Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2006
D70 to D80
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Bruce - 12 Oct 2006 01:32 GMT I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while.
Bruce
Paul Furman - 12 Oct 2006 01:51 GMT > I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one > done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. Can you see all the replies under this same thread title behind you? Search google > groups to see if not.
Briefly, the viewfinder is much better. Do yourself a drawing of the actual difference btwn 6MP & 10MP to see the difference; it is significant but not anywhere near 2x bigger. Keep in mind the different memory cards (and battery?).
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Bill - 12 Oct 2006 01:56 GMT >I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any >one done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. This has been discussed numerous times and reviewed on numerous websites. I suggest you read a reasonably honest and full review with details and then come back with more specific questions. Try this site for a review of the D80 with some comparisons to the D70s:
http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikond80/
Greg "_" - 12 Oct 2006 23:49 GMT > I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one > done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. > > Bruce I tested the two cameras side by side yesterday, the files from the D80 are bigger but not a lot more resolute. Using the same 18-70 lens there seems to be a little less noise at ISO 200 when using the D80. The camera has a lot of other features that should sell it but for resolution its not a big leap- imop.
I think this highlights in my my resolution being separate from MP's but very relative to Lens quality.
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Bill - 12 Oct 2006 23:53 GMT >> I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has >> any one [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > D80 > are bigger but not a lot more resolute. How did you test? There's a big difference between 6mp and 10mp in resolution, and all online tests I've read indicate there is a big jump in resolution.
While that increase may not be needed for many users, it certainly is there.
> Using the same 18-70 lens there > seems to be a little less noise at ISO 200 when using the D80. Try again at ISO 800 and 1600. Huge differences there make it worthwhile to switch if you need the high ISO.
> I think this highlights in my my resolution being separate from MP's > but very relative to Lens quality. Are you saying the 18-70 doesn't have enough resolving power for the 10mp sensor?
Harald Ljøen - 13 Oct 2006 14:21 GMT > How did you test? There's a big difference between 6mp and 10mp in > resolution, and all online tests I've read indicate there is a big > jump in resolution. The megapixel myth: http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm
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Bill - 13 Oct 2006 21:54 GMT >> How did you test? There's a big difference between 6mp and 10mp in >> resolution, and all online tests I've read indicate there is a big >> jump in resolution. > > The megapixel myth: > http://www.kenrockwell.com/tech/mpmyth.htm Be wary of what Rockwell says. If you don't need the extra megapixels for cropping or large prints, that's one thing. But to deny they make any difference at all is foolish (and Rockwell knows that, as I'll explain).
This is the same person who says at the beginning of the above article in question that you don't need anything more than 3mp for a 12x18 print, but at the very end contradicts himself and says you need 7.2mp to make an 8x10 print.
Top: "...3 MP camera pretty much looks the same as a 6 MP camera, even when blown up to 12 x18!""
Bottom: "...Ideally you'd like to print at 300 DPI to look sharp..." "...8x10 you need...2,400 x 3,000 pixels, or 7,200,000 pixels, or 7.2 megapixels."
Which of his claims is right?
We all know that megapixels don't mean much when making 4x6 prints just like Rockwell and everyone else suggests. And when making tiny crops to post on websites it also won't matter very much. And I agree.
But where it does matter is large prints or when cropping and printing.
Let's take his own cropped example right from the same page (3MPcropped5x.jpg) which is 288x216 pixels and 54.7KB filesize. At about a 2x3 inch print or a small image on a monitor, it looks good because it's at its native resolution (it's a 288x216 chunk from the 3mp image). But of course if you print it at 4x6 it starts to show a fairly noticeable drop in quality because there are not enough pixels. At 8x10 or full size on a 17" monitor it looks horrible, but you can try to tell yourself it looks good.
Granted, that's an extreme print example, but it's what Rockwell claims looks good and uses as proof that megapixels doesn't matter (by the way he uses 10mp cameras). So where are the 6, 8, and 10mp images of the same shot with similar crops to compare?
Now for many casual shooters, they may not need more than a few megapixels to capture the dog chasing its tail, or the kids running around the yard, or those 4x6 prints of the vacation to Disneyworld, and they may never make enlargements. That's why small P&S cameras are so popular and Rockwell is right about that kind of usage.
But if you buy a DSLR like the subject line says, chances are good you intend to do more than just take snapshots of the family pet. And that's where good lenses, good technique, and enough megapixels will make a difference for crops or large prints.
Having said that, I'm content with 6-8mp cameras and have no strong desire to move up to 10mp. It's the other benefits of the D80 that would interest me like the better viewfinder, larger LCD, faster response, and the extra custom functions and features.
Greg "_" - 13 Oct 2006 23:26 GMT > But if you buy a DSLR like the subject line says, chances are good you > intend to do more than just take snapshots of the family pet. And [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > would interest me like the better viewfinder, larger LCD, faster > response, and the extra custom functions and features. Exactly, it was somewhat a revelation to finally be able to do the test, free charge (I borrowed the D80). I've been fretting about what MP range I needed to get a better ending image, fact is your assessments in terms of good versus bad lens and technique , as well as desired end output size puts it all into a nice concise package. Since I routinely print 16x20 from 4x5.....I probably won't be content until I can do that straight from the camera :(
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Harald Ljøen - 15 Oct 2006 18:16 GMT > Be wary of what Rockwell says. If you don't need the extra megapixels > for cropping or large prints, that's one thing. But to deny they make > any difference at all is foolish (and Rockwell knows that, as I'll > explain). I cannot see that he claims anything like that.
His main point, which I believe is valid, is that the *linear* resolution is what matters, not the pixel count. You need to *quadruple* the pixel count in order to *double* the linear resolution.
This means that 10 MP isn't 1,7 times better than 6 MP as you might first think, but rather the squre root of 1,7, which is 1,3. So you don't get 70% improvement, but rather 30% by going from 6 to 10 MP.
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Alan Browne - 15 Oct 2006 18:42 GMT >>Be wary of what Rockwell says. If you don't need the extra megapixels >>for cropping or large prints, that's one thing. But to deny they make [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > first think, but rather the squre root of 1,7, which is 1,3. So you > don't get 70% improvement, but rather 30% by going from 6 to 10 MP. Which is why a jump from 8 Mpix to 10 Mpix is not very attractive (10%), but a jump from 6 Mpix to 10 (30%) is attractive _enough_.
Cheers, Alan
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Greg "_" - 13 Oct 2006 23:14 GMT > >> I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has > >> any one [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > Are you saying the 18-70 doesn't have enough resolving power for the > 10mp sensor? They are 300 dpi files, therefore not more resolute, except in terms of noise suppression. At 200 ISO the the D80 using the same 18-70 lens I use on my D70 is not stupendously sharper at any given point. That is if you clip a 5x7 from either cameras file and compare them. No one I showed the printed clips to using an Epson R1800 could tell which camera produced either file. Of course the D80 image appears closer to the subject because its producing a larger dimensional file but at 100% it is not more resolute. Now if you are willing to down sample every D80 file to the 6.667 x 10.6 file size of the D70 the D80 will probably win. I did this as well and it does produce very nice 5x7's when down sampled from the original dimensions :)
Like I stated the D80 has the D70 beat for noise at 200 ISO. The features the D80 has, are to me worth the cost difference, for someone starting out new to digital the D70 maybe a very good starting point still. I have yet to decide my next course of action, considering a D200 (I Like that vertical grip-as on my film F100),
or perhaps coughing (yes yacking up) the $$$ for the D2Xs or just wait to see what comes next (Most likely).
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Bruce - 13 Oct 2006 10:04 GMT Thanks for your comments Greg. Although I have read many reviews on the D80 I wanted to hear the opinion of some one who had the opportunity to use them side by side.I find that some of the reviews show the images at great magnification & I do understand the reason for this , but for daily use is there a noticeable difference.
I have enquired about the cost and at £600 for the body only it seems good value but if you own a D70 (for which I was offered £150 part exchange) is it worth ending up with two DSLR. I am also curious about the practical difference in the DX processing of the image over the one used in the D70.It seems that most people use something like Nikons Capture 4 then Photoshop anyway so is the extra £600 cost worth it to me at the moment, I think not.Although when I come to replace the D70 I will probably buy the D80.
Bruce
>> I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one >> done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > I think this highlights in my my resolution being separate from MP's > but very relative to Lens quality. DD - 13 Oct 2006 09:46 GMT > I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one > done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. > > Bruce Depends on what you are looking for in a camera and what compromises you are prepared to make. It definitely won't make you a better photographer, but it will make your photography a little easier.
Read this: http://www.nikongear.com/v3_Nikon_D80.htm
cjcampbell - 13 Oct 2006 09:57 GMT > I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one > done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. I upgraded to the D200, which has the same size sensor. The difference in resolution was significant for me only when I crop off a significant portion of the frame, but then it is sometimes critical. According to reviews, the D80 has the least noise of any camera produced by Nikon.
You would have to throw out all your old CF memory cards, because the D80 uses only SD cards.
Nigel Cummings - 13 Oct 2006 17:13 GMT I bought a D80 and intended to use it alongside my D70s. I'm afraid to say though I shall be selling the D70s ASAP.
The D80 is faster, has a much brighter and bigger viewfinder, and the image noise at high ISO settings is much smoother and more film like than the D70 series can achieve.I just cant bring myself to use the D70s now
I was a bit trepidacious about having to change to a new storage format, but here in the UK, you can get 2GB SD cards for around £25, so its not so bad.
The improved resolution is noticeable when I print to A3, a jump from 6MP to 10Mp may seem huge, but the resolution increase actually equates to only 29%, but it is noticeable nevertheless.
The D80 has a pretty good monchrome setting too, with built in digital filters which can make for really dramatic images - I'd definitely check the D80 out, its a very good camera from Nikon for the money.
>I have a D70 & I am wondering if I should upgrade to the D80. Has any one >done this and if so what improvements are considered worth while. > > Bruce Greg "_" - 13 Oct 2006 23:20 GMT > I bought a D80 and intended to use it alongside my D70s. I'm afraid to say > though I shall be selling the D70s ASAP. [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > > > > Bruce Those sound like reasons I can relate to, I question the "film like part though---aren't these supposed to be better ;^)
 Signature Reality-Is finding that perfect picture and never looking back.
www.gregblankphoto.com
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