Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / March 2005
Sandisk Extreme III CF cards?
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John A. Stovall - 05 Mar 2005 02:13 GMT Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. It is noticable or a "never mind". I'm getting ready to by 4 gig of CF, 2 -1gig and one 2gig and am debating between Sandisk and Lexar.
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Frank ess - 05 Mar 2005 02:50 GMT > Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III > cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. It is > noticable or a "never mind". I'm getting ready to by 4 gig of CF, 2 > -1gig and one 2gig and am debating between Sandisk and Lexar. I think it's a tossup in the camera. If you download from a reader, you might see a difference. If I read it right, Sandisk is consistently quicker.
 Signature Frank ess
Bill - 05 Mar 2005 06:42 GMT >Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III >cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. It is >noticable or a "never mind". I'm getting ready to by 4 gig of CF, 2 >-1gig and one 2gig and am debating between Sandisk and Lexar. It's a "won't ever notice the difference" kind of thing. :)
Using a stopwatch or other timing device, you can measure a slight speed difference. But your perceptions of performance won't feel any different between the two in practical use.
Buy whatever you prefer.
David H. Lipman - 05 Mar 2005 16:38 GMT || Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III || cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. It is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | | Buy whatever you prefer. I disagree. When you have a GigaByte or more of data being transferred the speed is greatly appreciated. I don't just use my CF cards with my dSLR. I also use in as a removeable drive for transporting software. A 1GB CF card holds more than a CDROM and is random-read/random-write as compared to a burn process read only media as a CDROM plus and 80x CF or greater is faster than a CDROM with NO latency. The Extreme III is more than twice the speed of of an Ultra II (133x vs 60x) which means instead of waiting 5 mins for a data download it takes a little over 2 mins. Now compare a 133x card to older 12x cards. Even if you compare a 133x CF to a 80x CF it is still more than 50% faster.
 Signature Dave
G.T. - 05 Mar 2005 19:35 GMT > || Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III > || cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. It is [quoted text clipped - 15 lines] > 80x CF or greater is faster than a CDROM with NO latency. The Extreme III is more than > twice the speed of of an Ultra II (133x vs 60x) Nowhere close to that according to realworld testing.
Greg
Bill - 05 Mar 2005 19:39 GMT >|| Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III >|| cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >data download it takes a little over 2 mins. Now compare a 133x card to older 12x cards. >Even if you compare a 133x CF to a 80x CF it is still more than 50% faster. That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which is what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference.
G.T. - 05 Mar 2005 19:46 GMT > >|| Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III > >|| cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which is > what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference. It won't even make that big of a difference in cardreaders. Does David really think that he's going to get more than twice the speed?
Greg
David H. Lipman - 05 Mar 2005 20:33 GMT >> That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which is >> what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference.
| It won't even make that big of a difference in cardreaders. Does David | really think that he's going to get more than twice the speed?
| Greg Yes ! Yes I do, based on my past empirical tests using an older SanDisk CF card and the Ultra II card using the Windows NT Performance Monitor on Win2K and WinXP and the System Monitor on WinME for "File System" transfer rates. Tests were made using the two different rated speed CF cards on a USB 2.0 interface (no hub) and a SanDisk SDDR-91 CF Card Reader done around June of last year. Note the older card was a 32MB Canon branded CF card but is actually an OEM CF card for Canon.
BTW: WinME had better performance than Win2K which was slightly better than WinXP SP1.
 Signature Dave
G.T. - 06 Mar 2005 00:49 GMT > >> That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which is > >> what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > done around June of last year. Note the older card was a 32MB Canon branded CF card but is > actually an OEM CF card for Canon. That may have been the case comparing the older SanDisk card but comparing an Extreme III 2GB to an Ultra II 2GB isn't going to buy you that much:
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6133
Greg
David H. Lipman - 06 Mar 2005 01:10 GMT >> | "Bill" <bill@c.a> wrote in message | news:y6mdnVNlxax6l7ffRVn-3A@golden.net...
>> >> That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which | is >> >> what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference.
>> | It won't even make that big of a difference in cardreaders. Does David >> | really think that he's going to get more than twice the speed?
>> | Greg
>> Yes ! Yes I do, based on my past empirical tests using an older SanDisk | CF card and the [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] | branded CF card but is >> actually an OEM CF card for Canon.
| That may have been the case comparing the older SanDisk card but comparing | an Extreme III 2GB to an Ultra II 2GB isn't going to buy you that much:
| http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6133
| Greg Greg:
I wish I had one to test ! But I will accept anothers table of results until I do.
 Signature Dave
Bill - 06 Mar 2005 03:59 GMT >| That may have been the case comparing the older SanDisk card but comparing >| an Extreme III 2GB to an Ultra II 2GB isn't going to buy you that much: > >| http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6133 > >I wish I had one to test ! But I will accept anothers table of results until I do. If you intend to do these tests on a computer instead of inside a digital camera, it won't mean much to those here.
I for one am only interested in tests that show read/write speeds in digital cameras where I intend to use the memory card.
David H. Lipman - 06 Mar 2005 04:59 GMT >|> That may have been the case comparing the older SanDisk card but comparing >|> an Extreme III 2GB to an Ultra II 2GB isn't going to buy you that much: [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] | I for one am only interested in tests that show read/write speeds in | digital cameras where I intend to use the memory card. It is half the picture Bill and provides actual numbers, not perception. Last time I looked there were no utilities in digital cameras to benchmark transfer rates.
And when you get down to it, the table at http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6133 was performed with the following... *"The reader was a Lexar FireWire CompactFlash, model RW019; the computer a Power Mac G5/Dual 2.0GHz with 1.5GB RAM running OS X 10.3.7."* So any tests I may do "for myself" are in line with other's tests.
Lastly who knows how the 350D will operate since it came out relatively just after the Extreme III cards wer put out on the market and Canon uses SanDisk OEM CF cards.
So please... Keep your mind open. ;-)
 Signature Dave
DoN. Nichols - 06 Mar 2005 05:58 GMT [ ... ]
>| I for one am only interested in tests that show read/write speeds in >| digital cameras where I intend to use the memory card. > >It is half the picture Bill and provides actual numbers, not perception. Last time I looked >there were no utilities in digital cameras to benchmark transfer rates. Put it in the camera, select multi-frame mode, hold down shutter release until you hear the rate slow down because the buffer is full. Then, start your stop watch, count ten images, and stop the stop watch. This will give a transfer rate from the buffer to the CF card.
I really don't care *how* fast (or slow) it is from the card to the computer. I'm not depending on it being ready for another shot at that time. That is like the difference between the time to expose film in our earlier cameras and the time to develop them. Two different matters.
What matters to me is how fast they get written from the buffer to the CF card, so there is room for the next shot. (And this, only in special circumstances.)
If you want to use it to make a bootable filesystem for your computer, that is a different matter (and really off topic for this newsgroup). And there, there is a different limitation to worry about. The number of write cycles for the typical CF card is finite, and a computer using it to boot from is constantly updating things on it, chewing up those precious write cycles. There are special CF cards which are somewhat slower but with essentially unlimited write cycles for that purpose.
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Bill - 06 Mar 2005 06:27 GMT > and provides actual numbers, not perception. Last time I looked >there were no utilities in digital cameras to benchmark transfer rates. Not a benchmark utility, but a reasonably decent measurable method. See the tests your own link points to below.
>And when you get down to it, the table at >http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=6007-6133 was performed with the >following... *"The reader was a Lexar FireWire CompactFlash, model RW019; the computer a >Power Mac G5/Dual 2.0GHz with 1.5GB RAM running OS X 10.3.7."* So any tests I may do "for >myself" are in line with other's tests. Yup...and I'm not saying your tests are wrong, just not applicable to what most users want to know - is card X faster than card Y in my camera.
If you read all of the article, you know the important tests were those conducted with actual cameras. High transfer speeds from the card reader to a computer may be nice, but it's not the critical part of the process of taking photos.
>Lastly who knows how the 350D will operate since it came out relatively just after the >Extreme III cards wer put out on the market and Canon uses SanDisk OEM CF cards. > >So please... Keep your mind open. ;-) My mind is open...to card/camera performance. :)
Steve Gavette - 06 Mar 2005 04:58 GMT > >> That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which is > >> what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > BTW: WinME had better performance than Win2K which was slightly better than WinXP SP1. You said in your earlier post that the Extreme III is more than twice as fast as the Ultra II, but your test above was not with those cards. I agree with the results you provided, but I did not see an appreciable difference in speed between the U II and E III. And test results I've seen elsewhere only show a 10-15% difference, no where near double.
David H. Lipman - 05 Mar 2005 20:19 GMT | That's all well and good, but in a digital camera like the 20D, which is | what we're discussing here, it won't make an appreciable difference. That's only half the picture.
 Signature Dave
DM - 05 Mar 2005 20:21 GMT Bill's right,
Performance wise it's splitting hairs. Both are extremely quick cards & suit the 20D down to the ground. Personally, I use the Sandisk Extremes due to the added guarantee re. performance at temperature extremes.
Regards
DM
>>Looking at Rob Galbraith CF data base the new Sandisk Extreme III >>cards have a slight edge in the Canon 20D over Lexar's 80x. It is [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > Buy whatever you prefer. DoN. Nichols - 05 Mar 2005 21:44 GMT >Bill's right, > >Performance wise it's splitting hairs. Both are extremely quick cards & suit >the 20D down to the ground. Personally, I use the Sandisk Extremes due to >the added guarantee re. performance at temperature extremes. Wasn't the Sandisk the one which had some destructive interactions with certain older card readers reported here in the last month? That *might* be sufficient reason to skip that one unless you are *sure* that it will *never* be read in an older reader.
I'm currently running a pair of 1GB Lexar 80x cards, and am quite happy with them. (I may move to some 4GB ones later, to handle a higher percentage of RAW images.)
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
DM - 06 Mar 2005 00:58 GMT DoN,
Saw the thread but stayed out of the 'debate' as quite frankly I've never had any problem with the cards despite using them in numerous readers (though I had to admit my heart was in my mouth at the recent 'Focus On Imaging' exhibition when the Epson Rep simply unplugged his card reader from the MAC with the my card still inside!)
Regards
DM
>>Bill's right, >> [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Enjoy, > DoN. DoN. Nichols - 06 Mar 2005 06:05 GMT >DoN, > >Saw the thread but stayed out of the 'debate' as quite frankly I've never >had any problem with the cards despite using them in numerous readers That is good news.
>(though I had to admit my heart was in my mouth at the recent 'Focus On >Imaging' exhibition when the Epson Rep simply unplugged his card reader from >the MAC with the my card still inside!) Without unmounting the filesystem first? IIRC, on a Mac, you unmount a filesystem (and eject on ejectable media) by dragging the icon to the trash folder -- another thing designed to give one qualms the first time it is done. :-)
On Windows 2000, I put the mouse over the icon for the flash card, right-click, and select "eject" to unmount the filesystem.
On my Suns, I simply cd out of the mounted flash card (if I was in there to start with), and then type "umount /fc0" or "umount /fc1" depending on which slot it is in. (This all depends on the proper lines already being /etc/fvstab, of course, otherwise the mount command can be rather complex.)
Of course, it is going to get re-formatted in the camera immediately afterwards, since I will have copied the images to two separate directories on two different disks -- just to be sure, since disks do fail from time to time.
Enjoy, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Ben Rosengart - 06 Mar 2005 06:26 GMT > On Windows 2000, I put the mouse over the icon for the flash > card, right-click, and select "eject" to unmount the filesystem. This technique works on Mac OS X as well. (If you're not using a multi-button mouse, hold down the "control" key when you click.)
> On my Suns, I simply cd out of the mounted flash card (if I was > in there to start with), and then type "umount /fc0" or "umount /fc1" > depending on which slot it is in. Try this on your Mac, then:
% diskutil eject /Volumes/EOS_DIGITAL Disk /Volumes/EOS_DIGITAL ejected
 Signature Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215 Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing. --Josh Micah Marshall
DoN. Nichols - 06 Mar 2005 06:44 GMT >> On Windows 2000, I put the mouse over the icon for the flash >> card, right-click, and select "eject" to unmount the filesystem. [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > % diskutil eject /Volumes/EOS_DIGITAL > Disk /Volumes/EOS_DIGITAL ejected I would -- except that I don't *own* a Mac. I do own a token Windows system (for income tax programs and a very few other things not yet supported on unix), and a bunch of unix boxen.. A Mac would do as well as a Windows box for those things -- but they tend to cost more for a seldom-used system. :-)
Thanks, DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
G.T. - 06 Mar 2005 10:03 GMT > >> On Windows 2000, I put the mouse over the icon for the flash > >> card, right-click, and select "eject" to unmount the filesystem. [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] > Windows system (for income tax programs and a very few other things not > yet supported on unix), and a bunch of unix boxen.. What's a boxen? I don't see it in the dictionary. Are you a pretentious UNIX admin who wishes they had a bunch of vaxen to admin? What UNIX boxes do you own?
Greg
Ben Rosengart - 06 Mar 2005 17:08 GMT > What's a boxen? I don't see it in the dictionary. From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]:
Boxen \Box"en\ (b[o^]ks"'n), a. Made of boxwood; pertaining to, or resembling, the box ({Buxus}). [R.] The faded hue of sapless boxen leaves. --Dryden.
From Jargon File (4.3.0, 30 APR 2001) [jargon]:
boxen /bok'sn/ pl.n. [very common; by analogy with {VAXen}] Fanciful plural of {box} often encountered in the phrase `Unix boxen', used to describe commodity {{Unix}} hardware. The connotation is that any two Unix boxen are interchangeable.
 Signature Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215 Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing. --Josh Micah Marshall
G.T. - 06 Mar 2005 18:29 GMT > > What's a boxen? I don't see it in the dictionary. > [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > describe commodity {{Unix}} hardware. The connotation is that any two > Unix boxen are interchangeable. Yep, pretentious jargon.
Greg
Ben Rosengart - 06 Mar 2005 18:38 GMT >> From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: >> [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Yep, pretentious jargon. Philistine. Nobody appreciates the Restoration poets any more.
 Signature Ben Rosengart (212) 741-4400 x215 Sometimes it only makes sense to focus our attention on those questions that are equal parts trivial and intriguing. --Josh Micah Marshall
G.T. - 06 Mar 2005 18:45 GMT > >> From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]: > >> [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Philistine. Nobody appreciates the Restoration poets any more. Hahaha, nice edit. I'm no Philistine, hell, I've never even been to Philistine.
Greg
 Signature "I know what I know I do what I do You don't like my coat f.ck you" - Johnny Dowd
DoN. Nichols - 07 Mar 2005 03:27 GMT [ ... ]
>> I would -- except that I don't *own* a Mac. I do own a token >> Windows system (for income tax programs and a very few other things not >> yet supported on unix), and a bunch of unix boxen.. > >What's a boxen? I don't see it in the dictionary. It is a common plural of "box" in the computer world -- and also among players of button accordions. You won't find it in most dictionarys, but you will find it in _The New Hacker's Dictionary_, published by MIT Press.
> Are you a pretentious >UNIX admin who wishes they had a bunch of vaxen to admin? I do not wish to have even a single VAX, thank you. I am currently a *retired* unix admin -- at least nobody is paying me to play with these now. :-)
> What UNIX boxes >do you own? Hmm ... which order to use? O.K. In *service* at the moment:
3 ea Sun Ultra-2 -- various CPU clock speeds 200 MHZ through 400 MHz (actually, one of the three is down awaiting new disks for a fresh install of a newer version of Solaris.)
1 ea Sun Ultra-1/140 -- running OpenBSD, and serving as a firewall.
3 ea Sun SS-5 -- two 170 MHz, and one 110 MHz -- One running OpenBSD
1 ea Sun SS-20
2 ea Sun SS-10 -- one with two double ROSS CPU cards.
1 ea SUN LX still in service -- domain name server
1 ea Tadpole (Sun SPARC laptop) Booted only when needed.
1 ea Ancient IBM Thinkpad 760XD alternately running OpenBSD or Windows in the field, depending on my needs. Again, booted only when needed.
1 ea Shuttle SS51G Intel box running OpenBSD
1 ea Misc pentium running a modified Linux to control a Bridgeport CNC milling machine.
1 ea Tower style 2.9 GHz Pentium 4, running Windows when I can't avoid it, and scheduled for OpenBSD when I find unix equivalents for the last of the programs. So -- yes, it is *not* a unix box at the moment.
All Sun boxen may be presumed to be running some version of Solaris or SunOs unless otherwise stated.
Aside from those, there are the *retired* machines, unix unless otherwise stated:
1 ea) Altair 680b -- my first home machine. Obviously not unix, nor really equipped with *any* OS.
1 ea) SWTP 6800 -- much modified. Not unix
1 ea) SWTP 6809 -- running OS-9 when last run. A sort of unix-like OS which fit in under 64K of RAM.
1 ea) Cosmos CMS/UNX -- a 68000 based unix machine -- my first unix box. Deadly slow. :-)
3 ea) Sun 2/140 machines -- Motorola 68010 CPU.
1 ea) Sun 3/140 machine -- Motorola 68020 CPU
2 ea) Sun 3/160 and 3/180 machines (same except that the /180 is rackmount.
2 ea) Tektronix 6130 (NS 32016 CPU, BSD 4.2 variant.)
1 ea) Calma (IIRC) double-headed machine with built-in digitizing tablet for drafting, etc, klugy version of Sys5 unix. CPU is the Fairchild clipper.
? ea) Some spare SS-10 and SS-20 boxen not currently installed.
And there may be a few machines which I have forgotten.
Are you satisfied with your off-topic question?
We should probably drop this from this newsgroup. DoN.
 Signature Email: <dnichols@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564 (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
Rodney Myrvaagnes - 07 Mar 2005 17:20 GMT >1 ea) Calma (IIRC) double-headed machine with built-in digitizing tablet > for drafting, etc, klugy version of Sys5 unix. CPU is the > Fairchild clipper. ROTFLMAO! You must have a bigger apt. than I do.
Rodney Myrvaagnes NYC J36 Gjo/a
"Be careful. The toe you stepped on yesterday may be connected to the a.s you have to kiss today." --Former mayor Ciancia
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