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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006

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Nervous About  A Lens Purchase

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RPN - 25 Nov 2006 02:28 GMT
I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
manufacturers, making the best of lenses, occasionally makes a lens that
does not focus properly or has some other defect.  I have no idea if
these accounts represent 10% of the lenses sold or .0001% of the lenses
sold.  To me this is a very expensive purchase that I don't take
lightly.  I wonder, even if it is only .0001% chance, what can I expect
of Canon or a reputable dealer such as B&H or Adorama if I am that
"lucky" person who hits that .0001%.

Are there any of you that can offer some insight on how prevalent
manufacturing problems really are, how often problems are successfully
resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a hassle it is?
Thanks.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 25 Nov 2006 04:20 GMT
> I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
> accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a hassle it is?
> Thanks.  

What do you intend to use this lens for?  Do you really need a
zoom?  Regardless of manufacturing, zooms are not as sharp
as fixed focal length lenses.

I have the 100-400 IS L, and it produces OK images, but
just OK.  My lens is not real sharp at 400mm.  Also, with
the style of the lens, it pumps air in and out, moving
dust along with it, so onto your sensor.
These images were taken with the 100-400:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.mtn_goat/web/c031302.04.06-600.baby
.goat.html

(click next 3 times to view 4 images).
They make ok 8x10x, but are slightly soft.  The above
images were on film (velvia) but the same image quality
happens on digital.

My 100-400 sits on a shelf, and has for several years.
I replaced it with a 300 mm f/4 L IS.  For longer reach, I add
a 1.4x TC, and it is still sharper than the 100-400,
giving 420mm at f/5.6, and it is cheaper, lighter and smaller
than the 100-400.  Here is an example image with the
300mm + 1.4x (a Kenko pro 300) TC:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/lorikeet.c04.07.2005.JZ3F8
962.b-700.html


I can make nice 16x20s with the 300, but not the 100-400.

Roger
RPN - 26 Nov 2006 04:21 GMT
> > I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
> > accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
[quoted text clipped - 37 lines]
>
> Roger

Thanks for the insight.  In answer to your question on what I would use
it for, it would be mostly wildlife in general and birds in particular.
I presently use a point and shoot type Nikon 8700 that has served me
well for several years, but now that I have recently retired, I plan to
upgrade to a DSLR system and spend a little more time at it.  It will
however always be a hobby for personal pleasure, and not a profession.  
An activity that I can enjoy and that will get me outside.  

I did do a lot reading on the web first and thought the 100-400 zoom
best met my needs and budget, but after reading your post, I went back
and did even more research.  You are right, the 300 mm F4, does look
like it produces better images, but what really convinced me that the
100-400 was not the best choice was a statement I ran across in one of
the reviews that stated that the zoom was not all that useful if you
are going to shoot most of the time at the full 400mm. That reminded me
that for what I have been doing, 99% of the time, there was never
enough reach.  I don't think this will be any different. Even using the
300mm with the 1.4 TC at 420mm, I will probably be always wishing I had
more, not less.  I had blinders on and was convinced that I wanted a
zoom, so that is what I had looked at, and was giving up picture
quality in the process.  I still plan on a zoom for a general walk
around lens and casual shooting, but that is another story.   Thanks
again.

In regard to the other posters that answered my original question with
helpful responses, or supported Roger's assessment, I appreciate that
you took the time to answer.  I have read them all.  

When you spend a lot of time on the web reading, you do come across
posts etc. where people have had trouble with a particular lens, and in
at least one case, they stated they had used two samples of a given
lens at various times and one they had been happy with, and one they
had not.  You suspect such instances are few and far between but you
don't know for sure.  Your comments have helped reassure me that they
are indeed isolated instances, and the response is generally good by
the manufacturer when they do occur.  Thanks for your patience.
Skip - 26 Nov 2006 05:42 GMT
> When you spend a lot of time on the web reading, you do come across
> posts etc. where people have had trouble with a particular lens, and in
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> are indeed isolated instances, and the response is generally good by
> the manufacturer when they do occur.  Thanks for your patience.

100-400 at 100mm wide open:
http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/51380601
At f8:
http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/51380602

At 400mm wide open (f5.6):
http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/51380604
and at f8:
http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/51380604

Not definitive, I know, but maybe it'll help...

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Mark² - 26 Nov 2006 07:44 GMT
>> When you spend a lot of time on the web reading, you do come across
>> posts etc. where people have had trouble with a particular lens, and
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> Not definitive, I know, but maybe it'll help...

Now if only you'd had a 300mm f4 handy that day...  :)

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Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Bart van der Wolf - 27 Nov 2006 00:58 GMT
> Now if only you'd had a 300mm f4 handy that day...  :)

:) indeed, but Skip's examples, and Roger's evaluations do support the
notion that the 100-400mm is not optimal, like most zoom options (with
very few potential exceptions).

Signature

Bart

Mark² - 27 Nov 2006 04:06 GMT
>> Now if only you'd had a 300mm f4 handy that day...  :)
>
> :) indeed, but Skip's examples, and Roger's evaluations do support the
> notion that the 100-400mm is not optimal, like most zoom options (with
> very few potential exceptions).

Ya.  I've owned two copies of that lens, and it was less than perfect, but I
don't think Skip's example is a very typical example shot.  This is a more
likely subject example for that lens:
http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/47306216/original

My first copy was stolen, and I sold the replacement after seeing it sit on
the shelf after I bought the 70-200 2.8 IS.  With my more recent use of the
full frame 5D and the lack of perceived enlargement (crop factor) I've found
myself wishing for 400mm again (my 200 + 1.4+1.6 cropped 10D made me miss it
less, with similar field of view to 448mm...).

My ideal zoom tele would be a Canon 200-400 f4 (unless 2.8 isn't too much to
ask), or perhaps a 200-500 f4.  But alas...Canon makes neither...  Nikon's
version is right up there in price with the best super-teles, so I'm sure a
Canon rendition would be up there as well...  For this reason, I've been
tempted to re-acquire the 100-400, but I know I'd be unhappy with the 5.6
aperture.  Given an extra $6K+, I'd grab the 400mm 2.8 IS and return to
Alaska for a month or two...

Oh well...for now.

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Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

RPN - 26 Nov 2006 16:12 GMT
> > When you spend a lot of time on the web reading, you do come across
> > posts etc. where people have had trouble with a particular lens, and in
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Not definitive, I know, but maybe it'll help...

Thanks for the input.  If there are others that are looking as well, I
think the URL for last one (400mm at F8) should be

http://www.pbase.com/skipm/image/51380605

Also, I have a way off topic question.  The shorter building on the far
left hand side of the frame appears to have an antenna system of some
sort (mast with wires running radially to the edges) on the roof.  Do
you know anything about that?  Just curious.
Skip - 27 Nov 2006 05:22 GMT
> Thanks for the input.  If there are others that are looking as well, I
> think the URL for last one (400mm at F8) should be
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> sort (mast with wires running radially to the edges) on the roof.  Do
> you know anything about that?  Just curious.

Well, since that is a federal building/prison, I'm not sure I want to
know...

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Prometheus - 27 Nov 2006 06:06 GMT
>> Thanks for the input.  If there are others that are looking as well, I
>> think the URL for last one (400mm at F8) should be
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>Well, since that is a federal building/prison, I'm not sure I want to
>know...
In which case it is probably the base station antenna for the wardens.

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Ian             G8ILZ

RPN - 27 Nov 2006 14:57 GMT
> >> Thanks for the input.  If there are others that are looking as well, I
> >> think the URL for last one (400mm at F8) should be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> >know...
> In which case it is probably the base station antenna for the wardens.

Perhaps, but it looks large enough to be an HF antenna.  I am not sure
why they would need that in a prison for local communications.  My
guess is that being in an urban setting, it would be a lesser prison
and other Federal agencies are in the building, and one of those would
use it.  But as I say it is a guess, and with no other facts, yours is
certainly as good as mine.
Skip - 29 Nov 2006 01:20 GMT
>>> Thanks for the input.  If there are others that are looking as well, I
>>> think the URL for last one (400mm at F8) should be
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>>know...
> In which case it is probably the base station antenna for the wardens.

More than likely.

Signature

Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm

Al Monte - 25 Nov 2006 06:54 GMT
Grow up and don't be so paranoid.

>I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
> accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a hassle it is?
> Thanks.
Mark² - 25 Nov 2006 07:31 GMT
> Grow up and don't be so paranoid.

An unnecessary comment, Al, and frankly rather thoughtless.
He's asking a legitimate question about a fairly expensive lens.

Your silly comment aside... I've owned two of these lenses (first was
stolen, and replaced by another).
Both were excellent, though I wished for larger a larger aperture.  In the
end, I tended to leave the 100-400 at home, taking the 70-200 2.8 IS
instead.

>> I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
>> accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>> successfully resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a
>> hassle it is? Thanks.

Signature

Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 14:48 GMT
> > Grow up and don't be so paranoid.
>
> An unnecessary comment, Al, and frankly rather thoughtless.

There is having an open mind, and then there is your brains on the
floor.  ;-/

> He's asking a legitimate question about a fairly expensive lens.

Open your eyes.  His purpose was the spreading of FUD.

> Your silly comment aside... I've owned two of these lenses (first was
> stolen, and replaced by another).
> Both were excellent, though I wished for larger a larger aperture.  In the
> end, I tended to leave the 100-400 at home, taking the 70-200 2.8 IS
> instead.

I agree with Roger Clark:  while 100-400 is ok, it is the sub-optimal
in many ways, especially at the long end.  You will obtain better
results with the 300/4 and a 1.4x teleconverter.  Ditto your 70-200/2.8
suggestion as well.
Mark² - 25 Nov 2006 18:26 GMT
>>> Grow up and don't be so paranoid.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> results with the 300/4 and a 1.4x teleconverter.  Ditto your
> 70-200/2.8 suggestion as well.

I agree with Roger too, but for a zoom in this range, it's tough to beat.
I actually sold my 100-400 because of non-use.  But the "grow up" comment
was just silly.

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Images (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at:
       www.pbase.com/markuson

Alan Browne - 25 Nov 2006 19:35 GMT
> But the "grow up" comment was just silly.

A review of other posts by that poster show that he's not worth replying to.
Mark² - 25 Nov 2006 19:43 GMT
>> But the "grow up" comment was just silly.
>
> A review of other posts by that poster show that he's not worth
> replying to.

Likely so, though I think this one post from him is probably sufficient to
similarly conclude that...

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       www.pbase.com/markuson

Tony Polson - 25 Nov 2006 09:56 GMT
>I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
>accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
>manufacturing problems really are, how often problems are successfully
>resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a hassle it is?

There is more of a problem with Canon than other brands.  However, the
problem usually lies in the camera body and not the lens.

The reason for the problem is that Canon mounts the AF sensor
unusually close to the rear element of the lens.  As a result, its
positioning needs to be much more accurate in order to obtain true
focus.

Canon's manufacturing quality is as good as anyone else's.  It is just
the design of the camera's AF system that asks far more of the
accuracy of manufacture than with other brands.

But don't worry.  If you have a problem, Canon USA will surely
re-calibrate the camera body's autofocus sensors.  If the camera body
is still in the warranty period, you should not be charged. Otherwise,
a small charge will be made.  Remember to send both the camera and
lens so they can be tested together and properly matched.

I have had problems with AF accuracy on two Canon bodies.  Both were
been cured by Canon UK's authorised repairers, free of charge under
warranty.  They both work fine and there is no sign of the problem
recurring.
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 14:59 GMT
Tony Polson has to add his own FUD as well:

> I have had problems with AF accuracy on two Canon bodies.  Both were
> been cured by Canon UK's authorised repairers, free of charge under
> warranty.  They both work fine and there is no sign of the problem
> recurring.

I have it on good authority that when a person goes into Canon,
complaining about the AF performance of their camera, the desk people
are instructed to act sympathetic, collect the camera and ensure the
customer their issues are being put at the front of the repair queue.
The Proper Lens Active Camera Enhancement Body Operation is then
performed on the camera:  it sits on a shelf for a few days.  The
customer is then called and told the problem is fixed.  Interestingly
enough, they never come back for repair...
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 29 Nov 2006 19:37 GMT
> I have it on good authority

Does that read "A friend of a friend once pulled my leg and
told me the following rumor"?

Or do your really believe nobody would test the camera before
and after?

-Wolfgang
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 29 Nov 2006 22:32 GMT
> > I have it on good authority
>
> Does that read "A friend of a friend once pulled my leg and
> told me the following rumor"?

Actually, it could have been written "Polson, you couldn't tell if your
body had an AF problem at all", but felt my unsupported exaggerations
were a more humorous way of putting it.  I guess I failed, eh?

> Or do your really believe nobody would test the camera before
> and after?

Absolutely not.  However, it would not surprise me at all to find that
most of the "AF problem" returns to Canon were from insecure little
pissants who are in a panic because they maxed their credit cards and
generally have no idea whatsoever.  "There are semiconductor crystal
dislocations in my sensor!  You miserable liars!  I just bought this
camera for $1k and demand total perfection."

Why do I suspect this?  Well, many reasons, some I've seen and more
I've heard about:

http://www.actsofgord.com/index.html

Some people just don't deserve modern camera equipment, even if they
can afford it.
Alan Browne - 25 Nov 2006 15:16 GMT
> a small charge will be made.  Remember to send both the camera and
> lens so they can be tested together and properly matched.

A proper SLR system does not have to be "matched".

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eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 25 Nov 2006 14:42 GMT
RPN trolls:

>  I wonder, even if it is only .0001% chance, what can I expect
> of Canon or a reputable dealer such as B&H or Adorama if I am that
> "lucky" person who hits that .0001%.

I call troll.  Your probability of failure by any means is much larger
than 1 in a million.  Sounds like you can't afford this lens though.  I
suggest that if you can't comfortably replace it if you dropped it on
the sidewalk as you left the store, then you need to reconsider its
purchase.

> Are there any of you that can offer some insight on how prevalent
> manufacturing problems really are, how often problems are successfully
> resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a hassle it is?

Again, your troll nature is revealed.  Product quality, repair, and
warranty matters are total non-issues for Canon, Nikon and everyone
else.

My advice to the FUDster is simple: die.  Quickly.  Painfully.  And, if
you would be so kind, take your bullshit with you.
Alan Browne - 25 Nov 2006 15:18 GMT
> I suggest that if you can't comfortably replace it if you dropped it on
> the sidewalk as you left the store, then you need to reconsider its
> purchase.

While I disagree with the rest of your post, no truer words than above
have ever been stated about high end gear (photography and otherwise).

Cheers,
Alan

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Arnor - 30 Nov 2006 19:05 GMT
Hi Alan,

> While I disagree with the rest of your post, no truer words than above
> have ever been stated about high end gear (photography and otherwise).

Ever heard of insurance?<g>

Best regards,

Arnor Baldvinsson
San Antonio, Texas.
eawckyegcy@yahoo.com - 30 Nov 2006 19:18 GMT
> Hi Alan,
>
> > While I disagree with the rest of your post, no truer words than above
> > have ever been stated about high end gear (photography and otherwise).
>
> Ever heard of insurance?<g>

Useful for things like liability, houses and other things which can't
possibly be paid for or replaced in a reasonable length of time (to
wit:  the remainder of your life).  But for an O($1k) lens?  I don't
think so.  But I'm sure the insurance company will accept your money,
if you absolutely insist.  And they'll be utterly delighted to crank
your premiums the day after you make a claim about such a thing.
Mark² - 01 Dec 2006 01:39 GMT
>> Hi Alan,
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> if you absolutely insist.  And they'll be utterly delighted to crank
> your premiums the day after you make a claim about such a thing.

Not if you have the right insurance company...
I had a separate rider on my insurance that replaced my Canon 100-400 IS L
lens, and also my D30 and attached lens/flash...and I didn't have to pay a
dime more...and my deduct. was only $50.  They had a check for the full, new
replacement price in three days(!) both times(!).

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Arnor - 03 Dec 2006 16:17 GMT
Hi,

> Useful for things like liability, houses and other things which can't
> possibly be paid for or replaced in a reasonable length of time (to
> wit:  the remainder of your life).  But for an O($1k) lens?  I don't
> think so.

How much money is the house making?  How much money is the lens making?
It's not just aboute replacing the equipment it is also about insuring
for possible loss of income.  What happens if you are on an assignment
in Antartica or some other place and your camera bags fall into a
crevace on the first day?  Before you know it you may be tens of
thousands in the red, not to mention no income from an assignment.  It
can add up very quickly!  I hate to pay insurance premiums as much as
anybody, but you become very appreciative very quickly when you are on
the receiving end;)

Best regards,

Arnor Baldvinsson
San Antonio, Texas.
Alan Browne - 25 Nov 2006 15:13 GMT
> I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
> accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
> manufacturers, making the best of lenses, occasionally makes a lens that
> does not focus properly or has some other defect.

It is rare indeed that people complain about Canon lenses, "L" "IS"
lenses in particular.

Commit and be happy.  If you can show a defect in the lens (very
unlikely), return it for a replacement.

Cheers,
Alan

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RichA - 25 Nov 2006 23:17 GMT
> > I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
> > accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> It is rare indeed that people complain about Canon lenses, "L" "IS"
> lenses in particular.

Canon and other mfgs who use the 3:2 ratio have a built-in bad lens
fix:  The ability to crop off the sides of the image if the quality is
poor.  The top and bottom don't matter since the lens image circle (and
edge quality) fall well outside them.  If Canon had a more square
sensor format that made use of more of the lens image circle, you'd
hear many more quality complaints, especially from users of the FF
sensor cameras.
That concerns image quality.  However, Canon's AF system is (from all
reports) as good as currently exists.
Philip Homburg - 26 Nov 2006 12:01 GMT
>Canon and other mfgs who use the 3:2 ratio have a built-in bad lens
>fix:  The ability to crop off the sides of the image if the quality is
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>hear many more quality complaints, especially from users of the FF
>sensor cameras.

Please, do tell us what you have been smoking. I guess that in your
world, squares have bigger diagonals than other rectangles.

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That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency

Charles Schuler - 26 Nov 2006 21:39 GMT
>I am planning to buy the Canon 100-400mm L IS lens and I have read
> accounts on the web and various Usenet forums where even the best lens
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> manufacturing problems really are, how often problems are successfully
> resolved to the buyers satisfaction, and how much of a hassle it is?

Reading the other responses suggests that your question has not been
answered.  I'll try:

1/ A lens is a mechanical assembly and thus is subject to manufacturing
tolerances.
2/ As one pays more, one expects tighter tolerances ... and generally gets
them.
3/ Canon lenses are good buys and L lenses are generally worth their cost.
4/ Lenses can be damaged (slightly) so that anecdotal information can be
misleading.
5/ Canon has good repair depots.

Hope that helps.  By the way, I own a copy of that lens and can recommend
it.
 
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