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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / February 2007"grey cameras"
It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have the warranty as one purchased in US. But I question how these two cameras (or the same brand and model) would be physically different. If one were metric and the other imperial then from an engineering standpoint this makes no sense because of increased manufacturing costs. Do local camera shops sell "grey cameras" or does this really matter? And what are the cost differences to the buyer? 10%? > It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then > bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > costs. Do local camera shops sell "grey cameras" or does this really > matter? And what are the cost differences to the buyer? 10%? There is several ways the camera's can be different. 1. No difference to the product but just to the packaging. 2. Differences in serial numbers only. 3. Differences in the firmware. (The loaded software). (For example a different set in languages). 4. Functional differences in the firmware. (For example an extra function or a missing function). 5. Different building sites for the product. Some products are produced in different factories. (Not to likely with camera's). 6. Different types on the outside of the camera. 7. Different markings on the camera. (For example for the Japanese marked, the markings on the camera could be different). 8. Different brand but the same internals. 9. Different brand but the same internals, but different software. 10. Different camera but the same sensor. Most of the above technologies have been used. And yes making differences makes the product more expensive. But that way you can handle different markets. ben >It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then >bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have >the warranty as one purchased in US. No... It might be a better warranty. It depends where you buy it. > But I question how these two >cameras (or the same brand and model) would be physically different. >If one were metric and the other imperial then from an engineering >standpoint this makes no sense because of increased manufacturing >costs. I think you will find that all cameras are metric... They only make each camera to one design no matter where it is produced and since most of the world is metric for this sort of thing they will all be metric. Also as most digital camera have multiple languages in them the only difference is likely to be serial numbers. So they will know which country the distributor was in. Another problem might be which manual is packed with it. It could also be old or even stolen stock. > Do local camera shops sell "grey cameras" or does this really >matter? And what are the cost differences to the buyer? 10%? It matters in some cases when you need to get something fixed under warranty. Some companies may insist you get it fixed in the country it was bought from (or pay) The reason why there may be grey stock is prices (and purchase taxes) are not constant across the world. Therefore some dealers can buy at a lower trade price in one country and sell at a higher retail price in another. This is why the local dealer and indeed the company itself my insist you go back to country of origin for warranty.  Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > >It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then > >bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > camera to one design no matter where it is produced and since most of the world > is metric for this sort of thing they will all be metric. In the past, one difference was the camera's video out, with the camera being hardwired to emit PAL or NTSC, but now most cameras probably have a menu option of which TV format to use (for example, my 5 year old C-2100UZ is hardwired to NTSC, since it was made for the USA market). SignatureMichael Meissner email: mrmnews@the-meissners.org http://www.the-meissners.org "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> > In the past, one difference was the camera's video out, with the camera > being [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > hardwired to > NTSC, since it was made for the USA market). According to the Nikon web site, other differences would be: 1: Manuals not printed in English 2: AC Adapters not set up for 120 volt North American current. 3: Menus that are in languages other than English 4: Absence of proper safety certifications, such as UL seal or FCC approval seal. 5: Incorrect connecting cables 6: Inability to obtain manufacturers' servicing or parts from the official USA importer, requiring you to send the unit back to its country of origin. Higher shipping and insurance costs, along with possible customs hassles each way. 7: Model numbers different from what are being sold in USA 8: Diminished resale value, because the unit may be difficult to have serviced. "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> > According to the Nikon web site, other differences would be: > 2: AC Adapters not set up for 120 volt North American current. That's pretty poor form in this day and age - with so much global travel anything reliant upon a battery charger should be able to cope with anywhere, especially something like a camera which is more likely to be taken on holiday. Is this another Canon vs Nikon issue? All the Canon battery chargers I've had with cameras bought in the UK have been universal voltage models :-) > "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message > news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I've had with cameras bought in the UK have been universal voltage > models :-) I am considering buying my roommate (EX-WIFE) a small digital camera that she can handle. I've seen ads for the Canon 6mp on HalfPrice.com for 100 bucks. Is this stuff true. I mean you can't get a price like that at Walgreens or Walmart. Harry Flaxman Applications Engineer (retired) >> "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message >> news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> [quoted text clipped - 20 lines] > >Applications Engineer (retired) Depends on which Canon 6mp model you're talking about. There's no such think as *the* Canon 6mp model. SignatureSenate Democrats proposed ethics reform legislation on Tuesday. It calls for lawmakers to pay the real cost of corporate jet flights and the full cost of skybox tickets for sporting events. If you want to know ahead of time what's going to happen to this bill, you simply need to watch the last five minutes of Old Yeller. > >> "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message > >> news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > need to watch the last five minutes > of Old Yeller. Bill... Sorry 'bout that. I meant the Canon 4mp or 5mp model. It's advertised for between 100 and 139 bucks depending upon what store you go to. Comes with picture printer and accessories. It looks like a good deal, but I'm not committing myself at this point. I don't know if I'm getting rid of my roommate or what today.:):) Harry Flaxman Applications Engineer (retired) >> >> "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message >> >> news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > >Applications Engineer (retired) *WHICH* model is that? Each camera has a model name or number. There is no *the* Canon 4mp or 5mp model. If you're really an engineer, you understand the concept of defining what you're talking about. At least a URL link to the model you mean would be good. SignatureNew Jersey threw out a one-hundred-fifty-year-old law Thursday that prevents idiots from voting. It threw the presidential race into chaos. As if Hillary Clinton wasn't facing enough problems, William Shatner is now leading in New Jersey. > "Michael Meissner" <mrmnews@the-meissners.org> wrote in message > news:m38xgip268.fsf@pumpkin-head.the-> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I've had with cameras bought in the UK have been universal voltage > models :-) More C.VS N. BS. If you mean "AC Adapter" as Nikon uses the term, my EH-6 is universal voltage as is my EH-53. If you mean AC as in Battery Chargers, I have the MH-53, MH-21, MH-15, MH-20 and MH-30 and ALL OF THEM are listed as 100-240V~50/60Hz. In other words Universal Voltage. Even the "Wall-Wart" type (supplied with the Coolwalker), which serves as both a "charger" and an "adapter" is universal voltage. Bob >It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then >bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >costs. Do local camera shops sell "grey cameras" or does this really >matter? And what are the cost differences to the buyer? 10%? As the others have mentioned, the main difference is warranty. I bought a grey D70 in UK, and fortunately had no problems during the one year warranty period. Two other differences not mentioned: 1. serial number --- for example, Nikon's serial numbers let them know what market the camera was sold for. So mine is a s.asia [australia] camera. This is how they control warranty support. They just don't expect people to move around the world. What if you bought a camera living in one country, and move to another? Why should you have to send the camera back to your original country for service? The same 'artificial' market segmentation happens in DVDs with the region code. Don't get me started... 2. power supply. Almost all power supplies will take a wide range of input, but it might be supplied with only one (detachable) mains cable, which doesn't have a plug to match your socket. You might need a new mains cable, or socket adapter. For me, it worked. I'm happy. SignatureKen Tough > What if you bought a camera living in one country, and move to another? > Why should you have to send the camera back to your original > country for service? If you purchased the product overseas, from the official importer in the local jurisdiction, there is usually reciprocity among the various importers to honor each others' warranties. You would probably need to show a dated receipt, and present the warranty card from the overseas OFFICIAL importer, to obtain service. A gray market customer will not have a dated receipt from a foreign retailer, nor will he have an official importer's warranty card, making it relatively easy to spot the parallel-imported item and to decline to provide support. The gray market customer should seek support from the company that imported the goods. Usually, they find that the unofficial importer offers little or no after-sale support, effectively reducing the value of the goods to near-zero. Unfortunately, some unscrupulous retailers sell gray-market cameras to unsuspecting buyers, advertising that they come with "USA Warranties." Sure the unit was warranted by a USA-based company, but that company was NOT the official importer, and the camera is still gray-market. Other retailers just lie, and tell the customer that the unit is officially-imported, then send a gray market item in its place. One way to protect one's self is to not place any orders by phone or fax, but to send the order by US Mail. If there is a "switcheroo," the customer can have the Postal Inspection Service investigate for fraud. Of course, the order itself must clearly state that the goods being ordered are officially-imported, not gray market, and must contain all the factory-packed accessories. Frankly, if you have to resort to this, it might be better to buy somewhere else. Those that stick with reputable retailers like B&H, Adorama or even AMAZON.COM, are protected from such scams, as any gray market items are clearly disclosed to be such. I am always amazed at how many people will fall for a price that is a few dollars less, and then end up getting a bum deal, when they could have just paid the fair-market price and gotten first-class goods and service. >The gray market customer should seek support from the company that imported >the goods. Usually, they find that the unofficial importer offers little or >no after-sale support, effectively reducing the value of the goods to >near-zero. Oh yeah, I meant to mention B&H's policy on grey market.. >Those that stick with reputable retailers like B&H, Adorama or even >AMAZON.COM, are protected from such scams, as any gray market items are >clearly disclosed to be such. B&H policy is to "self insure" so that they provide you with up to a year's warranty, available from B&H only. http://tinyurl.com/7d5xa It might be good enough for what you want, and they'll be easier to track down than the guy in a van. SignatureKen Tough > It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then > bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > costs. Do local camera shops sell "grey cameras" or does this really > matter? And what are the cost differences to the buyer? 10%? Now we detect a troll. There is no difference in the cameras. Do you really think that a camera company would build and engineer two different cameras (one imperial , the other metric). For what reason. Gray cameras are often cheaper, but remember one thing, the warranty is with the seller. You have no warranty from the manufacturer. Therefore your warranty is only as good as the shop that sells it and is only good for as long as that shop is in business. Ask who handles their warranty repair work, their qualifications and experience. Digital cameras are complex devices and unlike the days of mechanical cameras, they vary greatly from brand to brand model to model. I am not sure there are many private repair operations which can handle the current cameras. SignatureJim <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo > > It was mentioned here about purchasing a camera overseas, then > > bringing the item to the US. In this case, the camera may not have [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > there are many private repair operations which can handle the current > cameras. Cameras must be different than other purchased items. My Toyota truck, Whirlpool microwave oven, Jenaire dishwasher, Kenmore washing machine, Panasonic plasma TV, Apple iPod, Microsoft mouse all have manufacturer warranties backed by the company who made them. Are you saying that Canon's warranty depends on where you buy the camera? The store might guarrantee your purchase for 30 days, and Discover credit card company guarantees my purchase for up to six months. I ask because I'm buying my first digital camera and I am uninformed. BTW, if you really do detect a genuine troll the best response is not to. > Cameras must be different than other purchased items. My Toyota truck, > Whirlpool microwave oven, Jenaire dishwasher, Kenmore washing machine, > Panasonic plasma TV, Apple iPod, Microsoft mouse all have manufacturer > warranties backed by the company who made them. Are you saying that > Canon's > warranty depends on where you buy the camera? Canon USA's policy is to support all Canon-branded products, regardless of who imported them. Clearly it is a loss-leader for Canon, but they have elected to go that route, apparently to build goodwill. Nikon is the exact opposite. If the goods were not imported by Nikon USA, they consider you a customer of someone else, and they will decline your requests for any type of support. I have read that they won't even sell you parts unless you can provide them with a valid Nikon USA serial number for the equipment that the parts are meant for! So, you need to confirm that the equipment you are buying is, indeed, officially imported if you are buying Nikon. I believe that you can phone them and they will tell you. There is more current information on their web site. Beware of the crooked camera stores that make vague misrepresentations about the camera having a "US Warranty," (NOT a "Nikon USA Warranty") and then ship you a gray-market camera. They are experts at deception, and they will swear that you were fully-informed about what you bought, etc. Buy from B&H, Adorama or amazon.com, and you'll have no problem. As for your statement about warranties, it is not completely correct. Panasonic electronic items, for example, are warranted by the USA office of Panasonic, in Secaucus, NJ, not by the headquarters in Japan. Same with most cameras. The importer has a deal with the manufacturer to handle all warranty repairs and they price that cost into the wholesale cost of the camera, and it is ultimately passed on to the retail customer in the final price. Time was, camera manufacturers offered an "International Warranty," which allowed you to send the cameras back to Japan and the manufacturer would repair them, but that is not always the case these days. For one thing, Japanese-branded cameras are often manufactured in places like Hong Kong, Taiwan or China, not on Japanese assembly lines, making it impractical to offer parts and repairs from Japan. You need to carefully read the warranty and determine exactly which entity is offering the warranty. Most DEALERS do not warrant the goods, unless they are dead-on-arrival. So, if your new Nikon camera exhibits defects 10 days after you took delivery, the dealer that sold it to you has no obligation to take it back or replace it. He can politely refer you to whoever warranted your camera (hopefully Nikon USA!). In 1972 I purchased a VW Super Beetle. It was delivered by a US dealer, and it was warranted by Volkswagen of America, not by Volkswagen in Germany. Had I been a resident of Canada, and bought the same vehicle there, it would have been warranted by the Canadian VW importer, not VW of America, and the terms of the warranty might have been different that the terms of the warranty offered to US buyers, even though the model was the same. There are Mercedes Benz and BMW gray market importers, that bring cars into the US that were not built for the US market. Sometimes they require modifications to make them comply with US emissions laws (I recall that some of those gray market BMWs required the addition of catalytic converters, because they were European models, built for use in places that did not require them, back in the 80s.) Those vehicles are NOT warranted by the official US dealer network, and you have no right to presume that any US dealer will give you free warranty repairs, or handle any recall items, as they are not their cars. Seiko watches are often a subject of gray market imports. If your Seiko watch has a warranty card other than from the official Seiko US importer, you must send it to the gray market importer for any warranty repairs. Seiko has a little gold plaque on display in showcases of official Seiko dealers, informing buyers that this is an official dealer. You'll pay more for the watch. Since I usually shop for price on watches, I just buy wherever it is cheapest, almost always gray market, and I discard the watch when it finally fails. But I know and accept this in advance, I don't whine to the official Seiko importer if my cheapo gray market watch malfunctions. Now that virtually everything sold in the US is imported, it is important to check the warranty on any big-ticket items to confirm that ie entity issuing the warranty is who you think it is, not some no-name, no-support gray market importer. The plus side of all of this is that consumers can elect to go with the lower-priced gray market goods if they don't require after-sale support, as I do with Seiko watches. With choice comes the responsibility to check out the options. >Canon USA's policy is to support all Canon-branded products, regardless of >who imported them. Clearly it is a loss-leader for Canon, but they have [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >parts unless you can provide them with a valid Nikon USA serial number for >the equipment that the parts are meant for! That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying a new camera. >The plus side of all of this is that consumers can elect to go with the >lower-priced gray market goods if they don't require after-sale support, as >I do with Seiko watches. With choice comes the responsibility to check out >the options. I agree. However I think the brand owners should try and sort out the grey importers and not penalise the buyer. There are exceptions whey you personally import stuff especially where you buy equipment which is not spec'ed for your country eg cars. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying a > new camera. But you are in the UK, and the local practices may be different at your location. I was commenting only upon Canon USA. > I agree. However I think the brand owners should try and sort out the grey > importers and not penalise the buyer. There are exceptions whey you > personally import stuff especially where you buy equipment which is not > spec'ed for your country eg cars. I posted a few articles earlier today on the 35mm newsgroup that you might find helpful. The owners do not have any relationship with the gray market importers. They cannot sort them out. The buyer is not being penalized when he bypasses the official importer--the buyer (in the US at least) exercises his choice. Nikon USA would be very pleased if every single buyer bought officially-imported goods. The buyer is in control--he can go first class or he can choose a lesser package with little or no support. What the buyer CANNOT do is both have his cake and eat it too. Frankly I would have preferred that parallel imports had been banned entirely, but our Supreme Court ruled otherwise. Gray market buyers always cheer at the thought of getting lower prices, but they quickly exhibit sour grapes if they later want services from the official importer, to which they are not legally entitled. But please keep in mind that other countries may have completely different practices. Regardless of how one feels about how we do it in America, court rulings (which have the effect of law) give Nikon USA the right to decline to support customers that purchased through other importers. Back when Honeywell was the official US/Mexico importer of Pentax equipment, the same thing was the case--they did not support "Asahi Pentax" cameras. In fact, Honeywell pressed US Customs to enforce their rights as the registered US trademark holder of the name Pentax, and anyone trying to self-import a Pentax camera from outside the US ran the risk that customs would scratch the Pentax name on the pentaprism, thus defacing the camera. Minolta had a similar policy. Servicemen bringing Takumar lenses back from the Far East, especially Vietnam, learned to cover the Takumar name on the lens ring with a gooey black substance, until the lens passed through customs, at which time it could be safely removed. Companies invest millions of dollars in advancing name recognition of trademarks, and US law does protect trademark owners. Mamiya continues to press for protection of its trademark rights here, and I am unaware of any gray market Mamiya cameras being imported into the US. We also have a big problem with phony apparel items--Tommy Hilfiger, Gucci, Burberrys and other such branded apparel, manufactured in the Far East, and sold in the US by street vendors. Customs routinely cracks down on that stuff. It also extends to such things as pirated DVDs and VHS tapes, sold with no royalties being paid to the copyright owner. And I understand that it also extends to expensive perfumes, imported via third-world countries, sometimes counterfeit. So this gray market thing is not as unusual as it might first appear. You see the name "Nikon" on a camera, you naturally assume that it is the "real thing." But it may have come from a questionable source. It may have suffered water damage while stored in a South American warehouse, and the local importer was reimbursed by their insurance company (and the insurance company now owned all of the "damaged" cameras, and sold them at pennies on the dollar to someone that then brought them to the US as gray market cameras). When the gray market camera fails, you, the buyer, tend to blame the trademark owner, Nikon USA, even though Nikon USA would NEVER have sold you such an item. It gets to be a real mess. Even though gray market is different from counterfeit goods, they are both "cut from the same cloth," in that buyers tend to believe that they are buying something equivalent to the top-shelf product. It's one thing when one buys a $35.00 watch, and chucks it when it breaks down, but not when the price tag is $1000.00 for a camera and lens. When a big-ticket item fails, the gray market buyer tends to regret trying to have saved a couple of dollars on the initial purchase price. Now his bargain camera is fit only for use as a doorstop. >> That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying a >> new camera. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >The owners do not have any relationship with the gray market importers. >They cannot sort them out. Surely they can control who their distributors are? This is possible in most areas of distribution ? >The buyer is not being penalized when he >bypasses the official importer--the buyer (in the US at least) exercises his >choice. Fair enough. > Nikon USA would be very pleased if every single buyer bought >officially-imported goods. The buyer is in control--he can go first class >or he can choose a lesser package with little or no support. What the buyer >CANNOT do is both have his cake and eat it too. I agree. >Frankly I would have preferred that parallel imports had been banned >entirely, but our Supreme Court ruled otherwise. This starts to get difficult... We end up with camera smuggling along with the drugs :-) >Gray market buyers always cheer at the thought of getting lower prices, but >they quickly exhibit sour grapes if they later want services from the >official importer, to which they are not legally entitled. I know. However I was surprised that Nikon US will not give support even if it is paid for. >But please keep in mind that other countries may have completely different >practices. Regardless of how one feels about how we do it in America, court >rulings (which have the effect of law) give Nikon USA the right to decline >to support customers that purchased through other importers. I was not arguing with the law. That is fair enough. I note that Canon has taken a different stance. > Back when >Honeywell was the official US/Mexico importer of Pentax equipment, the same [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the Pentax name on the pentaprism, thus defacing the camera. Minolta had a >similar policy. That sounds some what restrictive. >Servicemen bringing Takumar lenses back from the Far East, especially >Vietnam, learned to cover the Takumar name on the lens ring with a gooey >black substance, until the lens passed through customs, at which time it >could be safely removed. This is worse than the old CCCP >We also have a big problem with phony apparel items--Tommy Hilfiger, Gucci, >Burberrys and other such branded apparel, manufactured in the Far East, and >sold in the US by street vendors. That is a world wide problem.... > Customs routinely cracks down on that >stuff. It also extends to such things as pirated DVDs and VHS tapes, sold >with no royalties being paid to the copyright owner. And I understand that >it also extends to expensive perfumes, imported via third-world countries, >sometimes counterfeit. Yep We have that here too.. Continual battle However unlike the grey Nikons these are complete counterfeit goods. >see the name "Nikon" on a camera, you naturally assume that it is the "real >thing." But it may have come from a questionable source. Agreed. It is still AFAIK a Nikon. Not a fake... Actually has anyone produced fake Nikons, Canons etc? > It may have >suffered water damage while stored in a South American warehouse, and the [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >the trademark owner, Nikon USA, even though Nikon USA would NEVER have sold >you such an item. It gets to be a real mess. Nikon USA is not the trade mark owner I think you will find Nikon is. I agree with your senario. The problem is that a customer could buy the grey market camera in a store in the US without realising it is a grey import. That is the problem where I think some help should be given to the end user. However if the end user buys on the internet from a store on th4e other side of the world at a very low price then they deserve all they get (or probably don't get) >Even though gray market is different from counterfeit goods, they are both >"cut from the same cloth," in that buyers tend to believe that they are >buying something equivalent to the top-shelf product. ... For next to nothing... If the deal is too good to be true it usually is. > It's one thing when >one buys a $35.00 watch, and chucks it when it breaks down, but not when the >price tag is $1000.00 for a camera and lens. When a big-ticket item fails, >the gray market buyer tends to regret trying to have saved a couple of >dollars on the initial purchase price. Now his bargain camera is fit only >for use as a doorstop. Fair enough. Though I still think Niokon USA could do repairs etc but charge the going rate. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ >>> That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying a >>> new camera. [quoted text clipped - 142 lines] > Though I still think Niokon USA could do repairs etc but charge the going > rate. Chris: One thing you have to understand is that advocates of the "Fortress America" approach to International business like "Jeremy" will die advocating for the 3rd world marketing practices of companies like Nikon USA and Nikon Canada and it has nothing to do with their "Supreme Court Decisions". It has everything to do with the warped thinking that is responsible for the "Fortress America" outlook in the first place. Canon are unique in their rational approach to dealing with their customers. And one wonders why world-wide their marketing has been so successful? Doesn't take a genius to figure it out. If you move to the USA you can expect to get no support from Nikon USA or Nikon Canada. I bought a Tamron lens while living in the US and subsequently moved to Canada. I was not only refused legitimate warranty service from their Canadian distributor, but they would not honor Tamron's written International Warranty coverage either. I ended up sending the lens back to Tamron's headquarters in New Jersey for the needed warranty repair. As I told the Canadian distributor (Amplis) at the time, their Neanderthal approach to business and Customer Relations would end up costing them a multiplicity of the new lens value. I make the total so far in excess of $30,000.00CDN. But that was their choice wasn't it. Bob > Chris: > One thing you have to understand is that advocates of the "Fortress > America" approach to International business like "Jeremy" will die > advocating for the 3rd world marketing practices of companies like Nikon > USA and Nikon Canada and it has nothing to do with their "Supreme Court > Decisions". You moved to Canada, right? So you should have no problem with US domestic trade policy now. I don't like speeding tickets, but if I exceed the legal limit, I am subject to receiving them. That is part of living in a civilized environment. Nikon USA may not like the fact that you are free to purchase through other import channels, but that is your right. You don't see them condemning you for the choice you made. YOU, on the other hand, raise the typical argument of misonformed whiners--that Company "A" ought to pick up the tab for providing support that rightfully is the responsibility of Company "B." Company "A" did not import the goods. They did not make a single penny from the sale of the goods. They did not warrant the goods. You are NOT their customer. Company "A" owes you nothing. They do not even have to provide you with fee-paid repairs or parts for equipment that they did not import. If Company "A" elects to strictly interpret those regulations, they are completely within their legal rights. If anyone does not like it, they are free to take their future business elsewhere. But you think that you are entitled to a free ride from Company "A." Well, call your M.P. and tell HIM . . . Because that is not how it works in America. > I bought a Tamron lens while living in the US and subsequently moved to > Canada. I was not only refused legitimate warranty service from their > Canadian distributor, but they would not honor Tamron's written > International Warranty coverage either. Oh, so you now have issues with Tamron, too????? And, when you sent the lens back to the American importer for service, you received it, right?? The fact that any given importer has the legally registered trademark does not mean that they are responsible for any other entity's warranties. You need to discuss your problem with an attorney and get educated about these things. The vast majority of buyers know and understand these things, and only a tiny handful of whiners keep on complaining, even when the rules are explained to them. In message <OSj7h.1$Kw2.0@trndny05>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >YOU, on the other hand, raise the typical argument of misonformed >whiners--that Company "A" ought to pick up the tab for providing support >that rightfully is the responsibility of Company "B." No... With a world class company if I buy one of their products that is highly portable I expect to get service from that company no matter where I go. Or are you suggesting that some how Nikon USA is not part of Nikon globally? So Nikon is not a world class company..... or is it just Nikon USA? It appears Nikon USA is not doing the Nikon brand any favours. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > In message <OSj7h.1$Kw2.0@trndny05>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >>"Robert Brace" <rlbrace@shaw.ca> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > So Nikon is not a world class company..... or is it just Nikon USA? > It appears Nikon USA is not doing the Nikon brand any favours. You ought to check with your official Nikon importer in the UK regarding whether you will receive support ion YOUR camera, if you were to buy it here in the US, having been imported here not by Nikon USA but by one of the gray market importers. You just might be told that your gray market camera will not be supported in the UK! As for availability of service globally, you seem to be either unable or unwilling to understand that the camera is warranted--NOT BY NIKON IN JAPAN--but by the entity that imports it. Unless the camera has an International Warranty Card enclosed in the box, you are not entitled to just walk in to any importer, anywhere in the world, and demand service. Nikon and other manufacturers do not always issue International Warranties, and when they do, the camera must be shipped back to the manufacturer. Last I hear, Japan imposes tariffs on cameras coming back into the country (I believe you can get a refund once you prove that the camera has been taken back out of Japan, but that is a process that discourages buyers from seeking service under International Warranties) You need to carefully read the terms of YOUR PARTICULAR WARRANTY CARD to determine what services you are entitled to, and where they are available. The simplest and best approach is to buy from the official importer in whatever country you live in. Gray market buyers should expect to get a runaround if the equipment requires service, because most gray market whore importers don't provide much in the way of service. The fact that the camera carries the Nikon badge does not make you a direct customer of Nikon in Japan. You are the customer of the importer whose dealer sold you the camera. I believe that you will receive "world-class" service and support if you buy from the "world-class" importer. I believe you'll probably receive crappy support if you go the cheap route. Why do you insist upon offloading your service and support issues to importers other than the one from whom you bought? If you had an officially-imported Nikon, and you sought support from one of the gray market importers, for some reason, do you think that they would help you? It works both ways, here in the US. >"Chris Hills" <chris@phaedsys.org> wrote >> No... With a world class company if I buy one of their products that is >> highly portable I expect to get service from that company no matter where [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> So Nikon is not a world class company..... or is it just Nikon USA? >> It appears Nikon USA is not doing the Nikon brand any favours. >You ought to check with your official Nikon importer in the UK regarding >whether you will receive support ion YOUR camera, if you were to buy it here >in the US, having been imported here not by Nikon USA but by one of the gray >market importers. You just might be told that your gray market camera will >not be supported in the UK! I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. Would you expect the Nikon USA product to be lower quality than the Nikon Japan product? Someone just took it on the cheek for the misconception that they might have thought non-Namerican product was actually in some physical aspect different than the Namerican product. Well, if we know (and are supposed to know --and value--) the fact that Nikon is Nikon is Nikon worldwide, then Service should have the same qualities as product. Period. [If Canon does this properly, then Nikon is on the road to suffering big time, especially in the professional market.] SignatureKen Tough > I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. I am afraid that you will have a very hard time convincing our Supreme Court of that. Parallel imports in the US are regulated by various laws and regulations, and the Nikon official importer--even though it may be a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nikon in Japan--has NO legal obligation to provide any kind of support, whether fee-based or not, on equipment that was brought into this country by any other importer. What part of this don't you understand? This has been the law for years. >"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote >> I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > >What part of this don't you understand? This has been the law for years. I couldn't give a rip what the Supreme Court says. I said: >> [If Canon does this properly, then Nikon is on the road to suffering >> big time, especially in the professional market.] The market can, and will, make Nikon pay far more than any court ever would. SignatureKen Tough >>"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote >>> I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > The market can, and will, make Nikon pay far more than any court > ever would. Then let it. SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt > I couldn't give a rip what the Supreme Court says. I said: Let's leave it there. I will honor the ruling of my Supreme Court, rather than the unqualified opinion of an individidual that does not reside here, pay taxes here or vote here. It is curious that you would be so opinionated about the domestic trade matters of a foreign nation. If a similar case ever is heard by the Supreme Court, I'll be sure to call John Roberts and tell him to call you for instruction, prior to handing down a ruling. >> I couldn't give a rip what the Supreme Court says. I said: > >Let's leave it there. I will honor the ruling of my Supreme Court, rather >than the unqualified opinion of an individidual that does not reside here, >pay taxes here or vote here. It is curious that you would be so opinionated >about the domestic trade matters of a foreign nation. The US usually manages to stick it's nose into the internal affairs of other countries. So you can't complain when others do it to the US. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > The US usually manages to stick it's nose into the internal affairs of > other countries. So you can't complain when others do it to the US. Let's not turn this into a political debate about US foreign policy, okay? My objection was that a non-US citizen has not much business dictating our DOMESTIC trade regulations, or our DOMESTIC Supreme Court decisions. I posted explanations of how our regulations evolved--not to spur debate about whether our Supreme Court was competent--but to describe how Nikon was within its legal right to deny supporting non-customers. The simple fact is that these rulings have the force of law in the US, regardless of whether or not foreigners approve. There is no need for this to morph into an "I hate US policy" debate. The answer is clear--if you do not approve of our parallel import regulations, don't buy from Nikon USA. Buy from one of your own national importers instead. And the world WILL, I assure you, keep on turning! >> The US usually manages to stick it's nose into the internal affairs of >> other countries. So you can't complain when others do it to the US. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >My objection was that a non-US citizen has not much business dictating our >DOMESTIC trade regulations, or our DOMESTIC Supreme Court decisions. But you said: >Let's not turn this into a political debate about US foreign policy, okay? Typical. Given the US pokes it's nose into everyone else's business and ignores any laws it feels like you don't have a leg to stand on. We can discuss US domestic law if we like. > I >posted explanations of how our regulations evolved--not to spur debate about >whether our Supreme Court was competent-- Can of worms.... does any one thing their own high courts are entirely competent :-) >but to describe how Nikon was >within its legal right to deny supporting non-customers. The simple fact is >that these rulings have the force of law in the US, regardless of whether or >not foreigners approve. Actually it was not just foreigners or the law. The argument was that Nikon US was not helping it's brand by hiding behind the law. It was a moral and ethical argument. (See the Caucasian Chalk circle) Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ >"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote >> I couldn't give a rip what the Supreme Court says. I said: >Let's leave it there. I will honor the ruling of my Supreme Court, rather >than the unqualified opinion of an individidual that does not reside here, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >John Roberts and tell him to call you for instruction, prior to handing down >a ruling. This is quite bizarre. I see other posters in similar threads have said the same thing. No one is saying Nikon should be forced to honour the warranty. We're all simply agreed that the fact that they don't honour it, is crap for their company and their brand, and they're shooting themselves in the foot, and the market will make them pay for it in the end. And yet you keep flying off on tangents. As they say, "whatever". SignatureKen Tough >"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote >> I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. > [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >support, whether fee-based or not, on equipment that was brought into this >country by any other importer. And anyway, my point was that people do (horror of horrors) move around the world. Someone living in europe might buy a camera, and move to Namerica. In my opinion, a company as reputable as Nikon should honour a worldwide warranty without expecting that consumer to mail their product back to Europe (or wherever). Good luck if you bought the camera in Africa.. as if I would send it back there for service after moving to Namerica. SignatureKen Tough > And anyway, my point was that people do (horror of horrors) move > around the world. Someone living in europe might buy a camera, and > move to Namerica. In my opinion, a company as reputable as Nikon > should honour a worldwide warranty without expecting that consumer > to mail their product back to Europe (or wherever). and they do, if it isn't a grey market item. >>"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > you bought the camera in Africa.. as if I would send it back there > for service after moving to Namerica. If you had been paying attention you would know that if you personally by a camera outside the US and personally bring it into the US and personally show Nikon the sales receipt indicating that you did in fact buy it yourself they'll fix it. But if it's an overseas-market camera and your sales receipt shows that you bought it from Joe's Camera Whorehouse in East Bufmuck New Jersey then they'll tell you to not let the door hit you on the way out. SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt >>>"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote >> And anyway, my point was that people do (horror of horrors) move [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >East Bufmuck New Jersey then they'll tell you to not let the door hit you >on the way out. [Gisle, in another thread, says it best:] As someone living in Norway/Europe, were prices are 30-40% higher than in the US, I have some experience in these matters. [...] Neither Canon or Nikon in Norway is willing to honour a U.S. or any other foreign guarantee here in Norway. It doesn't matter if ut is "grey market" or "full U.S. guarantee". Now pay attention! <I know, I'm talking to a couple of walls. Here we go about the bloody supreme court again...> SignatureKen Tough >>>>"Ken Tough" <ken@objectech.co.uk> wrote >>> And anyway, my point was that people do (horror of horrors) move [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > <I know, I'm talking to a couple of walls. Here we go about the > bloody supreme court again...> Well then you need to take that up with their representatives in Norway and I am at a loss to understand what relevance that has to the activities of Nikon, Inc., which as far as I know does not do business in Norway. SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt >> I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. > >I am afraid that you will have a very hard time convincing our Supreme Court >of that. It won't be the first time US courts are completely out of step with the rest of the world. >Parallel imports in the US are regulated by various laws and regulations, >and the Nikon official importer--even though it may be a wholly-owned [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > >What part of this don't you understand? This has been the law for years. The complete lack of ethics. Canon don't suffer with that. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > I agree with Chris. Nikon is Nikon. Would you expect the Nikon USA > product to be lower quality than the Nikon Japan product? Someone [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > [If Canon does this properly, then Nikon is on the road to suffering > big time, especially in the professional market.] As someone living in Norway/Europe, were prices are 30-40% higher than in the US, I have some experience in these matters. As a result of the high domestic prices, it is quite commons for Norwegians travelling to the US or the Far East to buy photographic equipment while travelling and bring it back into our country. Even if you pay import duty upon arrival (and most don't - if you "lose" the boxes, you will usually not be challenged by customs), it works out considerable cheaper than buying equipment locally. Neither Canon or Nikon in Norway is willing to honour a U.S. or any other foreign guarantee here in Norway. It doesn't matter if ut is "grey market" or "full U.S. guarantee". If the guarentee is from overseas, fixing it under guarantee must be done overseas. A friend of mine bought an expensive "full U.S. guarantee" Canon IS lens at a reputable dealer (B&H) while visting New York, and found after he came back here that the IS performed erratic. Canon Norway refused to touch it, and insisted he shipped it back to the U.S. for repair. B&H replaced it under guarantee, but my friend had to pay for the shipping, which made it more expensive in the end than if he had bought it from a Norwegian dealer. I don't know if there are camera manufacturers that honours gurantees across borders, but Canon (and Nikon) don't. Signature- gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ] ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Sigma SD10, Kodak DCS460, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z ------------------------------------------------------------------------ In message <Bvl7h.7$ki3.2@trndny01>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >> In message <OSj7h.1$Kw2.0@trndny05>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >>>"Robert Brace" <rlbrace@shaw.ca> wrote in message [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >market importers. You just might be told that your gray market camera will >not be supported in the UK! It appears that I can get service and support in the UK if I bought a Nikon camera in the USA. However Nikon Europe say that the free warranty repairs would have to be done in the US. The one year warranty is area based as regards repairs. All other service and support is not affected. Of course under EU rules all the countries in the EU are one country as regards warranty. So Nikon US is being less helpful than other Nikon areas. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > So Nikon US is being less helpful than other Nikon areas. That is PRECISELY the objective! To discourage potential buyers from going to the competition, by drawing a distinction between what they can get from the gray market importer, as opposed to the support the will receive from the official one. They have the legal right to set such policies, and they have elected to forego the handful of sales they would have made otherwise. Buyers are free to-- A: Buy official B: Buy Gray Market C: Buy another make of camera gear But they are not free to Buy Gray Market and then demand anything from the official importer. It is perfectly fair. It offers true choice. It balances the desire of gray market importers to not be muscled out of the marketplace by the official importer, and it protects the official importer from having to assume the financial burden to provide any kind of service or support to non-customers, in the official importers' sole discretion. Your criticism is better directed toward the blood-sucking gray market importers. Why does no one ask why THEY refuse to provide as high a level of support to their customers???? Where is it written that the gray market importer has virtually no responsibility to service their own customers, but that the official importer has the responsibility of serving the gray market customer? And where is it written that a gray market customer has any reason to become angry with the official importer--with whom he never did any business--because the official importer merely exercised their legal right to tell the non-customer to "take a hike?" It's a no-brainer. >> So Nikon US is being less helpful than other Nikon areas. > >That is PRECISELY the objective! To give less service than other parts of Nikon? > To discourage potential buyers from going >to the competition, by drawing a distinction between what they can get from >the gray market importer, as opposed to the support the will receive from >the official one. You have missed the point entirely. However the service from Nikon US is less than the level of service from other Nikon companies it appears. >They have the legal right to set such policies, But I would suggest they have lost the moral and ethical high ground and a lot of customer good will/ >Your criticism is better directed toward the blood-sucking gray market >importers. I agree. Why does Nikon US not go after them rather than penalise owners of Nikon Cameras? Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ >>Your criticism is better directed toward the blood-sucking gray market >>importers. > > I agree. Why does Nikon US not go after them rather than penalise owners > of Nikon Cameras? Because they can't. US law allows anyone to be a gray market importer. The gray market importer does not get the product from Nikon in Japan, he has to purchase it wherever in the world he can find a deal, and he brings it into the US without the blessing of Nikon or of its official US importer. The gray market importer is protected by law from being forced out by Nikon. Nikon USA cannot force the gray market importer out, but they can, and do, exercise their legal right to have no dealings with any equipment that the gray market importer brought into the US. You really don't understand how this works, do you? >>>Your criticism is better directed toward the blood-sucking gray market >>>importers. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > >You really don't understand how this works, do you? I do understand how it works. I also understand that Nikon Us gives a lesser service than other Nikon companies and hides behind the letter of the law to do it. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ >I do understand how it works. I also understand that Nikon Us gives a >lesser service than other Nikon companies and hides behind the letter of >the law to do it. I strongly doubt that the service offered by Nikon USA could be any worse than that offered by Nikon UK. > >I do understand how it works. I also understand that Nikon Us gives a > >lesser service than other Nikon companies and hides behind the letter of > >the law to do it. > > I strongly doubt that the service offered by Nikon USA could be any > worse than that offered by Nikon UK. Tony, I had a NIkon Cookpix 8700, which I sold yesterday on eBay. That aside...I currently own a Canon Digital Rebel XT. I NEVER had a problem with Canon service. The camera had an electrical problem when I first purchased it, a couple of years ago, year and a half or so. I sent it back to 'Canon, they repaired it, and cleaned it...and sent it back to me within 10 days. It's out of warrantee now, but I would be happy to send my camera back to Canon for service. They're fast, efficient, and have a good turnaround time. Guess I'm just hooked to Canon's. I gave Fuji (my first digicam), and Nikon a shot. They just weren't the same. Harry Flaxman Applications Engineer (retired) This is not as simple as posters are making it out to be. A few years ago a Nikon camera brought in France was treated as a gray market item in the U. K., since Nikon UK would not honor Nikon France products. This has changed because of the EU and its member nations needing to cooperate according to the terms of the EU trade agreements. Nikon USA is far better than the Nikon distributor in India. When the battery recall for the EN-EL3 battery, Nikon USA replaced the batteries as fast as they could get new stock, in India Nikon users were told to contact Nikon Japan because the importer did not want to absorb the cost. The Nikon distributors could be a wholly or partially owned subsidiary of Nikon or might an individual, partnership or corporation with no other relationship with Nikon other than a contract to import and distribute Nikon products within a given country and may or may not provide repair services. The repair services could be provided by Nikon or some other contractor. I believe India and Australia are covered by independent contractors to Nikon for importing and servicing Nikon products. > >>>Your criticism is better directed toward the blood-sucking gray market > >>>importers. [quoted text clipped - 24 lines] > /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > This is not as simple as posters are making it out to be. > > A few years ago a Nikon camera brought in France was treated as a gray > market item in the U. K., These are not gray market issues. You would need to find out how your country's official importer handles warranty, fee-for-service repairs and requests for parts for equipment that was purchased offshore, but from an official Nikon importer in that country. Gray market goods are goods that are imported into your country by an importer other than the official one. The gray market importer does not get the goods from the manufacturer (Nikon in Japan will sell only to its official importers). By the way, I have been noticing the same thing with FOOD, of all things. I routinely see Kellogg's cereals in American stores whose boxes are printed in Arabic. This represents a real health risk, because these products were never shipped to US distributors. They were brought back into this country by third parties, and there is no way to know under what conditions they were transported or stored while in their original ports of entry. They could have been sitting in a desert warehouse, for example, without proper temperature and humidity controls. So the end user saves $.50 on a box of cereal, and he feeds his kids what could be some real junk that a camel pissed on. Does the gray market importer care if he is jeopardizing peoples' health? We also have a major problem with "discount" medications, allegedly manufactured in US pharmaceutical plants, and destined for overseas patients. Pakistan is reputed to be shipping counterfeit drugs that are really placebos, with no medicinal value, and Americans are buying them thinking that they are saving money by getting around high US drug prices. These unauthorized imports can turn out to be more than just a rip-off, some products may endanger peoples' health. Whether the item comes from a retail store or is brought in by the end user and bypasses the importer for the country of residence and may bypass paying the local taxes. Nikon USA does not care how you brought your camera all they are concerned about is that they did not import it and it is treated the same way not matter how one purchased it. As for food, did you notice where the food was packaged? If it is imported, the USDA has responsibility over the quality of the imported food just like food produced in the USA. If you are concerned about the non-English labeled food, you do not have to purchase it. As for drugs, that is the responsibility of the FDA and if you are aware of counterfeit drugs you should report them to that agency. But if the end consumer circumvents these agencies, they have to take the responsibility for their actions. You probably do not remember Thalidomide, http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Thalydomide. Women went to Europe and Canada to purchase this drug because the FDA did not approve it's use within the USA. The U.S. citizens are still paying for any of their children born with skeletal defects. > > This is not as simple as posters are making it out to be. > > [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > These unauthorized imports can turn out to be more than just a rip-off, some > products may endanger peoples' health. > As for drugs, that is the responsibility of the FDA and if you are > aware of counterfeit drugs you should report them to that agency. On the other hand, if you give patients the exact same medication, once with the adverse efects in the local language and once with them in another language, you get drastically less complaints about adverse effects with the latter ... > But > if the end consumer circumvents these agencies, they have to take the > responsibility for their actions. You probably do not remember > Thalidomide, http://columbia.thefreedictionary.com/Thalydomide. Women > went to Europe and Canada to purchase this drug because the FDA did not > approve it's use within the USA. Basically due to a stroke of luck; the newest FDA reseacher (1 month on the job) was interested in fetal safety due to prior studies she did back in the 1940s on quinine, including during pregnancy ... and felt there was not really enough information, so she dragged out an 'open-and-shut' application process again and again ... and got quite some pressure from above. However, the drug _was_ distributed legally in the US, to the tune of 2.5 Mio tablets to 1200 American doctors and 20.000 patients. > The U.S. citizens are still paying for > any of their children born with skeletal defects. Thalidomide (one trade name was Contergan) is basically a case of not enough testing on animals, namely pregnant ones ... OTOH, you have to work _really_ hard to overdose yourself with Thalidomide, unlike most other sleeping pills. On May 26, 2006, the drug was actually approved by the FDA, though not as a sleeping drug for normal patients ... Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thalidomide -Wolfgang I have only recently re-entered the world of still photography. I was looking for a quality digital camera and purchased a USA Nikon D50 with the aid a friend, who is a professional photographer. At the time I had no idea that there are two kinds of Nikon cameras in the USA (Gray Market Nikons and USA Nikons). I am retired and plan to travel. I assumed wrongly that I would be able to get service on my new Nikon any where in the world from a Nikon repair center. I spend a lot of time and energy trying to take quality pictures. The thought of having to worry about, if I buy used Nikon equipment or if I do not have my original bill of sale and warranty paperwork for new Nikon equipment, that I will not be able to get it repaired by Nikon, turns my stomach. I wish Nikon well in its WAR with itself, but I am planning the switch to Canon. -cb- > that I will not be able to get it repaired by Nikon, turns my stomach. > I wish Nikon well in its WAR with itself, but I am planning the switch > to Canon. -cb- Canon does the same thing. At least BHphoto.com let's you know which are gray market upfront, but some retailers may not. Most of your local smaller retailers will not carry gray market. > I have only recently re-entered the world of still photography. I was > looking for a quality digital camera and purchased a USA Nikon D50 with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I wish Nikon well in its WAR with itself, but I am planning the switch > to Canon. -cb- Hi. I think that if you have your receipt with you (proving that you bought the camera in the country where it was supposed to be sold) then a service centre will indeed service it anywhere. Did you ask them? The official vs grey market problem has been around at least twenty years or more. >I have only recently re-entered the world of still photography. I was > looking for a quality digital camera and purchased a USA Nikon D50 with [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I wish Nikon well in its WAR with itself, but I am planning the switch > to Canon. -cb- So what's so new about gray market? If you want full protection, just buy you equipment from the official importer and register the equipment for warranty protection with the enclosed Warranty Card. If you buy used, be sure to check with the US official importer as to the status of the equipment for repair. They'll probably be able to look up the serial number to see if they'll be able to fix it. The mere fact that a particular brand name is badged onto the equipment does not, of itself, guarantee post-sale support. Cameras are sold all around the world. You just need to look before you leap. >If you want full protection, just buy you equipment from the official >importer and register the equipment for warranty protection with the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] >not, of itself, guarantee post-sale support. Cameras are sold all around >the world. If you buy something off eBay, unless the item is only a few years old, the seller doesn't generally state if the camera or lens is USA or not. So how can you find out in advance? Also, if you're buying an older manual focus lens, does Nikon really care? It's not like you could buy that lens new anywhere, USA or not USA? Say a lens that was sold in 1990 or even 1980? Or how about a late 60's era 8 mm f8 fisheye lens? Father Kodak >> So Nikon US is being less helpful than other Nikon areas. > >That is PRECISELY the objective! To discourage potential buyers from going >to the competition, by drawing a distinction between what they can get from >the gray market importer, as opposed to the support the will receive from >the official one. I don't think too highly of Nikon if they won't service ALL their cameras equally. It's bad enough the local certified-repair store won't give you good support unless you have bought the item there. This happened to me when I brought in a Toro lawn mower for repair under warranty--estimated time of repair was 3 months so they can service their "real" customers. Not only this made me feel less of Toro, but I won't shop at that hardware store anymore. > In message <OSj7h.1$Kw2.0@trndny05>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >>YOU, on the other hand, raise the typical argument of misonformed >>whiners--that Company "A" ought to pick up the tab for providing support >>that rightfully is the responsibility of Company "B." > > No... With a world class company What in the Hell is "a world class company"? There is no recognized standard for that--the local supermarket claims to be "world class". It seems to me that that's just marketdroid for "trust me". > if I buy one of their products that is > highly portable I expect to get service from that company no matter > where I go. Or are you suggesting that some how Nikon USA is not part > of Nikon globally? They are and they aren't. First, there is no "Nikon USA", the name of the company is "Nikon, Inc." and they are based in New Jersey, but they are also a wholly owned subsidiary of Nikon Corporation. They take their marching orders from Nikon in Japan but their day to day operations are managed from New Jersey IIRC. If you buy in the US you bought from Nikon, Inc or from a gray marketer, not a subsidiary of Nikon, which imported it. > So Nikon is not a world class company..... or is it just Nikon USA? It > appears Nikon USA is not doing the Nikon brand any favours. If you don't like it why don't you take it up with Tokyo instead of whining here where the few people who give a damn can't do anything about it except join you in shouting defiance at the sky? SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt >>>> That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying a >>>> new camera. [quoted text clipped - 164 lines] > multiplicity of the new lens value. I make the total so far in excess of > $30,000.00CDN. But that was their choice wasn't it. Fascinating--you're accusing a Japanese company of having a "Fortress America approach to international business". Or has it escaped your notice that "Nikon USA" is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nikon? SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt >>>>> That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying >>>>> a [quoted text clipped - 192 lines] > America approach to international business". Or has it escaped your > notice that "Nikon USA" is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Nikon? J.Clarke Save your fascination and your sarcastic blather for someone who cares. The "wholly-owned subsidiary" as you choose to call Nikon USA (and presumably Nikon Canada, by extension) are also wholly responsible for their in-country Customer Relationship policies and deserve to bear the brunt of any criticism generated because of them. The fact that you would expect the Japanese parent to provide any meaningful course corrections to the NA based operations in how to handle their customers shows you neither have any intimate knowledge of their business practices nor recognize it as a problem. Not surprising. Bob >>>>>> That would tip the balance for me if/when I get to the point of buying >>>>>> a [quoted text clipped - 196 lines] > Save your fascination and your sarcastic blather for someone who cares. > The "wholly-owned subsidiary" as you choose to call Nikon USA I don't choose to call it that, the CEO of Nikon, Inc chooses to call it that <http://www.mitsubishi.or.jp/e/monitor/0212/insight.html>. > (and > presumably Nikon Canada, by extension) are also wholly responsible for > their in-country Customer Relationship policies and deserve to bear the > brunt of any criticism generated because of them. What part of "owned" do you not understand? > The fact that you > would expect the Japanese parent to provide any meaningful course > corrections to the NA based operations in how to handle their customers > shows you neither have any intimate knowledge of their business > practices nor recognize it as a problem. Huh? If it's a problem that is hurting sales in one of their largest markets then why would they _not_ "provide meaningful course corrections"? As to your assertion that I have no intimate knowledge of their busines practices, I have never claimed to have such knowledge. Do _you_ have such knowledge? > asNot surprising. Bob SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt > Huh? If it's a problem that is hurting sales in one of their largest > markets then why would they _not_ "provide meaningful course corrections"? If you are concerned about Nikon's revenue in the US, why not just buy officially-imported goods from them? I think your real objective is to try to get something for nothing. If the official Nikon importer has to give you free service, that can't be good for revenues. Why not just call the gray market importer, and ask why THEY won't/can't properly serve you, instead of directing your criticism toward Nikon ?? >> Huh? If it's a problem that is hurting sales in one of their largest >> markets then why would they _not_ "provide meaningful course corrections"? [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Why not just call the gray market importer, and ask why THEY won't/can't > properly serve you, instead of directing your criticism toward Nikon ?? Huh? How did you get from a comment about the likelihood of Nikon Corporation in Tokyo doing something about the activitives of Nikon Inc in New Jersey if those activities were damaging Nikon's sales to my wanting something for nothing? In fact how is what I personally want of any relevance at all to the discussion? SignatureX:\Newsreaders\sig.txt |
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