Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / December 2006
Nikon D80 - Buy Body Only or Body with Kit Lens?
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Bill Gillespie - 12 Nov 2006 21:18 GMT Hello All, I have read many of the articles posted in this forum regarding the new Nikon D80, thank you for all the information, as well as the many links to reviews, provided.
I have been a photo enthusiast for many years and purchased my first Nikon F in 1972. Over the next few years I added a Nikon FM with a motor drive and a Nikkormat as well as different lenses to my collection. Admittedly I have been very slow to migrate to digital SLR, as I truly LOVE my Nikon film cameras and equipment.
Well it's finally time for the leap to digital and it's just in time for Christmas too!! I have decided to buy the Nikon D80. My experience with film cameras was to purchase the body only as I already had a selection of lenses to use with that body.
My preferred style in photography has always been to use "manual" mode, manually selecting aperture and shutter speed. If I made an error in settings, I tried to correct it in the film and/or print development. I'm not sure how I'll adapt to the new "auto everything" mode, and I suspect that trial and error will tell. The good thing is that with digital is that there is no additional costs associated with trial and error as compared to film.
Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I but the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon D80 with the lens (18-135) kit?
It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I don't have a lens to use with the camera.
Thank you for your consideration.
Bill
Paul Furman - 12 Nov 2006 22:29 GMT > ... > I have been a photo enthusiast for many years and purchased my first [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I don't > have a lens to use with the camera. Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an 'everything' lens (28-200 equivalent) so maybe that's good for you to have AF at such a wide range or maybe better to get an 18-70 or a 12-24 or nothing for now & save up for an 18-55/2.8 DX or 17-35/2.8
Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain, something to investigate... Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots, wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc.
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Bill Gillespie - 13 Nov 2006 03:04 GMT > Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider > angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an > 'everything' lens (28-200 equivalent) so maybe that's good for you to > have AF at such a wide range or maybe better to get an 18-70 or a 12-24 > or nothing for now & save up for an 18-55/2.8 DX or 17-35/2.8 The lenses I plan to continue using are a Nikkor 105mm lens with the A1 bracket and a Vivitar Series 1 70-210 zoom with macro which also has an A1 bracket.
> Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter > without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain, > something to investigate... Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and > folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type > of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots, > wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc. I have been doing quite a bit of research on the Nikon Canada website and from what I have seen my lenses should work with the D80, however I won't be able to use features such as metering...and that's OK.
I am looking for a high quality walk around lens. There are a few lenses on the Nikon website, there's the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED that comes with the D80, there's the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED (which has a high price tag), and the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED.
Thanks, Bill
DoN. Nichols - 13 Nov 2006 04:30 GMT According to Bill Gillespie <greywullf@canada.com>:
> > Your old lenses should work, the only thing missing is probably a wider > > angle walkaround lens. It seems the 18-135 is designed as an [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > bracket and a Vivitar Series 1 70-210 zoom with macro which also has an > A1 bracket. Hmm ... You're saying "A1" bracket, not AI bracket (it should be the letter 'I', not the numeral '1'). Are you perhaps referring to the half-moon clip on the aperture ring which coupled to the Photomic T and Photomic Tn finder prisms? If so -- that is *not* what is needed to couple to (or even to *mount* on) the D70 or D200 (and presumably also the D80). The "AI" aperture ring has interruptions in the skirt of the aperture ring closest to the lens mount.
I have an older Vivitar zoom of similar range (though without the macro capability) and the T4 adaptor for it does *not* have the AI ring -- only the half-moon clip for the Photomic finder/meter.
And *which* 105mm Nikkor? I see two listed in the old
_Nikon F/Nikormat Handbook of Photography_ (Copyright 1968)
One is a 105mm f2.5 and looks like a very nice lens.
The other is a 105mm f4 *preset* (not even an auto diaphragm).
Neither of them have the AI aperture ring, and the preset one could not be adapted to have it.
So -- it is certainly possible that you could have ones without the AI aperture ring.
I've just found that the fellow who does the chip fitting to older lenses is back in business, and he includes a 105mm f1.8, and a 105mm f4 macro.
Check out http://home.carolina.rr.com/headshots/Nikonhome.htm for the fellow who does the chip modification.
I have an 180mm f2.8 which he installed a chip in for my D70.
Pacific rim camera <http://www.pacificrimcamera.com/> has AI conversion kits for quite a few Nikkor lenses, but not for any 105mm version. However, go to the URL above, click on "catalog", scroll down to "NIKON", and click on it. Scroll that page down to the "NIKON REPAIR PARTS" section, and click on "NIKON LENS AI CONVERSION KITS". Scroll down to the first entry with a pink "PHOTO" entry, and click on that to get an image of a typical AI aperture ring. Notice how much of the ring is standing clear of the surface on which it was photographed. Starting at the f22 marking, and going to the left, you can see one of the tabs which enage the camera sensors. The other is just barely visible to the right. If your aperture rings look like this, you can mount the lenses on a D70, a D200 (and presumably a D80). If not, you will have to have the lens modified. (Unfortunately, the web site above keeps displaying the home page URL and uses frames to select areas, so I can't simply post the URL of the ring itself.) (The AI kits also have the half-moon clip for the older cameras with the Photomic finders. You can see it beside the ring, but not yet mounted on it.)
I apparently never bookmarked the site which will modify existing aperture rings to AI style -- but a web search should find it for you if you need it.
Now -- you do know that your existing lenses will give coverage on a digital as though they were longer focal length? The 105mm would give coverage as though it were 157.5mm, and the 70-210mm would give coverage as though it was a 105-315mm. So -- your need for a new lens will probably be towards the wide angle end of the spectrum. I actually got my D70 as body only, and later, as I discovered how well received it was for the price, I got the D70's "kit" lens -- the 18-70mm (equivalent to 27-105mm on a film camera).
> > Ummm, hmm 1972 so I think that's pre-AI and you won't be able to meter > > without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain, [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > and from what I have seen my lenses should work with the D80, however I > won't be able to use features such as metering...and that's OK. If they do not have the AI ring -- you will not be able to *mount* them without probably breaking the sensor on the camera body -- unless you get the aperture rings modified.
> I am looking for a high quality walk around lens. There are a few > lenses on the Nikon website, there's the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm > f/3.5-5.6G IF-ED that comes with the D80, there's the AF-S DX > Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED (which has a high price tag), and the > AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-70mm f/3.5-4.5G IF-ED. The 18-70mm is a very nice lens for the money, and might be a good one to start with, at least.
Good Luck, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Christopher Campbell - 08 Dec 2006 19:25 GMT > I am looking for a high quality walk around lens. There are a few > lenses on the Nikon website, there's the AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 18-135mm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Thanks, Bill Well, the D80 should be all right for a manual shooter such as yourself, but I suspect you would be a lot happier with the D200, which has much more accessible controls.
That said, the best walk-around lens I have yet seen is the 18-200mm AF-S VR. Although it is a little slower than some of the other lenses, the VR allows you about four stops slower shutter speed. So unless you are shooting subjects that move around a lot in dim light, this lens makes a lot of sense. If you want wide, the 12-24mm Nikkor works well. I have even used the 10.5mm fish eye DX as a walk-around lens. It is very light weight, has an extremely wide field of view, is dirt simple to use, and with care the distortion can be turned into an asset (or edited out as necessary).
DoN. Nichols - 13 Nov 2006 03:24 GMT According to Paul Furman <paul-@-edgehill.net>:
> > ... > > I have been a photo enthusiast for many years and purchased my first [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > with film cameras was to purchase the body only as I already had a > > selection of lenses to use with that body. [ ... ]
> > Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I but > > the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon D80 with [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > without having the lenses chipped or get a D200... I'm not certain, > something to investigate... It is indeed pre-AI, and the lens will not even *mount* on the camera without modification. (The same with my D70 -- and the same with the D200.) What will be necessary at a minimum is getting replacement aperture rings in the AI style still available for some lenses), or having the existing aperture rings modified to clear the sensors on the camera, and to even actuate the sensors. There are two things on the AI modified lens which are not present on the pre-AI lenses, and both represent removal of metal from the aperture ring.
One (needed to work mount on the D70) is a tab which is about at 9:00 o'clock when viewing the camera from the lens side, and which tells the D70 (and presumably the D80) whether the lens aperture ring is stopped all the way down, thus assuring that the camera can control the aperture through its full range.
The other (which will be useful on later film cameras such as the N90s, and on the D200 -- I'm not sure about the D80) is another tab which moves through the 1:00 o'clock region, and tells the camera body how many stops you are currently set below the wide open setting for the camera body, so it can calculate the proper shutter speed based on metering with the lens wide open.
Without these (e.g. a non-AI lens) the sensors which the camera bodies have will hit the aperture ring and prevent the lens from moving close enough to the body to operate the bayonet -- and if forced *may* break the sensor linkage within the camera body.
The good news is that there is at least one fellow on the web who offers modification of such lenses. Even if the D80 only needs the first of the two (the closed down fully), I would suggest that you spend the extra money to have both modifications put in at the same time, so you are ready to work on the D200 and other higher-end Nikon bodies.
The fellow who used to add chips to selected lenses seems to have stopped offering that service.
> Tell us exactly which lenses do you have and > folks can comment on whether the 18-135 is good for you. And what type > of photography you want to pursue; low light indoor family shots, > wildlife, architecture, closeups, etc. Indeed so.
Good Luck, DoN.
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Bill Gillespie - 13 Nov 2006 08:05 GMT Hello Don and thank you for the information and links you provided.
I have taken a closer look at my 105mm f.25-f32 lens and at my Vivitar zoom lens and they *appear* to have the same ring as shown in the pictures you referred to. In any case, at least I know there is a distinct possibility that my older lenses can work with a new Digital SLR, even if they require modification.
As for my dilemma, I was debating between the DX 18-135 and the DX 18-70 lens, but the debate has grown to include camera bodies as well. I am now leaning towards the D200 rather than the D80 because of the advantages of using my older lenses. As for the difference in price, well I have to consider my own experience in that the last camera body I bought lasted 30 years. So if you consider the difference in price ($750) over 20 years it costs about $37.50 per year. Not much to think about.
If only I was as convinced when it comes to lenses.
> It is indeed pre-AI, and the lens will not even *mount* on the > camera without modification. (The same with my D70 -- and the same [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > The fellow who used to add chips to selected lenses seems to > have stopped offering that service. Paul Furman - 13 Nov 2006 16:05 GMT > Hello Don and thank you for the information and links you provided. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > ($750) over 20 years it costs about $37.50 per year. Not much to think > about. The Vivitar 70-210 Series 1 sounds like a nice lens, I see one selling for $265.49 used, which is a lot for an old obscure 3rd party lens, depending which version: http://www.robertstech.com/vivitar.htm
Sounds like the 105/2.5 is a nice one too.
But it sounds like they will have to be sent out for modifications to even mount without damaging the camera. The difference between modifying for a D80 and the simpler D200 modification probably isn't worth justifying the D200. It may not be possible to modify the Vivitar? I do think you will want to be able to meter.
The D200 has a larger metal body... if you like that feel. It probably has slightly better manual controls which I guess you would like too but they seem quite similar otherwise. Very similar. You can get a better price on either body at bhphotovideo.com or adorama.com or probably amazon.com I think the D200 is $1600 now.
> If only I was as convinced when it comes to lenses. The 17-80 lens is better, it's flimsy plastic lens & not super fast but a good performer at a reasonable price. If you really like wide angle shooting consider the 12-24 Tokina, for I think under $500. Also consider a used AF 35mm f/2 for around $350 as a normal lens or 50mm f/1.8 for $100 as a short telephoto portrait lens for low light. It might be a bummer if the vivitar can't be modified at all to have only the 105 as a fast lens but yeah the 17-35/2.8 is way expensive.
>> It is indeed pre-AI, and the lens will not even *mount* on the >> camera without modification. (The same with my D70 -- and the same [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] >> The fellow who used to add chips to selected lenses seems to >> have stopped offering that service.
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 Bay Natives http://www.baynatives.com
Bill - 13 Nov 2006 21:25 GMT > The D200 has a larger metal body... if you like that feel. It > probably has slightly better manual controls which I guess you would > like too but they seem quite similar otherwise. Very similar. You > can get a better price on either body at bhphotovideo.com or > adorama.com or probably amazon.com I think the D200 is $1600 now. The OP was looking at the Canadian website and is posting from a Canadian domain, so I would presume he is quoting CDN prices. With B&H or Adorama, he needs to factor in shipping and exchange rates.
Bill - 13 Nov 2006 21:22 GMT > As for my dilemma, I was debating between the DX 18-135 and the DX > 18-70 lens, but the debate has grown to include camera bodies as [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > difference in price ($750) over 20 years it costs about $37.50 per > year. Not much to think about. Keep it simple.
If you intend to use the older lenses, and you can afford it, get the D200. It's a better camera feature and control wise, and it will meter with the older lenses. That convenience of metering is worth the price difference to me, but you'll have to decide if it's worth it to you.
> If only I was as convinced when it comes to lenses. Again, keep it simple - do you want full-time manual override? If not, then get the 18-135. If you do, then get the 18-70 which has a ring Silent Wave Motor so it can instantly be used in both auto or manual focus modes, the 18-135 can not.
The 17-55 f/2.8 you mention is a fine lense, but it's pricey. I considered it when I bought the D80, but when the 18-70 does almost as good for much less, it was hard to justify the cost. The wider aperture at f/2.8 is nice, but I don't desperately need it. I also got a very good deal on the 18-70 used from a trusted friend, so that helped sway my decision. If I was buying everything new, I'd be more inclined to get the 17-55. As a general walk around lense, the 18-70 does a fine job.
frederick - 13 Nov 2006 22:49 GMT > Again, keep it simple - do you want full-time manual override? If not, > then get the 18-135. If you do, then get the 18-70 which has a ring > Silent Wave Motor so it can instantly be used in both auto or manual > focus modes, the 18-135 can not. I think you'll find that although the 18-135 doesn't have ring-motor, manual focus override still works by rotating the focus ring. Playing with one in a shop on D80 and D200, the focus action also seemed reasonably fast, so not like the 18-55 or 55-200.
Bill - 14 Nov 2006 00:45 GMT > I think you'll find that although the 18-135 doesn't have > ring-motor, manual focus override still works by rotating the focus > ring. Almost any lense does that...even if not designed for it.
> Playing with one in a shop on D80 and D200, the focus action also > seemed reasonably fast, so not like the 18-55 or 55-200. Sure, until the DC motor gets ruined from improper use.
:-) DoN. Nichols - 14 Nov 2006 06:49 GMT According to Bill <bill@c.a>:
> > I think you'll find that although the 18-135 doesn't have > > ring-motor, manual focus override still works by rotating the focus [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > > Sure, until the DC motor gets ruined from improper use. There is a switch on the body of the D70 (and D200) which decouples the focusing in the lens from the camera body, thus allowing manual focusing without damaging the body's motor and geartrain.. The D200 also has three positions ((M)anual, (S)ingle, and (C)ontinuous). "Single" focuses once when you half-press the shutter relase. Nice to lock in a focus setting and reframe for composition. "Continuous" tries to track whatever object is in the focus zone of the viewfinder, and thus is better for sports. (The D70 has those choices -- but you have to dive into the menus to change between them. The external switch on the D200 is a lot more convenient for that. I don't know what the D80 has, but I would expect it to at least have the D70's Manual/Auto switch, if not the D200's Manual/Single/Continuous switch.)
Enjoy, DoN.
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Paul Furman - 14 Nov 2006 14:24 GMT > According to Bill <bill@c.a>: > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > has, but I would expect it to at least have the D70's Manual/Auto > switch, if not the D200's Manual/Single/Continuous switch.) The D80 does not have that third focus mode on the switch, but the 2 of the D70. This is the sort of thing I love about the D200. One thing I discovered is the LCD preview zooms in to 200%, actually too much because even sharp shots looks fuzzy! but anyways once you zoom in whatever amount, you can use the 'spin dial' to scroll to the next pic at that same zoom level. It has a super fast and easy way of zooming in too... I remember it was pretty painful to zoom in & check pics on the D70 or ack my old P&S was excruciating, the D200 it's a breeze. Still the D80 looks like it has enough if budget is a concern.
 Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 Bay Natives http://www.baynatives.com
Bill - 14 Nov 2006 23:07 GMT >> Sure, until the DC motor gets ruined from improper use. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > manual focusing without damaging the body's motor and geartrain.. > The That only affects AF lenses which use the screw-drive in the camera body. I'm talking about AF-S lenses which have the focus motor inside the lense.
There are two distinct AF-S motors too, just like the Canon USM design. One is a ring-motor that allows full-time manual control, and the other is a tiny direct coupled motor that drives a tiny gear. Both designs are silent, but only the ring allows full-time manual control with internal focusing and is very fast. The other DC design must be switched to M or manual mode to decouple the focus mechanism from the motor drive.
Something I noticed about the AF / M switch on the camera body, is that it not only shuts off the screw-drive in the body, but it also shuts off the electronic contacts for AF-S lenses. I would have thought the switch would not affect AF-S lenses since they don't need the screw-drive.
frederick - 14 Nov 2006 23:49 GMT >>> Sure, until the DC motor gets ruined from improper use. >> [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > the electronic contacts for AF-S lenses. I would have thought the switch > would not affect AF-S lenses since they don't need the screw-drive. Except that you are wrong. The 18-135 doesn't have a ring motor, but does have manual override.
Bill - 15 Nov 2006 03:17 GMT >> There are two distinct AF-S motors too, just like the Canon USM >> design. One is a ring-motor that allows full-time manual control, [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> > Except that you are wrong. About what exactly?
> The 18-135 doesn't have a ring motor, but does have manual override. I didn't say the 18-135 had a ring motor. From the Nikon website, it appears to have a compact SWM, which usually means a DC drive.
The interesting deviation is the manual focus control. It sounds like something in between the two common designs and as far as I know would make it the only lense from Nikon that operates in this manner.
DoN. Nichols - 14 Nov 2006 06:39 GMT According to Bill Gillespie <greywullf@canada.com>:
> Hello Don and thank you for the information and links you provided. > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > distinct possibility that my older lenses can work with a new Digital > SLR, even if they require modification. O.K. They should mount and work with either external metering, or using another lens for a starting point for metering, or guess, shoot, and "chimp" (check the LCD display -- both look at the image and look at the histogram for judging exposure.
And -- with a D200 (which you mention considering below) you could actually *meter* with these lenses, too.
> As for my dilemma, I was debating between the DX 18-135 and the DX 18-70 > lens, but the debate has grown to include camera bodies as well. I am [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > ($750) over 20 years it costs about $37.50 per year. Not much to think > about. A nice way to put it in perspective. Of course -- while the camera might continue to work that long, the continual production of newer and more feature-ful cameras may tempt you to move on long before then. It all depends on how much those features tempt *you* explicitly. I'm not as much tempted by the larger pixel count of the D200, but the larger viewfinder, and in particular, the ability to use the older lenses without having to juggle a light meter or play guessing games is what really tempts me about that one.
> If only I was as convinced when it comes to lenses. :-)
Since I have the 18-70mm "kit" lens, the one which I really want is the 70-200mm f2.8 VR -- but affording it is a stretch at the moment. (Same for the D200. :-)
BTW I got a private e-mail reply to my post offering suggestions to you. I have not yet seen whether he also posted it to the newsgroup, where it could be of help to you. I guess that his newsreader either responds both to the newsgroup and to the individual whose article he is directly responding to, or he hit the wrong button or key on his newsreader and just responded via e-mail.
Good Luck, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Paul Furman - 14 Nov 2006 14:37 GMT > According to Bill Gillespie <greywullf@canada.com>: > [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > shoot, and "chimp" (check the LCD display -- both look at the image and > look at the histogram for judging exposure. Oh good, so no conversion to allow mounting at all. BTW the D80 also lacks 2 knobs for switching among 3 metering modes and 4 focus methods. I do use the metering knob to switch from spot to matrix, I always use single point for focus. Some of these features are overkill.
> And -- with a D200 (which you mention considering below) you > could actually *meter* with these lenses, too. [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > lenses without having to juggle a light meter or play guessing games is > what really tempts me about that one.  Signature Paul Furman http://www.edgehill.net/1 Bay Natives http://www.baynatives.com
Bill - 13 Nov 2006 00:56 GMT > Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I > but the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon > D80 with the lens (18-135) kit? The D80 has a smaller sensor, so the images will appear cropped using regular 35mm lenses. All your lenses should work as though they're a bit longer, so you may need a new wide angle to cover the reduced FOV.
If wide angle is important, you may want to consider the 18-70 DX f/3.5-4.5 lense which is very good for the price and has more to offer over the 18-135.
> It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I > don't have a lens to use with the camera. What's wrong with your other lenses? Your old 35mm lenses should work, unless they are all AI and manual focus.
If you have a bunch of AI lenses, the D80 will not meter with them. You need the D200 for those lenses.
Bill Gillespie - 13 Nov 2006 03:14 GMT > The D80 has a smaller sensor, so the images will appear cropped using > regular 35mm lenses. All your lenses should work as though they're a bit [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > f/3.5-4.5 lense which is very good for the price and has more to offer > over the 18-135. Thanks for the feedback.
> What's wrong with your other lenses? Your old 35mm lenses should work, > unless they are all AI and manual focus. > > If you have a bunch of AI lenses, the D80 will not meter with them. You > need the D200 for those lenses. I plan to use my older AI lenses and the metering won't work on the D80. The D200 body is priced at $1829 while the D80 is priced at $1079. Is it worth the difference in price for an amateur photog?
DoN. Nichols - 13 Nov 2006 03:37 GMT According to Bill Gillespie <greywullf@canada.com>:
[ ... ]
> > What's wrong with your other lenses? Your old 35mm lenses should work, > > unless they are all AI and manual focus. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > The D200 body is priced at $1829 while the D80 is priced at $1079. Is > it worth the difference in price for an amateur photog? It depends on how many older AI lenses you have and wish to use in a convenient manner. (Or whether you are willing to modify any pre-AI lenses which came with your original Nikon-F.) And -- on whether you wish to use the metering in the camera body, instead of just a hand-held meter. (Compare the cost of replacing those lenses with the cost difference between the two bodies.)
I have a few AI lenses, and am hoping to move up from my D70 to a D200 so I can use those lenses with metering. (The D200 did not exist when I got my D70.)
I also have quite a few pre-AI lenses, which I hope to eventually modify (especially the more extreme focal lengths) so I can mount them on the D70, and eventually meter with them on the future D200.
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Floyd L. Davidson - 13 Nov 2006 06:05 GMT >I plan to use my older AI lenses and the metering won't work on >the D80. The D200 body is priced at $1829 while the D80 is >priced at $1079. Is it worth the difference in price for an >amateur photog? That depends on how much you use the camera, and what you shoot. If you shoot several hundreds of exposures per month, and/or tend to shoot objects that are not static (children, sporting events, etc.), you might want to think about AF lenses and maybe the more expensive body too. You'll find that AF lenses are well worth the cost when objects are moving when you shoot.
Non-metering with Ai (or with a D200 or D2 body, pre-Ai lenses) is a significant inconvenience that perhaps is not tolerable as a day in day out problem. But for occasional use where it would otherwise not be possible, it certainly is something that can be done. For example, modern long telephoto lenses with AF and VR are very expensive; but Ai lenses cost less, and pre-Ai lenses even less. If you have occasional need for an 800mm f/5.6 lense, the fact that the metering on the camera does not work may not be nearly as significant as the several thousands of dollars difference in price of the lense!
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
map - 13 Nov 2006 20:19 GMT Bill a écrit :
>> Sorry for being long winded, but my question is very simple. Do I but >> the Nikon D80 body only and buy X? lens or do I buy the Nikon D80 with [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > f/3.5-4.5 lense which is very good for the price and has more to offer > over the 18-135. what do you mean exactly?
>> It should be noted that as this is my first purchase in digital I >> don't have a lens to use with the camera. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > If you have a bunch of AI lenses, the D80 will not meter with them. You > need the D200 for those lenses. Bill - 14 Nov 2006 01:24 GMT > Bill a écrit : > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > what do you mean exactly? I'm not exactly certain to what you're referring, so I'll presume you mean to ask what the 18-70 has to offer over the 18-135.
If so, the 18-70 offers better image quality with similar sharpness but better across the glass, less CA, and nicer contrast. Don't get me wrong, the 18-135 is no slouch, but the 18-70 is a bit better. It also has a ring SWM that allows full-time manual override of focus control, and a metal lense mount (18-135 has a plastic mount).
Also, I'm not positive but I think the 18-135 lacks a weather seal at the lense mount as well - if it does, I just don't recall seeing it, while I know the 18-70 has a seal at the mount.
Overall the 18-70 is a great lense, and embarrasses most, if not all other "kit" lenses from other DSLR manufacturers. I'm comparing this to a 17-40 f/4 L I used with my Rebel XT for a year...the 18-70 is virtually its equal (except for vignetting at 18mm but we're comparing an APS-C designed lense to a regular full frame 35mm model).
I don't think you'll find a better deal from Nikon. The 18-200 VR comes close with its extra features like wide zoom range and VR, but it's not as cost effective unless you want only one lense.
frederick - 14 Nov 2006 02:34 GMT > If so, the 18-70 offers better image quality with similar sharpness but > better across the glass, less CA, and nicer contrast. Don't get me [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > the lense mount as well - if it does, I just don't recall seeing it, > while I know the 18-70 has a seal at the mount. http://www.dpreview.com/news/0608/06080902nikonafsdx18-135lens.asp "Two focus modes, auto[A] and manual [M], with manual override in auto mode.
I thought your reply when I pointed this out before was a joke. Apparently not.
Bill - 14 Nov 2006 23:33 GMT >> If so, the 18-70 offers better image quality with similar sharpness >> but better across the glass, less CA, and nicer contrast. Don't get [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I thought your reply when I pointed this out before was a joke. > Apparently not. I saw that on DPReview as well, and now I'm confused about it all.
The Nikon site does not mention anything about full-time manual override on the page for the 18-135, and that's something they specifically mention with all other SWM lenses with the ring motor and M/A mode. They also indicate full-time manual with an "M/A" icon beside the lenses:
http://www.nikonimaging.com/global/products/lens/af/dx/af-s_dx_zoom18-70mmf_35-4 5g_if/index.htm
"M/A mode for quick switching between autofocus and manual operation"
http://www.nikonimaging.com/global/products/lens/af/dx/af-s_dx_zoom18-135mmf_35- 56g_ed/index.htm
"Two focus modes, [A] and [M], are available" "M/A mode N/A"
It is possible they have altered the design that uses the ring motor and internal focus, but no distance scale and no M/A mode. However, I would think Nikon would advertise the fact on their main site, but no mention of it at all. Yet they have this on their UK site:
http://www.europe-nikon.com/product/en_GB/products/broad/1117/overview.html
"Focus options — Automatic [A] and Manual [M]: After focus has been achieved by AF-S operation, focus can be manually adjusted with the lens’ mode switch set to A."
And for kicks, they have conflicting info on the US site:
http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=2162
"A compact Silent Wave Motor (SWM) enables fast and quiet autofocusing, along with quick switching between autofocus and manual operation (M/A and M)."
Go figure. The lense does not have an "M/A" mode switch.
I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop into the camera store and take another look at the 18-135. I didn't pay attention to these details the first time. So if the 18-135 can manually focus in A mode, then that's three distinctly different AF-S motor designs:
M/A - M: full-time manual override, even during autofocusing. A - M: auto and manual with manual focus after autofocusing. A - M: auto and manual modes only.
That's not a very consistent naming convention, and they should have an identifier for the new design. Anywho, I'll check it out...
frederick - 14 Nov 2006 23:55 GMT <snip>
> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop > into the camera store and take another look at the 18-135. I didn't pay > attention to these details the first time. I already have. It was no different to use than the 18-70, perhaps just slower AF, but still not bad. If you go to your local mall and find differently, then there must be more than one version of the lens, which sounds unlikely to me :-)
So if the 18-135 can manually
> focus in A mode, then that's three distinctly different AF-S motor designs: > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > That's not a very consistent naming convention, and they should have an > identifier for the new design. Anywho, I'll check it out... The naming convention is confusing, although in future with bodies like the D40 and it's successors (and eventually probably all but pro bodies), you'll need AF-s lenses if you want AF. If micro motor AF-s works nearly as well as ring motor, then it's a fine detail probably not of great interest to the average consumer.
Robert Brace - 15 Nov 2006 01:39 GMT > <snip> >> [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > as well as ring motor, then it's a fine detail probably not of great > interest to the average consumer. Where did you get the idea that with the D40 you need an AF-S lens if you want AF? Bob
frederick - 15 Nov 2006 01:51 GMT >> <snip> >>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop [quoted text clipped - 25 lines] > want AF? > Bob Rumour only - that the D40 doesn't have an AF motor in the body. It sounds quite likely - saves a few $$ for users who would probably buy the camera with an 18-xxx lens and never change it (or to stop those who may buy the body only from Nikon and get a third party lens - as not many yet have AF-s - only Sigma with HSM, and then only on a few lenses) It fits in with Nikon abandoning support for metering with non-chipped MF AI-s (and earlier) lenses in the D50/70/80, as that probably saved a few $$ in not having to have the aperture connecting tabs and ring on the bodies.
Robert Brace - 15 Nov 2006 05:28 GMT >>> <snip> >>>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > $$ in not having to have the aperture connecting tabs and ring on the > bodies. Ah yes -- God bless speculation & rumor. As far as Nikon's abandonment of AI & AI-S support with the recent D50/70/80, have you looked at older film cameras such as the F401 etc. That support hasn't been there in the consumer auto-capable bodies in a long long time. Not missed much either would be my guess, based on the target market for those bodies. Bob
frederick - 15 Nov 2006 05:46 GMT >>>> <snip> >>>>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop [quoted text clipped - 42 lines] > for those bodies. > Bob The D40 "leak" looks like fairly solid and deliberate rumour-mongering. - one of the new marketing tools of the digital age.
Robert Brace - 15 Nov 2006 22:38 GMT >>>>>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop >>>>>> into the camera store and take another look at the 18-135. I didn't [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] >>>>>> A - M: auto and manual with manual focus after autofocusing. >>>>>> A - M: auto and manual modes only.
> The D40 "leak" looks like fairly solid and deliberate rumour-mongering. - > one of the new marketing tools of the digital age. I'll break my own rule (comment on the usability of nothing I don't own or have some extensive, specific, experience in using) and ask your source of the rumors? These "new marketing tools" carry the importance they deserve, with me generally. That is precisely why I haven't commented on the above, middle, manual-autofocus option. I have used the original AF-S lenses extensively and am intimately familiar with their auto and manual focus characteristics, but "manual focus after autofocusing" is a contradiction in terms depending upon how you have configured your Shutter Release - AF ON button to interact??? Bob
Paul Furman - 15 Nov 2006 22:52 GMT > ...I have used the original AF-S lenses extensively > and am intimately familiar with their auto and manual focus characteristics, > but "manual focus after autofocusing" is a contradiction in terms depending > upon how you have configured your Shutter Release - AF ON button to > interact??? I find manual focus override on AF-S lenses frustrating because the lens often grabs focus back again. Maybe I should play with it more, this shouldn't happen but if you forget & take your finger off the half-pressed shutter, it happens. More often, I'll use AF to find the focus then flip it off on the body with my left hand and do manual focus from there. The main reason is to prevent the lens zooming way in or out if it loses what it thinks you want and the picture is lost.
Robert Brace - 16 Nov 2006 00:18 GMT >> ...I have used the original AF-S lenses extensively >> and am intimately familiar with their auto and manual focus [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > main reason is to prevent the lens zooming way in or out if it loses what > it thinks you want and the picture is lost. Yes, that will only happen if you re-press the shutter release and I also find it frustrating. It becomes especially so in setting up for a landscape shot on a tripod as you normally will have to resort to using the switch to de-activate AF or somehow keep the shutter release partially pressed. Especially difficult when trying to effectively juggling the Hyperfocal Distance. I cured all of that by allocating focus to my AF-ON button only and then you can do what you like with your lens' focus and not have to worry about it changing with the shutter press. Once you become accustomed to that configuration, it is an amazing revelation. In a VR lens, the VR remains activated by the shutter partial press, but that is as it should be, in my opinion and usage. Bob
frederick - 15 Nov 2006 23:43 GMT >>>>>>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll drop >>>>>>> into the camera store and take another look at the 18-135. I didn't [quoted text clipped - 26 lines] > interact??? > Bob That wasn't my part of the thread. I guess the OP means that there's the choice of: *AF-s lenses (like the 18-55) where you switch to M on the lens to focus manually which disengages the focus motor on the lens. There is supposed to be a new version II of the cheap 18-55, so perhaps they have changed this to be like the new 18-135. *AF-s lenses with "SWM" ring motor (like the 18-70) or new micro motor (like the 18-135) where you can switch to MF on the body, on the lens (if it has the switch), or leave it on AF and so long as you keep the shutter half depressed, you can focus manually any time by rotating the focus ring which switches AF off temporarily. I don't know why these lenses need a M/A-M switch - it's redundant and only adds to confusion. *Old (and new) screw-drive AF lenses where you have to use the switch on the body to disengage the screw drive.
To add to the confusion, D200 has AF-s (single servo) AF-c (continuous servo) and MF options on the body switch. The D80/70/50 have only AF/MF options, the D80 a button on top to select between AF-s and AF-c, and the D70/50 need to access this through menus. I can understand the cheaper models having no AF-s/AF-c selection on the body, but why the D80 and D200 have different system to achieve the same is beyond me.
Robert Brace - 16 Nov 2006 00:07 GMT >>>>>>>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll >>>>>>>> drop into the camera store and take another look at the 18-135. I [quoted text clipped - 48 lines] > models having no AF-s/AF-c selection on the body, but why the D80 and D200 > have different system to achieve the same is beyond me. The D2 series has always had the 3 positions on the body switch and I find it most useful. I also use the AF-ON switch for focus (sometimes referred to as "Back Focus switch") thus removing the complication of the interaction with the Shutter Release button for changing focus. You then have complete, independent control of shutter release without affecting focus (unless you desire it). I find it much faster & intuitive. Bob
frederick - 16 Nov 2006 00:40 GMT >>>>>>>>> I'll be stopping by the mall this week for other things, so I'll >>>>>>>>> drop into the camera store and take another look at the 18-135. I [quoted text clipped - 56 lines] > I find it much faster & intuitive. > Bob I just wish that there was an international standard that all manufacturers would agree to for things like: The focus ring shall be behind the zoom ring on all lenses. The zoom action shall zoom in when turned clockwise. Lens caps must fit whether they are precisely lined up with the alignment mark or rotated to any of the positions where they should fit if they'd been designed properly. (Sigma's designer needs to be tortured for the caps that they supply for Nikon lenses) Use of the same term (ie AF-s) to describe two things (AF servo mode or the type of focus system) should be a capital offense.
elitevideo1@gmail.com - 08 Dec 2006 14:59 GMT Hey Everyone!
Just to let you know, we have released our new Nikon D80 Training DVD. This video covers every feature and function of the Nikon D80 camera in a step by step easy to understand manner. Your camera has so many features you may not be aware of and we explain each of these features in depth. You can check out the video at: http://www.elitevideo.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=618
Sincerely, Allie B. Elite Video Team
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