Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / October 2006
Mirror lens
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Peter - 28 Sep 2006 08:59 GMT I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. I'm aware of mirror lens limitations, but for the price it seems like a nice toy... I cant afford >500mm refractor-type lens for sure.
All I've been able to find is 500mm mirrors - not good enough. Are there any longer ones out there?
Peter
Peter - 28 Sep 2006 09:05 GMT > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, > so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All I've been able to find is 500mm mirrors - not good enough. Are there > any longer ones out there? Sorry. Forgot to mention this is for Canon 20D
Peter
tomm42 - 28 Sep 2006 13:31 GMT > > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, > > so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Peter Saw an article recently on a 300-800 Sigma zoom, long lenses get really expensive fast above 300mm. This one was $4000, I beliieve Canon has a 600 in about the same price range. There were 800mm at one time but again $$. Also you should start working out the guy writing about the 300-800 said with a tripod strudy enogh to hold this lens his kit weighed 35lbs, thats just the camera gear.
Tom
Toby - 29 Sep 2006 06:31 GMT The Russian mirrors are not bad for the price. I got a 1000 mm f11 (effective T stop of 13, like all mirrors) for about 200 USD. It uses a t-mount (I use Nikon). I assume there is a t-mount for the latest Canon mount...
Toby
>> I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, >> so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. I'm [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > > Peter Roy Smith - 29 Sep 2006 13:53 GMT > The Russian mirrors are not bad for the price. I got a 1000 mm f11 > (effective T stop of 13, like all mirrors) Why do you say "like all mirrors". You should be able to make a mirror with any T stop you want (well, within reason), by making the mirror larger or smaller.
Or is it just that most manufacturers have tended to design around T/13 as a good compromise of many factors?
Doug McDonald - 29 Sep 2006 14:06 GMT >> The Russian mirrors are not bad for the price. I got a 1000 mm f11 >> (effective T stop of 13, like all mirrors) > > Why do you say "like all mirrors". You should be able to make a mirror > with any T stop you want (well, within reason), by making the mirror larger > or smaller. I think the OP meant that "all" mirror lenses that are f/11 are t/13.
And f/22 would be t/26, and f/5.5 would be t/6.5, etc.
Doug McDonald
Tony Polson - 28 Sep 2006 10:30 GMT >I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, >so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >All I've been able to find is 500mm mirrors - not good enough. Are there >any longer ones out there? There is a Sigma 600mm mirror lens, the Vivitar Solid Cat 600mm and 800mm lenses plus the Soviet-made MTO 1100mm mirror lens. The Vivitar Solid Cats are relatively rare but they do come up on eBay from time to time.
The Soviet lens used to be advertised as a 1000mm lens but its focal length is actually nearer 1100mm. In later years it was sold (optically unchanged) with 1100mm focal length markings.
Buy_Sell - 28 Sep 2006 18:46 GMT http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/fdlenses/reflex 8002000/cat.htm
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> >I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, > >so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > length is actually nearer 1100mm. In later years it was sold > (optically unchanged) with 1100mm focal length markings. Rudy Benner - 28 Sep 2006 21:14 GMT > http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/canon/fdresources/fdlenses/reflex 8002000/cat.htm > [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] >> length is actually nearer 1100mm. In later years it was sold >> (optically unchanged) with 1100mm focal length markings. Good god, I had to really look to spot the camera on the end.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 28 Sep 2006 14:25 GMT > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, > so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Peter Unfortunately, it seems that the mirror lenses for cameras are made cheap and perform that way too. That is not a property of mirror optics, but low budget manufacture. If you only do static photos, then check out telescopes. Unfortunately, you only get manual focus.
Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will probably get better performance from a quality telephoto plus a TC than you will with a cheap mirror lens.
I have many images on my web site with and without TCs. Check out the birds and bear galleries at: http://www.clarkvision.com There are also stacked 1.4+2x TC images, e.g.: http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.astrophoto-1/web/moon-JZ3F3658-60-c -5x-700.html See also: Teleconverter Experiences http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/teleconverter1.html
Roger
Peter - 28 Sep 2006 14:52 GMT > Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small > percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] > Teleconverter Experiences > http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/teleconverter1.html I've tried 80-400mm Sigma OS with Promaster 1.4x TC and seen dramatic loss of sharpness. Are you saying that Canon 2x TC will give me noticeably better results than Promaster? Sigma is not exactly the sharpest lens around but it's not bad either.
Peter
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 29 Sep 2006 02:56 GMT >> Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small >> percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > > Peter Peter, No, I'm saying you'll get good results with fixed lenses, not zooms. Zooms are in general softer than fixed focal length lenses. You need top quality optics in order to magnify the image with TCs and all zooms are a compromise. You also need top quality TCs. I use Kenko pro 300 TCs (1.4x and 2x). All the images in the above links are with fixed lenses and kenko pro TCs.
Roger
Peter - 29 Sep 2006 07:38 GMT >>> Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small >>> percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will [quoted text clipped - 14 lines] >> noticeably better results than Promaster? Sigma is not exactly the >> sharpest lens around but it's not bad either.
> No, I'm saying you'll get good results with fixed lenses, not > zooms. Zooms are in general softer than fixed focal length [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All the images in the above links are with fixed lenses and > kenko pro TCs. Hmm. According to wisdom on this group 500mm Nikkor f/8 (going price on eBay seems to be in 200+$ range) + TC + Nikon->Canon adapter is the best combo. Of course I wont have autofocus but camera should be able to meter automatically.
Anyone care to comment?
Peter
default - 29 Sep 2006 08:56 GMT > Hmm. According to wisdom on this group 500mm Nikkor f/8 (going price on > eBay seems to be in 200+$ range) + TC + Nikon->Canon adapter is the best > combo. Of course I wont have autofocus but camera should be able to meter > automatically. > > Anyone care to comment? There is one issue to keep in mind. If you use an autofocus teleconverter on a manual focus (non-electronic) lens, then the TC will close the microswitch in the EOS mount that tells the camera that a lens is present. When you take the picture, the camera will hang. You'll either need a non-electronic TC, or you have to press the lens release and rotate the TC slightly toward releasing from the camera to disconnect the switch. You might want to use two tripods, one for the lens and one for the camera to reduce the risk of the lens falling off. EOS cameras meter nicely in Av and M modes with manual lenses.
I have used the 2x TC with my F/8 mirror and the results are not great. The TC gives you F/16 which causes the viewfinder to not be very bright and the depth of field is not shallow enough at long distances to judge the plane of best focus manually very well. It is easier with larger apertures and long focal lengths and closer distances where the focal plane is easily visible. Aside from difficult focussing, the pictures are too soft for almost anything. Even 4x6 prints aren't great. Adding the 2x TC to the mirror lens doesn't give better results than just cropping 1/2 the picture out.
A mirror lens has the benefit of no chromatic aberation but otherwise I don't think you will be pleased. A Nikon-EOS adaptor is fairly expensive also as is a good quality TC. I am sure that the Nikkor is much better than the Quantaray mirror that I have but still I would think that the money would be better put toward a refracting lens. The Sigma 600mm F/8 mirror is fairly well liked also and includes a hood and case for $449. http://www.amazon.com/Sigma-600mm-F8/dp/B000GFZNEW/sr=8-1/qid=1159515434/ref=pd_ bbs_1/102-8780229-4918504?ie=UTF8&s=photo
I suspect that this Samyang/Opteka/Phoenix 650-1300mm F/8-16 lens would get you better results than a mirror with TC: http://www.opteka.com/productdetail.asp?productid=4127 It even includes a carrying bag and a T-Mount adaptor.
Some pictures from this lens are here: http://www.fortunecity.com/greenfield/porton/464/id37.htm
Pictures of it mounted on a 20D are here: http://photography-on-the.net/forum/showthread.php?t=103319&page=24 Another case where I think two tripods are needed. There is a couple of moon pictures and one of Mars taken with this lens. They didn't put up any pictures with the 2x TC though.
With a bit of noise reduction (for the high ISO's needed), contrast adjustment and careful sharpening, you could probably get some ok pictures from it.
Consider also the Russian manual focus lenses (Kiev has the best prices): http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/canon_cameras_lenses.htm http://www.zenit-camera.com/canon_cameras_lenses.htm http://www.kievcamera.com/cameras.php?cat=14
They have a few mirror lenses for sale including a 500mm f/5.6, 500 f/8, 1000mm f/10. The Peleng 8mm f/3.5 circular fisheye is a lot of fun too and a good lens for the price.
With a 500mm F/5.6 mirror, and the M42-EOS adaptor with focus confirmation ($95): http://www.rugift.com/photocameras/canon-eos-adapter-focus-confirm.htm
you would get the autofocus confirmation light during manual focussing which may help a lot. According to Bob Atkins, it works well. http://www.bobatkins.com/photography/reviews/m42_eos_focusing_adapter.html
If you want the to take the kind of pictures that Roger has on his site, you'll probably have to invest in a more serious lens.
David Ruether - 29 Sep 2006 20:32 GMT > Hmm. According to wisdom on this group 500mm Nikkor f/8 (going price on eBay seems to be in 200+$ range) + TC + Nikon->Canon > adapter is the best combo. Of course I wont have autofocus but camera should be able to meter automatically. > > Anyone care to comment? > > Peter I posted this earlier: "You can adapt Nikkor lenses to Canon bodies, and since the adapter doesn't allow for auto-diaphragm operation and mirrors don't have auto-diaphragms, this can work well. The older-version 500mm f8 is quite sharp at distances out to infinity, unlike most others - so sharp that it works well on the Nikon TC14B, giving a good 700mm f11 ('course the "real" stop is almost one stop less, as is generally true with mirrors...). [with some editing...]" Note that I specify the Nikkor TC14B converter - the Nikkor TC14A, TC14C, and likely the newer AF 1.4x, do not work as well (someone else commented about the possibility of an AF converter causing the Canon body to hang, also...). Unfortunately, The TC14B in nice codition may cost more than the lens in similar condition... -- David Ruether ruether@verizon.net rpn1@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
RichA - 02 Oct 2006 03:19 GMT > >>> Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small > >>> percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will [quoted text clipped - 31 lines] > > Peter The best name brand mirror (apart from maybe Zeiss) would be Olympus's OM 500mm which come up from time to time on Ebay at around $600/ea. The finest mirror lens of all time was the Questar 700 from Questar corporation. The $100-$150 no-names out there are pure garbage. IMO, if you must use a mirror lens and you don't anticipate needing high speed results and if you can use a tripod, would be a good telescope, like a Meade ETX optical tube assembly. However, they are slow lenses.
Peter - 03 Oct 2006 07:23 GMT >>> Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small >>> percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will [quoted text clipped - 22 lines] > All the images in the above links are with fixed lenses and > kenko pro TCs. OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, and vignetting it has, and price tag is prohibitive but 500mm prime is cool!!! :)
Peter
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 03 Oct 2006 14:33 GMT > OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a > photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, and > vignetting it has, and price tag is prohibitive but 500mm prime is > cool!!! :) Peter, That's great. When I got my 500, it was a "life changing" lens because it opened up so many new possibilities.
One thing I found with such a lens, is that you need very good tripod support. I had bogen 3021 tripods. I even modified them to reduce vibration. Not good enough. Vibrations reduced image sharpness (why use such a lens if you can't get sharp pictures?). I found, as many others before me have, that you need carbon fiber. The lowest end carbon fiber tripod for the 500 is the Gitzo 1228 (about $600). Then I found a ball head or pano head can work but I quickly tired holding the lens up, and tracking action was very difficult without the lens falling over. So, as others before me found, the choice for such a large lens is the full Wimberly head (another $600). Then add in plates for a couple hundred more for total (minimum) for supporting the lens of about $1400. (prices may be a little off; I bought this stuff years ago.) Oh, and then you need a large photo backpack to carry it in, another couple hundred. Sorry for the bad news. But after getting over the sticker shock, I have never regretted it spending the money. Best investment in photo gear I ever made. (There is a reason why on a wildlife photo shoot, you encounter a lot of professionals and retired professionals, like doctors and dentists: they have the money for this stuff.) ;-)
Roger Photos at: http://www.clarkvision.com
Peter - 04 Oct 2006 12:12 GMT >> OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a >> photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > That's great. When I got my 500, it was a "life changing" lens > because it opened up so many new possibilities. There is one thing that bothers me slightly... the lens gets glowing reviews all over the place yet sample pictures I saw (from the specific lens we're looking to buy) show noticeable vignetting. I know this is to be expected with long focal lengths but none of reviews mention it. Is this a lemon, or vignetting is fact of life when dealing with >300mm?
Peter
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 04 Oct 2006 14:27 GMT > There is one thing that bothers me slightly... the lens gets glowing > reviews all over the place yet sample pictures I saw (from the specific > lens we're looking to buy) show noticeable vignetting. I know this is to > be expected with long focal lengths but none of reviews mention it. Is > this a lemon, or vignetting is fact of life when dealing with >300mm? Peter, I assume you mean light fall-off? Yes, the lens does have some light fall-off wide open, but no more so than most lenses. The following two links show images done mostly with the 500 f/4 L IS lens. You can look at them and look for light fall-off issues. http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bear http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird
Most images were done wide open and none were corrected for light fall-off. Many of the images (all of the bears) are on a 1.3x crop camera, so on your 1.6x crop (I think that is what you said), you would see less light fall off. It is not an issue for me.
Light fall off is an issue with astronomy photos where one needs to accurately subtract out light pollution. But the light fall-off is easily corrected by measuring a blank wall or sky and using that image as a flat field. Flat fielding is a common practice in scientific imaging, and corrects for any light fall-off and pixel to pixel sensitivity issues.
Roger
Peter - 05 Oct 2006 09:00 GMT >> There is one thing that bothers me slightly... the lens gets glowing >> reviews all over the place yet sample pictures I saw (from the >> specific lens we're looking to buy) show noticeable vignetting. I know >> this is to be expected with long focal lengths but none of reviews >> mention it. Is this a lemon, or vignetting is fact of life when >> dealing with >300mm?
> I assume you mean light fall-off? Yes, the lens does have some > light fall-off wide open, but no more so than most lenses. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bear > http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird Yes, I meant light fall-off. It's really slight in your photos, but this sample FF shot shows more of it:
http://www.ruksis.com/photos/main.php?g2_itemId=1117
> Light fall off is an issue with astronomy photos where one needs > to accurately subtract out light pollution. But the light fall-off > is easily corrected by measuring a blank wall or sky and using that > image as a flat field. Flat fielding is a common practice in > scientific imaging, and corrects for any light fall-off and > pixel to pixel sensitivity issues. Yes I'm aware of these correction techniques. Possibly the fix is as simple as adjusting vignetting slider in PS2 RAW importer...
Peter
David Ruether - 05 Oct 2006 15:42 GMT >>> There is one thing that bothers me slightly... the lens gets glowing reviews all over the place yet sample pictures I saw (from >>> the specific lens we're looking to buy) show noticeable vignetting. I know this is to be expected with long focal lengths but >>> none of reviews mention it. Is this a lemon, or vignetting is fact of life when dealing with >300mm?
>> I assume you mean light fall-off? Yes, the lens does have some >> light fall-off wide open, but no more so than most lenses. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >> http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bear >> http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird
> Yes, I meant light fall-off. It's really slight in your photos, but this sample FF shot shows more of it: > > http://www.ruksis.com/photos/main.php?g2_itemId=1117 This is an unacceptable level of fall-off - but the clarkvision photos don't show this level of fall-off (though the bears especially sometimes appear overly "burned in" around their edges - and maybe the same around a few of the birds). The last one above looks like a mis-timed focal-plane shutter effect (but that is not possible since it is in the wrong direction). What about a too-long and/or crooked lens shade? -- David Ruether ruether@verizon.net rpn1@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 03 Oct 2006 14:38 GMT > OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a > photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, and > vignetting it has, and price tag is prohibitive but 500mm prime is > cool!!! :) Peter, Are you getting an IS lens, or older non-IS? I would not recommend non IS in lenses this size. Professional wildlife photographers have switched from Nikon to canon because Nikon does not have super telephotos with VR (Nikon's IS). The IS is critical for sharp images when following action. You can get good images without IS, but it is much harder.
Roger
Peter - 04 Oct 2006 10:41 GMT >> OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a >> photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > images when following action. You can get good > images without IS, but it is much harder. IS of course. Wouldnt even think of non-IS at this focal length.
Is it usable at all with monopod? I read your recommendations about tripod, but so far all I've been using is monopod as I shoot really fast-moving sports (windsurfing). I dont think tripod will work for me...
thanks! Peter
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 04 Oct 2006 14:17 GMT >>> OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a >>> photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, [quoted text clipped - 17 lines] > thanks! > Peter Peter, I'm sure you could use a monopod, but in my experience you'll probably tire quickly. The lens weighs about 8 pounds (I forget the exact number), then add a pound or two for the body, and you have 9 to 10 pounds balancing on top of the monopod.
I do action too. Birds flying by at close range at all angles requires fast smooth movements. I have occasionally used the lens hand held, but I can't hold it steady for more than a minute or so. At sporting events you do see people with big lenses and monopods. At popular wildlife spots I do not recall ever seeing someone with a big lens on a monopod. In my experience, the Wimberly type head frees you from any effort to maintain balance. You can completely let go of the lens with no part of the head locked, and the lens will stay pointed where you were pointing when you let go. In a long session, e.g. hours, my arms get tired being held up to the camera, but with a Wimberly, I can let go and still watch the subject through the lens.
Roger
Rudy Benner - 04 Oct 2006 15:19 GMT >>>> OK I knew this was gonna happen... will be pooling resources with a >>>> photographer friend and getting used Canon 500mm f/4L. Beast it is, and [quoted text clipped - 38 lines] > > Roger Had to look it up ...
http://www.tripodhead.com/products/wimberley-main.cfm
More money. Can't take it with you.
Floyd L. Davidson - 04 Oct 2006 23:44 GMT >> I do action too. Birds flying by at close range at all angles requires >> fast smooth movements. I have occasionally used the lens hand [quoted text clipped - 16 lines] > >More money. Can't take it with you. Check out the Manfrotto/Bogen 3421 Gimbal mount too. It costs less and is equally as effective as the Wimberley.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 05 Oct 2006 03:58 GMT >>>I do action too. Birds flying by at close range at all angles requires >>>fast smooth movements. I have occasionally used the lens hand [quoted text clipped - 19 lines] > Check out the Manfrotto/Bogen 3421 Gimbal mount too. It costs less > and is equally as effective as the Wimberley. Yes, but the few people I have encountered with it in the field say it is not quite up to the heavier 500 f/4 and larger lenses. Perhaps a 300 f/2.8. The other thing is you can't change the vertical distance, so you can't properly balance the system. Thus you are reduced to holding up the lens.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1 26663&is=REG#
Roger
Floyd L. Davidson - 05 Oct 2006 11:12 GMT >>>http://www.tripodhead.com/products/wimberley-main.cfm >>> [quoted text clipped - 6 lines] >say it is not quite up to the heavier 500 f/4 and larger >lenses. Are you making this stuff up, or what? Or maybe you are thinking of a Mongoose M-262, as seen in this image,
http://www.birdsasart.com/mongoose.htm
Compare that (or a Wimberley) for strength with a Bogen 3421,
http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/41790482/original
Just to put that monster in perspective, here is a picture of that lense along with three *smaller* lenses that are usually thought of as "big",
http://www.pbase.com/liquidstone/image/41790522
>Perhaps a 300 f/2.8. Note the lens in the URL that you cited appears to be somewhat larger than 300mm. Here's another one,
http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/non-nikon_articles/manfrotto_393/393_2.html
The lens is described in the article as a 600mm f/4.
I have an old (*huge*, 1977 vintage) Canon 800mm SSC f/5.6 lense, and it is nothing close overloading the mount.
> The other thing is you can't change >the vertical distance, so you can't properly balance the system. Did you look at the pictures or read the product description?
It does not have continuous vertical adjustment, but it clearly *does* allow you to "change the vertical distance". The increment is about 1-3/8", which happens to be quite close enough. If you do want it to be perfectly balanced (which actually is not needed at all), then it would require only a little magic to pad the mount as needed for each lense. It also would be very easy to drill and tap two more holes for closer adjustment.
>Thus you are reduced to holding up the lens. Not at all true.
I typically use it either with the 800mm or with a Nikkor 80-200mm f/2.8 AFD ED lense, which is of course much much smaller (but still one of the heavier 200mm lenses around), and commonly can and do position either of them to be left hands off. And that is using the same vertical height setting for both.
The only thing I distinctly do not like about it is is the use of something other than an Arca style quick release plate. It uses a very nice long wide plate, but Yet-Another-Mounting-Plate I do not need... However, to be honest the wide plate that it uses is good, and a long mounting plate means that balance adjustment is easy for different cameras or when a teleconverter is used. And while it would be easy enough to spend $100 or so and mount Kirk QR base on it, it hasn't been enough of a bother squeeze me for that much change yet... :-)
My setup procedure is to loosen the two cradle friction screws, and then move the quick release mount horizontally to find the balance point. The lense mount is then locked into position and the cradle screws adjusted to provide enough drag to hold it in place wherever it is pointed. I make it a bit tighter if I don't expect to be moving the lense while shooting, or very loose if I am shooting while moving the lense. (I've used it with the cradle both above and blow, and have been using it in the low position, though I simply didn't find any difference.)
For me perhaps the most impressive thing about using a gimbal mount was how easy it is to chase a moving object. Airplanes, birds, and parachutists are things I've tracked with the 800mm lense and have managed (mostly by accident) to both focus on and get exposures... this thing just beats a ball head head over heals.
Typically I also loosen the lense collar to allow the lense to be rotated. With the smaller lense I do have a problem with the Nikon D2x camera being heavier on one side and wanting to rotate by itself; hence the collar has to be tight enough to provide some drag, but that is no different than the vertical balance merely being close enough but not perfect. With the big 800mm lense the camera imbalance is a much smaller percentage of the overall weight and I've never noticed any tendency for it to rotate, while with the 80-200mm zoom it requires correct adjustment.
Of course the 800mm tripod collar, not needing careful adjustment, has a *huge* knob that is easy to carefully adjust; while the 80-200mm that has to be just right has a little knob that is not only difficult but happens to be positioned right behind the gimbal mount, which makes it all the more difficult!
:-)
>http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=1 26663&is=REG# Clearly the picture should have suggest to you that your comments cannot be accurate.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 05 Oct 2006 13:38 GMT >>>>http://www.tripodhead.com/products/wimberley-main.cfm >>>> [quoted text clipped - 108 lines] > Clearly the picture should have suggest to you that your > comments cannot be accurate. 1) The comments I made about the support of heavier lenses was made to me unsolicited by people in the field. I have no personal experience with the devices. That fact that you show pictures of the device with big lenses proves nothing. The people I talked to in the field said the stability is not as good as they liked, and they didn't like the balance issues. I could probably find some pictures of big lenses on the Bogen mount too.
2) My comment about balance is proven by your statements above, where you admit the balance is not perfect. If the system is not perfectly balanced you have to tighten clamps which causes friction and jerkiness when following action, or you have to physically hold the lens yourself. If the balance is too low and the camera+lens goes to a horizontal position, it is at least safe, but if the balance is too high, you run the risk of the lens+camera falling over. One guy I saw in the field had his big lens on a ball head, and the camera+lens fell backward, the camera hit the tripod leg and cracked the LCD display.
In the field I often add and remove a flash with better beamer. The system needs to be rebalanced, as the balance changes a lot. With the Wimberly, I release one clamp and move the system up or down to set the balance. It takes a few seconds. With your setup, you would have to have special spacers made and you would have to use wrenches to change out plates and spacers to get proper balance, taking a long time. Time I would not want to waste in the field.
Roger
Floyd L. Davidson - 05 Oct 2006 17:11 GMT >>>>Check out the Manfrotto/Bogen 3421 Gimbal mount too. It costs >>>>less [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >> >> http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/non-nikon_articles/manfrotto_393/393_2.html ...
>> Clearly the picture should have suggest to you that your >> comments cannot be accurate. > >1) The comments I made about the support of heavier lenses was made >to me unsolicited by people in the field. I have no personal >experience with the devices. That is quite clear. The "unsolicited" also seem to be folks who equally lack experience.
>That fact that you show pictures of >the device with big lenses proves nothing. The people I talked >to in the field said the stability is not as good as they liked, >and they didn't like the balance issues. Given that I've got one sitting next to me, and use it with one of the larger lenses around, plus typical reviews of the unit show it being used with the largest lenses, and not one review or comment I have been able to find supports your comment... frankly I just plain question the veracity of that statement.
>I could probably >find some pictures of big lenses on the Bogen mount too. The issue of the pictures is also bogus. When I can show you several pictures people posted to the Internet bragging about how well it works with the largest lenses around, it makes your claim that it won't handle a 500mm lense simply laughable. I can't find *anyone* who has said it wasn't at least as strong as the Wimberley gimbal mount.
Some claim the Bogen is stronger, and while I don't have enough experience with a Wimberley to be authoritative, it is obvious from the design that the Wimberley would have to be heavier to provide the same strength. The Bogen unit weighs 2.3 lbs, while the old Wimberley is 4.15 and the new model is 3.15 lbs. The physical sizes are relatively about the same proportions too. Hence the new Wimberley is modestly bigger and heavier, but not enough to probably be of any concern. (The older version was significantly heavier and larger.)
Whatever, one would have expected that you might have actually read the article associated with at least the first URL that I gave you,
http://www.nikonians.org/html/resources/non-nikon_articles/manfrotto_393/393_1.html
And if you do a Google search the picture what comes up is entirely different than you have claimed.
How about this comment comment in a forum, which I entirely agree with (even though I do use it with a smaller lense on some occasions),
"IMHO too, the 3421 is bulky and sort of overkill if your lens is smaller than the Canon 600, Nikon 600, or the Sigmonster." http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1029&message=13116696
The reason? Here is a comment from a review,
"The build quality of this head is very impressive, the frame seems to be steel and not lightweight alloy. Those using this head with monstrous Sigma 800mm and the even larger 300-800mm lenses seem very confident about it's strength and the safety of their lenses." http://www.digiscoped.com/manfrotto701RC2.html
And other comments:
"The Bogen head is lighter, more rigid and $400 cheaper than a Wimberly head."
"I've known 2 people with the Sidekick and one with the Wimberly and they had a play with my Manfrotto 393/Bogen 3421 the other week and are now thinking of selling their set-ups and buying the Manfrotto/Bogen unit."
I did find exactly two that were not quite as praising as the others,
"The Manfrotto does not have the finesse of the Full Wimberly,. but it is a MUCH more sensible solution than any of the side mount options."
"I am not saying that the Wimberly isn't better but for $400 less you can not go wrong with the Bogen if your on a budget."
I didn't find even one single hint that suggests your comments might be accurate.
>2) My comment about balance is proven by your statements above, >where you admit the balance is not perfect. Wrong. I specifically pointed out that your statements about balance were not correct. 1) There *is* exactly the adjustment you claim does not exist, and 2) the "perfect balance" you claim is required is *not* required (and unattainable in practice anyway).
>If the system is not perfectly balanced you have to tighten >clamps which causes friction and jerkiness when following action, >or you have to physically hold the lens yourself. That is not true (unless maybe you use this thing in a studio or inside lab setting, which is not my experience). Worst of all, as I pointed out it would be relatively easy to provide perfect balance for any given lense if it were needed.
>If the balance >is too low and the camera+lens goes to a horizontal position, >it is at least safe, but if the balance is too high, you run >the risk of the lens+camera falling over. One guy I saw in >the field had his big lens on a ball head, and the camera+lens fell >backward, the camera hit the tripod leg and cracked the LCD display. So the fact that ballheads don't work well with large heavy lenses proves exactly what?
You don't need "perfect balance" to get perfect handling. In practice it really is not necessary or even actually wanted.
>In the field I often add and remove a flash with better beamer. The >system needs to be rebalanced, as the balance changes a lot. With >the Wimberly, I release one clamp and move the system up or >down to set the balance. It takes a few seconds. That certainly would be faster with the Wimberley than with the Bogen. Not enough to make any difference, but faster. The adjustment on the Bogen requires removing two 1/4" screws (similar to the standard 1/4" camera tripod mounting screws though threaded just a little deeper at 5/32" inches). It is also inconvenienced by the necessity to make sure a washer is not dropped in the process.
I think the quote above, about finesse, ("The Manfrotto does not have the finesse of the Full Wimberly.") was referring exactly to that. In other ways the Bogen has equal or better design from a technical point of view.
Regardless, the only time that adjustment needs to be made is when switching lenses (if two lenses have a different dimension for the tripod mount depth), and it doesn't really add that much to the whole cumbersome process for large lenses anyway.
>With your setup, >you would have to have special spacers made and you would have to use >wrenches to change out plates and spacers to get proper balance, >taking a long time. Time I would not want to waste in the field. As I mentioned, the vertical adjustment does not require precision, it merely needs to be close. Precise balance is done with the horizontal mount, which is *extremely* quick and accurate. Once set, the mount stays where it is aimed.
To reduce movement caused by wind and vibration, it is *necessary* that the friction be adjusted to at least slightly hinder movement (if the camera is expected to stay put, which it is not if it will be moving while tracking something, and in that case it can be loosened up entirely, though I expect that provides less stability too). The external forces are much greater than those from any imbalance, and hence the friction adjustment virtually swamps the imbalance.
When the vertical balance is "perfect" and not enough friction is applied, the danged camera and lense will 1) swing in the breeze, and/or 2) move significantly if the camera strap is touched, and/or 3) move when the camera itself is barely touched, and/or 4) move significantly if a remote release cable is moved.
All of which says that the friction adjustment is necessary regardless of the balance, and it makes the actual vertical position merely an approximate balance anyway!
That is, for those of us who use these things outdoors... ;-)
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 06 Oct 2006 02:58 GMT >>>>>Check out the Manfrotto/Bogen 3421 Gimbal mount too. It costs >>>>>less [quoted text clipped - 183 lines] > > That is, for those of us who use these things outdoors... ;-) Hmmm. Seems like you are a little touchy on this subject. I have to disagree about balance, and since you have a different opinion, we'll have to just let it end there and agree to disagree.
Regarding the Bogen head, it's design in astronomy is called a fork mount. Fork mounts are very stable in general. The Wimberly is what is called a one-armed fork. I have designed, built and used fork mounted telescopes, and I had a close friend who designed and built one-armed forks (he since passed away). Both designs can give great performance.
While the basic design may be solid, specific implementations may or may not be. For example, a tubular structure is inherently the most stable. A solid round bar of the same diameter is only marginally more stable than a tube as most of the rigidity is in the outer rim. A flat bar the least stable. For example, would you buy a tripod made with legs 1/4 x 1 inch flat bars? It isn't even made because it is so unstable. The Bogen is made of flat bars, an inherently unstable design in spite of a fork style. This means that the system is more prone to vibration than if it was made from tubes.
The Wimberly is made of a large diameter tubular structure which overcomes the inherent less stability of the one-armed fork.
Roger
Floyd L. Davidson - 06 Oct 2006 06:28 GMT >Hmmm. Seems like you are a little touchy on this subject. It isn't the subject matter Roger, it's the bogosity level of your discussion.
1) Unnamed sources of expert opinion.
A. "... the few people I have encountered with it in the field say ..."
2) Total dismissal of the virtually 100% disagreement with your unnamed sources by virtually every reviewer found on the Internet, expert or otherwise.
3) Absolutely false claims.
A. "... can't change the vertical distance ..."
B. "... can't properly balance the system ..."
C. "... reduced to holding up the lens ..."
4) Armchair expertise.
A. "I have no personal experience with the devices."
That was just in the first couple responses, and now you are continuing with more.
>I have to disagree about balance, and since you have a different >opinion, we'll have to just let it end there and agree to disagree. What else could you say, given the detailed description you are arguing against...
>Regarding the Bogen head, it's design in astronomy is called "In astronomy"??? Are you pulling more of the stuffed shirt routine again? It is of course a simple bit of mechanical engineering, and is used in many disciplines other than photography and astronomy. Radar, guns, binoculars, gyros, and dozens of other gizmos that gearheads play with have been using gimbal mounts of either design for quite some time.
>a fork mount. Fork mounts are very stable in general. >The Wimberly is what is called a one-armed fork. Which is "in general" less stable than a regular fork.
>I have designed, built and used fork mounted telescopes, >and I had a close friend who designed and built one-armed >forks (he since passed away). Both designs can give great >performance. Why are you avoiding the issue and obfuscating the specifics?
>While the basic design may be solid, specific implementations >may or may not be. Hence, without specific testing, we *don't know* which is more or which is less stable. They take two different approaches, making two different sets of compromises, to arrive at two different solutions.
And we have no basis to dis one in favor of the other.
>For example, a tubular structure is inherently >the most stable. A solid round bar of the same diameter >is only marginally more stable than a tube >as most of the rigidity is in the outer rim. >A flat bar the least stable. For example, would you buy a >tripod made with legs 1/4 x 1 inch flat bars? Would you claim that a monopod is as stable than a tripod? (A lot of people still find a monopod very useful though!)
>It isn't even made >because it is so unstable. The Bogen is made of flat bars, >an inherently unstable design in spite of a fork style. And the Wimberley is made with a single armed fork, which is also an inherently less stable design.
>This means that the system is more prone to vibration than >if it was made from tubes. But since we are *not* comparing it to a double fork made with tubes, your implied conclusion is logically invalid.
>The Wimberly is made of a large diameter tubular structure which >overcomes the inherent less stability of the one-armed fork. And of course we can say that the Bogen is designed with a double armed fork which overcomes the inherently less stable flat bar structure.
I have no need to further argue with your biased/unfounded opinions. If you have something useful, I'd be interested. For example, if anyone has ever done vibration or strength tests and comparisons on the Bogen and Wimberley mounts, I would be very interested in what was determined.
In the meantime, I often mount the Bogen gimbal on an old Bencher "Majestic" Model 2500 tripod, attached to a Model 1205 gearhead. I think that is a "relatively" stable system even though it is neither the best nor the lightest. It also happens that I not uncommonly mount the Bogen gimbal on a LL Rue Groofwin Pod Camera Window mount, which is of course comparatively _unstable_ when used as a window mount! I've modified it a bit to provide a better fit to the vehicle's window/door geometry, and while it may not be the equivalent of welding it to an army tank, it does much better than what was possible without it.
And quite honestly I do *not* think the Wimberley would be any better, or that *is* what I would have acquired.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Oct 2006 03:21 GMT >>Hmmm. Seems like you are a little touchy on this subject. > [quoted text clipped - 112 lines] > And quite honestly I do *not* think the Wimberley would be any > better, or that *is* what I would have acquired. You can use just about any setup and get a picture. You can mount the 500 f/4 on a ball head, a pano head, a bogen gimbal head, or a wimberly. You can try and track action, and have some success. But the problem is with inferior equipment the number of missed shots goes up. There is a reason why pros buy certain equipment. It is NOT snob factor; it is performance. If the Bogen gimbal gimbal were as good as the wimberly for large lenses at 1/4 the price, many pros and advanced amateurs would buy it. They do not, and for a reason.
I have seen it in the field. I have not shot with it, but I don't need to. In talking with others who had it, I felt it and twisted it in my hands and felt the vibrations. It is not in the same class as the wimberly for such large lenses. Period.
Roger
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Oct 2006 13:45 GMT >You can use just about any setup and get a picture. You can >mount the 500 f/4 on a ball head, a pano head, a bogen gimbal [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] >for large lenses at 1/4 the price, many pros and advanced >amateurs would buy it. They do not, and for a reason. You probably own a couple Rolex watches, use a Lieca SLR, buy Apple hardware, run Microsoft software, and have a VCR that uses VHS, among other *naive* things that relate to someone with a good marketing machine convincing you that one product is inferior and the one they sell is not.
That ignores a large number of non-technical advantages the Wimberley mount enjoys over the Bogen mount. It was there first, grabbed market share and has name recognition. It *looks* fancier.
>I have seen it in the field. I have not shot with it, but >I don't need to. In talking with others who had it, >I felt it and twisted it in my hands and felt the vibrations. >It is not in the same class as the wimberly for such large >lenses. Period. Now that you can't get by with manufactured "expert testimony" from unnamed sources, suddenly you do have hands on experience!
Your entire discussion has the ring of finding reasons to support your pre-judgement.
I'm not convinced that the Bogen is _better_ than the Wimberley, for the reasons that I've stated. I'm not convinced the Wimberley is _significantly_ better either, and I'm absolutely positive that it is not worth the difference in price *for* *my* *purposes*, or for any particular use.
Which is to say that each has advantages the other does not, and it is a *very* *fine* distinction in any circumstance.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Rita Ä Berkowitz - 07 Oct 2006 13:58 GMT > That ignores a large number of non-technical advantages the > Wimberley mount enjoys over the Bogen mount. It was there > first, grabbed market share and has name recognition. It > *looks* fancier. Personally, I find it totally and utterly foolish to use Bogen or Wimberley mounts when a perfectly good cinderblock or tree crotch makes the perfect support for 400mm+ lenses.
Rita
Frank ess - 07 Oct 2006 21:45 GMT >> That ignores a large number of non-technical advantages the >> Wimberley mount enjoys over the Bogen mount. It was there [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > Wimberley mounts when a perfectly good cinderblock or tree crotch > makes the perfect support for 400mm+ lenses. That's it. Into the dustbin of bit-limbo with you. Adding a totally and utterly foolish "Personally" to the beginning of your usual hyperbollities, failure to respond to questions and statements as posted, and episode of (I hope) purposeful misunderstanding of issues has sent you over the edge. It's a long fall, but don't bother to squeal; I won't be listening.
Ta ta.
 Signature Frank ess
Paul J Gans - 08 Oct 2006 03:43 GMT Rita ? Berkowitz <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote:
>> That ignores a large number of non-technical advantages the >> Wimberley mount enjoys over the Bogen mount. It was there >> first, grabbed market share and has name recognition. It >> *looks* fancier.
>Personally, I find it totally and utterly foolish to use Bogen or Wimberley >mounts when a perfectly good cinderblock or tree crotch makes the perfect >support for 400mm+ lenses. Try that in the Antarctic.
---- Paul J. Gans
Floyd L. Davidson - 08 Oct 2006 04:12 GMT >Rita ? Berkowitz <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote: > [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > >Try that in the Antarctic. I'd have to at least head in that direction to find either of those items.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 07 Oct 2006 18:29 GMT >>You can use just about any setup and get a picture. You can >>mount the 500 f/4 on a ball head, a pano head, a bogen gimbal [quoted text clipped - 37 lines] > Which is to say that each has advantages the other does not, and > it is a *very* *fine* distinction in any circumstance. So now you are accusing me of lying! Astounding. No, I don't own a Rolex, a Lieca, have an apple pc, unfortunately I do run microsoft software, and VHS all of which has nothing to do with photographic performance.
I travel all over the world, and I meet a lot of photographers. Yes I do have side-by-side experience with photographers in the field, several of whom use the bogen gimbal mount. My travels allow me to see a lot of different equipment, especially at popular sites like this one in Bosque, New Mexico: http://www.clarkvision.com/tmp/bosque-photographers.c12.01.2004.IMG_7995.b-1024.jpg Meeting and discussing locations, methods, and equipment has helped me a lot over the years. Yes, I have seen the bogen gimbal mount in action, I have touched it and twisted it, and discussed it with the owners. No I have not shot with it and that is what I meant with no personal experience. But one can touch and flex the equipment and tell it is not up to certain standards. Yes it could be used and one can get good pictures, just like one can use a ball head with a big lens. One can get better pictures and more keepers with higher quality equipment more suited to the specific problem, in this case supporting a big lens with proper balance. That includes, in my opinion, the wimberly over the bogen.
Roger
Floyd L. Davidson - 07 Oct 2006 19:15 GMT >So now you are accusing me of lying! Astounding. No, I don't My apologies for not being clear. I accused you of lying in my first response to what I thought was clearly not an honest statement. I reiterated that when I summarized what I didn't like about your comments. And then I again made that clear in my last article.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 08 Oct 2006 04:00 GMT >>So now you are accusing me of lying! Astounding. No, I don't > [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > like about your comments. And then I again made that clear in > my last article. Well, that's as clear as mud.
AaronW - 01 Oct 2006 16:14 GMT > > Quality TCs on good lenses perform very well with only small > > percentage loss in detail and contrast. In general, you will [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > I've tried 80-400mm Sigma OS with Promaster 1.4x TC and seen dramatic > loss of sharpness. You can try Canon 200/2.8 with both Canon 1.4x and Canon 2x stacked, for a total of 600/8.
http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
default - 01 Oct 2006 21:28 GMT > You can try Canon 200/2.8 with both Canon 1.4x and Canon 2x stacked, > for a total of 600/8. > > http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr Will a Canon 1.4 and 2x fit together? It looks like the protruding front element on each would not allow them to be stacked.
David Ruether - 28 Sep 2006 15:40 GMT > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do > not fancy TCs. I'm aware of mirror lens limitations, but for the price it seems like a nice toy... I cant afford >500mm [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > > Peter You can adapt Nikkor lenses to Canon bodies, and since the adapter doesn't allow for auto-diaphragm operation and mirrors don't have auto-diaphragms, this can work well. The older-version 500mm f8 is quite sharp at distances out to infinity, unlike most others - so sharp that it works well on the Nikon TC-B, giving a good 700mm f11 ('course the "real" stop is about one stop less, as is generally true with mirrors...). The 1000mm f11 Nikkor never impressed me much, though. The MTO 1000mm is OK, as is the 800mm Vivitar, but these are not as good as the Nikkor 500+1.4x.
 Signature -- David Ruether ruether@verizon.net rpn1@cornell.edu http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
Fred McKenzie - 28 Sep 2006 17:19 GMT > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is 400mm, > so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy TCs. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] > All I've been able to find is 500mm mirrors - not good enough. Are there > any longer ones out there? Peter-
I have a Celestron C-90 mirror telescope with T-Mount adapters on the telescope and the camera body. The resulting lens is 1000mm f/11. I used it on a Canon Rebel 300D for a lunar eclipse. It is OK for pictures of the moon, but makes a lousey lens for terestrial photography.
One problem is its low contrast. Perhaps it is affected by atmospheric haze, but a clear blue sky looks quite dismal. It is also very hard to focus. Even on a film camera, the split-image focusing aid doesn't work at f/11. The one advantage is price compared to a 1000mm refracting lens.
The only AF mirror lens I know of, is the Minolta 500mm f/8 AF mirror lens. It has been out for many years, so there may be AF competitors by now. However, some bodies won't autofocus at f/8, so an f/5.6 version may be required for them. (The Minolta 500mm f/8 does autofocus with the Sony Alpha body.)
Fred
Floyd L. Davidson - 28 Sep 2006 17:35 GMT >I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now >is 400mm, so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >All I've been able to find is 500mm mirrors - not good >enough. Are there any longer ones out there? What camera and what price range are you looking at?
As far as teleconverters, try different TC's with your lense, because some of them will work better than others.
 Signature Floyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com
Jim - 26 Oct 2006 02:34 GMT > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is > 400mm, so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > Peter I think you will be better off with a TC than a mirror. I use the Tamron AF 2X with my Nikon 2.8 80-200. No it is not as sharp as the 80-200 without the TC, but is better than many lessor lenses.
 Signature Jim <jen....not....home..remvdots...@....yahoo
Buy_Sell - 26 Oct 2006 07:03 GMT http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/reflex/2000mm.htm
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> > I'm kinda interested in long focal length lens. My longest now is > > 400mm, so I would be looking for at least 600-700mm, and I do not fancy [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > > > > Peter Lefty - 26 Oct 2006 09:07 GMT > http://www.mir.com.my/rb/photography/companies/nikon/nikkoresources/reflex/2000mm.htm > [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >> > >> > Peter Look here.
http://www.rugift.com/
r.
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