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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / November 2006

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Digital newbie looking for camera

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ShootAndSpin - 13 Nov 2006 08:00 GMT
I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
digital SLR between $800 and $1400?

I'm used to cameras such as Mamiya RB and RZ, so I'd be more
comfortable with similar features, such as the ability to choose
F-stops and exposure times, etc. Basically, what it comes down to is I
need really clean, crisp images with the ability to treat contrast as
film would. (The only reason I bring that up is because I've seen tons
of images shot by professional photogs with digital cameras that are
supposed to be of high quality that tend to fall short. Most of which
have contrast issues, when I've seen similar images shot on film by the
same photographer, where the contrast is great.)

I'd love to get a Hassleblad digital camera or a Canon 1Ds, but they're
just not in my price range. Is it possible to get a great camera in my
price range?

Thanks in advance.
stereoroid@gmail.com - 13 Nov 2006 09:55 GMT
> I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
> photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> need really clean, crisp images with the ability to treat contrast as
> film would.

Hi,

Regarding the features - those are pretty common to all dSLRs. I've yet
to see one that did not offer a full Manual mode with TTL metering, as
well as the expected Priority modes Av & Tv. No problems there.

Regarding the contrast issue, I think you've hit on what is (so far) a
basic limitation in the sensors used in digital cameras in general;
they just doesn't have the exposure latitude of film. So it's hard to
shoot high-contrast scenes, and catch both shadow detail and unblown
highlights in the same shot.

What to do about it... Canon sensors have a reputation for noise
performance, but maybe a Canon shooter can say whether they tackle this
particular problem. Some photographers are using High Dynamic Range
(HDR) post-processing - merging bracketed shots to get a high contrast
result (look up HDR on Wikipedia).

In your price range, Pentax are making some claims of this sort for the
K10D, which is about $900 with lens, uses the same sensor as the Nikon
D80, but with a 22-bit A/D converter and advanced processing. The
brochure says the processing gives them "digital pictures ... now
virtually indistinguishable from analogue film pictures in terms of
colour and dynamic range." We'll see: the reviews and test shots should
be arriving this month, if you can wait a bit.

brian t
http://picasaweb.google.com/stereoroid/
Eddie - 13 Nov 2006 11:16 GMT
>> I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
>> photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> brian t
> http://picasaweb.google.com/stereoroid/

Urggggg, 'Analogue film'? Let's just leave it at 'Film'. Hate the term.

Eddie
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 13 Nov 2006 14:29 GMT
>>I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
>>photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
[quoted text clipped - 34 lines]
> brian t
> http://picasaweb.google.com/stereoroid/

Here we go again with the urban myth of dynamic range!

Pretty much all digital cameras have MUCH HIGHER dynamic range
than any film, print or slide.  What people fail to realize is that
just as print and slide film must be exposed differently,
digital must be exposed differently than either type of film.

Here are some references:

 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/film.vs.digital.summary1.html

 Dynamic Range and Transfer Functions of Digital Images
 and Comparison to Film
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2

 Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
 Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

For the OP, coming from the film world, you'll have a lot to
learn in processing your images.  A key difference between
film and digital is the characteristic curves:
film has a toe, digital does not.  You need to add a toe
with a "curves" tool in an image editor to get the film look
(otherwise digital images look dull).  While the raw data from
digital is linear, a tone curve is applied so that what you
get in your image is a response with a shoulder similar to
film.  That is shown on the above pages.

Processing, see: http://www.ronbigelow.com/articles/articles.htm

As for what camera to choose, what kind of photography?
If you want low light night photography, that could steer you
in one direction, if you want sports, then another, although
some like the Canon 20D or 30D do well at both (at least as a
starter camera).  Then, depending on shooting style, you may want
image stabilized lenses (this is a big innovation that can
really improve photos and extend shooting conditions).
If you ultimately want sports/wildlife action with
super telephoto lenses, then that too restricts choices.
Then if you want sports/wildlife action with image-stabilized
super telephoto lenses, you are restricted to Canon at the moment.
If you want landscape, and high megapixel count, then you
may want to go for a larger megapixel count camera, but be aware
of pixel size, and they tend to be slower (frames per second).

Larger pixels (not megapixel count; the physical size
of each pixel) in general provides for better performance.
This should be obvious in the plots on the does.pixel.size.matter
link above.  I'll have a new digital sensor performance
page up in a week or so with summaries of many cameras.
Some specific cameras can be found at:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html#sensor_analysis
and references therein.

Roger
Alan Browne - 13 Nov 2006 14:47 GMT
> Regarding the contrast issue, I think you've hit on what is (so far) a
> basic limitation in the sensors used in digital cameras in general;
> they just doesn't have the exposure latitude of film. So it's hard to
> shoot high-contrast scenes, and catch both shadow detail and unblown
> highlights in the same shot.

Digital sensors have more dynamic range to the shaddows than slide film,
and similar highlight limits.  Not bad at all.

The FujiFilm S3 and S5 (used with Nikon lenses) provide an additional 2
stops of highlight capture.  In the end more dynamic range than negative
film.

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

Alan Browne - 13 Nov 2006 14:43 GMT
> I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
> photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> just not in my price range. Is it possible to get a great camera in my
> price range?

What contrast issues, specifically?

Nikon D200, Canon 5D, Pentax K100D.

Sony: wait and see what they do to follow up on the A100.

Olympus: very good but future ISO/Mpix constrained which may not be an
issue for you.  Very good lenses.

FujiFilm S3 or S5 may be of special interest to you.  Takes Nikon lenses
and has extended dynamic range in the highlights (about 2 stops better
than slide film and other digital cameras).  But so far limited to 6
Mpixels which constrains the reproduction size somewhat.  (Actually has
12 M sensors, but half of those are the lower sensitivity highlight
sensors paired with regular sensors.  As this is already a pretty dense
packaging of sensors, it will be difficult for them to go up in pix
density without noise issues).

What "kind" of photography do you do?

Signature

-- r.p.e.35mm user resource: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpe35mmur.htm
--        r.p.d.slr-systems: http://www.aliasimages.com/rpdslrsysur.htm
--      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
--                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

ShootAndSpin - 14 Nov 2006 06:57 GMT
> What contrast issues, specifically?
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> --      [SI] gallery & rulz: http://www.pbase.com/shootin
> --                   e-meil: Remove FreeLunch.

The contrast issue I usually see is low contrast in situations that
require a lot more contrast. (A problem which can make an image look
less "sharp" and "milky".)

As far as the type of photos I shoot, it varies. I tend to do quite a
bit of both food/product photography with strobes, and in my spare time
I enjoy shooting fine art-type work, with models
on-location....sometimes with strobes, but most of the time without.
Scott W - 14 Nov 2006 16:30 GMT
.

> The contrast issue I usually see is low contrast in situations that
> require a lot more contrast. (A problem which can make an image look
> less "sharp" and "milky".)

There is a trick to add contrast that sometime does wonders.  Try using
USM with a very large radius, like 250 and a level that is very low
like 20%.

This image was resized so I used a radius of 100
http://www.pbase.com/konascott/image/70216409/original

At first the contrast boosted image look sharper and cleaner but when I
look at it for any length of time it looks artificial.

Scott
Scott W - 13 Nov 2006 18:30 GMT
> I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
> photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.
A DSLR is sort of a blank slate when it comes to what the image will
look like.  The default image will tend to look a lot flatter then many
film images due to film often having more contrast.  But the neat thing
is you can dial in whatever contrast you want, it is much better to do
this with the RAW files then in the camera IMO.

Many people once they get use to the look of a lower contrast less
saturated digital image start to prefer that look, some other go way in
the other direction with very exaggerated contrast and saturation.

But what I find has far impact on the contrast of a photo is not
whether film or digital was used but the nature of the light at the
time the shot was taken.  

Scott
Paul Furman - 13 Nov 2006 18:41 GMT
>>...really clean, crisp images with the ability to treat contrast as
>>film would. (The only reason I bring that up is because I've seen tons
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> saturated digital image start to prefer that look, some other go way in
> the other direction with very exaggerated contrast and saturation.

I shoot RAW+JPEG and dialed down all the contrast settings for the jpegs
and yes I do find I like the lower contrast, lower saturation look. It's
easy to boost contrast and I do that about 1/3 of the time. Easier yet
to apply adjustments to a set of RAW files.

> But what I find has far impact on the contrast of a photo is not
> whether film or digital was used but the nature of the light at the
> time the shot was taken.  

Signature

Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

ShootAndSpin - 14 Nov 2006 07:01 GMT
> >>...really clean, crisp images with the ability to treat contrast as
> >>film would. (The only reason I bring that up is because I've seen tons
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
> Bay Natives
> http://www.baynatives.com

The only problem I've found with adding contrast later in Photoshop is
you usually tend to lose a bit of detail once you do.
Paul Furman - 14 Nov 2006 15:18 GMT
>>>>...really clean, crisp images with the ability to treat contrast as
>>>>film would. (The only reason I bring that up is because I've seen tons
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> The only problem I've found with adding contrast later in Photoshop is
> you usually tend to lose a bit of detail once you do.

Are you sure about this? I'm not... it could be... but I'm sure reducing
contrast is a problem such as bringing out shadows, or recovering
highlights can be hopeless. In any case using the RAW files removes any
such issues.

Signature

Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

Jim - 17 Nov 2006 03:29 GMT
> I'm in the process of attempting to switch from medium format
> photography to digital. Can anyone out there recommend a really good
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>
> Thanks in advance.

You arent' going to equal the performance of medium format in a 1000.00
digital SLR period!  End of story.  In fact you would need to go to the
highend Nikons or Canons to come close.   I was really hoping the price
of medium format would drop big time with digital 35mm SLRS taking
over.. but alas, the bodies have come down, but not the optices.   And
that Hassy? what is it 20,000 USD+ ?
Signature

Jim     <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo

Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 17 Nov 2006 04:24 GMT
>> I'd love to get a Hassleblad digital camera or a Canon 1Ds, but they're
>> just not in my price range. Is it possible to get a great camera in my
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> over.. but alas, the bodies have come down, but not the optices.   And
> that Hassy? what is it 20,000 USD+ ?

Actually, for many situations, it is possible to far surpass
medium format and even 4x5 with a simple 8 megapixel
digital camera.  e.g. See:

 Large Digital Mosaics as a Substitute for Large Format Film
 http://www.clarkvision.com/photoinfo/large_mosaics

I am a large format photographer (I have 4x5 and 8x10 cameras)
but I have not taken a large format film this year, but I
have done many large digital mosaics.

Roger
 
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