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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006

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rebel Help Please

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ROMPWORTHY - 26 Nov 2006 03:04 GMT
Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast please:

I have not been able to get into my creative settings much with 2 toddlers
taking up most my time but I its family portrait time and Im in need of some
help desperatly.

I tried to research online with what little time Ive had and now have reached
failure after trying what Ive read please tell me what I did wrong in my
portraits so hopefully tomorrow I can get them done.

I used the Av setting and Im getting blur/ghost/tracers whatever you want to
call them. Minimal on tripod but my less still toddlers held on our outsides
of center are blurring bad even then.

Ive tried everything I can think of good light, tripod, Aperture dialed down
(or up) to a lower number, ISO up even cranked both and still get tracers on
test image with moving hands.

Its so much better on Av for the warmth of the light and crispness of the
picture (ignore my amateur words) so I really dont want our fair skin on auto
so we can look washed out and stale. Please tell me what else I can do.

Also since Im here what can I do off tripod too, for just my toddlers
portrait w/o the tripod I can do anything on AV mode its just a mess.

HELP please.

If I need another creative mode please walk me trhough step by step I promise
to learn up later but now Im on time constraint so please save my rookie
noobe butt.

Thanks
Rudy Benner - 26 Nov 2006 03:11 GMT
> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast
> please:
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Thanks

Sniff sniff ..... my BS detector is going nuts.
ROMPWORTHY - 02 Dec 2006 19:47 GMT
>> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast
>> please:
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
>Sniff sniff ..... my BS detector is going nuts.

Problem solved thanks for those who tried to help.  Another board helped me.
I cranked my ISO to 1600 and Im about 1/80 on my shutter speed wide open at 3.
5 and =1 on exposure - I can get to 0 exposure if I go to 1/100 on the
shutter.  Just to update thanks for those who helped.  

Still dont know what the postin issue was but due to the rude remarks I just
wont post anymore so not to get mocked and get immature comments for simply
trying to get help.  Grow up and discuss your issues with people rather then
mocking them.  I can tell that man is single or at the best unhappily married
since no woman would ever put up with such rudeness!  People like you who
ruin good helpful forums - you set a fine example for this forum, and Im sure
they are embarassed to have you.  I know I wont ever be back tata!

Those of you who were helpful and understanding thanks again and have a Merry
Christmas.  

Over & OUT!
Mrs. S
Colin_D - 26 Nov 2006 03:35 GMT
> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast please:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Thanks

If you're using flash, then Av can trap you.  Flash used on 'P' mode
will expose for the flash illumination only, but flash used on Av mode
will set the exposure to allow for the ambient light in the background
as well as the flash, so in a relatively dim light situation the camera
will use a very slow shutter speed, maybe as low as a quarter or fifth
of a second, and any movement by the camera or the children will
register as blur.

Moral: use 'P' setting, pop the flash up with the little button on the side.

If you're not using flash, then note what the aperture and shutter speed
is in the viewfinder.  If the shutter speed is slow, longer than about
1/60 second, then that's your problem.

Colin D.

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madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 26 Nov 2006 03:36 GMT
> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast please:

(...snip...)

> I used the Av setting and Im getting blur/ghost/tracers whatever you want to
> call them. Minimal on tripod but my less still toddlers held on our outsides
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> picture (ignore my amateur words) so I really dont want our fair skin on auto
> so we can look washed out and stale. Please tell me what else I can do.

It's difficult to say exactly what the problem is without seeing a
sample, but I'd guess that the problem is a slow shutter speed. This
would explain why the problem is less pronounced with the camera on a
tripod. When the shutter speed is too slow, you can get motion blur if
either the camera or the subjects are moving. With a tripod, the camera
shouldn't move at all (but with a cheap tripod, you'll probably still
get a little motion unless you use the self-timer). However, even with
the camera totally stationary, a slow shutter speed will cause motion
blur id the subjects are moving (pretty likely with toddlers).

I'm going to guess that in the automatic modes, the flash is popping
up. This would explain why you're complaining of washed-out colours;
the flash tends to have detrimental effects on colours in the pictures,
especially skin tones. If the flash is popping up, that's a good sign
that the light is low; the camera knows that it needs to use the flash
to add light so that the shutter speed can be fast enough that you
don't get motion blur.

What's your shutter speed? If it's 1/60 or faster, you should be good.
If it's slower (like 1/30, 1/15, 1/4...) then that's almost definitely
your problem.

Now, *assuming* that this is true, the next question is, what do you
do?

You have a few options.

First, use a tripod and use either a remote release or the self-timer.
This ensures that the camera won't be moving at all. This is a good
idea no matter what other solution you use.

Take a picture of something stationary (like a chair, or the wall). Use
the same focal length that you're using for your other pictures (that
is, zoom in the same amount). Look at those pictures. Are they blurred?
If not, great; you're halfway there.

If they are blurred, then either the camera's moving (which should be
impossible if you use a tripod as described above) or the camera isn't
focusing properly (is it in manual-focus mode by accident?). Once
you've got pictures of furniture turning out nice and sharp, you can
turn your attention to taking pictures of your kids.

So, take your pictures, and see how they turn out. If the people are
blurry, but nothing else (like the chairs) is, then they're moving. It
could be hard to get the toddlers sitting still enough to get the
picture, so you'll need to get a faster shutter speed.

Option #1: Use a large aperture (this is a low f-stop number). For the
kit lens, that's something like 4.0 or 4.5. If that doesn't cut it, you
could try a faster lens. The Canon 50mm f/1.8 is probably a good
choice, since it's cheap (about $100, probably less), high-quality, and
fast (f/1.8 is more than four times as fast as f/4.0, so your shutter
speed might go from 1/25 (bad) to 1/100 (good). Disadvantages: It's
fixed at 50mm (it doesn't zoom), and that's may not be the most useful
length for the type of photography you're doing. Also, the larger
apertures (low f-stops) have narrow depth-of-field (not as much of the
world will be in focus). In a group shot, it may be hard to get
everyone's face in focus at the same time.

Option #2: Use more light. That's what the flash does, but you don't
like the effects of the flash, so you'll have to either go somewhere
brighter, or turn on more lights. It's surprising sometimes how much
light you need to get before it's actually bright enough to get away
without a flash.

Option #3: Crank up the ISO (which you've already tried). Try 800,
1600, even 3200 if you've got it. Just like using a large aperture, you
get a faster shutter speed. In this case, the disadvantage is that you
get more noise (grain) in the picture. 3200 will probably be terrible,
but 800 should be usable, and 1600 might be, depending on your camera
and how picky you are.

Option #4: Use the flash. This is a lot like option #2, except easier,
more reliable, and more likely to give you results you don't like.
Getting good results with flash photography can be tricky, especially
if you're using the pop-up flash that's built into the camera. I don't
have a lot of useful advice in this department, because it's not
something I'm particularly good at.

If you're still having problems, it would be great if you could show us
one of the pictures. In addition to visually judging what might be
wrong, the camera embeds all sorts of useful information into the
picture (like shutter speed, aperture, and ISO) that helps diagnose
this sort of thing.

Feel free to contact me via email if you're having a hard time getting
this straightened out. Good luck!

- Darryl
Recycle THIS - 26 Nov 2006 14:50 GMT
> It's difficult to say exactly what the problem is without seeing a
> sample, but I'd guess that the problem is a slow shutter speed. This
[quoted text clipped - 83 lines]
> Feel free to contact me via email if you're having a hard time getting
> this straightened out. Good luck!

Excellent advice.

Option #2 - Tie the little sods up...........
ROMPWORTHY - 27 Nov 2006 12:03 GMT
Not sure what the remarks are about me posting under my hubbys name - I just
was letting you know in case hes asked similar questions for me - so there
was no confusion?!  DOnt know what the issue is?

Anyhow thanks for the ideas I did manage to get a couple decent pics out of
the cluster I took but I have a session with a friends this weekend so Ill
have to sit down and try some of these options.

I did use a remote release and tripod.  Those turned out better but my girls
still had blur on almost all of them.  I think it maybe the lighting and
someone recommended a backwards strobe to help.  Im using just house lighting
but its bright and warm and fills the room well.  Flash washes out bad.  

Thanks Ill keep trying I also got some good recs on using Manual mode so
somethin ought ta work.

>> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast please:
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
>- Darryl
JC Dill - 27 Nov 2006 17:19 GMT
>I did use a remote release and tripod.  Those turned out better but my girls
>still had blur on almost all of them.  

That's because the shutter is too slow to stop the action of your
subjects (your children).  You need a faster shutter setting.

>I think it maybe the lighting and
>someone recommended a backwards strobe to help.  Im using just house lighting
>but its bright and warm and fills the room well.  Flash washes out bad.  

Your house lighting isn't bright enough.  That's why flash results in
washing out - when you use flash in bright light you get flash fill
and it doesn't wash out the subject.

>Thanks Ill keep trying I also got some good recs on using Manual mode so
>somethin ought ta work.

The modes don't change the outcome they just change who decides the
outcome.  With TV mode you set the time (the shutter speed) and let
the camera set the f-stop.  With AV mode you set the aperture (f-stop)
and let the camera set the shutter.  With manual mode you set them
both.

The Av setting lets you set the f-stop and then the camera sets a slow
enough shutter speed to gather enough light for the photo.  When you
change to Tv setting and select a shutter speed fast enough to stop
the action, the camera knows it can't gather enough light even with
the lens wide open, so it insists on using flash and you get the
washed out image.  The only thing manual mode would let you do here is
override the camera's light meter and get a badly underexposed image
by forcing it to use a fast shutter and wide open f-stop when there
isn't enough light to get a good image with those settings (which is
why Tv mode insists that you use the flash).

The problem is that you don't have enough light to get a fast enough
shutter to stop the action of your children.  Using manual mode isn't
going to fix that.  You have 2 choices - provide more light, or use a
higher ISO (and have a noisier image).

Strobes are just another type of flash.  Unless you understand how to
use them you will have the same wash-out and glare problems using a
strobe that you have now with the on-camera flash.  I suggest that you
focus instead on changing your sitting location to somewhere that has
much brighter light, or providing more ambient lighting to your
present sitting location.  Consider getting a "shop light" at the
hardware store and aiming it at a white ceiling or wall (or reflector)
to produce bright reflected light.

jc

p.s.  please don't top post.  Snip unnecessary text from the text you
quote, leaving just enough quoted text to provide context for your
reply, and then put your reply under.  (Google "top posting is bad"
for 1001 reasons why if you want to know why, if "we don't top post in
this forum" isn't a good enough reason.)
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"The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."  
    ~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA

ROMPWORTHY - 27 Nov 2006 12:05 GMT
PS Shutter speed doesnt seem slow in this light either ?  If I still have
problems Ill email you a pic.  Thanks again

>> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast please:
>
[quoted text clipped - 95 lines]
>
>- Darryl
Rod Williams - 29 Nov 2006 15:28 GMT
> Posting under my husabands name here could really use some help & fast please:
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> Thanks

On my Rebel XT I go to Manual mode set the shutter speed to 200 and
aperature to 5.6 and get pretty good results. It doesn't allow for great
distances and doesn't get much room light. You can pick any shutter
speed up to 200. I also have 580 EX speedlight which is great.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 29 Nov 2006 20:50 GMT
> On my Rebel XT I go to Manual mode set the shutter speed to 200 and
> aperature to 5.6 and get pretty good results.

Translation: Make the shutter as fast as possible, to remove most
natural light, but let in the flash light

However: it has to be _fully_ open at some moment: the flash
lasts maybe 1/1000s (full power) or 1/10.000s or less; if the
shutter is not completely open --- boom, black borders.

That works out to the 'flash sync speed' of 1/200s.[0]

Aperture: For digital crop cams, f/5.6 to f/8 is usually the about
the sharpest setting for the lens.  (good, expensive lenses stay
sharp at wider apertures, and all lenses start to suffer at f/11
or f/16 on these cameras[1], due to diffraction; you get more
depth of field, but even the 'sharpest' parts go softer).

f/5.6 means you get quite a bit depth of field, so keep the
distance cild-background large compared to camera-child. The depth
of field also helps you if the focus is a bit off, since as long
as the child is in the depth of field, zie'll still be sharp.

f/5.6 additionally lets in less non-flash light, helping the
shutter speed of 1/200s.

> It doesn't allow for great distances

The flash cares not at all about 1/10s or 1/200s, but it does
care about the aperture.  It'll need to pump out much more light
at f/5.6 than at f/2.8 or f/1.4.  The inbuild flash has a guide
number of ca 12 (meters), IIRC.

That means: GN of the flash (in meters, at ISO 100) / aperture
is the maximal distance the flash will work OK at ISO 100.

i.e. 12m / 5.6 = 2.1 meters, at ISO 100.

(the range would increase a bit, up to 50% if the flash was only
adding light, but inside your house it won't.)

Doubling the ISO only gains you a factor SQRT(2) (~= 1.4) more,
doubling the ISO twice doubles the max flash range once.

i.e. 2.1 meters @ ISO  100
 => 4.2 meters @ ISO  400
 => 8.4 meters @ ISO 1600

However, you do _so_ not want direct flash, not on portraits ...
unless you are shooting outside in a bright day (and then _try_
for an overcast day, at least try _outside_ a couple hours round
noon), when the flash can fill in shadows.

> I also have 580 EX speedlight which is great.

That is a powerful external flash.  Among other things, you can
point it's flash head up towards the ceiling or a wall (wich looks
_much_ _much_ better than direct flash), or use it as a master
or slave flash (shooting other flashes off camera).  It has a GN
of IIRC, 27 (wide angle) to 58 (105 mm setting), quite powerful!

You may prefer the previous version, the 550 EX, or the cheaper
and smaller ones.  You may even take an old flash (but beware
of the voltage of the pins, too much there and it can fry your
camera!  Check the manuals, meter the flash if unsure!), and
set it manually, experiment with it (you do have a histogram on
camera) or even use an old 'auto'-flash (which switches of once
it's sensor got enough light from the flash, which, excepting
shooting rather mirrory objects, should do fine and works as
you think it does).

Hint: In P, Av and Tv, the camera tries for available light
(P won't go slower than 1/60s, though), so using M and the
flash computer for flash only light (as we do here) is the
right way.

If you go for a Canon EX flash, be sure to read:
   http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/
once the flash doesn't seem to do what you want.  The automatic
can be, ah ... tricky ... unless you understand what it does.

-Wolfgang

[0] You can use faster shutter times with the 'FP' setting on a
   flash that hast this option, which flickers the flash light
   70.000 times/second.  However, that cuts the actual flash
   range by a factor or 2 or 3 ... and thus won't help you.
   I don't think the inbuild flash can do that, either.

[1] Smaller sensors have that border earlier, most P&S don't
   do well at f/8, large format can do well up to f/32 or
   f/64.
Rod Williams - 29 Nov 2006 22:22 GMT
>>On my Rebel XT I go to Manual mode set the shutter speed to 200 and
>>aperature to 5.6 and get pretty good results.
>
> Translation: Make the shutter as fast as possible, to remove most
> natural light, but let in the flash light

1/200 seems to be the fastest the built in flash will work but my 580ex
can go much faster. One really interesting thing I found with the 580EX
is that say you have someone sitting in front of a window. You can
manually expose for the window and the camera and flash will calculate
the amount of flash to put on the foreground subject and keeping the
window exposure perfect. Truly amazing.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 30 Nov 2006 11:40 GMT
> 1/200 seems to be the fastest the built in flash will work but my 580ex
> can go much faster.

In FP mode.  It's not a problem of the flash, it's a shutter
limitation.

> One really interesting thing I found with the 580EX
> is that say you have someone sitting in front of a window. You can
> manually expose for the window and the camera and flash will calculate
> the amount of flash to put on the foreground subject and keeping the
> window exposure perfect. Truly amazing.

That is 'works as designed', especially with E-TTL and lens
distance ...

-Wolfgang
 
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