Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006
Newbie question re. sharpness
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gwperil - 10 Dec 2006 18:42 GMT Hi, I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D with the two kit lenses:
* EF-S 18-55mm 1:3.5-5.6 II * EF 75-300mm 1:4-5.6 III USM
As a test, I tried taking the "same" photo with each lens; that is, I framed a still object as closely as possible with each lens and used the same settings: Manual mode, 1/100s, f/5.6, ISO-100, Flash (Speedlite 430EX pointed ahead), tripod. Obviously I had to move the camera back to get the same shot with the 75-300. The only other difference was of course the focal lengths: 45mm vs 75mm.
The picture taken with the 75-300 came out much sharper than with the 18-55. What accounts for that? I ask because, in general, I'm able to get better looking pictures out of the 75-300.
Thanks in advance!
John McWilliams - 10 Dec 2006 20:10 GMT > Hi, > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > 18-55. What accounts for that? I ask because, in general, I'm able to > get better looking pictures out of the 75-300. Better lens.
Can you easily post the two photos?
 Signature John McWilliams
Charles Schuler - 10 Dec 2006 20:45 GMT > Can you easily post the two photos? I'd like to see them also.
Aad - 10 Dec 2006 21:52 GMT > Hi, > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thanks in advance! Both lenses are not producing very good pictures 'at the ends'. So, don't use 18 and 55 or 75 and 300mm Same for the aperture. Stay away from the ends. Compare them again in the middle sections, ergo around 35mm and around 150mm, both with f8. I think the difference will be less. (beware that the largest apertures will become smaller when zoomin in. f5,6 will be wide-open in tele, dont't use it) br Aad
Rudy Benner - 10 Dec 2006 22:17 GMT > Hi, > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thanks in advance! Can you repeat the experiment without using the flash, use ambient light in an open area?
gwperil - 11 Dec 2006 13:55 GMT > > Hi, > > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > Can you repeat the experiment without using the flash, use ambient light in > an open area? Thanks for everyone's comments on this. I will take the advise of dropping the flash and going outside on a cloudy day. Then I will find a place to post the photos.
Part of the reason for these tests is that I do not (yet) have the experience to differentiate between bad technique and inferior equipment... so as I consider a new lens, I want to measure the quality of the two kit lenses as a reference point. There are a lot of strong opinions out there with respect to lens quality. For example, I'm interested in the EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM lens. Research is all over the map: "Perfect walk-around lens." "Way too soft." "IS is a life-saver." "IS is not worth the money." And my personal favorite: "Watch out for bad copies." Bad copies? There goes some more hair...
I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying it out. :)
Charles Schuler - 11 Dec 2006 22:36 GMT > Part of the reason for these tests is that I do not (yet) have the > experience to differentiate between bad technique and inferior [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying > it out. :) Or, you can use modulation transfer curves and make decisions based on how you will most often use a particular lens:
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150& modelid=7445
By the way, the sharpness freaks can lead one astray. I have run tests between two similar Canon zoom lenses, one of which was L-glass, and was underwhelmed with the difference in sharpness. It was definitely there ... I could see it; but honestly the difference was modest. Just me.
I'm not saying that L-glass is not worth it, by the way. Auto-focus acquisition time and ruggedness are certainly worth having and paying for if one has deep pockets or is a pro.
t_rust - 12 Dec 2006 07:37 GMT Not sure if I missed it in the other posts, but a tripod is a must for such a test! - Take photos at smallest F stop and F8 (at least) - At min, max and middle of the zoom range
Shoot a brick wall/ facade or the like and review the results at 100% in photoshop.
yes, I also always loved the "Watch out for bad copies."";-)) However, there are as many results as testers. Someone had a kit lens that was sharper than his new 24-105 F4L IS if I remember the post correctly. I would be pi#%d off ;-))
T http://tr-photo-blog.blogspot.com/
> > > Hi, > > > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying > it out. :) default - 12 Dec 2006 07:55 GMT "t_rust" <thorsten.rust@googlemail.com> wrote in message > Shoot a brick wall/ facade or the like and review the results at 100%
> in photoshop. > > yes, I also always loved the "Watch out for bad copies."";-)) However, > there are as many results as testers. Someone had a kit lens that was > sharper than his new 24-105 F4L IS if I remember the post correctly. I > would be pi#%d off ;-)) Canon DSLRs have a low pass filter in front of the sensor that limits the resolving power anyway by blurring the image. Any hard black to white transition seems to take about 3 pixels to occur fully and this is often the limiting factor in determining lens sharpness.
edjpgcom@yahoo.com - 12 Dec 2006 19:41 GMT > Part of the reason for these tests is that I do not (yet) have the > experience to differentiate between bad technique and inferior > equipment... At least you realize the difference. That's 90% of the problem solved!
> I want to measure the quality > of the two kit lenses as a reference point. If you really want to "measure" there are charts and tools that can help:
http://www.imatest.com/ http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~westin/misc/res-chart.html
The main problem with these is that they are not used under the same lighting/distance as most real-world photographs.
> For example, I'm > interested in the EF 28-135mm F/3.5-5.6 IS USM lens. Note that these focal lengths are a bit long on an EF-S 1.6x crop camera. The 17-85mm is the EF-S equivalent.
> Research is all > over the map: "Perfect walk-around lens." "Way too soft." "IS is a > life-saver." "IS is not worth the money." And guess, what? All of these opinions may be true! A lot depends on how you use a lens and what you expect (and even what camera you use it with!).
> Bad copies? There goes some more hair... There are two solutions for this: 1) buy where you can return if not satisfied 2) be able/willing to send in the lens for calibration repair (ideally under warranty).
> I guess there's no substitute for just plunking down the $$$ and trying > it out. :) You can also often rent lenses you cannot afford to buy - even via the internet in the U.S. http://www.rentglass.com/
-- Erik
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 12 Dec 2006 20:00 GMT > You can also often rent lenses you cannot afford to buy - even via the > internet in the U.S. > http://www.rentglass.com/ Pretty cool site. The only problem I see:
"In stock: No" on most of the items ... at least, for Nikon.
 Signature Thomas T. Veldhouse Key Fingerprint: D281 77A5 63EE 82C5 5E68 00E4 7868 0ADC 4EFB 39F0
E. Magnuson - 12 Dec 2006 21:41 GMT >> You can also often rent lenses you cannot afford to buy - even via the >> internet in the U.S. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > "In stock: No" on most of the items ... at least, for Nikon. Then sign up for email notification. I'd suspect that the depth of the notification queue is one factor that might be used to judge whether buying more copies will be profitable. At least it will tell you how long you might have to wait for a particular item.
There is also a new competitor: http://www.ziplens.com
A review: http://photodoto.com/index.php/2006/10/16/review-ziplens-online-lens-rental-service/
(Note: I have not personally used either of these services, but have read mostly positive experiences from those who have.)
-- Erik
edjpgcom@yahoo.com - 12 Dec 2006 22:21 GMT Hmm, there are more of these than I knew:
http://www.rentglass.com http://www.ziplens.com http://www.lensprotogo.com http://www.photolensrental.com http://www.rentcameragear.com
And Adorama also does on-line rentals.
Paul Furman - 13 Dec 2006 14:44 GMT > Hmm, there are more of these than I knew: > [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > And Adorama also does on-line rentals. And Calumet if there's one in your town. I've used them, good for 1 day.
Hmmm none of them have a Nikon 28mm f/1.4 AF
Ken Lucke - 13 Dec 2006 15:50 GMT > > Hmm, there are more of these than I knew: > > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Hmmm none of them have a Nikon 28mm f/1.4 AF Pro Photo Supply (I use them), Citizen Photo, and several others, in Portland, OR. Just goes to show that you can probably find an outfit to rent to you in any major town you might be in or close to. Develop a relationship with them, and they will often even waive the deposit fees and such.
Non-mail order rental is often a better choice, as you can sometimes do a spur of the moment rental and still get your equipment (I've called the afternoon before and still been able to rent the lens I needed/wanted for then next day. Helps if you need it during the week instead of weekends, because more people want to be out shooting on the weekends, and the sports photogs rent a lot of equipment on weekends as well), plus you can inspect it when you pick it up, and make sure that it is delivered back properly, on time, in person.
 Signature You need only reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence. -- Charles A. Beard
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Dec 2006 00:20 GMT >Hi, >I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > >Thanks in advance! Trying to compare resolving power of two lenses is not as easy as it first appears. One big problem with your configuration was the use of flash, which will result in different lighting for the two images, making them impossible to compare. I suppose the ideal comparison is done between 11 AM and 1 PM on a cloudy day, outside. :-)
Second, there are several comparisons that you'll want to know about. At the middle of the zoom range, and at each end; plus with the aperture wide open and with it stopped down to an optimum opening and with it stopped down to f/16 or so. It might also (depending on what you intend to shoot) be interesting to do all of that with both close and distant targets.
It generates a rather large amount of data. You may want to limit it to that which appears to apply to your needs. For example, if you do a lot of available light, then you do want to compare at wider aperture, otherwise maybe not. If you do any closeup work, then a close focus comparison is definitely needed. If you shoot portraits, you'll want to compare in the areas that match your portrait style.
Generally you do want to test the extremes of focal length and aperture, because you want to know what the effects are when there is no choice. Is it worth even trying to shoot with a given lense wide open, or not? In what circumstances? For example I have some lenses that I don't mind, or even prefer, shooting wide open when making portraits, but would not think of trying to focus up close on a flower or a bug and using that same lense wide open.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
default - 11 Dec 2006 03:35 GMT Looking through your website, I was wondering if you would share how you got the Canon 800mm lens onto your Nikon? Since the Canon has a shorter register distance, I presumed that you must have removed part of the rear of the lens and put on a Nikon mount, but I was wondering if you could share the details.
Presumably it would also be possible to put a Canon EF mount on in a similiar manner and FD lenses are sooo cheap now ...
Of course there are adapters that allow infinity focus for Canon FD to EF, but the real Canon one is expensive and rare, and the $40 is apparently not great.
Floyd L. Davidson - 11 Dec 2006 08:39 GMT >Looking through your website, I was wondering if you would share how you got >the Canon 800mm lens onto your Nikon? Since the Canon has a shorter >register distance, I presumed that you must have removed part of the rear of >the lens and put on a Nikon mount, but I was wondering if you could share >the details. I don't really know the details, other than it is a rather well done permanent conversion to a Nikon F mount on some kind of a contract for a number of lenses (both Canon SSC 600mm f/4 and 800mm SSC f/5.6) by Tempe Camera Repair in Tempe AZ.
I'm not sure when was done, but assume that it would have been modified in the late 70's or even early 80's. The lense was designed for the 1976 Montreal Olympics, and was in production until 1981, when Canon came out with a newer L version.
Adorama sold four or five each of the modified 600mm and 800mm lenses on eBay. I've seen other odd lenses that Tempe Camera had modified too, so apparently they did more than just a few. All of them have been obviously well used, though also well maintained, lenses. The one I have is in good condition, but the case had clearly been shipped around the world a few times and suffered the consequences. The outside was beat to pieces while the inside was in very nice condition.
I considered it quite a find, because it sold for not only far less than any other decent quality Nikon mount lense, the ones modified for the Nikon mount sold for less than other unmodified Canon 800mm lenses had sold for. It isn't like having an autofocus lense, but that of course would cost thousands of dollars more.
What is really astounding is that it works well with a selected pair of telconverters, a 1.6x and a 2x, or with another specific 2x (I tested it with a number of different combination and individual teleconverters to find ones that make a good match, because most of them simply do not work well at all). Can you imagine how hard it is to focus an 800mm lense with a 1.6x and a 2x teleconverter, making it into a 2560mm focal length! It requires a *sturdy* tripod.
(Right now it is in the box, stored away, waiting for the sun to come back up in late January. :-)
>Presumably it would also be possible to put a Canon EF mount on in a >similiar manner and FD lenses are sooo cheap now ... > >Of course there are adapters that allow infinity focus for Canon FD to EF, >but the real Canon one is expensive and rare, and the $40 is apparently not >great. Tempe Camera Repair is still in business, and is a very interesting outfit. I have no idea if they would consider doing such modification today or not. Do a web search for them, it is interesting reading!
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
edjpgcom@yahoo.com - 12 Dec 2006 19:09 GMT > As a test, I tried taking the "same" photo with each lens; that is, I > framed a still object A flat object or a 3d object? Are you comparing the center, the edges or even the corners?
> Manual mode, 1/100s, f/5.6, ISO-100, Flash, tripod. 45mm vs 75mm. Note that f/5.6 is wide open for the 18-55@45mm while it's one stop down for the 75-300. In general, most lenses perform better one or two stops down than wide open.
> The picture taken with the 75-300 came out much sharper than with the > 18-55. What accounts for that? There are a lot of possible reasons:
* the focus was more accurate with the 75-300 (e.g. try manual focusing and/or shots at different distances as well.) * your 18-55mm is not performing to spec due to a manufacturing defect or damage * the 75-300@75mm f/5.6 is just sharper than the 18-55@45mm f/5.6
>From Canon's published MTF curves, you might expect the 18-55@45 to be better in the center and the 75-300 better at the edges; but these are theoretical numbers and in the real world lenses vary.
http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=149& modelid=10512 http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=150& modelid=7444
To understand more about these charts: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/understanding-m tf.shtml http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tutorials/understanding-series/lens-contrast.shtml
> I ask because, in general, I'm able to > get better looking pictures out of the 75-300. That would be my experience as well. The 75-300 Canon lenses I've used have been pretty good under 150mm.
-- Erik
RichA - 12 Dec 2006 22:55 GMT > Hi, > I have what is hopefully a pretty basic question. I have a Canon 350D [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > > Thanks in advance! I've seen the 75-300 compared against a pro lens in the same focal range and the cheaper less produced pretty mediocre results. If the 18-55 is even worse, I'd start saving for a better lens for the 350 since it does have a good sensor with decent pixel count. In other words, your current lens set cannot meet what the sensor can offer.
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