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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2006

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Navy Retirement

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nascar20fan@nascar.com - 11 Oct 2006 05:34 GMT
I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
considered this before, but the command photographer has transferred
and he has no one else, as it is a really small base. I told him I
would do it, with the understanding I am doing it as a friend and not
a professional, and he agreed. I have done plenty of indor photos, but
am still in the process of learning the manual settings on my SLR, as
I just moved up from P&S a few months ago. Any advice you can provide
in this matter would be greatly appreciated, as far as camera
settings, etc.

The ceremony will be inside a large room, it is fairly well li, and I
will be approximately 20 to 30 feet from where the participants are
standing. The room itself is white, and right now it looks like the
uniform of choice will more then likely be white as well (not ideal, I
know).

I will using a Canon Rebel XT, with the Speedlite 220EX flash (I know
it isn't the greatest, but it was in my budget when I got it.
I have three lenses that would work, Just wanted to get your opinion
here as well, they are as follows:
Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS (this is the one I am leaning toawards,
    as it will provide a little more reach)
Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 DR DI LD IF
and the other is
Tamron AF 28-105mm f/4-5.6

Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks ahead of time.
Pete D - 11 Oct 2006 06:01 GMT
Get in there before the ceremony, day before or whatever and do some
practicing and adjust as needed.

>I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks ahead of time.
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:08 GMT
Probably the earliest I would be able to get there would be a few
hours prior tothe ceremony. I am familiar with the room it will be
held in, as it was where my retirement ceremony was a little over a
year ago.

>Get in there before the ceremony, day before or whatever and do some
>practicing and adjust as needed.
[quoted text clipped - 28 lines]
>> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
>> Thanks ahead of time.
Mike Fields - 11 Oct 2006 06:28 GMT
One thing to watch for (I have shot myself in the foot before
with this one) is what lights do they have in the room.
The only thing worse than having to color correct your
pix for the room lights is to have pix that are partially
correct for color balance from your flash and the other
parts are not completely illuminated by the strobe have
the color cast of the room lights.  Almost impossible to
fix that one.  Yech !!

As others have suggested, take someone dressed in similar
colors to the room before and experiment to see how your
system works and how the colors look.  I would also
consider bumping the ISO up on the camera - as someone
else said the other day, "I would rather have sharp pix with
a little noise than no noise and blurry from motion etc".

Spare batteries for both the camera and flash.

You might want to wander around Ken Rockwell's site
and see if any of his articles help -- he has a bunch of
good stuff there.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/

Hope some of this proves useful to your task.  Good luck.

mikey

>I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks ahead of time.
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:10 GMT
Last time I talked with him he said it was going to be the Chokers
that the Navy Chiefs wear. This would put it white on a white back
ground. I was hoping it would be in dress blues, which would have made
it easier. As for ISO I was considering bumping it up to maybe 400, I
usually use 100 or 200. I was considering 400 due to the movements as
you said. I am hoping that will be enough, or I could go up to 800 if
needed.

>One thing to watch for (I have shot myself in the foot before
>with this one) is what lights do they have in the room.
[quoted text clipped - 52 lines]
>> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
>> Thanks ahead of time.
DD - 11 Oct 2006 06:46 GMT
> I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks ahead of time.

Use the fastest aperture lens and bounce your flash off the ceiling
wherever possible. Alternatively get some white cardboard, cut out a
paddle shape and use a rubber band to attach it to your flash. Bounce
the light out of that.

With Canon, use your FEL (*) button, but don't rely on it too much.

Shoot in RAW.

Don't stand too far away from the subjects. Get as close as you can
without invading their personal space.

Carry lots of spare AA batteries for your flash.

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nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:12 GMT
>> I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
>> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>
>Carry lots of spare AA batteries for your flash.

I am playing with RAW now, seeing if I can get it down before the
actual day. I have a little time to play with it, as the ceremony is
in the first part of December. Ultmately I would like to use no flash,
but not sure how that would be.
JC Dill - 12 Oct 2006 15:36 GMT
>I have a little time to play with it, as the ceremony is
>in the first part of December.

See if you can arrange to take photos for some other event in the same
room between now and December so that you can practice shooting in the
room in "real world" conditions (actual event lighting, room full of
people, etc.) before your friend's retirement ceremony.

Meter on a gray card, take a white balance reading on a gray card, set
the exposure manually and use custom white balance.  This will give
you pleasing skin tones and white whites.  Do NOT meter on a white
shirt - it may have a slight blue or yellow cast and throw your skin
tones off.

jc

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nascar20fan@nascar.com - 13 Oct 2006 03:54 GMT
>>I have a little time to play with it, as the ceremony is
>>in the first part of December.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>jc

That will be the earliest. I will do one for the local Scout troop
here when my son advances (I done the last one) and the room is
similiar in lighting, although smaller. They came out ok last time,
but nothing to brag about, so hopefully better this time.

I give it a try for the white balance. Been wanting to play with that
anyway. Was going to try it differently, but will give it a shot the
way you described. Thanks for the information.
POHB - 11 Oct 2006 08:17 GMT
> I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
> Retirement Ceremony.

Is it on a military facility?  If so, make sure you have permission to
take pictures,
in writing,
in triplicate,
in blood.
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:13 GMT
>> I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
>> Retirement Ceremony.
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>in triplicate,
>in blood.

It is a military facility, but the building the ceremony is in will be
off the base itself, as it is the Welfare and Recreation building.
Photos will be no problem there the day of te ceremony.
David J Taylor - 11 Oct 2006 08:24 GMT
> I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> in this matter would be greatly appreciated, as far as camera
> settings, etc.

In addition to the advice already given:

- be careful with exposure - white uniforms may easily overload the
highlights so setting the auto exposure down 1/3 or 2/3 stops may be an
idea.  Try to check in advance.

- don't fiddle with changing lenses all the time.

- get someone to take pictures with the P&S as well, just in case.

David
Paul Furman - 11 Oct 2006 14:37 GMT
>>I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
>>Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> highlights so setting the auto exposure down 1/3 or 2/3 stops may be an
> idea.

The meter will try to make those whites gray, so I'd suggest the
opposite: set the exposure compensation to +(something) or spot meter on
the faces, or meter on the palm of your hand and lock those settings
into manual mode. Perhaps there is time before as people assemble to
experiment & study the results. If the preview is set to blinking blown
highlights, go ahead & get a bit of blinking rather than let the face go
into shadow, even if that means raising the ISO setting. You can darken
later but lightening will add noise.

The IS lens is probably a good idea if you don't want to fiddle with a
tripod, check to be sure people's movement isn't causing blur though.
The f/2.8 lens would be handy for the portrait type shots where you want
shallow depth of field at 2.8 and less distracting background, versus
group shots where you want everyone's face in focus (perhaps the more
likely scenario). The longer 135 zoom can also be used to get soft
background portraits if you step outside with some distant leaves in the
background. If you can afford shallow DOF, the 2.8 lens gathers more
light & needs less ISO boost. Just some ideas.

> Try to check in advance.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>
> David

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David J Taylor - 11 Oct 2006 15:42 GMT
[]
>> In addition to the advice already given:
>>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> than let the face go into shadow, even if that means raising the ISO
> setting. You can darken later but lightening will add noise.

My suggestion is based on their being a small amount of white, with a
large amount of dark (i.e. not so well lit) areas.  Testing first is
certainly advisable, as I said.

David
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:33 GMT
>[]
>>> In addition to the advice already given:
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
>
>David

The room is well lit, the lighting is provided with fluriscent (never
mind spelling) lights. I do have the photos form my ceremony, and plan
to go back through them again and get some ideas from them. I wish the
photography that was there when I retired was still there, but he
transferred and won't be relaced due to cut backs.
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:19 GMT
>>>I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
>>>Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
>>
>> David

Ultimately I would like to use the 2.8 lens, but like you said I want
to get other faces in focus, too, as the other speakers will be seated
behind the podium. Plus the 28-135 will give a little more rach. A
tripod will be pretty much out of the question, as I will have to move
to deifferent locations to catch the different part of the ceremony.
The awards will be off to the side of the podium, and the passing of
the flag will be down the isle between the seats where the guests are.
The I need to move out of the room to catch him as he leaves the room
with his family.
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:15 GMT
>> I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
>> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>
>David

 

Apreciate the advise on the white uniforms, I had not thought of
setting the exposure down some. Not wanting to change lenses a lot is
why I was leaning towards the 28-135, plus it has the IS. My wife will
more then likely be there as well, and she will be using her P&S as
well.
J. Clarke - 11 Oct 2006 13:59 GMT
>I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 25 lines]
> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks ahead of time.

Get access to the room ahead of time and do a pre-shoot--a "shoot before the
shoot".  Shoot some test shots of someone in the uniform that will be
worn--from what you're saying it sounds like service dress blue, which is
mostly black, so contrasts will be an issue--run through a range of
exposures and examine the results later to see what seems optimal.  Make
sure that your test subject goes through some typical movements--"for
photographic test purposes only, hand salute" is likely to be the fastest
movement unless someone trips, make sure you can get that (the salute, not
the trip) without motion blur.  The 28-135 would be my first choice shooting
handheld because of the image stabilization, but make _sure_ that it is fast
enough to stop motion blur--if not the 28-75 2.8 would be the right choice
among the lenses you listed.  If you're not shooting RAW then check your
white balance beforehand and make sure it's coming out right in the
prints--ideally use the "custom" setting with a white uniform shirt as the
reference.  If you've not used custom white balance before then practice
setting it a few times until you're comfortable doing it, and once you are
wait a few days if you have the time to do so and practice it again (it's
surprising how much the second practice helps retention of skills).

If you're at all unsure of the exposure at any point then set up autobracket
and bracket the exposures--if you've not done that before you should also
practice that, including shooting a few shots just before the ceremony
starts--with a Canon DSLR you have to hold the shutter for the three
bracketing shots and it takes a little practice to always hit three and
never two or four and if you're like me if you haven't done it in a while it
will take a few shots for the timing to come back.

In a large room, unless you've got enough flash to illuminate the whole
place try to avoid it if you can, and if you do have to use it, as someone
else pointed out, make sure that it doesn't clash with the white balance of
the room lighting.  These are things to test in your pre-shoot.

Make sure your battery is fully charged and make sure you have enough
storage (and make sure you have it on your person and know _where_ on your
person--you don't want to have to rummage in your bag or turn out your
pockets for it).  Filling up the CF in the middle of a shoot and not having
another can ruin your whole day.

If possible, dry run the whole ceremony (you don't need the actual people
who will be there, just someone who knows what to expect and some stand-ins)
so that you have an idea what is coming and aren't out of position for
critical shots.

Someone suggested shooting RAW--if you're used to shooting RAW and have the
tools and skills to work with it then this is sound advice, if you're not
and you don't then something that is a once-in-a-lifetime event and
important to the participants is not IMO the place to learn.

Find out what other photographers if any will be there (for example will
there be a stringer from the newspaper or a TV crew?) and make sure you
don't all trip over each other.
nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:28 GMT
>>I have been asked by a friend of mine if I would photograph his Navy
>> Retirement Ceremony. I am a complete amateur and have never even
[quoted text clipped - 44 lines]
>wait a few days if you have the time to do so and practice it again (it's
>surprising how much the second practice helps retention of skills).

I would like to be able to practice but I live 5 hours away, and my
schedule doesn't permit me to get there during the week, which would
be the only opportunity to get into the room.

>If you're at all unsure of the exposure at any point then set up autobracket
>and bracket the exposures--if you've not done that before you should also
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>pockets for it).  Filling up the CF in the middle of a shoot and not having
>another can ruin your whole day.

I have been considerieng ourchasing a second battery, or the battery
grip for the camera. Pretty sure I have enough memory. I will start
out with a 2 gig card, then I have a 1 gig and 2 512's as wll.

>If possible, dry run the whole ceremony (you don't need the actual people
>who will be there, just someone who knows what to expect and some stand-ins)
>so that you have an idea what is coming and aren't out of position for
>critical shots.

Wish I could. There might be a practice that morning, but other then
that I will have him send me a copy of the program and go over it,
plus it will be a lot like mine was, so I am fairly familiar with the
steps and the order. At least I got that part covered with no
problems. I am also going to go back through my photo from mine and
will see the steps in order in them as well.

>Someone suggested shooting RAW--if you're used to shooting RAW and have the
>tools and skills to work with it then this is sound advice, if you're not
>and you don't then something that is a once-in-a-lifetime event and
>important to the participants is not IMO the place to learn.

I am playing with RAW now, and hope to have it down prior to so I can
use it. I have Photo Shop ELements 4 on my desktop and laptop, so
working with tthem will be no problems.

>Find out what other photographers if any will be there (for example will
>there be a stringer from the newspaper or a TV crew?) and make sure you
>don't all trip over each other.

I will probably be the only one there that will be moving around.
Others will be seated, unless they are a participant in the ceremony
itself.
Ray Fischer - 11 Oct 2006 19:08 GMT
>The ceremony will be inside a large room, it is fairly well li, and I
>will be approximately 20 to 30 feet from where the participants are
>standing.

You'll want shots from the waist up, mostly, for your friend and some
wider shots for the setting.  That means telephoto and normal-wide.
Probably the 28-135mm would be a good choice.

> The room itself is white, and right now it looks like the
>uniform of choice will more then likely be white as well (not ideal, I
>know).

That doesn't actually matter.  With fixed lighting you can set the
camera to manual exposure and not worry about metering.  Try a couple
of shots early on to set the exposure using the histogram display and
then leave it set until you go outdoors.

Of course, if the room has dark spots then you'll have a harder time
of it.  You can try using RAW to get a little more exposure latitude.

>I will using a Canon Rebel XT, with the Speedlite 220EX flash (I know
>it isn't the greatest, but it was in my budget when I got it.

Forget the flash if you can.  It doesn't allow bounce and I dislike
the flash look.  Of course, a flash look is better than no shot at
all.

>I have three lenses that would work, Just wanted to get your opinion
>here as well, they are as follows:
>Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS (this is the one I am leaning toawards,
>    as it will provide a little more reach)

Too bad it's slow.

>Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 DR DI LD IF

That would be good for the closer shots as it's a faster lens.

>and the other is
>Tamron AF 28-105mm f/4-5.6

Don't bother.

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rfischer@sonic.net

nascar20fan@nascar.com - 12 Oct 2006 05:34 GMT
>>The ceremony will be inside a large room, it is fairly well li, and I
>>will be approximately 20 to 30 feet from where the participants are
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>wider shots for the setting.  That means telephoto and normal-wide.
>Probably the 28-135mm would be a good choice.

As they are speaking they will be behind a podium, with the other
speakers seated behind them.

>> The room itself is white, and right now it looks like the
>>uniform of choice will more then likely be white as well (not ideal, I
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>of shots early on to set the exposure using the histogram display and
>then leave it set until you go outdoors.

The lighting in the room is fluriscent (never mind spelling), and it
is well lit.

>Of course, if the room has dark spots then you'll have a harder time
>of it.  You can try using RAW to get a little more exposure latitude.

I hope to have a far better understanding of RAW files prior to and be
able to use it. I am still experimting. My kids are getting tired of
me taking there photos, as I learn, and I think the dog is too ashe
has gotten to where he gets up and leaves the room when I get the
camera out now.

>>I will using a Canon Rebel XT, with the Speedlite 220EX flash (I know
>>it isn't the greatest, but it was in my budget when I got it.
>
>Forget the flash if you can.  It doesn't allow bounce and I dislike
>the flash look.  Of course, a flash look is better than no shot at
>all.

I possible I would rather not use the flash for that reason, but will
hav eit incase it is needed.

>>I have three lenses that would work, Just wanted to get your opinion
>>here as well, they are as follows:
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
>Don't bother.

Agree with you on the leasons. I wish the 28-75 2.8 had a little
longer reach and I would use it instead of the other, but I think the
IS on the 28-135 might help some as well.
Alan Browne - 14 Oct 2006 15:28 GMT
> I will using a Canon Rebel XT, with the Speedlite 220EX flash (I know
> it isn't the greatest, but it was in my budget when I got it.
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Any advice anyone may have on this would be greatly appreciated.
> Thanks ahead of time.

To me this situation requires:

1) Get in there and chimp your way to the correct flash and aperture
setting.
2) Set that aperture manually (f/5.6 to f/8) and leave it alone.
3) Leave the flash in TTL metering (but you may need flash comp).

In these settings as you change composition, the metering will reflect
the one drawback of TTL metering: it sets according to what it's pointed
at for each image.  In a "set" situation letting the AE set differnet
exposures for each frame results in a very inconsistent look across the
set of images.

With a lot of white uniforms, the camera will tend towards underexposure
by as much as two stops.  So, don't be surprised if you need +1.7 to +2
exp comp to get the exposure right.  It is hard to evaluate blown
highlights (white uniform areas devoid any of texture) using the camera
monitor.  Zoom in and pay attention to where the camera indicates blown
highlights.  (A few spots of blown highlights are okay).

Why manual?  Becasue once you do find that right setting, the next goal
is consistency across the set of images.  If you set that aperture right
and leave the shutter speed alone you will get consistency in exposure
that will make editing and selecting much, much, easier.

Since your flash is relatively low GN, shoot at ISO 400 to give your
flash a chance.  If the ceiling is white and at a height that allows you
to bounce off of it, that will soften the light on subject and eliminate
harsh, hard shaddows in the BG.  At the distance you mention, however,
this might not be possible.  Borrow or rent a higher power flash for the
bounce might be a way.

If you have enough memory, shoot RAW.  This will give you the best
dynamic range for possible corrections post event.

As for autofocus, be carefull if there is not a lot of contrast in the
focus sensor and if the light level is low.  Consider manual focus if
the chimping reveals a lot of missed focus shots.

Cheers,
Alan

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nascar20fan@nascar.com - 14 Oct 2006 23:58 GMT
>> I will using a Canon Rebel XT, with the Speedlite 220EX flash (I know
>> it isn't the greatest, but it was in my budget when I got it.
[quoted text clipped - 50 lines]
>Cheers,
>Alan

Appreciate all the good advise. A lot of information. I'll be sure to
puti t all to use. I was aso considering another flash as well. I was
considering taking the plunge for the 580EX, as I'm sure this would be
the better flash.  I had considering purchasing a third party flash to
save a litttle, but decided I want to try to stick with all Canon
products from here on out, to prevent any issues when I upgrade the
camera later. Pretty sure I'll have enough memory, I currently have a
2 gig, a 1 gig, and 2 512 cards. I think the 2 and 1 gig cards will
probably do it, with the 512s there if needed.

Again I appreciate the advice.
 
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