Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / November 2006
Minolta-Sony Flash Compatibility
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Fred McKenzie - 26 Oct 2006 16:14 GMT It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be compatible with the Sony Alpha 100. (The 5400xi was the flash of choice for the 9xi film body.) The Sony will fire the flash and the zoom feature changes when the lens is zoomed. It was possible to change exposure by reducing the power level, but TTL exposure doesn't seem to work.
A local camera dealer has the 5600HSD flash for the Konica-Minolta 7D and 5D. Otherwise I'll have an hour's drive to the nearest Ritz store to get the Sony HVL-F56AM flash. Can anyone tell me whether the Konica-Minolta flash for the 7D and 5D is compatible with the Sony? Is there any difference, or is the Sony just a re-branded Konica-Minolta?
Fred
Alan Browne - 27 Oct 2006 03:44 GMT > It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be > compatible with the Sony Alpha 100. (The 5400xi was the flash of choice > for the 9xi film body.) The Sony will fire the flash and the zoom > feature changes when the lens is zoomed. It was possible to change > exposure by reducing the power level, but TTL exposure doesn't seem to > work. Only the Minolta 3600HS and 5600HS (and "D") worked on the 7D/5D and should also work on the Sony A100. It is the Minolta flash with the Sony brand.
> A local camera dealer has the 5600HSD flash for the Konica-Minolta 7D > and 5D. Otherwise I'll have an hour's drive to the nearest Ritz store > to get the Sony HVL-F56AM flash. Can anyone tell me whether the > Konica-Minolta flash for the 7D and 5D is compatible with the Sony? Is > there any difference, or is the Sony just a re-branded Konica-Minolta? Yes (re-branded).
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Alan Browne - 27 Oct 2006 03:49 GMT >> It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be >> compatible with the Sony Alpha 100. (The 5400xi was the flash of [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > should also work on the Sony A100. It is the Minolta flash with the > Sony brand. Sorry, forgot to include:
The 2500D, Macro Ring Flash 1200 and Macro Twin flash 2400 (with macro flash controllers) should also work on the 5D, 7D and A100.
Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have to manually set the power).
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Fred McKenzie - 27 Oct 2006 19:32 GMT > Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have > to manually set the power). Alan-
Can you elaborate on this? My 5400xi flash did function to an extent, but there didn't seem to be any TTL exposure control.
Images are very over-exposed with 1/1 power setting. When I reduce power to 1/32, I get reasonable close-up exposures. Is there any reason to think the TTL is functioning when I do that?
Now that I have the newer flash, it isn't so important to get the xi flash working, but I'd like to know what is going on!
Fred
Neil Harrington - 28 Oct 2006 18:48 GMT >> Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have >> to manually set the power). [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > power to 1/32, I get reasonable close-up exposures. Is there any reason > to think the TTL is functioning when I do that? Not that I can see, and the Minolta literature suggests that it does not.
> Now that I have the newer flash, it isn't so important to get the xi > flash working, but I'd like to know what is going on! I think you just have to accept that that's the way it is -- the older flash units will still fire with the digital SLRs but you don't get TTL flash metering, so can only adjust exposure by tinkering with the power setting and/or aperture. I have a Maxxum 5D myself and have never even tried it with my older Maxxum flash units -- I suppose I ought to experiment with them just out of curiosity.
Neil
Fred McKenzie - 29 Oct 2006 19:53 GMT > I think you just have to accept that that's the way it is -- the older flash > units will still fire with the digital SLRs but you don't get TTL flash > metering, so can only adjust exposure by tinkering with the power setting > and/or aperture. I have a Maxxum 5D myself and have never even tried it with > my older Maxxum flash units -- I suppose I ought to experiment with them > just out of curiosity. Neil & Alan-
I'm getting an education in the evolution of flash. It never would have occurred to me that the TTL light would not reflect correctly off of the digital sensor. In the old film world, the film's surface was somewhat matte, and could be replaced by a special gray card to test exposure.
Even though the TTL doesn't work with the digital body, the older flashes should work in their own auto mode using the sensor on the flash, or in manual mode. At least the zoom feature works!
Fred
Neil Harrington - 02 Nov 2006 19:10 GMT >> I think you just have to accept that that's the way it is -- the older >> flash [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > flashes should work in their own auto mode using the sensor on the > flash, But the Maxxum flash units never had a sensor on the flash, at least not the standard units that connected by the proprietary flash shoe. It was all TTL, or manual. If you had some sort of older (or anyway non-TTL) automatic flash, that should work in auto mode with the camera in manual or aperture priority -- if you could connect it to the camera. I don't know how you'd do that, exactly. Maybe someone makes a standard hot shoe to Minolta adapter, or a PC terminal to Minolta shoe adapter.
> or in manual mode. At least the zoom feature works!
:-) Yes, now that you mention it I guess it would. Neil
Fred McKenzie - 04 Nov 2006 18:34 GMT > But the Maxxum flash units never had a sensor on the flash, at least not the > standard units that connected by the proprietary flash shoe. It was all TTL, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > that, exactly. Maybe someone makes a standard hot shoe to Minolta adapter, > or a PC terminal to Minolta shoe adapter. Neil-
You are right! I had assumed the sensor was there, but never tried to use it. The Minolta 4000AF flash, which has the regular hot shoe, doesn't have one either.
Yes, Minolta made the FS-1100 hot shoe-to-Minolta adapter.
Fred
PG - 09 Nov 2006 09:38 GMT > Even though the TTL doesn't work with the digital body, the older > flashes should work in their own auto mode using the sensor on the > flash, or in manual mode. At least the zoom feature works! I think this thread is confirming what I discovered last night. I have KM 5D, and acquired a used basic flash - a Jessops 280AFM for non-digital Minoltas. As you'll see, I'm a flash newbie, so these may well be stupid questions.
So I shouldn't expect the TTL to work, because I'd need a Minolta D-compatible flash, or a Sony one, right?
The flash itself has a sensor, but I'm confused as to how that works. There's a table on the back of the flash, giving aperture settings for different ISOs and subject distances. Is the idea that if I set the camera (in Aperture priority mode) to the aperture suggested in the table, the onboard sensor should ensure correct exposure (at least for an ideal flat, 18% grey subject)?
Or is it likely that the flash doesn't realise TTL doesn't work, and will be expecting a signal from the camera rather than using its own sensor?
In either case, how (if at all) can I use different aperture settings for depth of field variation, without messing up the exposure? There are no settings on the flash that allow me to manually set the power or anything, and presumably the flash doesn't know what aperture I'm using. Is this flash going to be next to useless?
Any advice gratefully received.
- PG
Fred McKenzie - 10 Nov 2006 21:39 GMT > In either case, how (if at all) can I use different aperture settings > for depth of field variation, without messing up the exposure? There > are no settings on the flash that allow me to manually set the power or > anything, and presumably the flash doesn't know what aperture I'm > using. Is this flash going to be next to useless? PG-
If I understand your description of the Jessops flash, it has a sensor that sees light reflected from the subject being photographed, and quenches the flash output at some predetermined level. If so, you likely have only one insulated contact on the bottom of the flash shoe, and it doesn't use any data from the camera except when to fire. (If it has a second contact, that might be to signal the camera when the flash is ready to fire.)
To use it with any camera, digital or film, you must set the lens aperture for an f/stop that depends on film or sensor ISO setting. The chart on the flash is often just an approximate guide. Fortunately with digital cameras, you can experiment without wasting film.
In addition to the f/stop, you must be able to set the ISO to some known value. By choosing different combinations, you may be able to achieve a desirable depth of focus.
One warning to consider - what is the voltage on the flash contact? Some digital cameras might be damaged by voltages found on older flash equipment. See if the owner's manual tells what voltage the KM 5D is designed to tolerate.
Fred
Alan Browne - 28 Oct 2006 20:47 GMT >>Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have >>to manually set the power). [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > Can you elaborate on this? My 5400xi flash did function to an extent, > but there didn't seem to be any TTL exposure control. Right. You can set a nominal aperture and then control the power in full stop steps (1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32) using the histogram as a guide. (I _assume_ the 5400xi has the same power controls as the 5400HS that I have, IAC). The closer you are, the less power (or close down the aperture some).
Also adjust aperture to offset for the coarse full stop intervals of the flash.
> Images are very over-exposed with 1/1 power setting. When I reduce > power to 1/32, I get reasonable close-up exposures. Is there any reason > to think the TTL is functioning when I do that? You need the 5600HS or 5600HSD to get TTL flash (2500D, 3600HS too). The reason is that for just about all digital cameras a pre-flash metering is made using the prism located exposure sensors.
Only the later Minolta flashes support pre-flash. Pre-flash as a metering method was available in the Maxxum 9 and 7 (and 5?) so those later flashes were pre-equipped for digital. Whether that was foresight or luck (later I believe) I'm happy I have a 5600HS.
Film TTL flash exposure was OTF (Off the film) in the early days and was the main method for almost all Maxxum cameras up to the Maxxum 9 and 7 (which incorporated pre-flash as well, and the 7 incorporated distance as well).
But digital sensors do not reflect light efficiently (at least for flash measurement, perhaps too specular). (If you have a minolta Maxxum film camera, open the film door (w/o film of course), set Bulb, hold down the shutter and look at the bottom of the chamber (bottom of the mirror section) and you will see a slot with three sensors: that's the OTF sensor array).
So digital cameras fire a weak pre-flash, measures the return (assumes a mid-tone world), and then pre-sets the flash power before the actual shot. In P-mode I assume there is an aperture v. power balancing act, but I'm not entirely sure. I just shoot "M" with a nominal shutter speed (1/160 for the 7D) and whatever aperture I need.
[In P&S cameras the flash sensor is the CCD/CMOS itself; in reflex cameras it is the reflected light meter traditionally used for non-flash shots]
Result? On the Maxxum 7D, 90% or more shots of people end up with closed eyes as the pre-flash makes them blink right on time for the shot! Red-eye reduction mode might help get the eye blink timing different, but I haven't tried it. For people shots I just use manaul flash exposure and set distances ... much better consistency in exposure and color, usually bounced off of at least a small reflector, ceiling or wall...
Like others, I've found that the pre-flash exposure on the 7D is in error by about 1.3 to 1.7 stops under. So in the rare times that I use TTL flash on the 7D I usually have the flash comp set to +1.5. I don't know if this has been fixed in the Sony A100. K-M had a fix for the exposure problem that involved sending them the flash and the camera for some procedure (not sure if it was calibration or re-programming, but I was not willing to part with my equipment for a couple weeks to get it adjusted. Most of my flash work with the 7D has been with studio flash for which it is a very capable camera).
[Sidebar: there are also some Minolta lenses with focus distance reporting that are coupled into the flash power computation. This reduces the error from non-mid-tone metering. I only have one (D) lens that support that, but not a lens I use much with attached flash.]
Cheers, Alan
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Fred McKenzie - 27 Oct 2006 05:01 GMT > Only the Minolta 3600HS and 5600HS (and "D") worked on the 7D/5D and > should also work on the Sony A100. It is the Minolta flash with the > Sony brand. Alan-
Thanks for the reassurance. I went ahead and got the local 5600HS(D) flash. The dealer let me try it on my camera in the store. It seems to work perfectly, and its operation matches the flash described in the camera manual.
Fred
Geir Eivind Mork - 29 Oct 2006 16:40 GMT Fred McKenzie skrev:
> It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be > compatible with the Sony Alpha 100. (The 5400xi was the flash of choice > for the 9xi film body.) The Sony will fire the flash and the zoom > feature changes when the lens is zoomed. It was possible to change > exposure by reducing the power level, but TTL exposure doesn't seem to > work. Oh bugger! What do I do with my 5400xi flashes then? :P
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