If anyone is unhappy enough with their M8 to want to give it away I will be
happy to take it, IR warts and all . . .
> The introduction of Leica's first digital M series hasn't gone quite as
> smoothly as they will have hoped, before the camera even reached owners
[quoted text clipped - 58 lines]
> combination of a thin absorption filter on the sensor and a screw-on
> interference filter on the lens represents the best technical solution.
Red flag: the bandpass of interference filters changes with
viewing angle.
> It completely eliminates the color offset caused by infrared light.
> When using lenses from 16 to 35mm, we suggest opting for the 6-bit
> coded ones, in order to prevent a color offset towards the edges.
6-bit????
> No
> disadvantages must be expected for the images when the LEICA M8 is
> equipped with the latest firmware (from 1.10; available as of early
> December 2006).
Yeah, right. Firmware does not fix out of band filter response.
> Leica Camera AG offers every LEICA M8 customer a basic kit of two UV/IR
> filters with diameters of her/his choice and free of charge. Delivery
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> We are confident these corrective technical measures will fulfil every
> expectation of even the most demanding customers.
This sounds like a band aid that is going to fall off.
Roger
RichA - 25 Nov 2006 01:13 GMT
> > The introduction of Leica's first digital M series hasn't gone quite as
> > smoothly as they will have hoped, before the camera even reached owners
[quoted text clipped - 94 lines]
>
> This sounds like a band aid that is going to fall off.
I pretty much figured they'd do the filter fix. Scraping the Kodak
sensors and re-fitting them with new ones with a stronger IR filter
attached would have been....expensive. These sensors were spec'd for
Leica so I wonder if they were the ones who specified the weak IR
filter?
> Roger
Gisle Hannemyr - 25 Nov 2006 04:18 GMT
>> When using lenses from 16 to 35mm, we suggest opting for the 6-bit
>> coded ones, in order to prevent a color offset towards the edges.
> 6-bit????
Leica uses a 6 bit optical code on newer lenses for identification
purposes: http://www.leica-camera.us/news/news/1/801.html . I
assume that this means some of their embedded software need to know
the focal length of the lens in order to eliminate "color offset".

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Alan Browne - 25 Nov 2006 20:29 GMT
>> It completely eliminates the color offset caused by infrared light.
>> When using lenses from 16 to 35mm, we suggest opting for the 6-bit
>> coded ones, in order to prevent a color offset towards the edges.
>
> 6-bit????
Lens ID encoding so the firmware knows which lens is mounted allowing
for the aberation correction. Leica will add the codes to your existing
lenses (or at least some of them).
>> No
>> disadvantages must be expected for the images when the LEICA M8 is
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>
> Roger
Every DSLR maker has had product introduction issues. Considering the
lack of manufacturing might at Leica and that it is not an electronics
co. at all, it is not surprising that they have had these issues.

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achilleaslazarides@yahoo.co.uk - 25 Nov 2006 21:32 GMT
> Every DSLR maker has had product introduction issues. Considering the
> lack of manufacturing might at Leica and that it is not an electronics
> co. at all, it is not surprising that they have had these issues.
I don't think that one has to be a manufacturing giant to a) Have a
thorough understanding of IR contamination issues, b) Test their
solution to these issues.
Philip Homburg - 25 Nov 2006 22:31 GMT
>b) Test their
>solution to these issues.
That's the surprising part. If they had said during the introduction that
they had to accept some IR sensitivity as a trade-off to get the most out
of their lenses, then I guess that most people would have accepted that.
However, now they simply look incompetent.

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Alan Browne - 26 Nov 2006 01:46 GMT
>>Every DSLR maker has had product introduction issues. Considering the
>>lack of manufacturing might at Leica and that it is not an electronics
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> thorough understanding of IR contamination issues, b) Test their
> solution to these issues.
Any product line introduction carries risks that there will have been
things overlooked, under estimated for risk or over estimated for success.
In order to test for something, you first have to identify the risk or
problem and then design for it and test it. They may have not gone far
enough in their evaluation or assessment of the liklihood of the problem
appearing.
As for their "might" (not giantness) this goes to identifying the risks
before they occure.
I'm not apologizing for Leica. At the prices they charge and in
maintaining the Leica excellence ideal in all of their marketing, one
would expect flawless execution.
Prinicpally they also have debt (lots) and shareholders (somewhat
patient). This leads to pressure to get the product out and to not
bankrupt the place while doing so.
Cheers,
Alan

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Bart van der Wolf - 27 Nov 2006 00:41 GMT
SNIP
>> Our solution: We will offer special screw-on type UV/IR filters for all
>> Leica M lenses. With respect to the Leica M's compact build the
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Red flag: the bandpass of interference filters changes with
> viewing angle.
Yes, I already noticed that several years ago on my Powershot G3 when
testing the effects of IR contamination on color saturation/accuracy
with the B+W 486 IR/UV cut interference filter:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/B+W_486_reflect.jpg> .
At 7.0mm zoom position (=approx. 28mm at 35mm full frame equivalence):
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/G3_07-0_LM_486_C.jpg>
it is already visible without manipulation on an out-of-focus ()linear
gamma graycard shot.
Even the 28.8mm (=approx.115mm @ 35mm FF equiv.) position is not void
of the effect, but might be obscured by detail:
<http://www.xs4all.nl/~bvdwolf/main/downloads/G3_28-8_LM_486_C.jpg>
SNIP
>> No disadvantages must be expected for the images when the LEICA M8
>> is equipped with the latest firmware (from 1.10; available as of
>> early
>> December 2006).
>
> Yeah, right. Firmware does not fix out of band filter response.
Leica already had to use special offset micro-lenses to combat light
falloff issues, due to the non-retrofocus lens design on this M8
rangefinder. Not having to account for an SLR mirror box ("the Leica
M's compact build") allows more symmetrical lens designs, but
unfortunately (for angle of incidence issues) the exit pupil is closer
to the focus plane for normal to wide focal lengths.
The fact that their newer lenses are bar coded to detect the focal
length, and the (by design) thinner CCD IR filter window, suggests to
me that Leica was aware of the potential issues of oblique angles of
incidence, and has a postprocessing fix attempt in place to address
several issues (in addition to an attempt to mitigate the lack of an
AA-filter).
> This sounds like a band aid that is going to fall off.
I agree, especially since in my opinion it is better to fundamentally
avoid these issues, rather than 'fix' them in postprocessing.
Aggregate 'fixes' tend to create their own need for further 'fixes'...

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