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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / November 2006Nikon D200 Import or USA???? What's the difference
I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, straps, chargers, anything else. and piece together the battery and charger etc off the net than buy a US model. Other than the warranty is their any other differences, build wise? or anything else that I need to watch for? It's not like it's a Fake camera, it still has all the great Nikon build correct? Thanks Brian If you live in the U.S.A. and do not buy a U.S.A. Nikon you will not get warranty service from Nikon U.S.A. You will have to send the camera to Nikon Japan or pay a premium for service. In the days of film cameras, many models purchased overseas could not be serviced in the U.S.A. because of the different unit systems used for parts ( metric vs. imperial). Any time a camera or other goods is obtained from country other than the owners country of residence and then brought into the country of residence it is known as a gray market item. Be careful when the complete body and standard accessories are not included with the camera body. You may have to pay a premium for these standard items and may not get genuine Nikon parts to get the "bargain" price for you camera. In the end you will pay more for your complete body and have less of product than had you purchased the US. model. > I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian > import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Brian > If you live in the U.S.A. and do not buy a U.S.A. Nikon you will not > get warranty service from Nikon U.S.A. You will have to send the camera > to Nikon Japan or pay a premium for service. In the days of film > cameras, many models purchased overseas could not be serviced in the > U.S.A. because of the different unit systems used for parts ( metric > vs. imperial). Yes those damned Japanese are trick at doing that. > Any time a camera or other goods is obtained from > country other than the owners country of residence and then brought [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >> >> Brian >> If you live in the U.S.A. and do not buy a U.S.A. Nikon you will not >> get warranty service from Nikon U.S.A. You will have to send the camera [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > > Yes those damned Japanese are trick at doing that. Don't know about the Japanese, but I had a full set of Metric wrenches and a full set of English wrenches and there were bolts on my first Volvo (made in Canada) that none of them would fit. >> Any time a camera or other goods is obtained from >> country other than the owners country of residence and then brought [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] >>> >>> Brian >>> If you live in the U.S.A. and do not buy a U.S.A. Nikon you will not >>> get warranty service from Nikon U.S.A. You will have to send the camera [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> >> Yes those damned Japanese are trick at doing that. See Nikon USA web site for their position on gray market imports. They offer no support to goods that they did not import. That is perfectly okay, per US Supreme Court Decision on "Parallel Imports." Essentially, if the US importer did not sell you the goods, they owe you nothing in the way of repair, parts or warranty support. In Nikon USA's case, they typically refuse to provide repairs even if the owner of the gray market goods offers to pay for them. Be very careful with Nikon gray market goods, as you will have to look to the gray market importer for any necessary support or repairs. Also, Nikon in Japan does not provide International Warranties on everything it makes--meaning that you may not be able to get free warranty repairs even if you ship the goods back to Japan. Bottom line=if you are buying an item that is likely to require support, parts or repairs, you run the risk of being unable to secure support from Nikon USA. Chances are, you will not even know who the gray market importer was, and even if you can track them down there is no assurance that they can provide you with parts or repairs, as they probably have no connection with Nikon in Japan. Gray market Nikon goods are only as good as the importer, and I know of no importer that is able to provide the high level of support that you can get if you buy through official USA channels. Finally, check for official rebates from Nikon USA, as you just might be lucky and find that buying through the official importer is not that much more than going the gray market route. As I understand it, the list price is often set artificially high to compensate for currency fluctuations. That way, the prices of the cameras don't have to be adjusted upward or downward every couple of weeks, as international currency rates change. When the rate of exchange is favorable, the importer just offers a "rebate." My personal take on this is that it is easier to just go with the officially-imported product, rather than gamble on future support by saving a buck or two on the initial price. Clearly, if you are a professional, and require support from the importer, you really can't take a chance buying gray market unless the item is relatively unimportant, like a lens that you will seldom need. My own experiences have taught me that, whenever I tried to cut a corner to save a buck, I've often ended up paying more than I would have if I had simply gone with the full-priced item. Everyone must make their own decision on this question. Only you can know what is right for your own situation. >See Nikon USA web site for their position on gray market imports. > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >refuse to provide repairs even if the owner of the gray market goods offers >to pay for them. That is ridiculous... people move around the world. People go on holiday etc so they should offer to do the work if you pay. If you are legitimate you can sort it out with Nikon in your own country However I can understand their view when distributors start doing grey imports but then it is the distributors they should go after not let the end users suffer. >Be very careful with Nikon gray market goods Rather be careful with ANY grey market goods. >Gray market Nikon goods are only as good as the importer, and I know of no >importer that is able to provide the high level of support that you can get >if you buy through official USA channels. You have to ask yourself why the importer is doing grey imports. >Finally, check for official rebates from Nikon USA, as you just might be >lucky and find that buying through the official importer is not that much >more than going the gray market route. As I understand it, the list price >is often set artificially high to compensate for currency fluctuations. Good advice... the US dollar is not the stable world wide currency it once was. >My personal take on this is that it is easier to just go with the >officially-imported product, rather than gamble on future support by saving >a buck or two on the initial price. Very true. You may save a few dollars and have no trouble. On the other hand you may not see your money [or camera] again. What if the camera they ship is not what you thought it was? >Clearly, if you are a professional, and Then there is no choice. >My own experiences have taught me that, whenever I tried to cut a corner to >save a buck, I've often ended up paying more than I would have if I had >simply gone with the full-priced item. I know what you mean. Though some things I buy from discount suppliers and others full price from main dealers. But always in my own country. Buying from abroad via the internet just to save a bit more usually is not worth it.  Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > In message <yTG6h.3109$xD.16@trndny08>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >>My own experiences have taught me that, whenever I tried to cut a corner [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Buying from abroad via the internet just to save a bit more usually is not > worth it. I don't know if my experiences count for the "usually" you mention, but when I go on a business trip to the US, any lens (or camera, for that matter) bought there will be about 30% cheaper than in any store here - yes, I'm talking about new, gray stuff. I'm making frequent use of such possibilities. Even including taxes when importing it still makes it a very good deal. <knocking on wood> So far I've had only one warranty issue, and Nikon CH handled that just nicely. Cheers, ink > I don't know if my experiences count for the "usually" you mention, but > when I go on a business trip to the US, any lens (or camera, for that [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > very good deal. <knocking on wood> So far I've had only one warranty > issue, and Nikon CH handled that just nicely. I don't know how other countries handle these situations. My comments were based on US law and apply only to US situations. In your case, you seem to have been fortunate in that your importer serviced equipment that cost you less by buying it here. >> In message <yTG6h.3109$xD.16@trndny08>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >>>My own experiences have taught me that, whenever I tried to cut a corner [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] >I don't know if my experiences count for the "usually" you mention, but when >I go on a business trip to the US, In this case you are personally buying from a shop etc. So you see the goods and the store before you buy. You can see that they are a legitimate business. Any one can generate a web site these days. I to buy when I am abroad too. However just as in the UK it is from real businesses and I get to see the goods before I buy. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > In message <yTG6h.3109$xD.16@trndny08>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > etc so they should offer to do the work if you pay. If you are legitimate > you can sort it out with Nikon in your own country Under US law, as handed down by a Supreme Court ruling, no importer is REQUIRED BY LAW to provide any support to customers that acquired the product through an unofficial channel. The official importer MAY elect to serve those folks (Canon USA does), but the law does not impose a legal requirement upon them. Nikon exercises its legal rights when they decline to support customers of other (gray market) importers. The solution, under US law, is that if you want Nikon USA support, just buy goods that they imported. If you buy gray market, you must look to the gray market importer for all support. Nikon owes you nothing--not even the obligation to accept your goods for paid repair, if they came from some other importer. That is the settled law of the land in the US. > However I can understand their view when distributors start doing grey > imports but then it is the distributors they should go after not let the > end users suffer. The end users are not deemed to have "suffered," because they elected to bypass Nikon USA and go elsewhere to get a cheaper price. They would have had every right to receive Nikon USA service had they bought officially-imported goods. Under our laws, they are not deemed to have suffered if Nikon USA exercises their legal right to decline to support gray market goods--and the means that they can even decline to repair them if the owner offers to pay for them. >>Be very careful with Nikon gray market goods > > Rather be careful with ANY grey market goods. Not necessarily. Canon, for example supports gray market goods, so the risk is not as great when buying gray market Canon. But with NIKON, you must be willing to accept the fact that the price you pay for the discount is that Nikon USA will not give you the time-of-day if the equipment breaks, or if you need parts or firmware upgrades. >>Gray market Nikon goods are only as good as the importer, and I know of no >>importer that is able to provide the high level of support that you can >>get >>if you buy through official USA channels. > > You have to ask yourself why the importer is doing grey imports. ???? Nikon USA is NOT a gray market importer. I think you may be misinformed. Gray market importers have no connection with Nikon USA, and Nikon USA gets not a cent of revenue when someone buys a gray market product. Nikon USA maintains technical repair shops, stocks parts, attends trade shows, pays for advertising, and covers the cost of all warranty repairs. They add a premium to the price of their goods to cover those expenses. So, the customers that bought the officially-imported products pay for all after-sale support, as a part of their purchase price. Now YOU come along, with a defective camera where you did NOT pay your share of Nikon USA's expenses for sfter-sale support, and you insist that YOU GET A FREE RIDE? Nikon USA is legally entitled to tell you to hit the road. A Supreme Court ruling gave them that right. How about the Nikon USA customers, that paid a higher price to obtain full support? What incentive is there for THEM to go with Nikon USA, if anyone can get the same level of support regardless of whether they paid the premium price or not? It is somewhat analagous to a fully-insured hospital patient sharing a room with a welfare patient--and seeing that person receiving the same doctors, same food, same care. In any event, I don't want to debate the issue--the US Supreme Court ruled on it, and that is the way we do it in the USA. They struck a balance between price and support. If you really want the lower price, you may legally purchase gray market goods in the US--but you forego any right to demand anything from the official importer. You must obtain after-sale support from whoever you bought from (if they offer any kind of support at all). You have freedom of choice, but you have to live with the consequences of that choice. Other countries may have different laws--my comments are based on US law. You can Google for "parallel imports" to see tons of articles that offer the arguments for and against gray market. In our case, the Supreme Court was asked to ban all gray market goods. They chose instead to rule that they would not be banned outright, but that their legalization would not result in a burden being imposed upon official importers, who would have been expected to pick up the tab for service and support when they did not participate in the profits from the original sales of the goods. I have always thought that this was an excellent solution, one that retained choice. BUT, it imposed a requirement upon buyers--that they become informed about what they were getting (and what they were not getting) before they handed over their money. This ruling is almost 20 years old now, and we have not had any problems because of it. We just get the occasional gripes from people that do not understand that they can't buy through one importer, and then demand anything from another importer. But life is full of these types of learning experiences. >> In message <yTG6h.3109$xD.16@trndny08>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes >Under US law, as handed down by a Supreme Court ruling, no importer is [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >obligation to accept your goods for paid repair, if they came from some >other importer. That is the settled law of the land in the US. As you point out Canon do not do this. >>>Be very careful with Nikon gray market goods >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >Nikon USA will not give you the time-of-day if the equipment breaks, or if >you need parts or firmware upgrades. So Nikon US is not some one I would want to do business with. Canon seem far more pragmatic. >>>Gray market Nikon goods are only as good as the importer, and I know of no >>>importer that is able to provide the high level of support that you can [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >???? Nikon USA is NOT a gray market importer. I think you may be >misinformed. No I was not misinformed.. You misunderstand. I was saying you have to ask your self why the [grey] importer is doing grey imports. Clearly Nikon US can not be doing grey imports to the US by definition. The point is no Official Importer is going to handle grey imports. Neither we hope is any Official distributor . However it is possible that some customers may not realise they are dealing with grey imports. >In any event, I don't want to debate the issue But you did go on a bit at a tangent having misunderstood the point.... >--the US Supreme Court ruled >on it, Good for them! > and that is the way we do it in the USA. Doesn't mean it is right though, >between price and support. If you really want the lower price, you may >legally purchase gray market goods in the US--but you forego any right to >demand anything from the official importer. You must obtain after-sale >support from whoever you bought from (if they offer any kind of support at >all). You have freedom of choice, but you have to live with the >consequences of that choice. That is reasonable. However what happens in the VERY unlikely event that I move to the USA. my Nikons were bought from an Official UK distributor. Do I have to go 3000 miles back to the UK for support. (Or just go to Canada? However I think your long winded rant may have illuminated the point for those who are silly enough to send money to the other side of the world to save a few bucks. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ Yes, you will have to send the camera etc to the U. K. unless you find a sympathetic service center. And that has been the experience of U.S. citizens moving to Japan with their U. S. equipment. > >> In message <yTG6h.3109$xD.16@trndny08>, jeremy <jeremy@nospam.com> writes > >Under US law, as handed down by a Supreme Court ruling, no importer is [quoted text clipped - 77 lines] > /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ The retail store is not the importer/distributor. Some of the gray market items are obtained by the retail dealer to avoid some taxes, distributor fees etc. Of coursem, when you buy these products overseas you report them on entry to your country of resedence and pay any import duty and pay your loca use tax as required. Some retailers will even arrange to "ship" the product to a location with little or no local tax., By "ship" I mean write the invoice with a wrong address on it to avoid the local taxes, but hand the product to the customer, But many taxmen are knocking on the consumers' doors to collect taxes. Many localities have a use tax which applies to any product purchased outside the purchasers legal residence and then brought into that locality and the purchaser is required to pay the local tax. A CEO of a large international corporation was prosecuted for doing this by the New York Attorney General. The result was the convicted CEO paid the additional taxes, penalties, interest, and lost his job.. > >See Nikon USA web site for their position on gray market imports. > > [quoted text clipped - 57 lines] > /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ > \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > The retail store is not the importer/distributor. Some of the gray > market items are obtained by the retail dealer to avoid some taxes, > distributor fees etc. We are not focusing on end users that go to another country and buy their goods for personal importation to their country of residence. That is not the definition of gray market, and usually the local importers will honor the warranties of other local (official) importers. If you buy a Nikon camera in the US that Nikon USA imported, and then bring the camera home to Britain, I doubt that you'd have a problem obtaining warranty service from your country's official importer. Gray market goods are "Parallel Imports." In other words, they are purchased in from unofficial importers areas with their own official importers. In the US, Nikon USA is the OFFICIAL importer. If you go to a camera store that offers gray market goods, they will have been imported by a company OTHER then Nikon USA, and they will not have a Nikon USA warranty card. Nikon USA can tell from the serial number if they imported the goods, and if not, they will decline your request for parts, service, warranty repairs or out-of-warranty repairs. That is their legal right. Please remember that Nikon is a major brand, and if Nikon USA gave a free ride to everyone, there would be little incentive for anyone to pay the premium price, when they could just buy gray market and save 25%. Nikon USA could even be forced out of business. How can they pick up the tab for support for some other company's imports? This topic comes up here periodically, and lots of people think it is unfair that they can't demand support for goods that Nikon USA never sold. But there is a much broader principle involved. These gray market companies are leeches, that would be happy to make profits from sale of goods, while leaving Nikon USA with the responsibility of maintaining the infrastructure necessary to provide after-sale support. But in the USA we don't do things that way. It would be unfair and illegal to impose such a burden for support upon an entity that had nothing to do with bringing the goods into the local market. >> The retail store is not the importer/distributor. Some of the gray >> market items are obtained by the retail dealer to avoid some taxes, [quoted text clipped - 32 lines] > support upon an entity that had nothing to do with bringing the goods into > the local market. Leaving aside the ethics of gray market importers for a moment, the official importers of Nikon gear, even though they are an American company, are selling equipment made in another country, in this case Japan, and one would think that they would have some regard for the parent company's goods enough to service faulty ones, albeit at a charge to the owner. The Supreme Court decision may give legal weight to refuse service to gear Nikon USA didn't sell, but the ethical position isn't too good, IMHO. Basically, they are holding a gun to the heads of potential buyers by refusing service outright if the gear wasn't sold by them, even though Nikon USA are the official representatives of the parent company in Japan, and have the training and resources to carry out repairs to any and all Nikon gear. This stance is getting close to restrictive trade practice, a situation frowned on by many. Canon appear to heed this, and offer service to all Canon gear, of course at a price that covers the service, a much better ethical position, IMO. Colin D. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com >>> The retail store is not the importer/distributor. Some of the gray >>> market items are obtained by the retail dealer to avoid some taxes, [quoted text clipped - 40 lines] > company's goods enough to service faulty ones, albeit at a charge to the > owner. I am sure that if Nikon Japan _wanted_ them to do this then that would be done. > The Supreme Court decision may give legal weight to refuse service to gear > Nikon USA didn't sell, but the ethical position isn't too good, IMHO. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Nikon gear. This stance is getting close to restrictive trade practice, a > situation frowned on by many. Nikon is a Japanese company. If it is frowned on by "many" in Japan, _then_ it will get changed. But don't assume that Japanese values are the same as American values. In any case, deciding how the products that your own company produces are to be sold and supported is not a "restrictive trade practice" unless there is a degree of vertical integration such that competitors can be closed out of the market. It is only when competitors collude that such actions become "restrictive trade practices". > Canon appear to heed this, and offer service to all Canon gear, of course > at a price that covers the service, a much better ethical position, IMO. I'm sure that their decision has far more to do with marketing than with ethics. >> Leaving aside the ethics of gray market importers for a moment, the >> official importers of Nikon gear, even though they are an American [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > I am sure that if Nikon Japan _wanted_ them to do this then that would be > done. There is nothing unethical about Nikon USA refusing to bear the expenses associated with supporting some other importer's products. In fact, I would argue that it would be unfair to Nikon USA's customers to make them pay more for their officially-imported products, to offset the cost of serving the gray market buyers. The gray market buyer must look to the gray market importer for support. The gray market buyer went into the deal with eyes wide-open, and knew that the goods were coming in through unofficial channels. It is not like he didn't understand. Nikon USA still loses out, because the gray market importers did NOTHING to advance the brand. They didn't spend one penny to advertise the goods, or to build up a dealer network. They didn't develop software in English. They didn't attend trade shows. They didn't supply press releases, or submit products to magazines and web sites for testing and evaluation. All that stuff requires money and personnel, and Nikon would not have a fraction of its market share had the official importer not done all the grunt work for decades. Then, along comes the gray market importer, and they sweep up a percentage of customers that would ordinarily have bought officially-imported products, simply by offering a lower price. Well, there is a "price" for that "lower price"--the customer gets less in the way of parts, service and repairs. That is the tradeoff. It is inappropriate to mischaracterize such customers as having been victimized. They made their choice. Nobody owes them anything but the importer whose goods they purchased. >> The Supreme Court decision may give legal weight to refuse service to >> gear Nikon USA didn't sell, but the ethical position isn't too good, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >> and all Nikon gear. This stance is getting close to restrictive trade >> practice, a situation frowned on by many. Bandying the term "restrictive trade practice" about may sound good, but it is not the case at all. The Court ruling now has the effect of being the settled law of the land, and there is nothing restrictive about it. No company is obligated to warrant ANYTHING if they do not want to do so. And, if they DO warrant any goods, they have the legal right to warrant only their own goods, not those imported by others. Nikon USA has no legal obligation to honor warranties or support customers that buy their equipment through other channels--the fact that the goods all may have come from the same assembly line notwithstanding. Ricoh used to make 35mm cameras under the Sears and JC Penney brand name. If a customer bought a Sears camera, he had no right to send it in to Ricoh's US service centers if he required warranty repairs. The principle is the same as for gray market. >>> Leaving aside the ethics of gray market importers for a moment, the >>> official importers of Nikon gear, even though they are an American [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] >There is nothing unethical about Nikon USA refusing to bear the expenses >associated with supporting some other importer's products. Yes there is. >The gray market buyer must look to the gray market importer for support. I agree. >The gray market buyer went into the deal with eyes wide-open, and knew that >the goods were coming in through unofficial channels. It is not like he >didn't understand. Not always. You may not always know that the shop you have bought the goods from is using grey imports. >Nikon USA still loses out, because the gray market importers did NOTHING to >advance the brand. Quite true but the attitude of Nikon US can diminish the brand. If I move to the US with my Nikons, legitimately bought from Official Dealers in the UK whilst I was resident in the UK, and they need support I would expect Nikon US to support my legitimately bought equipment. I would not expect to have to go back to the UK for support. In not supporting me it harms the reputation of Nikon. The least they could do is assist and charge me the correct amount that I could claim back from my UK supplier. It appears Nikon is not a world class company. >They made their choice. Nobody owes them anything but the importer whose >goods they purchased. This is true where a US resident buys grey imports in the UK If they knew it was a grey import it is on thing but they may not have known. I have had to give support for grey imports. It is good for my company and good for the brand. The Brand owner sorted out the grey importer :-) I am not talking about inexpensive things like cameras either. >Bandying the term "restrictive trade practice" about may sound good, but it >is not the case at all. The Court ruling now has the effect of being the >settled law of the land, But only the small part of the world that is the USA... Nikon is a world wide company. >Nikon USA has no legal obligation to honor warranties or support customers >that buy their equipment through other channels--the fact that the goods all >may have come from the same assembly line notwithstanding. No legal obligation but a moral one in many aspects. >Ricoh used to make 35mm cameras under the Sears and JC Penney brand name. >If a customer bought a Sears camera, he had no right to send it in to >Ricoh's US service centers if he required warranty repairs. The principle >is the same as for gray market. No the principal is not the same. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ > >There is nothing unethical about Nikon USA refusing to bear the expenses > >associated with supporting some other importer's products. > > Yes there is. it is not unethical. it may be annoying and inconvenient, but it is not unethical. > >The gray market buyer went into the deal with eyes wide-open, and knew that > >the goods were coming in through unofficial channels. It is not like he > >didn't understand. > > Not always. You may not always know that the shop you have bought the > goods from is using grey imports. ask the seller prior to purchase and/or check the box for warranty information. call nikon to verify a serial number if in doubt or if it is a used item and lacks documentation. > >Nikon USA still loses out, because the gray market importers did NOTHING to > >advance the brand. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > expect Nikon US to support my legitimately bought equipment. I would > not expect to have to go back to the UK for support. and nikon will support your equipment in that situation. if someone buys a nikon product which was legitimately imported to the country in which it was purchased and has a receipt to prove it, nikon will warrant it worldwide. the problem is if someone *circumvents* nikon's importing channels, and, for example, buys a non-usa camera from a usa dealer. >>There is nothing unethical about Nikon USA refusing to bear the expenses >>associated with supporting some other importer's products. > > Yes there is. Not under US law there isn't. >>The gray market buyer must look to the gray market importer for support. > > I agree. Then why do you insist that it is unethical when the official importer won't serve the gray market buyer? >You may not always know that the shop you have bought the goods from is >using grey imports. See Nikon's US web site. They explain how to tell if it is genuine or not. If the retailer pulls a fast one, that is between the buyer and the store--one cannot blame Nikon USA. > The attitude of Nikon US can diminish the brand. Perhaps, but the choice is Nikon's to make. You cannot impose your views upon them. > If I move to the US with my Nikons, legitimately bought from Official > Dealers in the UK whilst I was resident in the UK, and they need support I > would expect Nikon US to support my legitimately bought equipment. I > would not expect to have to go back to the UK for support. You would not be denied support if you bought from the official UK importer. > It appears Nikon is not a world class company. We are free in America, to award or withhold our business as we see fit. But we are not free to demand that companies assume burdens that are not legally imposed upon them by the law. Nikon is not obligated to support customers of other importers, and that's the law. > This is true where a US resident buys grey imports in the UK If they knew > it was a grey import it is on thing but they may not have known. This has been well-known for nearly 20 years. The consumer is responsible to decide whether the goods are what they require. Ignorance is no excuse. > I have had to give support for grey imports. It is good for my company and > good for the brand. The Brand owner sorted out the grey importer You are free to choose. But US law may be different from UK. > But only the small part of the world that is the USA... Nikon is a world > wide company. I comment only upon USA. And our laws cover all imported products, not just Nikon. I don't ask that you agree with our Supreme Court decisions, only that you respect our country's right to control its own domestic affairs. Back in the late 18th century, King George III's ambassadors executed a treaty with my country, promising that they'd butt out of our internal operations. > No legal obligation but a moral one in many aspects. That is where we differ. Morals are not universally agreed upon. Laws are meant to be binding upon all. Since you do not reside in the US, this entire thing should not be an issue for you. >>>There is nothing unethical about Nikon USA refusing to bear the expenses >>>associated with supporting some other importer's products. >> >> Yes there is. > >Not under US law there isn't. You are confusing law and ethics. Just because it is Law does not mean it is ethical >> The attitude of Nikon US can diminish the brand. > >Perhaps, but the choice is Nikon's to make. You cannot impose your views >upon them. Nikon USA is not Nikon >> If I move to the US with my Nikons, legitimately bought from Official >> Dealers in the UK whilst I was resident in the UK, and they need support I >> would expect Nikon US to support my legitimately bought equipment. I >> would not expect to have to go back to the UK for support. >You would not be denied support if you bought from the official UK importer. Fair enough. There was some suggestion somewhere in this thread that this would not be the case. >> It appears Nikon is not a world class company. > >We are free in America, to award or withhold our business as we see fit. >But we are not free to demand that companies assume burdens that are not >legally imposed upon them by the law. Nikon is not obligated to support >customers of other importers, and that's the law. You seem to be confusing the subsidiary Nikon US with Nikon The equipment is still Nikon equipment If a person deliberately buys outside their country of residence Ie as the OP was suggesting from an unknown Internet source the other side of the world then it is the responsibility of the buyer. What happens if you go into a camera shop in a town near you and they sell you a camera that you later discover is a grey import? >> This is true where a US resident buys grey imports in the UK If they knew >> it was a grey import it is on thing but they may not have known. > >This has been well-known for nearly 20 years. No it hasn't > The consumer is responsible >to decide whether the goods are what they require. Ignorance is no excuse. True. >> I have had to give support for grey imports. It is good for my company and >> good for the brand. The Brand owner sorted out the grey importer >You are free to choose. But US law may be different from UK. No idea about the law: it was a business decision . Also the brand owner wanted to uphold their good name. Besides most world class companies have methods for smoothing out support issues like this. If it is such a problem in the US I can only think that Nikon USA must be charging retail prices a lot higher than other parts of the world >> But only the small part of the world that is the USA... Nikon is a world >> wide company. > >I comment only upon USA. And our laws cover all imported products, not just >Nikon. I don't ask that you agree with our Supreme Court decisions, only >that you respect our country's right to control its own domestic affairs. A pity the US does not afford that right to other countries. >> No legal obligation but a moral one in many aspects. >That is where we differ. Morals are not universally agreed upon. Laws are >meant to be binding upon all. Since you do not reside in the US, this >entire thing should not be an issue for you. I can still comment on it. After all the discussion is about a world wide company in an international NG. I was interested in how Nikon US handle grey imports. Also service implication if I moved to the US. (I have a Nikon) It is also interesting to note that for all your bluster about it being The Law Canon does not do it that way. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ [ . . . ] > Don't know about the Japanese, but I had a full set of Metric wrenches and > a full set of English wrenches and there were bolts on my first Volvo > (made in Canada) that none of them would fit. When you say "English wrenches" do you mean in Whitworth sizes? I presume a Canadian-made car might have bolts in SAE sizes, which are not the same as Whitworth even though both are in inch fractions. Neil > [ . . . ] >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > a Canadian-made car might have bolts in SAE sizes, which are not the same > as Whitworth even though both are in inch fractions. Now where in the US would one obtain wrenches in Whitworth sizes for less than the price of replacing a crasher Volvo with a crasher Ford or Chevy? If I had had access to such I would certainly have obtained a set. >> [ . . . ] >>> [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > Now where in the US would one obtain wrenches in Whitworth sizes for less > than the price of replacing a crasher Volvo with a crasher Ford or Chevy? Beats me, but when you say "English wrenches" it sounds very likely that Whitworth is what you're talking about. >>> [ . . . ] >>>> [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > Beats me, but when you say "English wrenches" it sounds very likely that > Whitworth is what you're talking about. I am talking about something of a like or similar nature to http://www.sears.com/sr/javasr/product.do?cat=Mechanics+Tools&pid=00947242000&ve rtical=TOOL&subcat=Wrenches&BV_UseBVCookie=Yes In the US it is customary for people of my generation to refer to the system of measurement that includes inches as the "English system". If I had meant "Whitworth" I would have said "Whitworth". This business of referring to fastener sizes as "SAE" is something relatively new--the only time most mechanics mentioned the Society of Automotive Engineers was in discussing oil viscosity. >>>> [ . . . ] >>>>> [quoted text clipped - 23 lines] > relatively new--the only time most mechanics mentioned the Society of > Automotive Engineers was in discussing oil viscosity. Well, I'm 77, I'm in the U.S. too, and this is the first time I've ever seen SAE-size wrenches called "English wrenches." The same goes for nuts and bolts. Perhaps calling SAE sizes by their proper name is "relatively new" in your part of the country, but in general it's been common usage for several decades -- at least since we started getting all these imports with metric-sized parts, when it became necessary to make the distinction. Samstag Sales http://www.samstagsales.com/whitworth.htm#wrench > > [ . . . ] > >> [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > than the price of replacing a crasher Volvo with a crasher Ford or Chevy? > If I had had access to such I would certainly have obtained a set. > Samstag Sales > > http://www.samstagsales.com/whitworth.htm#wrench Now where were they in 1972? >> > [ . . . ] >> >> [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] >> than the price of replacing a crasher Volvo with a crasher Ford or Chevy? >> If I had had access to such I would certainly have obtained a set. > If you live in the U.S.A. and do not buy a U.S.A. Nikon you will not > get warranty service from Nikon U.S.A. You WILL get it from Canon, though. People have figured this out...which is why B&H sell so many "legitimate" grey market lenses at close to the same price as Canon USA lenses. SignatureImages (Plus Snaps & Grabs) by Mark² at: www.pbase.com/markuson >I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian > import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's not like it's a Fake camera, it still has all the great Nikon > build correct? Go to < http://www.resellerratings.com > and search on the vendor name. If they're listed you'll very likely find some excellent reasons to not do business with them, if they're not listed then run very fast. Odds are that you're going to be separated from that $510 and a good deal more and never see a camera. If you _do_ end up seeing a camera for that price it will likely have been dropped, dunked, Katrinaed or otherwise subjected to significant abuse. >I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian >import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, >straps, chargers, anything else. and piece together the battery and >charger etc off the net than buy a US model. Other than the warranty >is their any other differences, build wise? or anything else that I >need to watch for? Do Nikon sell body only without cables, battery, straps etc? Sounds highly dubious. You have no idea what you are going to get for you money, if anything until it arrives (or doesn't) . You are sending money or worse still your credit card details half way around the world you people you don't know. More to the point is you are not going to be able to do anything if it all goes wrong. It is hard enough to sort out stuff in your own country never mind the other side of the world. >It's not like it's a Fake camera, it still has all the great Nikon >build correct? Only if you actually get it in your hands. They can send you an empty box and claimed it was stolen on route.... The first rule of a scam is that people always want something fro nothing and believe that there really is such a thing as a free lunch. Buy from Asia if you can afford to loose the 510 USD or you personally know people who have dealt with them before and been happy about it. Signature\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \/\/\/\/\ Chris Hills Staffs England /\/\/\/\/ /\/\/ chris@phaedsys.org www.phaedsys.org \/\/\ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ >>I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian >>import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > Do Nikon sell body only without cables, battery, straps etc? Sounds > highly dubious. They probably do on special order as an instrumentation component. > You have no idea what you are going to get for you money, if anything > until it arrives (or doesn't) . [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > Asia if you can afford to loose the 510 USD or you personally know people > who have dealt with them before and been happy about it. > I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian > import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Brian But it's likely a credit card scam, most USA/Canada dealers only have a 10-15% mark-up on a camera. So one for $510 is IMHO a scam. It is. Note that the usual accessories were not included. To get a battery, you have to pay them $90.00 for a 3rd pay battery even though the Nikon battery would only cost $40.00. And they want $150.00 for the charger and $ 60 for the neck strap. And you will need to purchase the video and USB cords. So I guess one will pay an additional $350.00 for accessories that should have been included with the camera. And since one will end up with a 3rd party battery, any damage from that battery by a flame out will void the camera's warranty. > > I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian > > import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > But it's likely a credit card scam, most USA/Canada dealers only have a > 10-15% mark-up on a camera. So one for $510 is IMHO a scam. > I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian > import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > > Brian There cameras are the same.. and some companies sell "legit" gray market. But guess what, Nikon packages the chargers, batteries and straps in the foreign versions as well. What you have here is some retailer, pulling the items out of the box and selling them to you individually. Please do us all a favor and do not patronize such dealers. The Nikon warranty on the foreign product is useless in the USA. If you buy a grey market (i.e. foreign) from a reputable dealer, such as B&H, Adorama and others, they will offer their own warranty equal to Nikon USA's. You can feel pretty safe doing this. These companies also include all the parts that Nikon put in the box. Just remeber that your warranty is with the seller, not Nikon. If you trust the seller to honor that warranty then by all means go for it. But a dealer which has already removed the items from the box has already cleary stated they are dishonest and move by slight of hand. Not someone I would expect to honor any commitment. SignatureJim <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo > I narrowed my search to a D200, It is cheaper for me to buy an asian > import off the net at $510 that is BODY ONLY, no battery, cables, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > It's not like it's a Fake camera, it still has all the great Nikon > build correct? I have to agree with those who say it is a scam. Not only will you have no warranty, but even the Asian Nikons include the battery, cables, etc. The camera you are looking at is probably not even a gray market camera. It either does not exist or it is stolen. |
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