I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
trouble evaluating cameras for adequate signal-to-noise
ratio at higher ISOs. I do a lot of night photography. There
seems to be little mention of this topic in reviews. I'd
like to have at least 12.8Mpx for cropping ease and have
raw-file format available.
Can anyone point me in the direction of less-weighty, less
bulky alternative to the DSLR without a loss of optical quality?
--David
just bob - 06 Nov 2006 00:25 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of the EOS-5D and a
> bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having trouble evaluating cameras for
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Can anyone point me in the direction of less-weighty, less bulky
> alternative to the DSLR without a loss of optical quality?
Can you not use a tripod? If so a lot of P&S cams do pretty well with long
exposures.
Mark² - 06 Nov 2006 01:10 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
> the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Can anyone point me in the direction of less-weighty, less
> bulky alternative to the DSLR without a loss of optical quality?
You can't pull high ISO quality out of thin air. You need large photosites
on the sensor, and that means either lower MP counts on a smaller sensor, or
higher pixel counts...but only on larger sensors.

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David Kilpatrick - 06 Nov 2006 01:45 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of the EOS-5D and
> a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having trouble evaluating cameras
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Can anyone point me in the direction of less-weighty, less bulky
> alternative to the DSLR without a loss of optical quality?
You can't match the 5D, because it spreads 12 megapixels over a full
frame, and the pixels are almost the same pitch as a 6 megapixel model.
Your best bet would be to snag an EOS 350D before they disappear, or
even get a used EOS 300D. The 400D uses agressive NR to clean up a
pretty noisy basic 10 megapixel file, while the 350 is about as good as
you get in Canon for high ISO noise. I'd say some of the final
implementation Sony sensor 6 megapixel models are better at 1600/3200 -
the Pentax K100D, Nikon 50D in particular. But it seems pointless to
stray from Canon as a system, so the 350D/350XT makes most sense - with
a cheapie kit lens for lightness.
David
Steve Wolfe - 06 Nov 2006 04:45 GMT
> Your best bet would be to snag an EOS 350D before they disappear, or even
> get a used EOS 300D. The 400D uses agressive NR to clean up a pretty noisy
> basic 10 megapixel file, while the 350 is about as good as you get in
> Canon for high ISO noise.
The 20D/30D perform better than the 350D at high ISO.
> stray from Canon as a system, so the 350D/350XT makes most sense - with a
> cheapie kit lens for lightness.
The kit lens means a very slow aperture wide-open, and stopping down to
f/8 if you want really sharp images. That means even longer images and/or
higher ISO, which solves one of his problems at the expense of the other,
robbing Peter to pay Paul. A fixed-length lens would likely provide as high
(or higher) sharpness and contrast with an aperture at least two stops wider
(three stops, for better lenses), which may be worth the few extra ounces of
weight - provided DOF isn't an issue.
steve
David Kilpatrick - 06 Nov 2006 10:32 GMT
>>Your best bet would be to snag an EOS 350D before they disappear, or even
>>get a used EOS 300D. The 400D uses agressive NR to clean up a pretty noisy
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (three stops, for better lenses), which may be worth the few extra ounces of
> weight - provided DOF isn't an issue.
He was after a light camera and small lens. He already has the 5D (more
or less 20D/30D size) and faster lenses if needed.
David
David Kilpatrick - 06 Nov 2006 10:36 GMT
>>Your best bet would be to snag an EOS 350D before they disappear, or even
>>get a used EOS 300D. The 400D uses agressive NR to clean up a pretty noisy
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> (three stops, for better lenses), which may be worth the few extra ounces of
> weight - provided DOF isn't an issue.
Maybe I shouldn't have said cheapie kit lens - he clearly wants not to
have a bunch of lenses to hand, so that means having a zoom, so that
means have one of limited aperture unless it is to be huge. The 18-55mm
is not unusable, but maybe a wider range, faster independent like the
Sigma 17-70mm f2.8-4 would be a better choice.
David
DD - 06 Nov 2006 06:05 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
> the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Can anyone point me in the direction of less-weighty, less
> bulky alternative to the DSLR without a loss of optical quality?
Leica M8.

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Eddie - 06 Nov 2006 09:37 GMT
>> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
>> the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Leica M8.
I sure would!
;-)
Eddie
Bill Crocker - 06 Nov 2006 16:06 GMT
>> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
>> the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> Leica M8.
They want to lighten their camera load, not their wallet! :)
Bill Crocker
tomm42 - 06 Nov 2006 15:04 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
> the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> --David
Maybe some modest prime lenses would help, a 24 f2.8, 50 f1.8 (or 1.4,
or 60 f2,8 macro) and an 85 f1.8 (105mm if you have the 60) would all
be light weight lenses. If you like long telephoto lenses, maybe look
at Sony, Panasonic or Canon P&S superzooms, Though performance and
images on any ISO but the lowest will look noisy after the 5D.
Tom
Kitt - 06 Nov 2006 19:43 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of
> the EOS-5D and a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
>
> --David
It seems to me you're dreaming rather than asking for directions. What
you have should surely be about the ultimate weight/quality/flexibility
combination. Anything else will just be.... well, something else.
There's this, but it weighs over two pounds:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/
Other than that alternative, the six to ten megapixel aps-c DSLR's
already suggested would seem to be the only (lesser) alternatives to
what you already have. They will save you weight, but surely can't
equal the performance in any of your request/dream areas. If you're
just looking for a solution and not a new system, then I would think a
zoom that fits your walk around needs mated with the lightest camera
should do the trick, regardless of brand since you're not talking about
a whole new system, but rather just a specific needs solution.
Having said that, I can't think there would be a better alternative
than just adding a wide to mid tele IS zoom to your lens collection and
mating it with one of the Rebels? (All around the same weight as the
prosumer superzoom with better everything.) No, you won't have 13
megapixels to crop from or perfect low light performance, but to my
knowledge, that doesn't exist in the form you're wanting. The only
other alternative that I can see is a medium format with a digital back
and hire a caddy to tote it around for you. ;o)
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Nov 2006 02:59 GMT
> I'd like to find an alternative to the bulk and weight of the EOS-5D and
> a bunch of Canon 2.8L lenses, but I'm having trouble evaluating cameras
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>
> --David
To answer your question about reviews concerning signal-to-noise ratio,
be cautious about reviews. Many use jpeg and even raw data that
has been heavily modified by the raw converters (and all raw converters
modify the data). The smaller pixel size cameras are doing more
pixel averaging to hide noise. I have sensor analyses at:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/index.html#sensor_analysis
As a summary, see Figure 6 at:
http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter
The "unity gain ISO" tells relatively how many photons each pixel really
collects. You'll see that the 5D is at the top of the heap.
The other end of the intensity range, the read noise is very low
on Canon's CMOS DSLRS, 2 to 3 times lower than competitors CCDs.
So to go lighter than the 5D, the 20D/30D/350D would be the next
best choice for low light photography. Among amateur astronomers,
the 20D/350D have been the most popular for low light astrophotography
with Canon, and the D50 for Nikon.
A 350D and a 50 mm f/1.8 lens would be very small, light, and
an amazing low light combination.
Roger
J David Ellis - 08 Nov 2006 00:18 GMT
<snip>
Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
been a big help.
Please consider this thread to be closed.
--David
Mark² - 08 Nov 2006 03:33 GMT
> <snip>
> Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
> been a big help.
>
> Please consider this thread to be closed.
> --David
It ain't closed 'til the fat lady posts...

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Skip - 08 Nov 2006 03:38 GMT
>> <snip>
>> Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> It ain't closed 'til the fat lady posts...
Or until someone mentions Hitler, calls someone else a Nazi, or denies the
Holocaust...oops, I just did the first of three...

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Skip Middleton
www.shadowcatcherimagery.com
www.pbase.com/skipm
John McWilliams - 08 Nov 2006 04:44 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>> Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Or until someone mentions Hitler, calls someone else a Nazi, or denies the
> Holocaust...oops, I just did the first of three...
Hah! And I thought you'd be the obese woman.
<s>

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john mcwilliams
Eddie - 08 Nov 2006 10:40 GMT
>>>> <snip>
>>>> Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> <s>
Ummm, Fat chance!
;-)
Eddie
Steve Cutchen - 08 Nov 2006 04:51 GMT
> >> <snip>
> >> Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> Or until someone mentions Hitler, calls someone else a Nazi, or denies the
> Holocaust...oops, I just did the first of three...
To make money fast...
Not Disclosed - 09 Nov 2006 22:28 GMT
>>> <snip>
>>> Thank you all very much for the thoughtful replies. You've
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Or until someone mentions Hitler, calls someone else a Nazi, or denies the
> Holocaust...oops, I just did the first of three...
What if the fat lady was singing; Die Fahne hoch die Reihen fest geschlossen
(Horst Wessel Lied)