which are much more sensitive to contamination as they are spectrometers, had no contamination, and neither did the other visible imaging camera. I am one of 8 US scientists on the Cassini VIMS (Visual and Infrared Mapping Spectrometer, http://wwwvims.lpl.arizona.edu ) and I investigated our data to determine if engine exhaust contaminated any of our instrument. I found none.
Regarding stripping commercial cameras of extraneous parts, like plastic shells, it has as much or more to do with reducing weight as it does controlling outgassing. In general it costs a lot to launch even an ounce of mass, so all unnecessary weight is shed. Then since in most spacecraft can not be serviced, they must be built to high standards so nothing fails, including fogging of optics due to outgassing.
Again, please lighten up, even if it wasn't Christmas.
> None of those spacecraft are using commercially produced SLR cameras > maintained in a sea level cabin by human flight crews who outgas massive [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > Rich is as usual full of crap. Alan Browne - 24 Dec 2006 15:45 GMT > Sometimes Rich posts correct information, and too many are > too quick to pounce on him, like bullies. I prefer in the main to ignore him which, if everyone would wake up and do likewise, tend to turn off his troll posts.
a.shole trolls are annoying, but eventually run away because people catch on and ignore them.
RichA-Trolling is even more annoying as he keeps bringing up the same tired, but seemingly on-topic nuggets to induce long debates that are really meaningless.
I'm less annoyed at RichA than at the same people who continously bite at his hooks.
Cheers, Alan.
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Tom Ross - 24 Dec 2006 17:13 GMT [snip]
>Sometimes Rich posts correct information, and too many are >too quick to pounce on him, like bullies. > >Roger No, sometimes Rich posts somewhat factual information, but in a manner that is inflamatory, inaccurate, and misleading. In nearly every case the conclusions he draws from this somewhat factual information is dubious, irrelevant or out-and-out wrong.
He makes outrageous claims, but rarely is prepared or willing to support them. He makes up stuff.
Rich is a halfast hit-and-run troll and a pox to any froup he invades. Many of his responses are so predictable that they could be made by a bot. I suspect one of his goals in life is to earn a Kook award, a feat that would insult the true Kooks.
I don't recall anyone here disputing that outgassing exists and that it is a serious concern in space exploration, or that NASA uses specially modified the cameras. After all, these are well-documented facts.
Rich claimed "NASA strips all their cameras" because of "outgassing." He has failed to support this outrageous claim.
If Rich had researched the subject, he would have discovered the first camera taken into space was an Ansco Autoset that John Glenn toted aboard FRIENDSHIP 7.
Wally Schirra toted a Hasselblad 550C aboard SIGMA 7. NASA claims the camera was "unmodified," and Hassleblad claims "Schirra stripped the leatherette from the body of the Hasselblad and painted its metal surface black in order to minimize reflections."
-sources- http://history.nasa.gov/apollo_photo.html http://www.hasselbladusa.com/about-hasselblad/hasselblad-in-space/in-the-beginni ng.aspx
TR
Bill - 23 Dec 2006 19:05 GMT >> There's also the little matter that the link he posted refers to a >> camera [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much > over the last 40 years, right? A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
They are not in zero gravity, and they are not in pure oxygen.
As for outgassing with cameras, try reading:
http://outgassing.nasa.gov/
But please don't try to think...you give everyone else a headache.
 Signature Happy Holidays!
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 23 Dec 2006 23:19 GMT > They are not in zero gravity, and they are not in pure oxygen. Well, they may not be in a pure oxygen atmosphere nowadays, but they sure are in "zero gravity" while in orbit. No? [not that I see any connection between "outgassing" and zero gravity, but never mind...]
J. Clarke - 24 Dec 2006 00:00 GMT On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 15:19:06 -0800, achilleaslazarides wrote:
>> They are not in zero gravity, and they are not in pure oxygen. > > Well, they may not be in a pure oxygen atmosphere nowadays, but they > sure are in "zero gravity" while in orbit. No? [not that I see any > connection between "outgassing" and zero gravity, but never mind...] The distinction between "free fall" and zero gravity is significant in some types of engineering and research activities--the term "microgravity" is sometimes used to denote that there are still observable gravitational effects. However people who make that distinction in ordinary conversation are generally either being pedantic or trying to show everybody how smart they are. Not that it has anything to do with outgassing.
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Bill - 24 Dec 2006 00:38 GMT >> They are not in zero gravity, and they are not in pure oxygen. > > Well, they may not be in a pure oxygen atmosphere nowadays, but they > sure are in "zero gravity" while in orbit. No? [not that I see any > connection between "outgassing" and zero gravity, but never mind...] Not exactly. It's a common misunderstanding of gravity.
In low earth orbit (LEO), objects like the space shuttle and station feel the effects of gravity at nearly the same strength as at the surface of Earth. But they are in a state of free-fall around the earth and they never truly escape the gravity of Earth. They experience "zero-g" which is the feeling of weightlessness due to zero or near-zero reaction force to gravity.
It's similar to what many people might consider "zero gravity", but in reality there is no such thing that we know of yet (except in sci-fi movies).
Even if you were in a space ship a million miles from any planetary body, you would still experience the forces of gravity from Earth and every other body of mass (atoms actually) in the Universe. Gravity is limitless, but falls under the inverse-square law in relation to distance from the center of any body of mass.
Due to movies and other sources of poor science, a lot of people think that gravity quickly fades once you're out of the atmosphere or a certain distance from the surface. When in reality, it fades as you move further from the center of the Earth, so it fades as a rocket climbs into orbit, but only a very small amount at a few hundred kilometers - it's virtually the same pull in LEO as down here. It's the effect of free-fall AROUND the Earth due to angular velocity that gives the feeling of zero-g and weightlessness.
Gravity and angular velocity (not magic) is also what keeps the Moon in orbit around Earth, and the Earth in orbit around the Sun, and the Sun in orbit around the center of our galaxy called "The Milky Way".
An interesting and plausible theory is that if you could go to the center of the Earth, you would feel weightless since all of the Earths gravity would be pulling on you with the same force in all directions.
Pretty neat stuff, huh?
:-)
 Signature Happy Holidays!
Paul J Gans - 24 Dec 2006 03:45 GMT >>> They are not in zero gravity, and they are not in pure oxygen. >> >> Well, they may not be in a pure oxygen atmosphere nowadays, but they >> sure are in "zero gravity" while in orbit. No? [not that I see any >> connection between "outgassing" and zero gravity, but never mind...]
>Not exactly. It's a common misunderstanding of gravity.
>In low earth orbit (LEO), objects like the space shuttle and station >feel the effects of gravity at nearly the same strength as at the >surface of Earth. But they are in a state of free-fall around the >earth and they never truly escape the gravity of Earth. They >experience "zero-g" which is the feeling of weightlessness due to zero >or near-zero reaction force to gravity.
>It's similar to what many people might consider "zero gravity", but in >reality there is no such thing that we know of yet (except in sci-fi >movies).
>Even if you were in a space ship a million miles from any planetary >body, you would still experience the forces of gravity from Earth and >every other body of mass (atoms actually) in the Universe. Gravity is >limitless, but falls under the inverse-square law in relation to >distance from the center of any body of mass.
>Due to movies and other sources of poor science, a lot of people think >that gravity quickly fades once you're out of the atmosphere or a [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the effect of free-fall AROUND the Earth due to angular velocity that >gives the feeling of zero-g and weightlessness.
>Gravity and angular velocity (not magic) is also what keeps the Moon >in orbit around Earth, and the Earth in orbit around the Sun, and the >Sun in orbit around the center of our galaxy called "The Milky Way".
>An interesting and plausible theory is that if you could go to the >center of the Earth, you would feel weightless since all of the Earths >gravity would be pulling on you with the same force in all directions.
>Pretty neat stuff, huh?
>:-) Sounds like rocket science to me....
:-)
 Signature --- Paul J. Gans
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Dec 2006 12:48 GMT > >> They are not in zero gravity, and they are not in pure oxygen. > > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > experience "zero-g" which is the feeling of weightlessness due to zero > or near-zero reaction force to gravity. Actually, free fall in a uniform field and a complete absence of gravity are exactly equivalent. If the gravity is caused by a planet (thus not globally uniform), then, as we fall towards the centre, two objects floating some distance from each other will slowly get closer. This is irrelevant for objects in orbit, who are falling freely but never actually change their distance from the centre of the force (or don't change it much, if they're in elliptical orbits), so that for them the field is uniform. If you're inside one of these things, there is no way to find out if you're in orbit or in zero gravity (not even in principle: it just cannot be done, unless you change height, when you could in principle detect it by measuring the separation of two floating bodies).
The equivalence of free fall and gravity, and a lot of thinking, would in principle lead one to general relativity (but I don't think that many people work it out for themselves even when given strong clues in courses at university).
If you are about to tell me that this is wrong, take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalence_principle or, indeed, any introductory physics textbook.
(there are distinctions in practice, as I said above, and others I did not mention, but in general a physicist would just say that they're equivalent).
> An interesting and plausible theory is that if you could go to the > center of the Earth, you would feel weightless since all of the Earths > gravity would be pulling on you with the same force in all directions. It's not a theory, it's an obvious conclusion [well, to be pedantic, you'd still be falling towards the moon, together with the rest of the earth!]. Also, if you start digging into the earth, then the gravitational force you would feel would be proportional to r, not 1/r^2 (r is the distance from the centre). This using the expression F=G m_1 m_2/r^2 for two point masses (and integrating over the whole sphere).
But, just to make it clear again, I cannot see what this has to do with outgassing!
And Merry Christmas!
> Pretty neat stuff, huh? > > :-) Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 24 Dec 2006 14:21 GMT > Actually, free fall in a uniform field and a complete absence of > gravity are exactly equivalent. If the gravity is caused by a planet [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > you could in principle detect it by measuring the separation of two > floating bodies). Or just look out the window of your spacecraft and you can determine that you are in orbit, and not in a uniform gravitational field ;-).
> The equivalence of free fall and gravity, and a lot of thinking, would > in principle lead one to general relativity (but I don't think that [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > not mention, but in general a physicist would just say that they're > equivalent). The force is equivalent, not that you can't figure out the difference. All you need to do is look out the window, assuming you have one.
Roger
J. Clarke - 24 Dec 2006 16:30 GMT >> Actually, free fall in a uniform field and a complete absence of >> gravity are exactly equivalent. If the gravity is caused by a planet [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > difference. All you need to do is look out the window, > assuming you have one. Actually the force is not equivalent. The principle of equivalence applies to uniform gravitational fields. The Earth's gravitational field is not uniform.
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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Dec 2006 20:04 GMT > Actually the force is not equivalent. The principle of equivalence > applies to uniform gravitational fields. The Earth's gravitational field > is not uniform. It is locally uniform (well, all fields are). You need to do extended (in space) experiments to detect the nonuniformity. If your experimental precision is fixed, then the more nonuniform the field is, the larger the spatial extend that you need to use to detect the nonuniformity. I thought I made this clear in my original post.
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Dec 2006 20:03 GMT > > Actually, free fall in a uniform field and a complete absence of > > gravity are exactly equivalent. If the gravity is caused by a planet [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > determine that you are in orbit, and not in a uniform > gravitational field ;-). But had it really been uniform (globally), looking out could tell you that you're accelerating downwards in a field, or that something else is accelerating upwards. Of course, if the something else is a planet, it's a good bet that you're the one being accelerated :) And even for a nonuniform field, you're using non-gravitational information to conclude that you're being accelerated in a field rather than being in a field-free region.
> > The equivalence of free fall and gravity, and a lot of thinking, would > > in principle lead one to general relativity (but I don't think that [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > difference. All you need to do is look out the window, > assuming you have one. No Roger, they are locally completely equivalent in all observable properties. Looking out the window isn't a local experiment. Also, this is like saying that Dutch and English are the same language because you saw drawings by Dutchmen and Englishmen and understood what they were showing :) [I know it is hard to see the connection between this and what we're discussing, but it's there:) It involves using one type of data to draw conclusions about another form of communication: visual data-verbal communication, and visual data+context--gravitational interaction as a means of communicating, in the sense of detecting a grav field by measurements of quantities related to gravity].
And talking about force in this context is simply bad terminology, because then you need to make a distinction between a real force (I push you) and a fictitious one (due to using an accelerated frame of reference). Extremely inelegant (and should give a hint that we're missing something; in this case, the equivalence between gravity and acceleration). This is ignoring GR; in that case, it's not bad terminology but simply wrong (well, assuming that GR, or in any case some geometrical description of gravity is correct, which does seem to be the case as far as anybody can tell).
Anyway, their local equivalence, in the sense of being unable to determine whether you're in a field or being accelerated by doing local experiments, is indisputable, and all I was saying.
Merry Christmas!
Achilleas
J. Clarke - 24 Dec 2006 22:30 GMT On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:03:07 -0800, achilleaslazarides wrote:
>> > Actually, free fall in a uniform field and a complete absence of >> > gravity are exactly equivalent. If the gravity is caused by a planet [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > determine whether you're in a field or being accelerated by doing local > experiments, is indisputable, and all I was saying. "Local equivalence" means at a level down on the quantum scale or below. It's a valid assumption when using calculus to perform computations, but in LEO any container large enough to hold a human is large enough for the nonuniformity of the field to be demonstrated.
> Merry Christmas! > > Achilleas
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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Dec 2006 23:06 GMT > On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:03:07 -0800, achilleaslazarides wrote: > > Anyway, their local equivalence, in the sense of being unable to [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > in LEO any container large enough to hold a human is large enough for the > nonuniformity of the field to be demonstrated. No, it does not refer to the quantum scale in this context. I don't see much point in continuing to argue about this, just look up some books on GR and you'll see what local equivalence means. If you wish to continue saying that no, it means something else, well, I can't really convince you otherwise, can I? And anyway, mixing GR and QFTs is hardly a well-understood procedure. Whether spacetime is continuous or discrete (which seems to be what you're thinking of here) is another story (personally, I have no clue, and I'm pleased to say that nobody else does either).
By the way, the "discreteness" of QM does not mean that calculous can't be used (eg the Schrodinger eqn is a PDE), just that it is used in a different way. Of course, this may well be that we're used to using PDEs so we express everything like that (after all, the most important property of any quantum system is the space of basis vectors, which in the position space Schrodinger eqn picture comes in by the side door, so to speak).
Anyway, you're right that the effects of the nonuniformity can be detected if one wants to do so. I just meant that for most practical purposes, if I'm in a reasonable sized spaceship then I may as well assume I'm in zero gravity. That I can use ultraprecise measurements to find out that I'm not is in fact true, as you say, but wasn't my point.
I think we're rather far off topic in a newsgroup on photography.
Anyway. Merry Christmas!
J. Clarke - 25 Dec 2006 01:00 GMT On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 15:06:24 -0800, achilleaslazarides wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Dec 2006 12:03:07 -0800, achilleaslazarides wrote: >> > Anyway, their local equivalence, in the sense of being unable to [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > I think we're rather far off topic in a newsgroup on photography. I think you need to see a neurologist about whatever it is that has you fixated on this excessively literal use of language.
Also take a course in "advanced calculus" or "real analysis" and find out how calculus works, then you'll understand the point of local equivalence and why it is "local".
Waiting with bated breath for your next attempt at showing off.
> Anyway. Merry Christmas!
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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 25 Dec 2006 01:32 GMT > I think you need to see a neurologist about whatever it is that has you > fixated on this excessively literal use of language. Thanks!
> Also take a course in "advanced calculus" or "real analysis" and find out > how calculus works, then you'll understand the point of local equivalence > and why it is "local". Thanks for the suggestion, I'll go and find a textbook and read up!
> Waiting with bated breath for your next attempt at showing off. OK. Nice to know I have an audience. Keep watching, coming soon!
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 25 Dec 2006 00:47 GMT >>>Actually, free fall in a uniform field and a complete absence of >>>gravity are exactly equivalent. If the gravity is caused by a planet [quoted text clipped - 62 lines] > determine whether you're in a field or being accelerated by doing local > experiments, is indisputable, and all I was saying. There is a simple way to determine if you are in a gravitational field or being accelerated, even if there wasn't a planet nearby. By looking out the window, I meant do something like observe the Doppler shift of distant stars. In a gravitational field the Doppler shift will not change with time. If you were accelerating (uniform field or not), the Doppler shift will change with time. You also seemed to miss the wink, ;-) at the end of my "look out the window" post.
Roger
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 25 Dec 2006 01:26 GMT Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) wrote:.
> There is a simple way to determine if you are in a gravitational > field or being accelerated, even if there wasn't a planet [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > will change with time. You also seemed to miss the wink, ;-) > at the end of my "look out the window" post. Well, a) I was, to repeat myself, talking about local measurements; a measurement of the Doppler shift can hardly be considered local; this led me to b) Ignore the wink (I saw it, but ignored it). A diminishing of one's sense of humour is a sure sign of taking usenet too seriously!
Regards, Achilleas
Alan Browne - 24 Dec 2006 14:55 GMT > It's not a theory, it's an obvious conclusion [well, to be pedantic, > you'd still be falling towards the moon, together with the rest of the [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > F=G m_1 m_2/r^2 for two point masses (and integrating over the whole > sphere). The way I explain the center of the earth "0 g" is that it is no different than being in an orbit around the earth in a spaceship, just that the walls are much thicker...
(Okay, then there's all that mass, but in all spherical directions so it cancels out at the center ... but it's the same with the mass of the space ship walls, pretty much cancelling out, if less evenly in practical terms).
 Signature -- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.
achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 24 Dec 2006 20:43 GMT > > It's not a theory, it's an obvious conclusion [well, to be pedantic, > > you'd still be falling towards the moon, together with the rest of the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > space ship walls, pretty much cancelling out, if less evenly in > practical terms). Yes, exactly: all the earth's mass is uniformly distributed around you and the pull cancels out. imagine splitting up the earth into tiny little cubes; each pulls you in one direction with some force. But, since it's a sphere and you're in the centre, there exists another, identical little cube diametrically opposed to this one; their pulls cancel. The same argument holds for all cubes, so the force cancels!
Actually, for the hell of it, I worked out the following. A gravitational force F [vector] can be expressed as the gradient of a scalar potential: grad V. This V satisfied div grad V=rho(r) (rho is the local density; I ignore a constant of proportionality as I don't know it, although it would be trivial to work out by compaing to the more familiar F=G m1 m2/r^2; but I don't have paper here and anyway am too lazy). This div grad V basically means the second derivative wrt x+second derivative wrt y+second derivative wrt z of V. That is, it is the laplacian.
Now, consider any hollow object; that is, rho(r) is zero everywhere except on some surface (I take it to be infinitely thin, although this is not important), on which it is a constant. That means that everywhere except on that surface, the laplacian is zero; thus, it is not possible for all three derivs to vanish at the same time, that is, there is no maximum or minimum at any point (except perhaps on the surace, where the laplacian doesn't vanish).
Outside the object, it is obvious (and may also be calculated) that the field simply monotonically decays to zero. Thus, there's a force towards the object outside it (gravitational attraction).
Now specialise to a sphere.
Inside, think of this: First, assume V isn't constant inside (ie there is a force). there can be no max or min, as we said; so only saddle points.. But, by symmetry, this will not occur. Thus, V is a constant inside (and the force is zero everywhere inside a hollow sphere)!
A sphere of finite thickness can be constructed by a limiting procedure involving spheres of infinitesimal thickness (everything is linear, so this works).
Similar arguments can be constructed for cylinders, ellipsoids etc.
Of course, what you're talking about (ie the earth) isn't a hollow object, so what I said is irrelevant. Sorry. I lose control of myself easily.
To get back to the topic, I believe that most plastics do not outgas (but, frankly, I have no clue about this).
Merry Christmas!
Buy_Sell - 24 Dec 2006 22:20 GMT achilleaslazari...@yahoo.co.uk
If you want to get really deep into magnetism, gravity and so on, have a look at this fellow's website.
http://www.larryspring.com/
Tom Ross - 23 Dec 2006 19:16 GMT >> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:16:12 -0800, mark.thomas.7 wrote: >> [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] >Yes, the zero gravity, pure oxygen environments have changed SO much >over the last 40 years, right? The way we deal with this enviromment HAS changed over the past 40 years. The plastics used today has also changed over the past 40 years. Many of the techniques, technology and material used today did not exist 40 years ago.
IIFC, the astronauts shot Ektachrome, which has a polymer (read PLASTIC) base. Or did NASA replace that with metal, too?
BTW, is this a continuation of your "cameras cause prostate cancer" bit of lunacy from earlier in the year?
TR
Ken Lucke - 23 Dec 2006 21:18 GMT <snippage>
> BTW, is this a continuation of your "cameras cause prostate cancer" > bit of lunacy from earlier in the year? > > TR Oooo.... I must have missed THAT one. Not sorry to have, but just "must have"...
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Alan Browne - 24 Dec 2006 15:53 GMT > Oooo.... I must have missed THAT one. Not sorry to have, but just > "must have"... Ignoring RichA posts should be the "must do" of this NG in 2007.
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Ken Lucke - 24 Dec 2006 15:56 GMT > > Oooo.... I must have missed THAT one. Not sorry to have, but just > > "must have"... > > Ignoring RichA posts should be the "must do" of this NG in 2007. I'll buy that for a nickel! :^)
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
J. Clarke - 23 Dec 2006 23:30 GMT >>> On Sat, 23 Dec 2006 03:16:12 -0800, mark.thomas.7 wrote: >>> [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > years. Many of the techniques, technology and material used today did > not exist 40 years ago. The way that NASA has dealt with the "pure oxygen environment" is to do away with it. The Shuttle normally maintains a sea level cabin and 60 percent nitrogen.
In any case if NASA "strips all their cameras" I should like to see a reference to their doing so that is not 40 years old.
> IIFC, the astronauts shot Ektachrome, which has a polymer (read PLASTIC) > base. Or did NASA replace that with metal, too? > > BTW, is this a continuation of your "cameras cause prostate cancer" bit > of lunacy from earlier in the year? Somebody needs to buy the boy a life.
> TR
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Richard H. - 23 Dec 2006 18:45 GMT > This site has a picture of the stripped camera. > http://tinyurl.com/ybs7c9 A few dacades more current... http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/crew-14/hires/iss014e08795.jpg
John Bean - 23 Dec 2006 18:54 GMT >> This site has a picture of the stripped camera. >> http://tinyurl.com/ybs7c9 > >A few dacades more current... >http://spaceflight.nasa.gov/gallery/images/station/crew-14/hires/iss014e08795.jpg Wow, do I see some translucent *metal* there or is it just plastic? However do they stop it from outgassing? ;-)
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RichA - 25 Dec 2006 03:20 GMT Found this:
Kelly Flanigan Photo.net Patron Prolific Poster, aug 22, 2004; 07:57 p.m. "Outgassing" increases at higher temperatures. Outgassing also radically increases as the air pressure is lowered. In spacecraft materials; many plastics are taboo; ie totally banned. JPL's labs did alot of studies on outgassing of plastics and other materials in the 1960s and before.
In a total vacuum; the mass of an object will drop with time; as the gunk outgasses. The mass loss fraction rate is dependent on the surface area to volume of the object. The actual rate in "micro gunk" per hour is dependent on surface area. An illegal plastic was used on the space telescope; and one optic got fogged.
The fogging also happens on the inside of a new car windshield; the gunk outgasses from the plastic dashboard. In a hot closed car; a black dash can reach 100C or higher. The mold releases used in molding outgass; plus the actual plastic dies to. There are many many thousands of plastic grades; outgasing varies alot.
In the vacuum of space; outgassing is a total disaster around optics and optical windows and ports. Metal parts have outgasing from micro fissures and cracks; that retain machining oils and even ones finderprint/oils. In castings; porosity creates a haven for holding gunk. Typical spacecraft failure modes are some Bozo subsitutes a different wire; small washer; and the QA police miss the bogey.
In consumer items; the wrong type of grease in a relubed lens can cause outgassing; fogging of a "repaired/CLAed" lens. Spaceflight optics use very special greases; with wide temperature ranges; and little outgassing.
Unquestionably Confused - 25 Dec 2006 04:56 GMT > Found this: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > alot of studies on outgassing of plastics and other materials in the > 1960s and before. There you go. I guess that settles it. A "prolific poster" who cannot spell consistently has spoken.
> In a total vacuum; the mass of an object will drop with time; as the > gunk outgasses. The mass loss fraction rate is dependent on the surface > area to volume of the object. The actual rate in "micro gunk" per hour > is dependent on surface area. An illegal plastic was used on the space > telescope; and one optic got fogged. "micro gunk" is a technical term which I'm sure appears in all the better scientific tomes. Imagine my surprise to learn that the amount of outgassing increases in proportion to the surface area. Amazing, simply amazing.
> The fogging also happens on the inside of a new car windshield; the > gunk outgasses from the plastic dashboard. In a hot closed car; a black > dash can reach 100C or higher. The mold releases used in molding > outgass; plus the actual plastic dies to. There are many many thousands > of plastic grades; outgasing varies alot. Since I've yet to see photos of a plastic dashboard in a space vehicle, I wonder how germane this is to the question.
Amazing try, but sorry, no banana, RichA. Perhaps someone should have asked you for a CREDIBLE source.
RichA - 25 Dec 2006 08:57 GMT > > Found this: > > [quoted text |
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