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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006

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Newbie question re. sharpness

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gwperil - 10 Dec 2006 18:42 GMT
Hi,
I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
with the two kit lenses:

* EF-S 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6 II
* EF 75-300mm 1:4-5.6 III USM

As a test, I tried taking the "same" photo with each lens; that is, I
framed a still object as closely as possible with each lens and used
the same settings: Manual mode, 1/100s, f/5.6, ISO-100, Flash
(Speedlite 430EX pointed ahead), tripod. Obviously I had to move the
camera back to get the same shot with the 75-300. The only other
difference was of course the focal lengths: 45mm vs 75mm.

The picture taken with the 75-300 came out much sharper than with the
18-55. What accounts for that? I ask because, in general, I'm able to
get better looking pictures out of the 75-300.

Thanks in advance!
John McWilliams - 10 Dec 2006 20:10 GMT
> Hi,
> I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> 18-55. What accounts for that? I ask because, in general, I'm able to
> get better looking pictures out of the 75-300.

Better lens.

Can you easily post the two photos?

Signature

John McWilliams

Charles Schuler - 10 Dec 2006 20:45 GMT
> Can you easily post the two photos?

I'd like to see them also.
Aad - 10 Dec 2006 21:52 GMT
> Hi,
> I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance!

Both lenses are not producing very good pictures 'at the ends'.
So, don't use 18 and 55 or 75 and 300mm
Same for the aperture. Stay away from the ends.
Compare them again in the middle sections, ergo around 35mm and around
150mm, both with f8.
I think the difference will be less.
(beware that the largest apertures will become smaller when zoomin in. f5,6
will be wide-open in tele, dont't use it)
br
Aad
Rudy Benner - 10 Dec 2006 22:17 GMT
> Hi,
> I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance!

Can you repeat the experiment without using the flash, use ambient light in
an open area?
gwperil - 11 Dec 2006 13:55 GMT
> > Hi,
> > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> Can you repeat the experiment without using the flash, use ambient light in
> an open area?

Thanks for everyone's comments on this.
I will take the advise of dropping the flash and going outside on a
cloudy day. Then I will find a place to post the photos.

Part of the reason for these tests is that I do not (yet) have the
experience to differentiate between bad technique and inferior
equipment... so as I consider a new lens, I want to measure the quality
of the two kit lenses as a reference point. There are a lot of strong
opinions out there with respect to lens quality. For example, I'm
interested in the EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM lens. Research is all
over the map: "Perfect walk-around lens." "Way too soft." "IS is a
life-saver." "IS is not worth the money." And my personal favorite:
"Watch out for bad copies." Bad copies? There goes some more hair...

I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying
it out. :)
Charles Schuler - 11 Dec 2006 22:36 GMT
> Part of the reason for these tests is that I do not (yet) have the
> experience to differentiate between bad technique and inferior
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying
> it out. :)

Or, you can use modulation transfer curves and make decisions based on how
you will most often use a particular lens:

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150&
modelid=7445


By the way, the sharpness freaks can lead one astray.  I have run tests
between two similar Canon zoom lenses, one of which was L-glass, and was
underwhelmed with the difference in sharpness.  It was definitely there ...
I could see it; but honestly the difference was modest.  Just me.

I'm not saying that L-glass is not worth it, by the way.  Auto-focus
acquisition time and ruggedness are certainly worth having and paying for if
one has deep pockets or is a pro.
t_rust - 12 Dec 2006 07:37 GMT
Not sure if I missed it in the other posts, but a tripod is a must for
such a test!
- Take photos at smallest F stop and F8 (at least)
- At min, max and middle of the zoom range

Shoot a brick wall/ facade or the like and review the results at 100%
in photoshop.

yes, I also always loved the "Watch out for bad copies."";-)) However,
there are as many results as testers. Someone had a kit lens that was
sharper than his new 24-105 F4L IS if I remember the post correctly. I
would be pi#%d off ;-))

T
http://tr-photo-blog.blogspot.com/

> > > Hi,
> > > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
> I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying
> it out. :)
default - 12 Dec 2006 07:55 GMT
"t_rust" <thorsten.rust@googlemail.com> wrote in message > Shoot a brick
wall/ facade or the like and review the results at 100%
> in photoshop.
>
> yes, I also always loved the "Watch out for bad copies."";-)) However,
> there are as many results as testers. Someone had a kit lens that was
> sharper than his new 24-105 F4L IS if I remember the post correctly. I
> would be pi#%d off ;-))

Canon DSLRs have a low pass filter in front of the sensor that limits the
resolving power anyway by blurring the image.  Any hard black to white
transition seems to take about 3 pixels to occur fully and this is often the
limiting factor in determining lens sharpness.
edjpgcom@yahoo.com - 12 Dec 2006 19:41 GMT
> Part of the reason for these tests is that I do not (yet) have the
> experience to differentiate between bad technique and inferior
> equipment...

At least you realize the difference. That's 90% of the problem solved!

> I want to measure the quality
> of the two kit lenses as a reference point.

If you really want to "measure" there are charts and tools that can
help:

http://www.imatest.com/
http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html
http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/res-chart.html

The main problem with these is that they are not used under the same
lighting/distance as most real-world photographs.

> For example, I'm
> interested in the EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM lens.

Note that these focal lengths are a bit long on an EF-S 1.6x crop
camera. The 17-85mm is the EF-S equivalent.

> Research is all
> over the map: "Perfect walk-around lens." "Way too soft." "IS is a
> life-saver." "IS is not worth the money."

And guess, what? All of these opinions may be true!  A lot depends on
how you use a lens and what you expect (and even what camera you use it
with!).

> Bad copies? There goes some more hair...

There are two solutions for this:
1) buy where you can return if not satisfied
2) be able/willing to send in the lens for calibration repair (ideally
under warranty).

> I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying
> it out. :)

You can also often rent lenses you cannot afford to buy - even via the
internet in the U.S.
http://www.rentglass.com/

--
Erik
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 12 Dec 2006 20:00 GMT
> You can also often rent lenses you cannot afford to buy - even via the
> internet in the U.S.
> http://www.rentglass.com/

Pretty cool site.  The only problem I see:

"In stock: No" on most of the items ... at least, for Nikon.

Signature

Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: D281 77A5 63EE 82C5 5E68  00E4 7868 0ADC 4EFB 39F0

E. Magnuson - 12 Dec 2006 21:41 GMT
>> You can also often rent lenses you cannot afford to buy - even via the
>> internet in the U.S.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> "In stock: No" on most of the items ... at least, for Nikon.

Then sign up for email notification. I'd suspect that the depth of the
notification queue is one factor that might be used to judge whether
buying more copies will be profitable. At least it will tell you how
long you might have to wait for a particular item.

There is also a new competitor: http://www.ziplens.com

A review:
http://photodoto.com/index.php/2006/10/16/review-ziplens-online-lens-rental-service/

(Note: I have not personally used either of these services, but have read mostly positive experiences from those who have.)

--
Erik
edjpgcom@yahoo.com - 12 Dec 2006 22:21 GMT
Hmm, there are more of these than I knew:

http://www.rentglass.com
http://www.ziplens.com
http://www.lensprotogo.com
http://www.photolensrental.com
http://www.rentcameragear.com

And Adorama also does on-line rentals.
Paul Furman - 13 Dec 2006 14:44 GMT
> Hmm, there are more of these than I knew:
>
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> And Adorama also does on-line rentals.

And Calumet if there's one in your town. I've used them, good for 1 day.

Hmmm none of them have a Nikon 28mm f/1.4 AF
Ken Lucke - 13 Dec 2006 15:50 GMT
> > Hmm, there are more of these than I knew:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>
> Hmmm none of them have a Nikon 28mm f/1.4 AF

Pro Photo Supply (I use them), Citizen Photo, and several others, in
Portland, OR.  Just goes to show that you can probably find an outfit
to rent to you in any major town you might be in or close to.  Develop
a relationship with them, and they will often even waive the deposit
fees and such.

Non-mail order rental is often a better choice, as you can sometimes do
a spur of the moment rental and still get your equipment (I've called
the afternoon before and still been able to rent the lens I
needed/wanted for then next day.  Helps if you need it during the week
instead of weekends, because more people want to be out shooting on the
weekends, and the sports photogs rent a lot of equipment on weekends as
well), plus you can inspect it when you pick it up, and make sure that
it is delivered back properly, on time, in person.

Signature

You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a
reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating
the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for
independence.
       -- Charles A. Beard

Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Dec 2006 00:20 GMT
>Hi,
>I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
>Thanks in advance!

Trying to compare resolving power of two lenses is not as easy
as it first appears.  One big problem with your configuration
was the use of flash, which will result in different lighting
for the two images, making them impossible to compare.  I
suppose the ideal comparison is done between 11 AM and 1 PM on a
cloudy day, outside. :-)

Second, there are several comparisons that you'll want to know
about.  At the middle of the zoom range, and at each end; plus
with the aperture wide open and with it stopped down to an
optimum opening and with it stopped down to f/16 or so.  It
might also (depending on what you intend to shoot) be
interesting to do all of that with both close and distant
targets.

It generates a rather large amount of data.  You may want to
limit it to that which appears to apply to your needs.  For
example, if you do a lot of available light, then you do want to
compare at wider aperture, otherwise maybe not.  If you do any
closeup work, then a close focus comparison is definitely
needed.  If you shoot portraits, you'll want to compare in the
areas that match your portrait style.

Generally you do want to test the extremes of focal length and
aperture, because you want to know what the effects are when
there is no choice.  Is it worth even trying to shoot with a
given lense wide open, or not?  In what circumstances?  For
example I have some lenses that I don't mind, or even prefer,
shooting wide open when making portraits, but would not think of
trying to focus up close on a flower or a bug and using that
same lense wide open.

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

default - 11 Dec 2006 03:35 GMT
Looking through your website, I was wondering if you would share how you got
the Canon 800mm lens onto your Nikon?  Since the Canon has a shorter
register distance, I presumed that you must have removed part of the rear of
the lens and put on a Nikon mount, but I was wondering if you could share
the details.

Presumably it would also be possible to put a Canon EF mount on in a
similiar manner and FD lenses are sooo cheap now ...

Of course there are adapters that allow infinity focus for Canon FD to EF,
but the real Canon one is expensive and rare, and the $40 is apparently not
great.
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Dec 2006 08:39 GMT
>Looking through your website, I was wondering if you would share how you got
>the Canon 800mm lens onto your Nikon?  Since the Canon has a shorter
>register distance, I presumed that you must have removed part of the rear of
>the lens and put on a Nikon mount, but I was wondering if you could share
>the details.

I don't really know the details, other than it is a rather well
done permanent conversion to a Nikon F mount on some kind of a
contract for a number of lenses (both Canon SSC 600mm f/4 and
800mm SSC f/5.6) by Tempe Camera Repair in Tempe AZ.

I'm not sure when was done, but assume that it would have been
modified in the late 70's or even early 80's.  The lense was
designed for the 1976 Montreal Olympics, and was in production
until 1981, when Canon came out with a newer L version.

Adorama sold four or five each of the modified 600mm and 800mm
lenses on eBay.  I've seen other odd lenses that Tempe Camera
had modified too, so apparently they did more than just a few.
All of them have been obviously well used, though also well
maintained, lenses.  The one I have is in good condition, but
the case had clearly been shipped around the world a few times
and suffered the consequences.  The outside was beat to pieces
while the inside was in very nice condition.

I considered it quite a find, because it sold for not only far
less than any other decent quality Nikon mount lense, the ones
modified for the Nikon mount sold for less than other unmodified
Canon 800mm lenses had sold for.  It isn't like having an
autofocus lense, but that of course would cost thousands of
dollars more.

What is really astounding is that it works well with a selected
pair of telconverters, a 1.6x and a 2x, or with another specific
2x (I tested it with a number of different combination and
individual teleconverters to find ones that make a good match,
because most of them simply do not work well at all).  Can you
imagine how hard it is to focus an 800mm lense with a 1.6x and a
2x teleconverter, making it into a 2560mm focal length!  It
requires a *sturdy* tripod.

(Right now it is in the box, stored away, waiting for the sun to
come back up in late January. :-)

>Presumably it would also be possible to put a Canon EF mount on in a
>similiar manner and FD lenses are sooo cheap now ...
>
>Of course there are adapters that allow infinity focus for Canon FD to EF,
>but the real Canon one is expensive and rare, and the $40 is apparently not
>great.

Tempe Camera Repair is still in business, and is a very
interesting outfit.  I have no idea if they would consider doing
such modification today or not.  Do a web search for them, it is
interesting reading!

Signature

Floyd L. Davidson            <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson>
Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska)                         floyd@apaflo.com

edjpgcom@yahoo.com - 12 Dec 2006 19:09 GMT
> As a test, I tried taking the "same" photo with each lens; that is, I
> framed a still object

A flat object or a 3d object? Are you comparing the center, the edges
or even the corners?

> Manual mode, 1/100s, f/5.6, ISO-100, Flash, tripod.  45mm vs 75mm.

Note that f/5.6 is wide open for the 18-55@45mm while it's one stop
down for the 75-300. In general, most lenses perform better one or two
stops down than wide open.

> The picture taken with the 75-300 came out much sharper than with the
> 18-55. What accounts for that?

There are a lot of possible reasons:

* the focus was more accurate with the 75-300 (e.g. try manual focusing
and/or shots at different distances as well.)
* your 18-55mm is not performing to spec due to a manufacturing defect
or damage
* the 75-300@75mm f/5.6 is just sharper than the 18-55@45mm f/5.6

>From Canon's published MTF curves, you might expect the 18-55@45 to be
better in the center and the 75-300 better at the edges; but these are
theoretical numbers and in the real world lenses vary.

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=149&
modelid=10512

http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150&
modelid=7444


To understand more about these charts:
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-m
tf.shtml

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/lens-contrast.shtml

> I ask because, in general, I'm able to
> get better looking pictures out of the 75-300.

That would be my experience as well. The 75-300 Canon lenses I've used
have been pretty good under 150mm.

--
Erik
RichA - 12 Dec 2006 22:55 GMT
> Hi,
> I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance!

I've seen the 75-300 compared against a pro lens in the same focal
range and the cheaper less produced pretty mediocre results.  If the
18-55 is even worse, I'd start saving for a better lens for the 350
since it does have a good sensor with decent pixel count.  In other
words, your current lens set cannot meet what the sensor can offer.
 
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