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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / March 2005[Maxxum 7D] -shutter lag
I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) I had shot this group (and other sports) several times and with my Maxxum 9 I had a good feeling for the timing. The shutter lag on the 9 is about 50 - 55ms. With the Maxxum 7D, the delay seems a bit longer (not really perceptible in human terms) but the results were well behind the play. It's hard to quantify without instrumentation, but I would guess that it's closer to 100ms for the Maxxum 7D. (I was shooting manual focus, manual exp., A/S was off). Anyone else? Cheers, Alan  Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my >ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >quantify without instrumentation, but I would guess that it's closer to >100ms for the Maxxum 7D. You can measure shutter lag using a turntable that revolves at a known speed, put a white marker on it and fire when the marker is at 12'o-clock. Take a look at the photo to see how much rotation occurred between the button press and the image capture. Grab calculator and do some math... Another way is to run a digital stopwatch and fire it at a known point (say 10 seconds). Because you are predicting the start point, your reaction times don't really matter. Actually, scrap that and use this website (hmm, it's calibrated to capture lag up to 2seconds! - maybe the turntable would be better...) http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp -- Owamanga! http://www.pbase.com/owamanga > You can measure shutter lag using a turntable that revolves at a known > speed, put a white marker on it and fire when the marker is at > 12'o-clock. Take a look at the photo to see how much rotation occurred > between the button press and the image capture. Grab calculator and do > some math... Doh! I'll try that at 78 RPM (468°/sec) I should get a fairly accurate measure. I'll do a few on film with the Max 9 as well. (Hmm, I think my turntable only does 33 and 45 ... should still be pretty good at 45). Thanks!! Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. > You can measure shutter lag using a turntable that revolves at a known > speed, put a white marker on it and fire when the marker is at > 12'o-clock. Take a look at the photo to see how much rotation occurred > between the button press and the image capture. Grab calculator and do > some math... example: http://www.aliasimages.com/images/PICT0513a.jpg From the spreadsheet. 45 RPM Phot Angle Time (ms) 511 53 196 512 58 215 513 57.5 213 514 53 196 515 60 222 516 60 222 Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter depressed halfway beofore release. This SUCKS. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. > Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter > depressed halfway beofore release. > > This SUCKS. www.google.com: "personal equation" measurement Did you remove your reflex action time? A better setup might be to rig the camera to take a picture when a beam of light is broken: just drop something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the delay. >>Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter >>depressed halfway beofore release. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the > delay. I don't have the equipment for that. You'll just have to go by my sighted firings of a near depressed shutter (and the low variance). Since I'm anticipating the crossing of the tapes, finger depressed already through most of the closing range, I doubt the human delay here is more than 25ms. (In reflex testing, the subject sees a light come on, so he can't anticipate. I can, 'cause I can see the tape approaching the reference tape). Cheers, Alan. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. > I don't have the equipment for that. You'll just have to go by my > sighted firings of a near depressed shutter (and the low variance). [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Cheers, > Alan. I just found this by goolging: From http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/MAX7/D7A12.HTM "Average (good) shutter response and cycle times. The word that comes to mind when thinking about the Konica Minolta Maxxum 7D's speed is "average." - But that's not a bad thing, given the field it's playing in. Full-autofocus shutter lag is actually faster than most d-SLRs, at about 0.27 second, although its manual focus lag is only slightly better than the full-autofocus times." You'll probably learn to compensate slightly, but you're right, it kinda sucks. [SNIP] > I don't have the equipment for that. You'll just have to go by my > sighted firings of a near depressed shutter (and the low variance). [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > anticipate. I can, 'cause I can see the tape approaching the reference > tape). That probably is a better mimic of what you are doing when you use the camera for sports anyway - you follow the action and pick your moment, rather than suddenly having player and ball magically appear before you when a moment ago there was nothing. The revolving disc isn't quite the same as following the players, but it's probably closer to a 'real life' experiment than having a light come on or triggering electronically. The latter would give results that are more truly comparable between different testers, but what you are doing probably allows you to compare between your own use of different cameras, so is probably more useful _to you_. My ha'pennyworth. Peter > That probably is a better mimic of what you are doing when you use the > camera for sports anyway - you follow the action and pick your moment, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > what you are doing probably allows you to compare between your own use of > different cameras, so is probably more useful _to you_. Except that I'm used to the one and I don't want two programs in my head. (Not that bad, I don't shoot that much sports, and at least with digital I get good feedback on my timing other than what I see in the shutter. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >> Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter >> depressed halfway beofore release. >> >> This SUCKS. Yep. >www.google.com: "personal equation" measurement > >Did you remove your reflex action time? A better setup might be to rig >the camera to take a picture when a beam of light is broken: just drop >something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the >delay. It's not a simple reflex time (230ms I read somewhere, in a test where someone responds to a expected, but unpredictable trigger), Alan was able to predict exactly when the shutter press was needed, so any human error will be very small. Off the top of my head, I can't think how to measure this (Alan will do film tests on other cameras). Whatever the time is, it's real life. Alan + Camera = 211ms and that sucks. -- Owamanga! http://www.pbase.com/owamanga > It's not a simple reflex time (230ms I read somewhere, in a test where > someone responds to a expected, but unpredictable trigger), http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm 190ms, increases with age, men are better than women, etc. > Alan was > able to predict exactly when the shutter press was needed, so any > human error will be very small. There are computational latencies even when "predicting". Just the time to visual stimulus (ie, physical reality -> brain) is something like 20-40ms (op. cit). Sound may be better, 8-10ms; can one make the turntable click? > Off the top of my head, I can't think > how to measure this (Alan will do film tests on other cameras). Simple computer program. A quick-and-dirty one I just wrote gave me about 50ms or so after I "locked onto" the 1s stimulus (I don't trust the result for many reasons though.) Many "reaction time" testers are online, though none of them do this particular test. www.google.com: "serial reaction test" -- many tests in the literature, none like this (probably missed it). The CogSci people are more interested in recognition stuff, trying to reverse engineer the algorithms in the brain by timing, until fMRI came along (which measures something like power consumption). > Whatever the time is, it's real life. Alan + Camera = 211ms and that > sucks. Yeah, well, but does Alan suck, or does the camera suck? ;-) >> Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter >> depressed halfway beofore release. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the > delay. Or break the beam with a cardboard tab taped to the outside edge of your record. (on the turntable) > Or break the beam with a cardboard tab taped to the outside edge of your > record. (on the turntable) Or if you have some electronic kit measure the time taken from triggering the camera with electronic cable release until when the short apears on the hot shoe. Pete Signaturehttp://www.petezilla.co.uk >>Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter >>depressed halfway beofore release. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the > delay. It occurs to me that given the low variance of the 6 shots I took, that if I repeat the test with the Maxxum 9, then the human variable will be eliminated. I know the technical shutter lag of the Maxxum 9 is about 50 - 60 ms, so the difference between the two plus that will give me the Maxxum 7D lag. The difference above 55ms will give me the human lag. Cheers, Alan. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >> Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter >> depressed halfway beofore release. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > something through the beam and some simple arithmetic gives you the > delay. surely you don't need anything complicated to remove the reaction time if Alan is going to compare the time with his film camera which he knows is 50-55ms. just compare the 2 results. >>I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my >>ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 21 lines] > capture lag up to 2seconds! - maybe the turntable would be better...) > http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp Is it just me, or does that clock stop briefly as it passes through 0? (Netscape 7.2). With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to be a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the needle 'catches' up at its next 'tick' position. Maybe I should repeat the turntable test at 33, give me a cleaner hit at the start point. (Of course I've put away the turntable). Cheers, Alan. Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >>> I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my >>> ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Cheers, > Alan. Not just you, the needle seems to be freezing briefly at 0. Remainds me when I had to demonstrate to a customer that our controller trips the engine within 40 or 50 ms after a specific condition is met. >>>I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my ankle >>>a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 34 lines] > Cheers, > Alan. Yes. I have trouble stopping the arrow within .1 seconds of straight up....Also, I perceive a small delay in my computer's reaction time. (the time between when I click the mouse pointer, and when the arrow stops.) Of course, with any camera, regardless of how fast it is, one's own reaction time is going to be a factor, so perhaps it doesn't matter, and your measurement should include that time anyway....... > With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to > be a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the > needle 'catches' up at its next 'tick' position. Try using the 1 at the bottom as the firing point rather than the 0 at the top. It doesn't stop there. With my D70 I was consistently hitting what looks like the first "notch" after the start point, 0.05 I guess. But I'm not sure how valid the test is, given the human element; I also found that I had to consciously try *not* to predict the firing moment well enough to lead it and hit the needle right on the 1, which is more a test of my compensation for shutter lag than of shutter lag itself. I guess the real test would be having some way to auto-trigger the shutter at the "correct" moment. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com >>With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to >>be a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > I guess the real test would be having some way to auto-trigger the shutter > at the "correct" moment. The simplest way to do test would be to have a mechanical release that triggers at the same time the camera shutter button and a very precise timer. Then all you need is checking the picture for the time it captured. >>With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to >>be a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the >>needle 'catches' up at its next 'tick' position. > > Try using the 1 at the bottom as the firing point rather than the 0 at the > top. It doesn't stop there. Doh!! > With my D70 I was consistently hitting what looks like the first "notch" > after the start point, 0.05 I guess. But I'm not sure how valid the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I guess the real test would be having some way to auto-trigger the shutter > at the "correct" moment. Yeah you can build or buy such devices... Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >>>With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to be >>>a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the needle [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > Yeah you can build or buy such devices... hasn't someone somewhere done all this. Like an independent magazine or something? >hasn't someone somewhere done all this. Like an independent magazine or >something? Independent magazine? It's an oxymoron. ..or do any exist that don't accept advertising, gifts, keep-the-kit etc? -- Owamanga! http://www.pbase.com/owamanga >>hasn't someone somewhere done all this. Like an independent magazine or >>something? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ..or do any exist that don't accept advertising, gifts, keep-the-kit > etc? okay funny guy you know what i mean. >>hasn't someone somewhere done all this. Like an independent magazine or >>something? [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > ..or do any exist that don't accept advertising, gifts, keep-the-kit > etc? Yes, of course they do. Or at least *it* does :-). Consumer Reports magazine accepts no advertising, gifts, etc. They obtain their test samples anonymously through normal retail channels. And they even examine *multiple samples* of the things they rate, so they can get some idea of the consistency of manufacture. All of those things are, of course, rather expensive to do. I don't know of any specifically photo magazine that does, though, no. SignatureDavid Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:dd-b@dd-b.net>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/> RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/> Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/> Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/> > I also found that I had to consciously >try *not* to predict the firing moment well enough to lead it and hit the >needle right on the 1, which is more a test of my compensation for shutter >lag than of shutter lag itself. Ah, but often, this is what we do. Sometimes you react to a situation in which case shutter lag needs to be minimal, because you will already have got the minimum 110ms human reaction time built in. Often (ok, I'll clarify, when shooting a moving bird for example) we are predicting a point of sweet focus, composition etc and so need to be as good as your method of prediction testing shows it. Reading that website 'eawckyegcy' [what is it with people and stupid names? :-)] mentioned: http://biae.clemson.edu/bpc/bp/Lab/110/reaction.htm Take a look at the 'arousal' graph. It demonstrates that Alan's reactions could be improved simply by flicking through playboy for a few minutes before doing the test (but not too long, otherwise it slows down again)... <g> -- Owamanga! http://www.pbase.com/owamanga >> Actually, scrap that and use this website (hmm, it's calibrated to >> capture lag up to 2seconds! - maybe the turntable would be better...) >> http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp >> >Is it just me, or does that clock stop briefly as it passes through 0? >(Netscape 7.2). Yes, typical. It's useless due to the extra delay at '0'. Both Explorer and Opera do it too. The only way to use this is one hand on the trigger, one on the mouse and hit them at the same time. Seriously, the 45rpm test is sounding better. >With that one, I'm getting a little over 0.1 sec... but there seems to >be a delay at 0 when it passes through (may no mean anything if the >needle 'catches' up at its next 'tick' position. Hmm, so the first tick position might be missing, anyway - suspicious. >Maybe I should repeat the turntable test at 33, give me a cleaner hit at >the start point. (Of course I've put away the turntable). Of course. You have to hide them nowadays. -- Owamanga! http://www.pbase.com/owamanga > The only way to use this is one hand on the trigger, one on the mouse > and hit them at the same time. Somebody suggested the simple expedient of using, for example, the 6 O'clock position as the start point... Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >>>I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my ankle >>>a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > Maybe I should repeat the turntable test at 33, give me a cleaner hit at > the start point. (Of course I've put away the turntable). play quake 3 for a couple of weeks and try the test again. Also have some coffee. > Actually, scrap that and use this website (hmm, it's calibrated to > capture lag up to 2seconds! - maybe the turntable would be better...) > http://www.shooting-digital.com/columns/schwartz/shutter_release_test/default.asp http://www.aliasimages.com/images/PICT0522.JPG About 125 ms. I'll repeat the turntable tomorrow at 33 RPM. Maybe get a better 'start time'. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. >>I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my >>ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > Owamanga! > http://www.pbase.com/owamanga Cool Web site. Thanks. I happen to have only my Canon SD10 next to me. It was .1 seconds. No bad for the tiny little camera. Then again, I did know that it was acceptable for what I do. Now I'm curious to try my other cameras. Clyde >I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my >ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >Cheers, >Alan I took a few shots of my son throwing snowballs last week. To capture the snowball going through the air and so it stood out in the shot, I had to wait until the snowball had my neighbors red brick as the backdrop. I was shooting at iso 1600 and didn't notice any lag. Here is a sample of what I mean. http://mikmaq.250free.com/snowball.jpg Joe > I took a few shots of my son throwing snowballs last week. To capture > the snowball going through the air and so it stood out in the shot, I [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > http://mikmaq.250free.com/snowball.jpg Thanks. (I love the trail of snow on that!). More scientifically, I followed Owamanga's suggestion and shot 6 frames of a turntable at 45 RPM. Repeated post text follows: example: http://www.aliasimages.com/images/PICT0513a.jpg From the spreadsheet. 45 RPM. Phot Angle Time (ms) 511 53 196 512 58 215 513 57.5 213 514 53 196 515 60 222 516 60 222 Average 211 (ms)... manual focus, manual exposure, shutter depressed halfway beofore release. This SUCKS. Cheers, Alan Signature-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm -- r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm -- [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin -- e-meil: there's no such thing as a FreeLunch. > > I took a few shots of my son throwing snowballs last week. To capture > > the snowball going through the air and so it stood out in the shot, I [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > Cheers, > Alan This site gives lag times in the camera reviews. May be of interest to you if you haven't already seen it: http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/MAX7/D7A7.HTM > This site gives lag times in the camera reviews. > May be of interest to you if you haven't already seen it: > http://www.imaging-resource.com/PRODS/MAX7/D7A7.HTM Thanks. Somebody else also posted that link. Cheers, Alan > I was shooting my pickup volleyball gang last night ( I sprained my > ankle a few weeks ago, it's not healed yet, so... ) [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Cheers, > Alan Hold on to your bandwidth, people... Here comes Annika the Second. Signature? |
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