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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2006Couldn't help it - sorry Canon
Well it happened...I'm a traitor. I've been seriously pondering a move to a larger camera body from the diminutive Canon XT the last few months, and today a friend pushed me to the edge with an offer to buy my Canon gear. So I jumped. I sold him my Canon Rebel XT body and all of my Canon lenses including 17-40 and 70-200 f/4 models, along with my Canon specific accessories, flash, remote, memory cards, spare bag, etc. He now has everything he needs to go out and shoot digital, and he's a happy camper. So I went out after work and bought the Nikon D80 body, SB-600, memory cards, and remote. I stopped by my friends place on the way home to pick up his used Nikon 18-70 and 50mm f/1.8 lenses. I also borrowed his 80-200 D to play with till the weekend. I broke about even on the deal, give or take a night at the bar. I will have to buy a telephoto lense, but I can live with that. All I can say is, "wow"...the difference in handling and usability is dramatic. Image quality is similar as I expected, but the big thing is the viewfinder - it almost feels like going back to full frame. And the responsiveness is surprising. I figured it wouldn't be much of an improvement over the XT, but the D80 is a tad faster in everything it does. Obviously the loss of the wonderful Canon 70-200 f/4 L is the only thing I miss so far, but hopefully I can make it up with the new 70-300 VR when it arrives, if it's good enough. I'll still have access to my friends 70-200 f/2.8 VR and other sweet glass if needed, but the small 70-300 VR and 18-70 will be great for travel. I feel like a kid with a new toy...can't wait for the weekend. :-) > So I jumped. I sold him my Canon Rebel XT body > So I went out after work and bought the Nikon D80 body, > All I can say is, "wow"... To be fair, you've gone from an early 2005 camera to a current model which costs significantly more than the Canon did when it came out. Hardly surprising such an upgrade feels like a jump in quality - that's exactly what it is. > > So I jumped. I sold him my Canon Rebel XT body > > So I went out after work and bought the Nikon D80 body, [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Hardly surprising such an upgrade feels like a jump in quality - that's > exactly what it is. Yeah, apart from the viewfinder (which is admitedly better on the D80), I'm hard pressed to think of many things he mentions that he'd not have gained by jumping to a 30D. I'm not saying that the 30D is a better camera, but honestly I can't imagine giving up all of that glass so lightly. The irony is that I moved to my 20D from a D70 with the exact same 18-70 and 50/1.8, and I never looked back (in part because of the Canon glass I chose to invest in... the Nikon *lenses* were always fine), mostly because the 20D was a better camera than the D70 in every way I could think to measure. But everyone has different preferences, I suppose. To be honest, I imagine having seperate dials for shutter and iris (vs the system on the Rebels) is reason enough to be excited. Will > Yeah, apart from the viewfinder (which is admitedly better on the D80), > I'm hard pressed to think of many things he mentions that he'd not have > gained by jumping to a 30D. I'm not saying that the 30D is a better > camera, but honestly I can't imagine giving up all of that glass so > lightly. Yes, I'd have thought with a 17-40mm f/4 L and a 70-200mm f/4 L there were better upgrade paths. I have both of those lenses and I'd need hell of a deal to get me to part with them. Still, he seems happy enough with improvements to handling, usability and viewfinder. Let's hope he's still as happy when he sees the images his new equipment produces. That L glass he's traded in will take some matching. >> Yeah, apart from the viewfinder (which is admitedly better on the D80), >> I'm hard pressed to think of many things he mentions that he'd not have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > his new equipment produces. That L glass he's traded in will take some > matching. Don't Nikon make any good lenses in those f/l ranges? > Don't Nikon make any good lenses in those f/l ranges? I don't know the Nikon range, but I'd have thought that they can match Canon in most areas (and vice versa). My point was that the OP *had* those 2 'L' lenses, and I doubt if Nikon has anything better than them for the money he got by selling them. >> Don't Nikon make any good lenses in those f/l ranges? > > I don't know the Nikon range, but I'd have thought that they can match > Canon in most areas (and vice versa). I believe that Canon can make lenses that open a little bit wider, because they have a larger connector mount. Nikon makes a 50mm f/1.2. (http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=5&productNr=1435) >> Don't Nikon make any good lenses in those f/l ranges? > [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Nikon has anything better than them for the money he got by selling > them. I did take a loss on the 70-200, but I think it's worth it to get the handling I wanted. Everything else has balanced out for now. For the longer stuff, I'm borrowing my friends 80-200 f/2.8 D lense and optically it's great...just a bit bigger/heavier than I like. I'm looking forward to trying the new Nikon 70-300 VR when it arrives next month. > >> Yeah, apart from the viewfinder (which is admitedly better on the D80), > >> I'm hard pressed to think of many things he mentions that he'd not have [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > > his new equipment produces. That L glass he's traded in will take some > > matching.Don't Nikon make any good lenses in those f/l ranges? What Nikon is missing is a really good 80-200 f4, they have several amateur lenses, a 55-200 plastic lens, a 70-210 f4-5.6, or the 70-300s. There was a 70-210 f4 in the '80s, nice lens but slow focusing, since discontinuing this lens Nikon has felt if you want a pro lens get an f2.8. Which they make 2 both excellent lenses, an 80-200 f2.8 and a 70-200 f2.8 with VR. Tom >>>> Yeah, apart from the viewfinder (which is admitedly better on the D80), >>>> I'm hard pressed to think of many things he mentions that he'd not have [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > f2.8. Which they make 2 both excellent lenses, an 80-200 f2.8 and a > 70-200 f2.8 with VR. What Nikon are missing is the 70-300 VR that will be here soon. > What Nikon is missing is a really good 80-200 f4, they have several For a couple hundred more you can get the 80-200 2.8, gaining some stops and much better glass. >> > So I jumped. I sold him my Canon Rebel XT body >> > So I went out after work and bought the Nikon D80 body, [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > have > gained by jumping to a 30D. The 30D is a very good camera, but it just doesn't have the handling of the Nikon. There are a few minor things I preferred in the Nikon as well, like a better menu display. The cost was also a factor as the 30D costs $350 CDN more than the D80. That difference paid for the new flash and remote. > I'm not saying that the 30D is a better > camera, but honestly I can't imagine giving up all of that glass so > lightly. It wasn't an easy decision...the 70-200 f/4 is an excellent lense and will be missed. But everything else I was able to match with Nikon gear and break even on the deal. If my friend had not been interested in my setup, I would still have the Canon - it's all about timing I guess. I also have access to the best glass that Nikon has to offer through a friend who is a pro and uses some very nice gear. I managed to pickup the used 18-70 and 50mm from him for only $100, which was also part of the incentive to switch. The 18-70 is almost as good as the Canon 17-40, so I'm at the same image quality there. The telephoto is the only area where I'll take a financial loss, but to me it's worth it for the better handling. Speaking of image quality, the Nikon is great in RAW. I used the 50mm f/1.8 to test for sharpness and find the JPG images are a bit soft, similar to how the D70s would soften them while keeping high resolution and sharpness in the RAW files. But I turned up the sharpness a notch for in-camera JPG and it's more than adequate for quick snaps. For more serious shots I shoot RAW anyways. >> So I jumped. I sold him my Canon Rebel XT body So I went out after >> work and bought the Nikon D80 body, >> All I can say is, "wow"... > > To be fair, you've gone from an early 2005 camera to a current model > which costs significantly more than the Canon did when it came out. Actually the D80 costs exactly $100 CDN more than the XT did when it arrived in Feb 2005, which I don't consider a significant amount when you're paying a grand for a camera. :-) In contrast, the Canon 30D costs another $350 CDN more than the Nikon but doesn't offer anything extra to justify that price, except the magnesium body which isn't important to me. I would have saved some money staying with the Canon lenses, but I couldn't justify the handling contraints for what it would save me in costs. I also didn't plan on upgrading for at least another year or more, but after using my friends D200 a few times and trying the D80, I was hooked on the viewfinder. I should also mention the menu and display is much better on the Nikon too. > Hardly surprising such an upgrade feels like a jump in quality - > that's exactly what it is. It's not the technology that attracted me, but the design and handling, and the much improved viewfinder. Even if Canon had made the same viewfinder, the way the Nikon feels in my hands is better than the Canon, which is a very subjective thing. About 10 years ago when I bought my first SLR film camera, I didn't like the feel of the grips on the Nikon consumer bodies (liked the pro models though), which is why I went with Canon. In fact, Minolta had the best grips of all three, but I didn't like what they had to offer at that time and price point. Now the handling has improved and I prefer the Nikon grip. > Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > [quoted text clipped - 29 lines] > > I feel like a kid with a new toy...can't wait for the weekend. Welcome to the fold. The D80 is a great little camera and you'll be satisfied for many years. Check out the D80 gallery here: http://nikongear.com/alb/ I suspect you will be quite disappointed with the 70-300mm VR because it definitely won't be in the same league as the 70-200mm you've been using from both Canon and Nikon. I would suggest cancelling that purchase and going for the 18-200mm VR.  Signaturewww.nikongear.com Share, learn, win. >> Obviously the loss of the wonderful Canon 70-200 f/4 L is the only >> thing I miss so far, but hopefully I can make it up with the new [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > Welcome to the fold. The D80 is a great little camera and you'll be > satisfied for many years. Check out the D80 gallery here: Yup...the camera is excellent. I checked the sensor performance yesterday, looking for dust, pixel problems, and noise. For the dust on the sensor (white wall at f/22 with 50 f/1.8), I was pleasantly surprised to see nothing, not a single speck of dust from the factory. For dead or hot pixels I couldn't find any issues up to 30 seconds. I do see a few hot pixels on longer exposures, but that's perfectly normal and expected. For noise at high ISO settings, the performance is very good. It's not quite as good at 800 & 1600 as the Canon, but it's close enough to be more than usable. I rarely go above 100 unless I have to in order to get the shot - I'd rather use a tripod and keep the ISO low. So far there is nothing this camera doesn't do as well or better than the Canon, so I'm quite pleased with the performance and image quality. I'm a happy camper. > I suspect you will be quite disappointed with the 70-300mm VR > because it [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > and > going for the 18-200mm VR. I haven't ordered it...I'm still waiting for it to arrive next month to evaluate its performance and decide if it's good enough or not. I don't expect it will be perfect or up to the L glass level, but if it performs similar to the 18-200 I'll be happy with it for traveling. I won't buy the 18-200 since I already have the 18-70. My friend has the 18-200 which he uses as a walk around lense and that's why he sold his 18-70 to me for a great price. This is the only area where I knew I'd have a problem - replacing the 70-200 f/4 lense. Nikon doesn't have a fast focusing 80-200 for around $700-900 CDN. They do have the $1200 80-200 f/2.8 D, but it uses the screw drive on the camera body so it's not as quick as an AFS lense although it's not slow, and there is more noise and torque reaction than I'd like (the Canon USM spoiled me). So if the new lense doesn't perform well enough, then I'll have to look at something else. >>> Obviously the loss of the wonderful Canon 70-200 f/4 L is the only >>> thing I miss so far, but hopefully I can make it up with the new [quoted text clipped - 44 lines] > So if the new lense doesn't perform well enough, then I'll have to look > at something else. It's IMO rather ignorant of the OP to state that the 70-300 VR will be disappointing. Sure we know it's variable aperture and not as fast. Aside from that it's also known that it's IF and has ring motor AF-s, so will be fast focusing. Optical performance is unknown, but MTF data from Nikon's website looks promising - in a different league to the cheap 70-300 lenses. > This is the only area where I knew I'd have a problem - replacing the > 70-200 f/4 lense. Nikon doesn't have a fast focusing 80-200 for around [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > So if the new lense doesn't perform well enough, then I'll have to > look at something else. Don't dismiss the 80-200mm f/2.8D too quickly. I used to have one of these lenses and even with the manual coupling, it was a very quick performer. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that on an F100 it focussed faster than my 70-200mm VR. Signaturewww.nikongear.com Share, learn, win. >> This is the only area where I knew I'd have a problem - replacing >> the [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > focussed > faster than my 70-200mm VR. I'm not using an F100 though. And since this is the first Nikon camera I've owned, I only have a little practical experience of the screw drive compared to a new D80 (I've used the D70s a fair bit). On the D80 I feel the 80-200 isn't quite fast enough for my liking. I've been spoiled by high speed USM/SWM drives so this is a disappointment. And there is the issue with torque, and focus noise. The weight I can learn to live with since the optics are good. But all the other things are disappointing. > Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > > I've been seriously pondering a move to a larger camera body from the > diminutive Canon XT the last few months, and today a friend pushed me to > the edge with an offer to buy my Canon gear. >snip>>> I think you've thrown the baby out with the bathwater. Today, you may like the Nikon body better. Tomorrow Canon will introduce a new one that is better than your Nikon. The *smart* shopper picks a brand because and sticks with it, because lenses are where the serious photographer spends 2/3 of his/her money or more and you can't afford to replace your lens collection every time the *other* camera maker introduces a better body. Besides, how long do you think your buddy is going to be happy with you borrowing his lenses? Personally, I'll loan a friend a lens for a weekend. If he likes it, he's free to buy one just like it, but he isn't welcome to use my lens (or lenses) anytime he goes out to take a picture... KB There are three people in this world to whom I will loan lenses, and they are all professional photographers who I know will be more zealous about protecting the borrowed lens than they will be about their own, and they are positively obsessive about the latter. Actually, only two of them would borrow from me, the other shoots Nikon... SignatureSkip Middleton www.shadowcatcherimagery.com www.pbase.com/skipm > >> Well it happened...I'm a traitor. [quoted text clipped - 18 lines] > > KB > There are three people in this world to whom I will loan lenses, and > they are all professional photographers who I know will be more > zealous about protecting the borrowed lens than they will be about > their own, and they are positively obsessive about the latter. > Actually, only two of them would borrow from me, the other shoots > Nikon... That's how I am when it comes to borrowing things - I treat the items BETTER than if I owned it myself. Usually when I borrow a lense, I find the glass isn't clean or there's dust in the switches and rings. So I return it cleaned and looking better than when I picked it up. Now I know why he lets me borrow stuff - I'm his damned cleaning service! :-) >> Well it happened...I'm a traitor. >> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] > may like the Nikon body better. Tomorrow Canon will introduce a new > one that is better than your Nikon. That's inevitable...there will always be a better camera. But now I have what I want...a camera with good functionality, and good optics. With the Canon I had good optics, but less than ideal functionality. I was expecting to upgrade at some point, it was inevitable. I just didn't anticipate Nikon would have such a great camera at this price so soon. I pondered the 30D, but it just didn't offer me anything substantial - it's just a tweaked 20D, and the 20D is just a larger bodied version of the XT. I couldn't justify spending $1400 CDN on a new body that only offered one feature I wanted - a spot meter. > The *smart* shopper picks a brand because and sticks with it, > because lenses are where the serious photographer spends 2/3 of > his/her money or more and you can't afford to replace your lens > collection every time the *other* camera maker introduces a better > body. I agree that lenses are generally more important than the camera body, which is why my lenses were worth about 3x as much as the camera. And I agree that dumping one system for the other is not practical every time a better body comes along. But of course, no one does that, except maybe if you're Bill Gates. I've been using Canon for 10 years, and if Canon offered a body that matched what the D80 has, then I'd still be a Canon user. The D200 was the body that had everything I wanted in a cropped camera, except price. The D80 offered me the same thing, but at a reasonable price - it made the switch cost-effective to me. I was hoping Canon would introduce the 30D with a better viewfinder like the Nikon, but they didn't. It's better than the Rebel line, but not by much, and it's no match for the Nikon. Being able to see more clearly in the viewfinder is important to me, and Canon doesn't have any cropped cameras that match. I pondered an upgrade to a full frame body like the 5D, but I don't like the handling of the 5D as much and the cost is still way too high. Canon might bring out a "7D" or something next year with a full frame sensor and lower price. But would it be at $1000? I highly doubt it, so the Nikon is the better option at that price point and it's available right now. I couldn't wait forever hoping that something would arrive. Usability and comfort are important and the Nikon wins hands down in that regard, for me. > Besides, how long do you think your buddy is going to be happy with > you borrowing his lenses? Personally, I'll loan a friend a lens for > a weekend. If he likes it, he's free to buy one just like it, but he > isn't welcome to use my lens (or lenses) anytime he goes out to take > a picture... I lend things to friends I trust whenever they want - that's why they're friends. I have no problem if a friend wants to borrow something for a day or a week or a month. And they're welcome to borrow as often as they want, as long as it doesn't interfere with my needs. I guess I'm lucky about glass for two reasons: 1 - my friend knows I treat my equipment with extreme care and would never damage anything of his. If I did, he knows I'd pay to repair or replace it. Trust is not an issue here and I've been borrowing from him for about three years. In fact, it was his idea to lend me the gear when I showed interest. 2 - he has lots of glass. When I borrow a lense like the 80-200 I have with me now, he has three other lenses that would cover the same range - a 70-200 VR, an 85 prime, and a 200 prime. He also has a 300 for the really long stuff, plus teleconverters to extend that range. Now obviously if he needs a specific lense, I don't get to borrow it at the same time. But as long as he doesn't have an immediate need, I'm free to borrow almost any lense whenever I wish. I should also mention that I don't borrow all the time. Right now I have just the one lense. Once the new 70-300 VR is available I'll check it out, and if it's up to my standards I'll get one. If not, then I'll have to make a decision on another lense. > Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > :-) Anyone thinking of the Rebel XTi should absolutely try the Nikon or the new Pentax when it comes out. Both are miles ahead when it comes to shooting comfort. >> Well it happened...I'm a traitor. >> [quoted text clipped - 35 lines] > new Pentax when it comes out. Both are miles ahead when it comes to > shooting comfort. And of course you have so much experience with all these cameras and can advise us because of your first hand knowledge?? Two Orange pills for you tonight, suppositories I think. > >> Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > >> [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > And of course you have so much experience with all these cameras and can > advise us because of your first hand knowledge?? As a matter of fact, yes. I used the Nikon 3 times, the Rebel twice (as well as having used the older Rebels a fair bit and I've handled the Pentax for about 15 minutes. Both cameras "feel" far better than using the Rebel XTi. Here's a shot I took of the Pentax. It could be the ringer in the 10 megapixel race, all things considered. The lens on the front is a very short 70mm prime. http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68561086 Pete D wrote: >> > Anyone thinking of the Rebel XTi should absolutely try the Nikon >> > or the [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> and can >> advise us because of your first hand knowledge?? The Nikon D80 is right at the size limit for my hands. Any smaller and my little finger hangs off the bottom of the camera. Based on photos I've seen of the K10D beside the D80 and Canon 30D, I'd say it's too small for me to hold comfortably: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/PentaxK10D/Images/sidebyside01.jpg Too bad they felt the need to make it small. In fact, if you look at the next photo, you can see part of the persons finger sticking out the bottom: http://www.dpreview.com/articles/PentaxK10D/Images/inhand01.jpg The Pentax sounds like it will be a decent camera though, based on features and performance. > > >> Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > > >> [quoted text clipped - 47 lines] > short 70mm prime. > http://www.pbase.com/andersonrm/image/68561086 What's wrong with that picture? It looks like extreme grain. > > > >> Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > > > >> [quoted text clipped - 49 lines] > > What's wrong with that picture? It looks like extreme grain. 800 ISO and about 4 stops under in the dark areas. The lighting in that hall was awful, except where the pro fotogs were doing demonstrations. Welcome to the fold...you'll love using your new D80. One recommendation is to try out (if you can find it) the excellent 18-200mm VR. I bought one for my D200 and it almost never leaves the camera. Between the 18-200 and my 12-24mm, I get all the coverage I used to have with five separate prime lenses and one zoom for my old Nikon film cameras. The 18-200 vastly simplifies going out on a shoot. Enjoy taking pictures and remember, it's not the camera that makes great images, it's the photographer.... > Well it happened...I'm a traitor. > [quoted text clipped - 30 lines] > > :-) > Welcome to the fold...you'll love using your new D80. Why do people keep saying that? I'm not a sheep, dang it, I'm not a sheep! More like a wolf... :-) > One recommendation is to try out (if you can find it) the excellent > 18-200mm My friend has that lense and uses it as a walk around. But I now have the 18-70 for a walk around and will soon add a telephoto zoom to the mix. I also have a 50mm f/1.8 and will likely add a 10.5 fisheye. I'm also considering the 17-35 for low light work in that range. > "jhthurman" <jhthurman@nc.rr.com> wrote in message >> Welcome to the fold...you'll love using your new D80. > Why do people keep saying that? Because they are Masadans? The Faithful? The true-believers? > I'm not a sheep, dang it, I'm not a sheep! > More like a wolf... A sheep in wolf's clothes, probably. :-> -Wolfgang |
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