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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2006

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Advice on lens sharpness

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ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam - 22 Oct 2006 18:29 GMT
Hi,

Came into a bit of money and thought that I would update my EOS350D with an
L lens.  Always wanted one of these since I have a 50E many moons ago.  Did
a bit of research and purchased a 24-105 F4 L.  I just wanted the best
walkabout lens that I could afford that wwas not too heavy, this seemed to
fit the bill.

Got it, did the usual photographed some walls and compared the output with
that of the standard efs 17-55.

See the RAW samples here, I may be expecting too much, I don;t know, but the
difference to my eye does not warrant the expense that I paid for the L
lens.  Can someone explain if there is more to it or am I just being
paranoid.  To my mind the image is no sharper on the L lens.

Anyway the two raw files in canon format are at www.ukbrown.net/rawtest
Rudy Benner - 22 Oct 2006 18:33 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Anyway the two raw files in canon format are at www.ukbrown.net/rawtest

Can you please check that URL, I get an error message.
ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam - 22 Oct 2006 18:47 GMT
http://www.ukbrown.com/rawtest/ try this one

Thanks
Rudy Benner - 22 Oct 2006 18:55 GMT
> http://www.ukbrown.com/rawtest/ try this one
>
> Thanks

That works.

r.
Rudy Benner - 22 Oct 2006 19:12 GMT
> http://www.ukbrown.com/rawtest/ try this one
>
> Thanks

Truthfully, I cannot say which I like better, but I should also say that I
probably don't know enough to make qualified evaluation.
ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam - 22 Oct 2006 19:34 GMT
> Truthfully, I cannot say which I like better, but I should also say that I
>
> probably don't know enough to make qualified evaluation.

The way everybody speaks on forums is that sharpness just leaps out at you.
Cannot see it my self
Scott W - 22 Oct 2006 19:48 GMT
> > Truthfully, I cannot say which I like better, but I should also say that I
> >
> > probably don't know enough to make qualified evaluation.
>
> The way everybody speaks on forums is that sharpness just leaps out at you.
> Cannot see it my self

Try opening both lenses up to about f/4.0 and also look at the
sharpness in the corners of the image.

A inexpensive lens can work great at high f/numbers.  What the better
lens gives it is the ability to use it at lower f/numbers.

Scott
Steve Wolfe - 23 Oct 2006 04:42 GMT
>> Truthfully, I cannot say which I like better, but I should also say that
>> I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> you.
> Cannot see it my self

Shoot wide-open with both lenses, and look again.

 =)

steve
ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam - 23 Oct 2006 18:17 GMT
> > The way everybody speaks on forums is that sharpness just leaps out at
> > you.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> steve

Hi,

Thanks for your detailed and very reasonable replies,  did what you
suggested and went wide open and yes the difference was a lot more
pronounced so I am somewhat reassured that the L lens is better.  Whether it
is as good as it should be, I will know tomorrow.  I am going to borrow the
same lens from a friend and do a comparison tomorrow.  I will report back.

Thanks again to all respondees.
Steve Wolfe - 22 Oct 2006 19:48 GMT
> http://www.ukbrown.com/rawtest/ try this one

  First, you're still dealing with a zoom.  There are limitations to what
you can do with a zoom.

 Second, you're dealing with a 4x zoom.  The zooms regarded as the best are
often 3x or less.  Going 4x doesn't sound like much, but it does impose more
limitations.

 Third, you're dealing with a wide-to-telephoto lens, which imposes even
more restrictions on the lens.

 Fourth, both shots are at f/8.  Any lens is sharp at f/8.  If it's not,
it's broken.  The difference between a good lens and a poor lens is how
sharp things are wide-open.

 Fifth, there is more to a lens than just sharpness.  What you paid for
with the L lens is the build quality, the IS, better wide-open performance,
more resistance to flare, less chromatic aberration, better contrast and
color, more blades in the aperture, and various other deficiencies.

 Finally, looking at both at 100% with no sharpening at all, the L lens
does indeed look sharper to me - although not by an earth-shattering amount.
You seem to have done a very good job in extracting all of the potential of
the 18-55, I would bet that you had the camera on a tripod.  Take the two
lenses off of a tripod, and at ~50mm, put them both wide-open, and shoot at
1/30th of a second, THEN compare the results.  The true measure of a lens is
not what it can do under optimal conditions, but what it can do in the
worst-case conditions.

steve
Charles Schuler - 22 Oct 2006 22:19 GMT
>> http://www.ukbrown.com/rawtest/ try this one
>
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>
> steve

Glad I read Steve's post before I jumped in as it is an excellent answer.
Jack Mac - 22 Oct 2006 22:31 GMT
>> http://www.ukbrown.com/rawtest/ try this one
>
[quoted text clipped - 27 lines]
>
>steve

From all the hype we read on here about how great L glass is and the premium
one pays to get it, you'd expect it to be better in ALL respects. Now we read
limitations on how it is better than even the lowly kit lens! Which is it?

Jack Mac
Charles Schuler - 22 Oct 2006 23:47 GMT
> From all the hype we read on here about how great L glass is and the
> premium
> one pays to get it, you'd expect it to be better in ALL respects. Now we
> read
> limitations on how it is better than even the lowly kit lens! Which is it?

When I bought my 100-400L, I thought that it would replace my 75-300 IS.

But, I decided to keep the 75-300 because:
   The 100-400 is a beast.  It breaks my back and neck to carry it around.
   I am a walk-and-shoot-wildlife nut, and cannot use tripods or monopods.
   My tripod tests show that the L-glass is sharper; but not by a big
margin.

Other notes:
   The L lens focuses very quickly.
   The L lens is less likely to hunt for the focal point.
   I lose fewer shots with the L lens, due to lens/camera errors.
   I am keeping both lenses.
   L glass is nice but hardly a life and death decider.
Derek Fountain - 23 Oct 2006 09:11 GMT
> From all the hype we read on here about how great L glass is and the premium
> one pays to get it, you'd expect it to be better in ALL respects. Now we read
> limitations on how it is better than even the lowly kit lens! Which is it?

That's an unfairly phrased question. The first part describes your
personal expectations based on hype you've read. The second is a
response to Steve's description of a very specific comparison.

The bottom line is that as long as you make a like for like comparison,
L glass is better than non L glass.
Nobody - 22 Oct 2006 23:43 GMT
>Take the two
>lenses off of a tripod, and at ~50mm, put them both wide-open, and shoot at
>1/30th of a second, THEN compare the results.  The true measure of a lens is
>not what it can do under optimal conditions, but what it can do in the
>worst-case conditions.

But in this case, IIUC, you are matching a IS lens against one without
IS.  Your scenario is therefore false as the main difference will be
the effect of the IS rather than lens sharpness.
Steve Wolfe - 23 Oct 2006 04:33 GMT
>>lenses off of a tripod, and at ~50mm, put them both wide-open, and shoot
>>at
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> IS.  Your scenario is therefore false as the main difference will be
> the effect of the IS rather than lens sharpness.

 That's not unfair at all.  He said that he expected more from his
expensive lens than his cheap lens.  IS is one of many benefits to the
expensive lens.  Like I said, what lenses can do on a test bench isn't so
important as what they do under real-world circumstances, and surprisingly
often, real-world means you don't have a tripod or fast shutter speeds.

steve
bmoag - 23 Oct 2006 00:37 GMT
Absolute resolution is a measurable quality and can make a noticeable
difference that may not be difficult to detect in direct examination of a
film negative or transparency.
Not so much with digital capture media and processing, particularly when the
evalution is made from a processed image viewed through an unselected
monitor under unknown conditions.
It would take drastic differences in lens sharpness to see distinct
differences in complex digital images that are otherwise created and
processed under identical circumstances.
The truth is that those drastic differences in sharpness between very
expensive lenses and more moderate priced lenses do not exist for practical
purposes. The differences in quality between expensive and moderate priced
glass is even less visible in a well crafted print than it is in an enlarged
subsection of an image on a computer monitor.
Rather than opine on these subjects readers of this newsgroup should perform
these comparison tests themselves using their best glass and more moderately
priced glass using digital capture media and optimally processed prints as
the final object. Comparisons between a Lensbaby and a Leica are not the
point, but lenses of the quality that ukbrown has compared are the type that
should be compared.
If you convince yourself you can consistently see a difference award
yourself a hot steaming boquet of bokeh.
default - 23 Oct 2006 08:33 GMT
If you zoom in on the UPC code label, you can see the number of pixels that
the black bars fade to white over.  This is virtually identical between your
18-55 and 24-105mm lenses.

What your pictures show is just how good optically the 18-55mm lens is.  It
feels cheap, looks cheap, is light and small, but optically it is
considerably better than people give it credit for.  You have to spend a lot
to get better image quality.  It's not like the old 28-80 and 28-90 kit
lenses that Canon shipped with most of the film SLRs.  It is a lot better.

If you work around its limitations, rotate your polarizer or ND grad filter
after focussing, stop down a little, fix the CA with Adobe Camera Raw etc,
you can get very good pictures from the 18-55.  Unfortunately Canon charges
you extra for the hood for this lens.  Canon does put some good design into
the 18-55mm lens though.  It has a circular aperture and one aspheric
element. It also has a fairly large image circle compared to the other EF-S
lenses (except for the 60mm macro).  With a 12mm extension tube, I have
mounted it on a Canon Elan II film camera.  There is enough coverage above
20mm for the full frame.  Of course the coverage would be less without the
extension tube.  At 18mm the corners have visibly darkened on a film camera.
This may explain the fairly low light fall-off for this lens compared to
others.  I also like how it sort of self centers at 28mm (normal focal
length for the XT).  The 18-55 can suffer from bad ghosting flare if a UV
filter is fitted and there are point light sources within the frame or very
close to it.  It is important to remove the filter for these situations.

What you are paying for with your 24-105 mostly is a larger image circle,
better build materials and quality, weather sealing, much more glass (F/4 at
105mm needs a 26.25mm clear aperture compared to 9.82mm for f/5.6 at 55mm),
the image stabilizer ($$), internal focussing silent USM focussing motor,
metal lens mount, distance scale, larger range, included hood, 3 aspheric
elements, super UD glass, non-rotating front element etc.  These are all
good things and worth the money, but as you have seen, you didn't buy much
more sharpness.

The primary benefits of the 24-105 are in the convenience of use, larger
aperture from 31mm and above (the 18-55 is f/4 or better from 30 and below),
the image stabilizer which is fantastic and longer telephoto range.

The drawbacks to the 24-105mm are of course cost, weight, and size.

Don't get rid of your 18-55 yet.  It fits easily in a jacket pocket for when
you need a quick wide angle.

> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 16 lines]
>
> Anyway the two raw files in canon format are at www.ukbrown.net/rawtest
ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam - 23 Oct 2006 18:24 GMT
Nice to see people write a reasoned reply.  I don;t feel totally
disappointed as I did before and have to agree the build quality and overall
sturdiness is great and yes, i would definitely pay for IS again and would
not buy a lens without it unless I had the neck muscles of Tarzan to support
a 2.8 or below lens.
RichA - 25 Oct 2006 03:16 GMT
> If you zoom in on the UPC code label, you can see the number of pixels that
> the black bars fade to white over.  This is virtually identical between your
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to get better image quality.  It's not like the old 28-80 and 28-90 kit
> lenses that Canon shipped with most of the film SLRs.  It is a lot better.

It is a horrible lens.  This review seems to say it's good for the
money ($100) but the pictures clearly show otherwise.  You don't see
this radical a difference between any other mfgs entry level and pro
lenses.

http://photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/shootout
default - 25 Oct 2006 09:53 GMT
>> If you zoom in on the UPC code label, you can see the number of pixels
>> that
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> http://photo.net/equipment/canon/efs18-55/shootout

I don't trust that review.  It is very old, from the original 300D and the
original 18-55, but more importantly, the 24-70mm pictures show strong
sharpening halos and the 18-55mm images do not.  I suspect that they screwed
up and sharpened one set and not the other.  The differences would be
smaller then if both were processed the same.
Charles Schuler - 25 Oct 2006 23:13 GMT
> It is a horrible lens.  This review seems to say it's good for the
> money ($100) but the pictures clearly show otherwise.  You don't see
> this radical a difference between any other mfgs entry level and pro
> lenses.

Naw (hardly horrible), it is a cheap lens and most folks know that cheap
means compromised.  I own one, by the way.  Do you own one RichA, by the
way?
RichA - 26 Oct 2006 02:56 GMT
> > It is a horrible lens.  This review seems to say it's good for the
> > money ($100) but the pictures clearly show otherwise.  You don't see
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Naw (hardly horrible), it is a cheap lens and most folks know that cheap
> means compromised.  I own one, by the way.

My condolences.  No wonder you use L-glass.

Do you own one RichA, by the
> way?

Not unless it was the last DSLR lens on Earth.
Then it would be a toss-up between it and a body cap with a pin-hole
bored through it.
Tom Ross - 26 Oct 2006 04:37 GMT
>> > It is a horrible lens.  This review seems to say it's good for the
>> > money ($100) but the pictures clearly show otherwise.  You don't see
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
>Then it would be a toss-up between it and a body cap with a pin-hole
>bored through it.

And since body caps are made of plastic, I guess that's one more
camera you'll never buy.

TR
RichA - 26 Oct 2006 04:49 GMT
> >> > It is a horrible lens.  This review seems to say it's good for the
> >> > money ($100) but the pictures clearly show otherwise.  You don't see
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
> TR

Honestly, you can buy a Canon 20D now with the kit lens for just over
$800.00  You'd either have to be crazy to buy the XTi over it or in
desperate need of those extra pixels.  The quality and ergonomic
differences between the two bodies is astronomic.
.
Charles Schuler - 26 Oct 2006 22:54 GMT
> Honestly, you can buy a Canon 20D now with the kit lens for just over
> $800.00  You'd either have to be crazy to buy the XTi over it or in
> desperate need of those extra pixels.  The quality and ergonomic
> differences between the two bodies is astronomic.

Astronomic?  As billions and billions ala Carl Sagan?
ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam - 24 Oct 2006 22:03 GMT
On 22-Oct-2006, "ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam" <ukbrown@newsgroups.nospam>
wrote:

> difference to my eye does not warrant the expense that I paid for the L
> lens.  Can someone explain if there is more to it or am I just being
> paranoid.  To my mind the image is no sharper on the L lens.

Did a comparison test with another 24-105 lens, no better than mine and he
is very happy with his as it compares well with his other L lenses.  Thanks
for all the info and good advice here, much happier with my purchase now I
realise what I am paying the money for,  better quality at the extremes IS
and much better construction.

Regards
Jim - 26 Oct 2006 02:13 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Anyway the two raw files in canon format are at www.ukbrown.net/rawtest

Tough to tell at this resolution and magnification,.   First, you have
shot a close up with a very shallow depth of field.  So the eye gets
fooled.  There is a very small plan of sharpness with much out of focus
becauese ot he aperature and distance to subject.

If you want to do a sharpness test, use a copy stand and shoot a flat
subject with fine lines at close range. Light it well to remove all
effects of noise etc.  Keep the camera film (or sensor) absolutely
parellel to the subject. Hold the subject as flat as possible.  Use a
remote release and mirror lockup if available..   Only then do you
remove enough of the other variables to really see what the lens is
doing.

Don't shoot pictures like that all the time?  Then, I believe, your
conclusions are correct.  Many great photos were taken with lenses of
much less quality than even some of today's mediocre lenses.

Jim     <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo
 
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