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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / January 2007

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Flash Umbrella Info?

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Jim Redelfs - 08 Dec 2006 19:15 GMT
Every time I look into light stands, umbrellas and the like, I am seriously
intimidated by my IGNORANCE!!  ARGH!!

I thought I would purchase a second Canon Speedlite 580EX

<http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=14
1&modelid=10514>

the Canon Speedlite Transmitter ST-E2

<http://www.usa.canon.com/consumer/controller?act=ModelDetailAct&fcategoryid=14
1&modelid=8304>

a couple umbrellas and stands and have some fun with my 20D.

But there's SO MUCH stuff out there, where do I begin?

Do I want an umbrella/light kit WITH a strobe?

If yes, do I "need" the above Speedlite and transmitter?

Should I start out with ONE umbrella or just get two and be done with it?

If there's a FAQ you can point me to, I will humbly RTFM.   TIA
Signature

           :)
JR

Canon EOS 20D

chasfs - 08 Dec 2006 21:09 GMT
Hi Jim,

I suggest you get a kit with 2 stands, 2 monolights and 2 umbrellas.
Something like: http://www.alienbees.com/digi.html

For a single portrait set up one flash high, aimed at subjects face,
max power, and well to one side of the camera. Put the camera on a
tripod, so the lens is even with the subjects eyes.  Set the other
flash close to the camera, but on the other side of the camera from the
first flash.  This flash should be at lower power than the first and at
camera height.  Adjust the power of the flashes so the side flash casts
a triangular shadow of the nose, and the flash near the camera fills
that area in so it isn't too dark.  Since you can experiment for free
with your 20D, you don't really need a flashmeter.

Also see:
  http://www.photo.net/photo/studio-photography
  http://www.google.com/search?q=+portrait+flash+tutorial

Good luck!

Peace,
-chasfs
http://chasfs.com

> Every time I look into light stands, umbrellas and the like, I am seriously
> intimidated by my IGNORANCE!!  ARGH!!
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> If there's a FAQ you can point me to, I will humbly RTFM.   TIA
John McWilliams - 08 Dec 2006 23:50 GMT
> Every time I look into light stands, umbrellas and the like, I am seriously
> intimidated by my IGNORANCE!!  ARGH!!
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> If there's a FAQ you can point me to, I will humbly RTFM.

Diff. strokes, and all: I'd be inclined to not invest in fixed strobes,
unless you are sure you'll stick with studio type photography, and
instead get the 580EX and one of the smaller but new Canon flashes,
which would obviate getting the transmitter for less than a hundred more
than the transmitter, and gives off light as well as triggering the
slave. My understanding is that the two flashes can be both used in ETTL
mode, with one stopped down to act as fill or secondary light, but I
haven't done that yet with my 550 and 580. I was even considering
getting the 430 or 200 something to mount on the camera, to trigger both
the others, but haven't yet.

Do you have a decent flash currently?

Signature

John McWilliams

Jim Redelfs - 09 Dec 2006 01:00 GMT
> Do you have a decent flash currently?

Canon Speedlite 580EX

I paid a pretty penny for the "official" (mated?) flash when I made the switch
from my T90 to digital. (It sure hurts to walk away from collection of nice
"glass". <sigh>)

I would like to get as much bang for my buck, considering I'm already invested
in the Canon Speedlite.  If acquiring another 580EX would be a good thing,
even if a bit more expensive than an alternative, I'm interested.

So, if I get a second 580EX, I *DON'T* need the transmitter? [scratching head]

I DO appreciate the info.
Signature

           :)
JR

Jay Beckman - 09 Dec 2006 04:16 GMT
>> Do you have a decent flash currently?
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>switch from my T90 to digital. (It sure hurts to walk away from collection
>of nice "glass". ><sigh>)

Jim, I feel your pain times two!

I've decided to go "hybrid" and add a film scanner so that I can enjoy the
benefitis of both formats.
I have an EOS 20D and good EF L glass but I still want to take both my T90s
out and shoot slides.

>I would like to get as much bang for my buck, considering I'm already
>invested in the Canon Speedlite.  If acquiring another 580EX would be a
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> So, if I get a second 580EX, I *DON'T* need the transmitter? [scratching
> head]

You can slave off-camera flash units to an on-camera flash unit, or you can
get the infrared xmitter and slave multiple off-camera flash units to the
xmitter on your hot shoe.  I have the infrared remote control head but
sometimes I just just slave my 430EX to my 580EX.

HTH,

Jay Beckman
Chandler, AZ
www.pbase.com/flyingphotog
John McWilliams - 09 Dec 2006 06:49 GMT
>> Do you have a decent flash currently?
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> I DO appreciate the info.

That's kee-rect. It'll be Slave or Master with another 580, a 550, or
430, for starters. The transmitters are incorporated in these units, and
with the transmitter a tad over $200, you can get a transmitter via, say
a 430 for about a hundred bills more. Something I am considering, but
haven't sprung for. I already have the 550 and 580 as I mentioned, and
still have a way to go to maximize their use.

==
john

I know that you believe you understood what you think I said, but I'm
not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
The Maverick - 09 Dec 2006 06:43 GMT
If you go with studio strobes then it's very hard to set up flash
lighting in the field.

If you go with the 580's then you can use them either in the studio or
out in the field - score one for the 580's.

Studio strobes don't work with the camera's E-TTL flash metering - so
it's "manual all the way" - score two for the 580's.

You can get inexpensive brackets that allow you to beam a 580 into an
umbrella on a tripod - the only downside is that the 580 on the tripod
must be able to see the 580 (or speedlite transmitter) on the camera -
inside it's not such an issue as the signal will bouce around the walls
quite nicely, but outside (especially if you've got an umbrella between
the transmitter and receiver) then you'll likely strike problems.

By the way, the speedlight transmitter and the 580 used as a
transmitter (master) communicate in different ways - the first via
infra-red, the 2nd via the pre-flash. For this reason a 580 used as a
transmitter generally has a better range.

With this in mind, you'll now understand why the 580 zooms to 24mm as
soon as you switch it to master mode. Additionally, if you set the
custom function on the master 580 to tell it not to fire, it still
fires the pre-flash (this one has people scratching their heads a bit).

For what it's worth I've now got 3 580's (heading towards 5 all up) -
great units.
Jim Redelfs - 09 Dec 2006 13:12 GMT
> If you go with studio strobes then it's very hard to set up flash
> lighting in the field.
>
> If you go with the 580's then you can use them either in the studio or
> out in the field - score one for the 580's.

I know a thank-you (alone) is poor form but...

Thank-you for taking the time to post detail about the multiple-580
flash/transmitter system.  I will be getting another 580EX.
Signature

           :)
JR

Pat - 09 Dec 2006 16:36 GMT
The 580ex makes a very compact flash system that will fit in your bag.
Not Disclosed - 10 Dec 2006 23:24 GMT
> Every time I look into light stands, umbrellas and the like, I am seriously
> intimidated by my IGNORANCE!!  ARGH!!
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> If there's a FAQ you can point me to, I will humbly RTFM.   TIA

I would suggest buying proper studio flash with a modeling lamp. You are
working blind with flash units like the 580EX et al.
Jim Redelfs - 10 Dec 2006 23:44 GMT
> I would suggest buying proper studio flash with a modeling lamp. You are
> working blind with flash units like the 580EX et al.

OK.  I can understand that.

However, isn't "working blind" significantly mitigated with digital, given the
immediate feedback of "chimping" the LED display and/or the histogram?

Just getting another 580EX will strain my budget.  It will be a long time
before, if ever, I wish to build a working studio.  It's NOT out of the
question, though.

I can just "see" me setting-up an umbrella or two, on the spur of the moment,
to do an impromptu session with a grandchild that's willing to sit JUST LONG
ENOUGH for Grandpa to get his sh*t together.  Heck, I could see standing the
other flash on the piano just to mitigate harsh shadows.  I think I would get
more "mileage" out of a second dedicated flash.  Thanks for your words.
Signature

           :)
JR

Canon EOS 20D

John McWilliams - 11 Dec 2006 00:56 GMT
>> I would suggest buying proper studio flash with a modeling lamp. You are
>> working blind with flash units like the 580EX et al.
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> other flash on the piano just to mitigate harsh shadows.  I think I would get
> more "mileage" out of a second dedicated flash.  Thanks for your words.

Don't forget the use of reflectors for the fill in, shadow mitigation.

And another factor that may seem counter intuitive: The closer your
softbox, or umbrella (shooting through it, not bouncing) the softer the
light will be.

Signature

John McWilliams

Alan Browne - 28 Dec 2006 18:40 GMT
> Every time I look into light stands, umbrellas and the like, I am seriously
> intimidated by my IGNORANCE!!  ARGH!!
[quoted text clipped - 20 lines]
>
> If there's a FAQ you can point me to, I will humbly RTFM.   TIA

Very good portraits can be done with a single umbrella and yield very
good results.  Better is to have two umbrellas with two lights.

A basic two light portrait setup can be done with flashes set to manual
power levels, not TTL.  This will aid in consistent exposures across a
bunch of shots and clothing changes.  It helps to have a flash meter to
set the fill and key light but with a digital camera you can "converge"
to a proper setting with a few test shots.

It's 'better' to use studio strobes such as AlienBees, but a couple high
end speedlites are just as good.

Good camera stores usually have a variety of brackets to mount your
camera flash on a stand with an umbrella.

The most basic setup is for the fill light to be near the camera and
shining down the lens axis towards the subject.
They keylight usually above shoulder height and at an angle to the lens
axis (30 - 60 degrees).

Avoid key or fill lighting from getting at the lens

The key light should expose whites as white and the fill light should
expose whites as greys.  Set each light separately.  The more "grey" the
fill light, the greater the key:fill ratio.  Whites should not be burned
out.

If the key light is half the distance to the subject as the fill, and
they're both at the same power setting, then you will have something
close to a pleasing basic portait lighting ratio.

IMO the better umbrellas are the "shoot through" type, not the refelctor
type.  You can usually pick up some shootthroughs at a used camera shop
or swap event for 5 - 10 $.

For about $40 you can add an AC strobe to put behind the subject and
light up the background.  Backgrounds can be overlit by up to 2 stops or
underlit by a stop or more.  With an AC strobe and an old can, a spot
can be projected on the BG to backframe the subject.

Antother $40 and a rim or hairlight is made...

(Note: these lights slave off of the master, so in digital TTL/preflash
they will fire on the preflash.  You need to fire the master in manaul
mode with all lights at manual power levels.  Note that this, once set
up, leads to consistency in exposure).

Have fun.

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Randall Ainsworth - 28 Dec 2006 18:56 GMT
> Very good portraits can be done with a single umbrella and yield very
> good results.  Better is to have two umbrellas with two lights.

*Important* both lights should be on the same side of the camera (no
crosslighting).
John McWilliams - 28 Dec 2006 19:56 GMT
>> Very good portraits can be done with a single umbrella and yield very
>> good results.  Better is to have two umbrellas with two lights.
>
> *Important* both lights should be on the same side of the camera (no
> crosslighting).

Could you please elaborate?

Signature

John McWilliams

John McWilliams - 02 Jan 2007 20:28 GMT
>>> Very good portraits can be done with a single umbrella and yield very
>>> good results.  Better is to have two umbrellas with two lights.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> Could you please elaborate?

Could someone expound a tad on this? Agree or disagree, I'd like to
learn more.

Signature

John McWilliams

Randall Ainsworth - 03 Jan 2007 03:04 GMT
> >> *Important* both lights should be on the same side of the camera (no
> >> crosslighting).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Could someone expound a tad on this? Agree or disagree, I'd like to
> learn more.

When you're doing portraiture, you don't want lights on opposite sides
of the camera (unless it's some sort of accent light). You want to
create the illusion of a single light source, just as you'd find in
nature. Cross-lighting is very amateurish and rarely flattering.

For more information, go to http://jzportraits.home.att.net. The
samples are very dated looking, but the principles are the basics of
professional portrait photography.
John McWilliams - 03 Jan 2007 03:14 GMT
>>>> *Important* both lights should be on the same side of the camera (no
>>>> crosslighting).
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> samples are very dated looking, but the principles are the basics of
> professional portrait photography.

Thanks for the reply and link. I have some real reading to do.

But on the surface, it appears that this goes counter to most recent
guides I have read, with the fill light, ca. -1 (one) stop, on the
opposite side of the main. But, intuitively, I like your approach.

Signature

John McWilliams

Randall Ainsworth - 03 Jan 2007 03:30 GMT
> Thanks for the reply and link. I have some real reading to do.
>
> But on the surface, it appears that this goes counter to most recent
> guides I have read, with the fill light, ca. -1 (one) stop, on the
> opposite side of the main. But, intuitively, I like your approach.

Cross-lighting is fine if you're copying an old photograph, but that's
all it's good for. Joe Zeltsman's tutorials give you the basics.
 
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