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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / November 2006

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Minolta-Sony Flash Compatibility

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Fred McKenzie - 26 Oct 2006 16:14 GMT
It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be
compatible with the Sony Alpha 100.  (The 5400xi was the flash of choice
for the 9xi film body.)  The Sony will fire the flash and the zoom
feature changes when the lens is zoomed.  It was possible to change
exposure by reducing the power level, but TTL exposure doesn't seem to
work.

A local camera dealer has the 5600HSD flash for the Konica-Minolta 7D
and 5D.  Otherwise I'll have an hour's drive to the nearest Ritz store
to get the Sony HVL-F56AM flash.  Can anyone tell me whether the
Konica-Minolta flash for the 7D and 5D is compatible with the Sony?  Is
there any difference, or is the Sony just a re-branded Konica-Minolta?

Fred
Alan Browne - 27 Oct 2006 03:44 GMT
> It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be
> compatible with the Sony Alpha 100.  (The 5400xi was the flash of choice
> for the 9xi film body.)  The Sony will fire the flash and the zoom
> feature changes when the lens is zoomed.  It was possible to change
> exposure by reducing the power level, but TTL exposure doesn't seem to
> work.

Only the Minolta 3600HS and 5600HS (and "D") worked on the 7D/5D and
should also work on the Sony A100.  It is the Minolta flash with the
Sony brand.

> A local camera dealer has the 5600HSD flash for the Konica-Minolta 7D
> and 5D.  Otherwise I'll have an hour's drive to the nearest Ritz store
> to get the Sony HVL-F56AM flash.  Can anyone tell me whether the
> Konica-Minolta flash for the 7D and 5D is compatible with the Sony?  Is
> there any difference, or is the Sony just a re-branded Konica-Minolta?

Yes (re-branded).

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Alan Browne - 27 Oct 2006 03:49 GMT
>> It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be
>> compatible with the Sony Alpha 100.  (The 5400xi was the flash of
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> should also work on the Sony A100.  It is the Minolta flash with the
> Sony brand.

Sorry, forgot to include:

The 2500D, Macro Ring Flash 1200 and Macro Twin flash 2400 (with macro
flash controllers) should also work on the 5D, 7D and A100.

Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have
to manually set the power).

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Fred McKenzie - 27 Oct 2006 19:32 GMT
> Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have
> to manually set the power).

Alan-

Can you elaborate on this?  My 5400xi flash did function to an extent,
but there didn't seem to be any TTL exposure control.

Images are very over-exposed with 1/1 power setting.  When I reduce
power to 1/32, I get reasonable close-up exposures.  Is there any reason
to think the TTL is functioning when I do that?

Now that I have the newer flash, it isn't so important to get the xi
flash working, but I'd like to know what is going on!

Fred
Neil Harrington - 28 Oct 2006 18:48 GMT
>> Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have
>> to manually set the power).
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> power to 1/32, I get reasonable close-up exposures.  Is there any reason
> to think the TTL is functioning when I do that?

Not that I can see, and the Minolta literature suggests that it does not.

> Now that I have the newer flash, it isn't so important to get the xi
> flash working, but I'd like to know what is going on!

I think you just have to accept that that's the way it is -- the older flash
units will still fire with the digital SLRs but you don't get TTL flash
metering, so can only adjust exposure by tinkering with the power setting
and/or aperture. I have a Maxxum 5D myself and have never even tried it with
my older Maxxum flash units -- I suppose I ought to experiment with them
just out of curiosity.

Neil
Fred McKenzie - 29 Oct 2006 19:53 GMT
> I think you just have to accept that that's the way it is -- the older flash
> units will still fire with the digital SLRs but you don't get TTL flash
> metering, so can only adjust exposure by tinkering with the power setting
> and/or aperture. I have a Maxxum 5D myself and have never even tried it with
> my older Maxxum flash units -- I suppose I ought to experiment with them
> just out of curiosity.

Neil & Alan-

I'm getting an education in the evolution of flash.  It never would have
occurred to me that the TTL light would not reflect correctly off of the
digital sensor.  In the old film world, the film's surface was somewhat
matte, and could be replaced by a special gray card to test exposure.

Even though the TTL doesn't work with the digital body, the older
flashes should work in their own auto mode using the sensor on the
flash, or in manual mode.  At least the zoom feature works!

Fred
Neil Harrington - 02 Nov 2006 19:10 GMT
>> I think you just have to accept that that's the way it is -- the older
>> flash
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> flashes should work in their own auto mode using the sensor on the
> flash,

But the Maxxum flash units never had a sensor on the flash, at least not the
standard units that connected by the proprietary flash shoe. It was all TTL,
or manual. If you had some sort of older (or anyway non-TTL) automatic
flash, that should work in auto mode with the camera in manual or aperture
priority -- if you could connect it to the camera. I don't know how you'd do
that, exactly. Maybe someone makes a standard hot shoe to Minolta adapter,
or a PC terminal to Minolta shoe adapter.

> or in manual mode.  At least the zoom feature works!

:-)  Yes, now that you mention it I guess it would.

Neil
Fred McKenzie - 04 Nov 2006 18:34 GMT
> But the Maxxum flash units never had a sensor on the flash, at least not the
> standard units that connected by the proprietary flash shoe. It was all TTL,
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> that, exactly. Maybe someone makes a standard hot shoe to Minolta adapter,
> or a PC terminal to Minolta shoe adapter.

Neil-

You are right!  I had assumed the sensor was there, but never tried to
use it.  The Minolta 4000AF flash, which has the regular hot shoe,
doesn't have one either.

Yes, Minolta made the FS-1100 hot shoe-to-Minolta adapter.

Fred
PG - 09 Nov 2006 09:38 GMT
> Even though the TTL doesn't work with the digital body, the older
> flashes should work in their own auto mode using the sensor on the
> flash, or in manual mode.  At least the zoom feature works!

I think this thread is confirming what I discovered last night. I have
KM 5D, and acquired a used basic flash - a Jessops 280AFM for
non-digital Minoltas. As you'll see, I'm a flash newbie, so these may
well be stupid questions.

So I shouldn't expect the TTL to work, because I'd need a Minolta
D-compatible flash, or a Sony one, right?

The flash itself has a sensor, but I'm confused as to how that works.
There's a table on the back of the flash, giving aperture settings for
different ISOs and subject distances. Is the idea that if I set the
camera (in Aperture priority mode) to the aperture suggested in the
table, the onboard sensor should ensure correct exposure (at least for
an ideal flat, 18% grey subject)?

Or is it likely that the flash doesn't realise TTL doesn't work, and
will be expecting a signal from the camera rather than using its own
sensor?

In either case, how (if at all) can I use different aperture settings
for depth of field variation, without messing up the exposure? There
are no settings on the flash that allow me to manually set the power or
anything, and presumably the flash doesn't know what aperture I'm
using. Is this flash going to be next to useless?

Any advice gratefully received.

- PG
Fred McKenzie - 10 Nov 2006 21:39 GMT
> In either case, how (if at all) can I use different aperture settings
> for depth of field variation, without messing up the exposure? There
> are no settings on the flash that allow me to manually set the power or
> anything, and presumably the flash doesn't know what aperture I'm
> using. Is this flash going to be next to useless?

PG-

If I understand your description of the Jessops flash, it has a sensor
that sees light reflected from the subject being photographed, and
quenches the flash output at some predetermined level.  If so, you
likely have only one insulated contact on the bottom of the flash shoe,
and it doesn't use any data from the camera except when to fire.  (If it
has a second contact, that might be to signal the camera when the flash
is ready to fire.)

To use it with any camera, digital or film, you must set the lens
aperture for an f/stop that depends on film or sensor ISO setting.  The
chart on the flash is often just an approximate guide.  Fortunately with
digital cameras, you can experiment without wasting film.

In addition to the f/stop, you must be able to set the ISO to some known
value.  By choosing different combinations, you may be able to achieve a
desirable depth of focus.

One warning to consider - what is the voltage on the flash contact?  
Some digital cameras might be damaged by voltages found on older flash
equipment.  See if the owner's manual tells what voltage the KM 5D is
designed to tolerate.

Fred
Alan Browne - 28 Oct 2006 20:47 GMT
>>Other flashes (i, xi, 5400HS, and some others can be used, but you have
>>to manually set the power).
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Can you elaborate on this?  My 5400xi flash did function to an extent,
> but there didn't seem to be any TTL exposure control.

Right.  You can set a nominal aperture and then control the power in
full stop steps (1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32) using the histogram as
a guide.  (I _assume_ the 5400xi has the same power controls as the
5400HS that I have, IAC).  The closer you are, the less power (or close
down the aperture some).

Also adjust aperture to offset for the coarse full stop intervals of the
flash.

> Images are very over-exposed with 1/1 power setting.  When I reduce
> power to 1/32, I get reasonable close-up exposures.  Is there any reason
> to think the TTL is functioning when I do that?

You need the 5600HS or 5600HSD to get TTL flash (2500D, 3600HS too).
The reason is that for just about all digital cameras a pre-flash
metering is made using the prism located exposure sensors.

Only the later Minolta flashes support pre-flash.  Pre-flash as a
metering method was available in the Maxxum 9 and 7 (and 5?) so those
later flashes were pre-equipped for digital.  Whether that was foresight
or luck (later I believe) I'm happy I have a 5600HS.

Film TTL flash exposure was OTF (Off the film) in the early days and was
the main method for almost all Maxxum cameras up to the Maxxum 9 and 7
(which incorporated pre-flash as well, and the 7 incorporated distance
as well).

But digital sensors do not reflect light efficiently (at least for flash
measurement, perhaps too specular).  (If you have a minolta Maxxum film
camera, open the film door (w/o film of course), set Bulb, hold down the
shutter and look at the bottom of the chamber (bottom of the mirror
section) and you will see a slot with three sensors: that's the OTF
sensor array).

So digital cameras fire a weak pre-flash, measures the return (assumes a
mid-tone world), and then pre-sets the flash power before the actual
shot.  In P-mode I assume there is an aperture v. power balancing act,
but I'm not entirely sure.  I just shoot "M" with a nominal shutter
speed (1/160 for the 7D) and whatever aperture I need.

[In P&S cameras the flash sensor is the CCD/CMOS itself; in reflex
cameras it is the reflected light meter traditionally used for non-flash
shots]

Result?  On the Maxxum 7D, 90% or more shots of people end up with
closed eyes as the pre-flash makes them blink right on time for the
shot!  Red-eye reduction mode might help get the eye blink timing
different, but I haven't tried it.  For people shots I just use manaul
flash exposure and set distances ... much better consistency in exposure
and color, usually bounced off of at least a small reflector, ceiling or
wall...

Like others, I've found that the pre-flash exposure on the 7D is in
error by about 1.3 to 1.7 stops under.  So in the rare times that I use
TTL flash on the 7D I usually have the flash comp set to +1.5.  I don't
know if this has been fixed in the Sony A100.  K-M had a fix for the
exposure problem that involved sending them the flash and the camera for
some procedure (not sure if it was calibration or re-programming, but I
was not willing to part with my equipment for a couple weeks to get it
adjusted.  Most of my flash work with the 7D has been with studio flash
for which it is a very capable camera).

[Sidebar: there are also some Minolta lenses with focus distance
reporting that are coupled into the flash power computation.  This
reduces the error from non-mid-tone metering.  I only have one (D) lens
that support that, but not a lens I use much with attached flash.]

Cheers,
Alan

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Fred McKenzie - 27 Oct 2006 05:01 GMT
> Only the Minolta 3600HS and 5600HS (and "D") worked on the 7D/5D and
> should also work on the Sony A100.  It is the Minolta flash with the
> Sony brand.

Alan-

Thanks for the reassurance.  I went ahead and got the local 5600HS(D)
flash.  The dealer let me try it on my camera in the store.  It seems to
work perfectly, and its operation matches the flash described in the
camera manual.

Fred
Geir Eivind Mork - 29 Oct 2006 16:40 GMT
Fred McKenzie skrev:
> It never occurred to me that an old Minolta 5400xi flash might not be
> compatible with the Sony Alpha 100.  (The 5400xi was the flash of choice
> for the 9xi film body.)  The Sony will fire the flash and the zoom
> feature changes when the lens is zoomed.  It was possible to change
> exposure by reducing the power level, but TTL exposure doesn't seem to
> work.

Oh bugger! What do I do with my 5400xi flashes then? :P
 
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