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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2006

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D200 CHA Error

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Jon Nadelberg - 28 Sep 2006 13:05 GMT
Ok, this is a weird thing, and Nikon doesn't know what it is.

I just got a new D200, and put in my sandisk extreme III 4gb card.

I got the CHA error.  Assuming that the card was bad, I then got another
card.  Same thing.  I tried another brand, same thing.

So, maybe the camera is bad.  I go to the camera store.  Same thing happens.

With 4 D200s, and a D70s.  The D70s and one of the D200s was working OK
earlier in the evening.

Now, none of them can read ANY CF card!  The people at the store don't
know what this is, they've never seen it.  The people at Nikon don't
know what it is, either.

Oh, the original card works on my PC, and works in a Canon camera.

Does anyone have any ideas about this?  Can somehow a CF card that has
some kind of problem that only manifests on Nikon cameras affect the
camera itself, and then affect cards afterwards?  We did not put the
original bad (well, maybe it is bad, no idea) CF card in other cameras,
and they also were getting the CHA error.

What on Earth are we doing wrong?  Is there some super secret thing you
can do to reset the camera to factory settings?  IS there something you
need to do besides putting the CF card in the slot, closing the door,
and turning it on?

I've tried formatting the card on my PC with FAT and FAT32.  I've also
formatted the card on the camera, as well.  With both the dual button
press and the menu.  I've also tried to reset the camera with the dual
green button press as well.

Obviously something is going on here that is fundamental and we're
missing.  Any suggestions?

Thanks.
Bill - 28 Sep 2006 15:52 GMT
> Ok, this is a weird thing, and Nikon doesn't know what it is.

I don't know who you talked to at Nikon, but it wasn't anyone with a
brain. Nikon should know, since it's listed in the manual of at least
some of their cameras under troubleshooting.

The CHA error means the camera can't communcate with the card. The
controller in the card is producing an incompatibility error and the
camera can not read/write to the controller. This can happen due to
several reasons.

> I've tried formatting the card on my PC with FAT and FAT32.  I've
> also formatted the card on the camera, as well.  With both the dual
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> Obviously something is going on here that is fundamental and we're
> missing.  Any suggestions?

There's a reason camera manufacturers recommend formatting IN THE
CAMERA and not the computer or card reader. If the wrong file format
for the card is used, the camera can't communicate with the flash card
memory controller and you get the CHA error. This also happens if data
is corrupted in the card, or if the card fails.

Presuming the cards controller isn't toast, format the card on your
computer using FAT - do not use FAT32. The max capacity will only be
2gig, but you should be able to format the card in your camera at that
point, and it should restore it to regular capacity.
Jon Nadelberg - 28 Sep 2006 19:05 GMT
>> Ok, this is a weird thing, and Nikon doesn't know what it is.
>
> I don't know who you talked to at Nikon, but it wasn't anyone with a
> brain. Nikon should know, since it's listed in the manual of at least
> some of their cameras under troubleshooting.

I've solved the problem, actually.  I got all new stuff and restarted
from scratch.  That seems to have worked.

Hopefully that won't have to be my solution for every problem!

The card was doing something to the cameras.  There is no other
explanation.  But only the Nikons.  Canon worked ok, as did the PC....

Oh well.  Thank you for responding, though!  Much appreciated.
Bill - 28 Sep 2006 21:27 GMT
>>> Ok, this is a weird thing, and Nikon doesn't know what it is.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> I've solved the problem, actually.  I got all new stuff and
> restarted from scratch.  That seems to have worked.

Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next time
you might be in the middle of a shoot when you slap in the CF card and
discover you can't use it.

I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.

> The card was doing something to the cameras.  There is no other
> explanation.  But only the Nikons.  Canon worked ok, as did the
> PC....

The card was not damaging the cameras. It merely confuses them and a
reset clears it. Once a properly formatted card is inserted, they
function fine.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 28 Sep 2006 22:38 GMT
>> I've solved the problem, actually.  I got all new stuff and
>> restarted from scratch.  That seems to have worked.
>
> Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next time
> you might be in the middle of a shoot when you slap in the CF card and
> discover you can't use it.

Totally baseless nonsense!  I've formatted many CFs via computer and put
them in the old Nikon D2x, D200, and D70 without any adverse affects.  Sure,
we all agree that it's best to format in-camera, but it's not going to
create any incompatibility issues.

> I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.

Why?  I even spit in the eye of all the naysayer that claim you shouldn't
delete your images via computer and I don't format every time I put the card
back in the camera to erase images either.  Next old wive's tale?

Rita
Bill - 28 Sep 2006 23:21 GMT
>>> I've solved the problem, actually.  I got all new stuff and
>>> restarted from scratch.  That seems to have worked.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Totally baseless nonsense!

Of course, that's why I made it all up...it was a joke, no facts, no
backup, nothing at all. In fact, the CHA error doesn't exist and Nikon
put it in their user manuals to fool you.

Yeah...yeah...that's the ticket!

>  I've formatted many CFs via computer and put
> them in the old Nikon D2x, D200, and D70 without any adverse
> affects.  Sure,

I'd guess they were all 2gig or smaller cards where the default file
system is FAT. This issue doesn't usually happen on those cards,
unless the file allocation table is corrupt from some event like a
sudden power loss (battery or AC power loss).

The +2gig cards need to use FAT32, and for some reason the format on
the computer doesn't always agree with the camera interface. It's
probably a buffer capacity issue where older cameras have support for
FAT32 but only to a certain point. I'd guess a relatively large
20-32gig card wouldn't work beyond a fixed gigabyte limit, perhaps
about 8gigs(?), but I don't have specific data on that.

> we all agree that it's best to format in-camera, but it's not going
> to
> create any incompatibility issues.

If it's nonsense, why do you agree that formating in-camera is better?

:-/
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 28 Sep 2006 23:42 GMT
>>> Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next time
>>> you might be in the middle of a shoot when you slap in the CF card
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> backup, nothing at all. In fact, the CHA error doesn't exist and Nikon
> put it in their user manuals to fool you.

Who said the CHA error doesn't exist?

The nonsense is your statement that formatting a CF in computer will ruin
the card.  This is like saying you can't format a HD for Linux if Windows
was used first.

The issue here is he had a bad CF.  Sandisk had a bad run on these.  Google
it to see.  This is why Lexar is #1 for CFs.

>> we all agree that it's best to format in-camera, but it's not going
>> to
>> create any incompatibility issues.
>
> If it's nonsense, why do you agree that formatting in-camera is better?

Because it's the consensus of this newsgroup.  We've had this lengthily
discussion about this in the past.  This doesn't mean that formatting in
camera is *REALLY* best, it just pacifies the natives that don't know any
better.

Rita
Bill - 29 Sep 2006 00:25 GMT
>>>> Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next
>>>> time
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>
> Who said the CHA error doesn't exist?

Try this:

http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?sarcasm

> The nonsense is your statement that formatting a CF in computer will
> ruin
> the card.

I didn't say anything of the sort.

I said the system gets confused, but a simple re-format in the correct
file system fixes it and the card is still good to go. The easiest way
to ensure this doesn't happen is to format the card in the specific
camera where it will be used.

While manufacturers will sometimes recommend things that are silly to
an knowledgeable person (like user sensor cleaning), this is one of
the things that makes some sense.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 29 Sep 2006 00:38 GMT
>> The nonsense is your statement that formatting a CF in computer will
>> ruin
>> the card.
>
> I didn't say anything of the sort.

OK, maybe not in them exact words.  It was your comment "Until you format in
the reader and screw it up again. The next time you might be in the middle
of a shoot when you slap in the CF card and discover you can't use it." to
his response that he got all new hardware from the dealer that made me think
it as such.  Same difference, I guess.

> I said the system gets confused, but a simple re-format in the correct
> file system fixes it and the card is still good to go. The easiest way
> to ensure this doesn't happen is to format the card in the specific
> camera where it will be used.

I must have missed this.

> While manufacturers will sometimes recommend things that are silly to
> an knowledgeable person (like user sensor cleaning), this is one of
> the things that makes some sense.

Sensor cleaning is easy.

http://www.geocities.com/ritaberk2006/sensor.htm

Rita
G.T. - 29 Sep 2006 06:15 GMT
>>>> Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next time
>>>> you might be in the middle of a shoot when you slap in the CF card
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> the card.  This is like saying you can't format a HD for Linux if Windows
> was used first.

No, it's not.  It's saying you don't format a HD in Linux if you're
going to use it with Windows.

Greg

Signature

"All my time I spent in heaven
Revelries of dance and wine
Waking to the sound of laughter
Up I'd rise and kiss the sky" - The Mekons

RichA - 30 Sep 2006 22:47 GMT
>>>> Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next time
>>>> you might be in the middle of a shoot when you slap in the CF card
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
>The issue here is he had a bad CF.  Sandisk had a bad run on these.  Google
>it to see.  This is why Lexar is #1 for CFs.

Which is why they're running full page ads in magazines to overcome
the bad press they got as a result of not working in Canons a while
back?  Anyone remember that?
Jon Nadelberg - 02 Oct 2006 17:00 GMT
>>>>> Until you format in the reader and screw it up again. The next time
>>>>> you might be in the middle of a shoot when you slap in the CF card
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> back?  Anyone remember that?
>  

Well, it turns out it was a bad CF card from Sandisk.  I got a call from
a store I was dealing with saying that it appears that the card was
slightly bending a pin in the camera, and while it would work in other
systems, in the Nikon, it was enough to make it not work.

That's what he said, anyway.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 02 Oct 2006 23:01 GMT
> Well, it turns out it was a bad CF card from Sandisk.  I got a call
> from a store I was dealing with saying that it appears that the card
> was slightly bending a pin in the camera, and while it would work in
> other systems, in the Nikon, it was enough to make it not work.

I'm glad you got it straightened out.  I know Sandisk cards have been a
nightmare for consumers since they don't adhere to high QA standards.  It's
best to avoid them altogether and stick with Lexar.

Rita
Bill - 03 Oct 2006 00:45 GMT
"Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote in message

> I'm glad you got it straightened out.  I know Sandisk cards have
> been a
> nightmare for consumers since they don't adhere to high QA
> standards.  It's
> best to avoid them altogether and stick with Lexar.

So...um...just curious...how much commission do you get shilling for
Le#ar?

Cuz I'm looking for an alternate income myself and I figure you must
make a good buck with all the bullshit you spew about Le#ar. What are
we talking about, 0.01 on every shill?

:-)
Jon Nadelberg - 29 Sep 2006 00:45 GMT
>>> I've solved the problem, actually.  I got all new stuff and
>>> restarted from scratch.  That seems to have worked.
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> card
> back in the camera to erase images either.  Next old wive's tale?

The thing is that I formatted the card on the PC as a last resort.
Really, I had run out of options, and tried that as a method of maybe
making the thing work.  After formatting on the PC, and it not working,
I then went and formatted in the camera.  It still didn't work.

The camera store took everything back and gave me all new stuff.  I have
no idea what was wrong, it's just so weird.  My guess at this time is
that the card was messed up and it somehow affected the cameras.  In
some way.  I don't know.

In the meantime, I have now run through the install process on the
camera.  Wow, is this great.  I had an N90s before, and this is really
fantastic.

I really like the banks of settings.  Is there a web page someplace that
duplicates various types of film without me having to experiment?  For
example, if I wanted to create a Velvia group of settings, has someone
figured that out someplace, and I can just enter them in and keep them
for when I want to create photos with those settings?

My only problem is that I know in a couple of years that this camera is
going to be obsolete, meanwhile, my n90s is perfectly functional and
totally usable.  Kind of a bummer, but I think that it pretty much does
everything I could want it to do already.  The only thing left would be
maybe a full 35mm sensor, but I kind of like the idea of all my longer
lenses being 1.5x longer now.  I bought the 12-24 lens to replace the
17-35 I use pretty much always for now.  I'd get the 18-300 lens too,
but I just don't need it, as I have similar lenses already.

Another thing, I guess, that would be good is lower noise at higher ISO.
 But truth be told, it really doesn't appear at this time worse than
film grain at these ISO values.  I figure eventually we'll have 32000
ISO and no noise at all.  But film certainly does not allow for that,
and what I have seen so far is that it mimics film pretty darned close
if not way better already.

So, I guess I'm jazzed.

I also got the SB800, and haven't really looked at it too much, due to
all the other nonsense I've been dealing with.  But it looks like you
can do off camera stuff as if it has a built in SU-4 unit in it.  How
cool.  My old flash, an SB28, really worked great.  If this flash does
better, I certainly can't complain.  If I can use it with an SU-4, and
the SB800, and the on camera flash together, then I think this is going
to be quite nice.

Thanks!
Don Wiss - 29 Sep 2006 01:35 GMT
>I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.

I've never formatted a CF card in a camera. I've never formatted one hooked
to a PC. I've never formatted one! They all have the factory format, and
I've never had any problems whatsoever.

Don <www.donwiss.com/pictures/> (e-mail link at page bottoms).
John McWilliams - 29 Sep 2006 01:48 GMT
>> I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.
>
> I've never formatted a CF card in a camera. I've never formatted one hooked
> to a PC. I've never formatted one! They all have the factory format, and
> I've never had any problems whatsoever.

Formatting in my camera, a 20D, takes about a second. Erasing all on a
largish card can take over 15 seconds, longer on the 300D.

Signature

John McWilliams

Don Wiss - 29 Sep 2006 02:04 GMT
>>> I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.
>>
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>Formatting in my camera, a 20D, takes about a second. Erasing all on a
>largish card can take over 15 seconds, longer on the 300D.

That is not a true format. That is a quick one, which just clears out the
directory entries.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
DoN. Nichols - 29 Sep 2006 03:55 GMT
According to Don Wiss  <donwiss@no_spam.com>:

> >>> I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.
> >>
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> That is not a true format. That is a quick one, which just clears out the
> directory entries.

    Actually -- it writes a new empty directory (and corresponding
FAT) on the CF card -- which I would think would be quicker than going
through and eliminating files from the directory and correcting the FAT.
And -- the writing of a fresh FAT means that there is no need to
defragment (ignoring the minimal extra load from dealing with a
fragmented filesystem on a CF card, since there is no seek time to deal
with), since you are starting from scratch each time.

    But if a part of the CF card goes bad, a true format with full
scan can at least work around the bad area.  (But that might mean that I
would have to go to a Windows machine for that, instead of using my unix
boxen.

    I don't know whether the Nikon cameras actually check for the
current information from previous formats, or just go for the original
design specs of the card read from some repository inside the card.  If
the former, a single re-format in the computer could keep the bad
sectors out of use through multiple re-formats in the camera.
Otherwise, the bad sectors would probably come back to haunt you.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Email:   <dnichols@d-and-d.com>   | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
    (too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
          --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

Bill - 29 Sep 2006 09:40 GMT
> I don't know whether the Nikon cameras actually check for the
> current information from previous formats, or just go for the
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> sectors out of use through multiple re-formats in the camera.
> Otherwise, the bad sectors would probably come back to haunt you.

From what I understand the controller in the card works like a hard
drive controller and can map out bad blocks of the memory and writes
out a table of these errors. New cards can have a few bad blocks
straight from the manufacturer. There is also checksum error
correction in the controller.

As far as the camera is concerned, the card is just a chunk of memory.
The controller in the card keeps track of the data.
Don Wiss - 29 Sep 2006 12:04 GMT
>As far as the camera is concerned, the card is just a chunk of memory.
>The controller in the card keeps track of the data.

There is no controller on a Compact Flash card. Just like there is no
controller on a diskette. Some of the other cards do have a controller, and
the cameras that use them have problems whenever the cards get bigger.

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
David J Taylor - 29 Sep 2006 14:36 GMT
[]
> There is no controller on a Compact Flash card. Just like there is no
> controller on a diskette. Some of the other cards do have a
> controller, and the cameras that use them have problems whenever the
> cards get bigger.
>
> Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).

Well, I guess it depends what you mena by controller.  The CF card does
not present a raw memory interface, but it does have an embedded "IDE disk
controller" so that it looks like an IDE disk on the edge contacts (as I
understand it).

Cheers,
David
Bill - 29 Sep 2006 09:48 GMT
>>I hope you've learned to format in-camera from now on.
>
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and
> I've never had any problems whatsoever.

Nor should you. There is generally no requirement to format a card
since they all use the same FAT16/FAT32 file systems. It's just
quicker to format than to have the file browser delete the files on
the card.

Actually I don't format very often...I usually just move the images
from the card to my computer. That deletes them off the card while
moving them, and the card's good to go again.
David J Taylor - 29 Sep 2006 11:20 GMT
[]
> Nor should you. There is generally no requirement to format a card
> since they all use the same FAT16/FAT32 file systems. It's just
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> from the card to my computer. That deletes them off the card while
> moving them, and the card's good to go again.

Using Move is more risky than using Copy, as if the move fails you might
be left with no copy of the image!  Move also requires more write cycles
to the card.

I use Copy, followed by an in-camera format (to ensure the correct FAT16
file system is used) when the card becomes nearly full.

David
cjcampbell - 29 Sep 2006 11:33 GMT
> There's a reason camera manufacturers recommend formatting IN THE
> CAMERA and not the computer or card reader. If the wrong file format
> for the card is used, the camera can't communicate with the flash card
> memory controller and you get the CHA error. This also happens if data
> is corrupted in the card, or if the card fails.

Nikon does not recommend any such thing. It is not in the manuals for
any of their cameras that I know of.

> Presuming the cards controller isn't toast, format the card on your
> computer using FAT - do not use FAT32. The max capacity will only be
> 2gig, but you should be able to format the card in your camera at that
> point, and it should restore it to regular capacity.

In point of fact, SanDisk cards are formatted at the factory to FAT32
and they are formatted to FAT32 by the camera. Now, if he had formatted
it to NTFS or something, I could see that.

I have formatted cards in the computer (Mac PowerBook OS X, no less) to
FAT32 and used them in both the D70 and the D200 with no problems.
Denny - 28 Sep 2006 20:19 GMT
I F the store guys let you put a diseased CF card in their display
cameras then the group IQ in that store is a negative number...
When I was dealing in electronics no one was allowed to attach anything
to any of my stock....  If you wanted to see this or that work in the
unit, then it had to be a factory fresh part out of my stock that got
inserted...  That went for records, CD's, speakers, anything...

So, you are trying to convince us that you walked into a store, told
them that CF card ruined your camera, inserted this card into 5 more of
their cameras ruining them,  and walked out in one piece?  hmmm....

denny
Jon Nadelberg - 29 Sep 2006 00:30 GMT
> So, you are trying to convince us that you walked into a store, told
> them that CF card ruined your camera, inserted this card into 5 more of
> their cameras ruining them,  and walked out in one piece?  hmmm....

I'm not trying to convince you of anything.  I just relayed what happened.

I suspect the card did something weird, but I have no idea what.
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 29 Sep 2006 00:45 GMT
>> So, you are trying to convince us that you walked into a store, told
>> them that CF card ruined your camera, inserted this card into 5 more
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> happened.
> I suspect the card did something weird, but I have no idea what.

Hey, it happens!  I wouldn't worry about what some stranger in the
newsgroups thinks about it since the dealer replaced everything and made it
right for you.

Rita
 
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