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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006

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F Number

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alertjean@rediffmail.com - 21 Dec 2006 06:34 GMT
Photographers,
I have got some trouble with F-number terminology.I would like to know
whether a particular number say F/4.5 means same(i.e it allows same
quantity of light) for ALL lenses at a particular focal length.

So how can I compare between an image  taken with  a Tamron 18-200 F3.5
- F6.3 at F4.5 100mm (29-320 on a Rebel XT)  to  one taken with a Fuji
S5500  5.7-57 true focal length (37 - 370 35mm equivalent)

Any idea ?

regards
Jean
Steve Wolfe - 21 Dec 2006 07:06 GMT
> Photographers,
> I have got some trouble with F-number terminology.I would like to know
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> - F6.3 at F4.5 100mm (29-320 on a Rebel XT)  to  one taken with a Fuji
> S5500  5.7-57 true focal length (37 - 370 35mm equivalent)

 The f-number is independent of the focal length.  Actually, to be more
correct, the calculation of the f-number has already taken into account the
focal length in relation to the diameter of the effective aperture.  The
effect is that f/5.6 is f/5.6, whether you're at 20mm or 200mm, and your
exposure settings remain the same.

 There will be some difference in the actual transmissivity of various
lenses, but the difference is, for the most part, negligible.

steve
Alan Browne - 21 Dec 2006 11:16 GMT
> Photographers,
> I have got some trouble with F-number terminology.I would like to know
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> - F6.3 at F4.5 100mm (29-320 on a Rebel XT)  to  one taken with a Fuji
> S5500  5.7-57 true focal length (37 - 370 35mm equivalent)

For a given f/ number and shutter period, the same quantity of light
reaches the film / sensor regardless of focal length.

The f/number is the ratio of the "opening" diameter to the focal length.
 It is an elegant way to get us away from worrying about how much light
reaches the film for a given focal length and aperture diameter.  Since
the area of the aperture increases as a function of the square of the
diameter, then a doubling in diameter, quadruples the amount of light.
Doing the math for this based on focal lenght / diameter would be an
ongoing pain in the mental butt as different focal lengths are used, so
f/ numbers allow the photog to think in terms of 'doublings' and
'halvings' with each full stop of aperture, shutter speed or ISO
setting. (to put it very simply).  This also allows fast 'trade space'
(reciprocity) decisions when considering depth of field and shutter
speed tradeoffs.

The only caveats to this are:

i: that some lens formulations are more or less transmissive.  But the
difference is not signifcant in the great majority of lenses.

ii: a very few lenses also have "transmission stops" indicationg how
much light reaches the film.  With such lenses (the Minolta 135 STF
f/2.8 [T4.5] being a good example), the depth of field is controlled by
the aperture, and the exposure is controlled by the T-stop.  (The T-stop
is always at least as slow as the aperture.  For the cited lens, the DOF
could be as shallow as f/2.8 but could never be exposed faster then
f/4.5)  [The benefit of this lens is extraordinarly smooth out-of-focus
backgrounds and tack sharp in-focus subject].

iii: in digital sensors, from camera model to camera model, there is
significant (2/3 of a stop range, perhaps more) difference in actual
sensitivity according to ISO number.  IOW one camera's ISO 100 might be
as sensitive as another camera's ISO 160.

Pedantic note: the actual calulation used by the manufacturer is
"effective" diameter as for most lenses the aperture is not round but a
polygon defined by the straight aperture blades.  Some lenses use curved
blades so that through a range of stops the aperture is nearly circular.

Cheers,
Alan

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gpaleo - 21 Dec 2006 11:29 GMT
...........................................................................
> ii: a very few lenses also have "transmission stops" indicationg how much
> light reaches the film.  With such lenses (the Minolta 135 STF f/2.8
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> [The benefit of this lens is extraordinarly smooth out-of-focus
> backgrounds and tack sharp in-focus subject].
...................................................................................
> Cheers,
> Alan

Damn, learn something new every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Alan Browne - 21 Dec 2006 12:35 GMT
> Damn, learn something new every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's what makes life fun...

Cheers,
Alan

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acl - 21 Dec 2006 16:16 GMT
> For a given f/ number and shutter period, the same quantity of light

...per unit area...

> reaches the film / sensor regardless of focal length.

If I have an f/2.8 lens, the total amount of light collected by the
sensor depends on the area of the sensor (assuming the sensor is smaller
than the image projected by the lens).
DoN. Nichols - 22 Dec 2006 06:37 GMT
According to acl  <achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk>:

> > For a given f/ number and shutter period, the same quantity of light
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sensor depends on the area of the sensor (assuming the sensor is smaller
> than the image projected by the lens).

    The total -- yes.  But what matters is the light per unit area,
unless you are using the lens to illuminate a solar battery. :-)

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Joseph Meehan - 21 Dec 2006 12:15 GMT
> Photographers,
> I have got some trouble with F-number terminology.I would like to know
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> regards
> Jean

   While it is a slight simplification, you can say that the f stop is a
measure of how much light (per unit of time) comes though the lens.  In
almost all photographic situations this will work fine.

   Adding a filter or a lens with a lot more glass and glass surfaces will
reduce the total amount of light slightly and the f stop does not account
for this at all.  The f stop assumes perfect transmission with no losses.
Usually the losses for these factors are very low and too low to measure
under normal photographic work.

Signature

Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 21 Dec 2006 15:19 GMT
>>Photographers,
>>I have got some trouble with F-number terminology.I would like to know
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> measure of how much light (per unit of time) comes though the lens.  In
> almost all photographic situations this will work fine.

That is incorrect.  Aperture defines how much light is collected
per unit time.  Focal length spreads out that light in the focal
plane giving a constant illumination per unit area for a given
f/stop.

>     Adding a filter or a lens with a lot more glass and glass surfaces will
> reduce the total amount of light slightly and the f stop does not account
> for this at all.  The f stop assumes perfect transmission with no losses.
> Usually the losses for these factors are very low and too low to measure
> under normal photographic work.

The f/stop "assumes" nothing.  Photographers assume things,
f/stops don't  ;-).  F/stop is a definition of lens focal
length divided by aperture, and is independent of the amount
of light, whether you added a filter, or the sun sets.

BUT BUT BUT...with digital cameras there is another effect
when comparing BETWEEN cameras.  Different cameras have
different sized sensors, so the unit area changes (the area
of a pixel).  Consider an f/4 lens on two cameras, one
like a DSLR with 8-micron pixels, and a small P&S with
2-micron pixels.  Assume both cameras have the same megapixel
count and same field of view and same f/stop.  Do both
cameras record the same amount of light in the same exposure
time?  No.  The small camera has a smaller aperture (4 times
smaller: 8 microns/2 microns =4) and 16 times less light
per pixel!  This is basic physics and is the reason why
small P&S cameras produce noisy images compared to a DSLR.

Further reading:
 The f/ratio Myth and Digital Cameras
 http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/f-ratio_myth

 Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
 Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter
 (see Figure 6 for a plot called unity gain ISO which
 is dependent on the pixel size.)

Roger
Joseph Meehan - 21 Dec 2006 17:18 GMT
..

>>     While it is a slight simplification, you can say that the f stop
>> is a measure of how much light (per unit of time) comes though the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> plane giving a constant illumination per unit area for a given
> f/stop.

   Very true, but I did say it was a simplified explanation.

>>     Adding a filter or a lens with a lot more glass and glass
>> surfaces will reduce the total amount of light slightly and the f
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> length divided by aperture, and is independent of the amount
> of light, whether you added a filter, or the sun sets.

   OK, again I simplified and you are right.  It is not the f-stop that
assumes anything, it is us who fail to take into consideration the other
(minor) factors that reduce the actual available light slightly.

> BUT BUT BUT...with digital cameras there is another effect
> when comparing BETWEEN cameras.  Different cameras have
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> per pixel!  This is basic physics and is the reason why
> small P&S cameras produce noisy images compared to a DSLR.

   I hope our readers read the above very carefully.  On a quick read it is
wrong, however on a careful read it is right.

   Roger clearly uses the phrase "the same amount of light"  He is correct
that each camera will have a different amount of light energy striking its
sensor.  The larger sensor will receive more total light energy.  Just don't
confuse this with the total amount of energy per area.  Roger also specifies
digital vs. film as he should (Roger appears to be a much more careful
writer than I) as this brings in a whole different issue with different
sensors.

> Further reading:
>  The f/ratio Myth and Digital Cameras
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> Roger

   Thanks for providing additional technical detail.

Signature

Joseph Meehan

Dia 's Muire duit

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 21 Dec 2006 18:34 GMT
>>BUT BUT BUT...with digital cameras there is another effect
>>when comparing BETWEEN cameras.  Different cameras have
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> writer than I) as this brings in a whole different issue with different
> sensors.

Joseph,
That is an accusation I'm not often accused of (being a better
writer) ;-).  Thanks.  Too often I get too technical and lose
people.  Your clarification is good.  And do note I put in a
wink ;-).

What happens with digital cameras is the
camera manufacturers define the number
of photons collected for each camera differently so we see
the same numbers in our image files.  For example, in the
small pixel size camera, a smaller number of photons gives
maximum signal (e.g. number 255 in an 8-bit image) than a larger
pixel size camera.  A specific example: a Canon S70 with 2.3
micron pixel pitch produces images where 255 in an 8-bit
image corresponds to about 4,300 electrons, but in a 1D Mark II
with 8.2 micron pixel pitch gets about 53,000 electrons
at number 255 in the 8-bit image, when both cameras are set
to ISO 100.  This happens when using the same f/ratio and
same f/stop on both cameras.  That means the large pixel camera
collects 12 times the light even when working at the same
f/ratio and exposure time (53,000 photons/4,300 photons ~ 12).

>>Further reading:
>> The f/ratio Myth and Digital Cameras
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
>     Thanks for providing additional technical detail.

Roger
Paul Furman - 22 Dec 2006 06:27 GMT
All good stuff above but let me take another stab at clarifying (feel
free to correct if I'm astray).

A smaller format takes the same amount of exposure time at a given
f-stop as a larger format but because it's smaller, there is less
detail/dynamic range/more noise.

Also the smaller format has more depth of field so f/2.8 on a pocket
digicam is fine for shooting a group of people, f/2.8 on a large format
field camera is only going to get the eyes of one person in focus, even
their nose and ears will be blurred.

This is all assuming the final print is the same size.

Oh, one more thing, a shorter focal length requires a shorter exposure
time because it's gathering light from a wider field of view it's
gathering more light than a long telephoto lens.

Now to tie that back to format size, large format requires a longer
focal length for the same field of view so it requires longer exposure
times to achieve the same depth of field but it captures more detail,
wider dynamic range and less noise/grain.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 23 Dec 2006 05:38 GMT
> All good stuff above but let me take another stab at clarifying (feel
> free to correct if I'm astray).
>
> A smaller format takes the same amount of exposure time at a given
> f-stop as a larger format but because it's smaller, there is less
> detail/dynamic range/more noise.

Yes, I agree.  While the exposure time is the same, it is
because of the way manufactures have defined ISO.  The smaller format
camera (assuming the same megapixel count) has more noise because
there are less photons collected in each pixel.  So in a sense,
the smaller format digital camera does not get the same exposure,
even when at the same f/stop and exposure time.  Manufacturers define
ISO as relative to the full capacity of a pixel, so even though the
percentage full is the same, the total amount of photons is less.
Think of buckets that are half full: the larger bucket holds
more water.

> Also the smaller format has more depth of field so f/2.8 on a pocket
> digicam is fine for shooting a group of people, f/2.8 on a large format
> field camera is only going to get the eyes of one person in focus, even
> their nose and ears will be blurred.

Yes, I agree.

> This is all assuming the final print is the same size.
>
> Oh, one more thing, a shorter focal length requires a shorter exposure
> time because it's gathering light from a wider field of view it's
> gathering more light than a long telephoto lens.

I disagree.  It depends on f/ratio, not focal length.  Consider
a 20 mm f/2 lens versus a 200 mm f/2 lens.  Both give the same
exposure: the longer focal length spreads the light out more
on the focal plane, but the lens aperture is greater, so
it collects more light.  Then consider point sources: the 200mm
lens collects more light so records fainter stars with the
same exposure compared to the smaller lens.  (Stars are not spread
out, unless your pixels are so small that diffraction spreads the light
over multiple pixels.)

> Now to tie that back to format size, large format requires a longer
> focal length for the same field of view so it requires longer exposure
> times to achieve the same depth of field but it captures more detail,
> wider dynamic range and less noise/grain.

This gets complex.  With digital cameras, one needs to define
the megapixel count too.  If the megapixel count stays the
same, then the larger format camera would record the same
detail.  If you keep the pixel size constant and increase area
then the larger format has more pixels and records more detail.
If you keep the megapixel count the same, then if you also
keep aperture the same, and only increase focal length, then
the larger format records the same depth of field in the
same exposure time with the same number of photons recorded
in the image so it also has the same noise levels.
This is explained more in:
 The Depth-of-Field Myth and Digital Cameras
 http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/dof_myth

Roger
Paul Furman - 23 Dec 2006 17:43 GMT
Roger N. Clark wrote:

>> Oh, one more thing, a shorter focal length requires a shorter exposure
>> time because it's gathering light from a wider field of view it's
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> on the focal plane, but the lens aperture is greater, so
> it collects more light.

Hmmm, OK I see you are right but the way I'm thinking, if you look at
the exposure time needed at two focal lengths for hand held shooting,
the 20mm lens can be used as slow as 1/20 sec & the 200mm lens can't be
shot at slower than 1/200 sec. as a rule of thumb. I should have said
the wider lens is useable with a shorter hand held exposure time because
the objects are less magnified shake blur is less noticeable.

>> Now to tie that back to format size, large format requires a longer
>> focal length for the same field of view so it requires longer exposure
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> same, then the larger format camera would record the same
> detail.

But more dynamic range and less noise.

> If you keep the pixel size constant and increase area
> then the larger format has more pixels and records more detail.

But the same dynamic range and noise, although the noise is less
noticeable because it's a finer grain.

> If you keep the megapixel count the same, then if you also
> keep aperture the same, and only increase focal length, then
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Roger
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 24 Dec 2006 04:22 GMT
> Roger N. Clark wrote:
>
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
> the wider lens is useable with a shorter hand held exposure time because
> the objects are less magnified shake blur is less noticeable.

OK, I agree.  This is another important thing to consider.

>>> Now to tie that back to format size, large format requires a longer
>>> focal length for the same field of view so it requires longer
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> But more dynamic range and less noise.

Yes.

>> If you keep the pixel size constant and increase area
>> then the larger format has more pixels and records more detail.
>
> But the same dynamic range and noise, although the noise is less
> noticeable because it's a finer grain.

I agree.

Roger
Christopher Campbell - 21 Dec 2006 18:50 GMT
> Photographers,
> I have got some trouble with F-number terminology.I would like to know
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> - F6.3 at F4.5 100mm (29-320 on a Rebel XT)  to  one taken with a Fuji
> S5500  5.7-57 true focal length (37 - 370 35mm equivalent)

Just to add a little confusion to what the others have said, the f number
printed on a lens is not necessarily accurate. Some zooms, although they may
have only a single f number printed on them, may actually vary somewhat
throughout their range by as much as a stop.
 
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