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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / November 2006

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Amateur wedding photos - how to meter?

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Tiny Tim - 25 Sep 2006 11:07 GMT
I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks - 22
people in all. There will be no official photographer or videographer so the
guests have been asked to shoot away and grab what they can. I believe I
will be the only person with a DSLR and suspect that there is an
expectation, or at least a hope, that my shots might rise above the average
P&S efforts of the rest of the guests.

I've got a 30D with 17-85 IS lens and a 580EX flash but that's it, and as a
regular guest I won't be messing around with tripods or reflectors or in any
other way trying to get cocky. I only got the 30D in June and the 580EX two
days ago so I'm really not going to be very experienced with the flash side
of things. I'm not familiar with the venue and I'm not going to have to try
to organise people or anything like that so it really is just about enjoying
the wedding and getting some nice shots that maximise the technical
equipment advantage that I have over the P&S brigade.

Given the above my only real concern is doing the best I can regarding
exposure as the bride will be in white and the groom in black. There won't
be masses of posed shots as the party is too small so most stuff will be
shot on the fly as candids etc.. Can anyone give me some advice on the best
approach to metering to allow me to fire off shots quickly without a lot of
fiddling about. My main concern is not to blow the highlights in the dress
but also not to turn it into dull grey either. I will shoot in raw but I'm
really not sure whether to stick with plain old evaluative metering and
perhaps bracket or manually compensate exposure if my histogram is blown.
Maybe that's too much fiddling to keep checking exposure, adjust and reshoot
as the P&S crowd will just snap and go and nobody will want to hang around
for me to perfect the shot. Or perhaps I should just to use partial or spot
metering, meter off the dress and maybe bump up the exposure a bit to keep
the whites white. But that would mean messing around by first aiming for
metering purposes, setting exposure lock, reframing for focus and then
reframing again for composition before finally taking the shot. It all seems
a lot to remember for someone like me who is still learning this stuff.
Then, of course, there will be shots without the wedding dress so that may
want a different metering technique. I guess evaluative is the easy way to
go for guests but I'm not so sure about the bride. What I'm really looking
for is a recommendation for the best "point and shoot" metering solution for
my DSLR, if there is such a thing.

I'd be grateful for any advice.

Thanks,
Tim.
P - 25 Sep 2006 12:34 GMT
> Given the above my only real concern is doing the best I can regarding
> exposure as the bride will be in white and the groom in black.

Shoot everything in RAW. You can then adjust exposure on your computer, and
fix any mistakes that an incorrect white balance would give you.

Possibly choose a higher ISO (I often use 800) to reduce any camera shake.
Use the flash as fill-in, not as primary illumination.

HTH,

Pete.
Ian Riches - 25 Sep 2006 13:07 GMT
> I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks - 22
> people in all. There will be no official photographer or videographer so the
> guests have been asked to shoot away and grab what they can. I believe I
> will be the only person with a DSLR and suspect that there is an
> expectation, or at least a hope, that my shots might rise above the average
> P&S efforts of the rest of the guests.

<rest snipped>

I was in a similar position recently at a wedding. I have a Canon EOS
10D and 420EX.  What I did was as follows:

1) I shot RAW.  Gave me a bit more room for error in recovering
highlights.

2) I was lucky (photographically speaking...) in that the day was
overcast, and thus I didn't have to worry about flash for outdoor shots.  
The light was perfect for decent people shots.  In each location I took
one or two shots, used the histogram to help assess the exposure, then
dialed this exposure in on M (manual).  As long as the light didn't
change, I was then fine without having to worry about the meter being
fooled by acres of black tux or white dress.  This worked very well, and
it was educational to see how the meter moved about either side of my
manual exposure setting, while my shots came out exposed as I wanted
them.

3) When things moved inside later on and the flash was necessary, I
generally used at least ISO 400 or 800.  This made the most of what
light there was, gave a less "stark" look, and, because the flash output
was lower than it would have been at ISO 100, gave less scope for
obvious flash metering errors.  Even my relatively ancient 10D gives
very usable prints at 10x8 with ISO 800.

On the subject of flash metering, read, learn and inwardly digest
http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/, particularly if you don't
already know how your camera behaves with flash when in P, AV, TV, M
modes, etc.  Behaviour in P, for instance, is *very* different from AV.

4) I took *plenty* of shots.  You will not believe how difficult it is
to get a group of people all looking vaguely recognisable as humans at
the same time.  Plenty of shots were destined straight for the bin, as
Auntie so-and-so had her eyes shut, or Uncle whatsit had a decidedly odd
leer.

Have fun.

Ian
Signature

Ian Riches
Bedford, UK

Tiny Tim - 25 Sep 2006 13:26 GMT
>> I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks - 22
>> people in all. There will be no official photographer or videographer so
[quoted text clipped - 45 lines]
>
> Ian

Thanks for the tips. I must admit that it hadn't occured to me to meter once
and use manual mode to keep the EV from bouncing all over the place,
depending upon which subject was in the metering zone at the time. Should be
much simpler that way. I just hope the light stays constant at each location
as I have not yet got into the habit of checking exposure data - I
concentrate on the composition and just rely on the camera to sort out the
EV. That needs to change.

I knew the flash side of things was going to be a trial, just from the
manual supplied with the 580EX, but that webpage is pretty huge. I'll look
forward to reading that lot and hopefully some will sink in. Thanks again
:-)
Todd H. - 25 Sep 2006 18:26 GMT
> I have not yet got into the habit of checking exposure data - I
> concentrate on the composition and just rely on the camera to sort out the
> EV. That needs to change.

Indeed in the EOS digital world.  I just shot another wedding with my
300D and 540EX.  Exposure lock helps a little bit, if you pick a
neutral density spot to point it at, but goddamn that metering system
throws crap all over the map.   You've got way more to think about
than composition I'm afraid.

Get your camera into the review mode that includes the histogram, and
you have to review every goddamn shot to make sure you haven't
heinously under or overexposed things.  You'll be able to ferret out
hte underexposed or overexposed stuff quickly with the histogram
review enabled.  If you aren't comfortable with the histogram yet, get
comfortable with it as it really is the key to dialing in proper
exposure and knowing when you need to adjust exposure compensation and
take another frame.

The exposure latitude of Film and having a good printer be able to
normalize exposure when there were metering variations was a _lot_
easier in this respect.

Hopefully your camera with ETTL-II doesn't suck as badly as the 300D
at ETTL-I.

I don't shoot RAW because wth the number of shots I take in a
photojournalistic style, I'd need to triple my CF card collection to
fit everything, and I target the value end of the wedding photography
scene, and I don't want to take all the extra time to go and dial
things in for every single shot.      

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.  
http://www.toddh.net/
Randall Ainsworth - 26 Sep 2006 02:43 GMT
> I don't shoot RAW because wth the number of shots I take in a
> photojournalistic style, I'd need to triple my CF card collection to
> fit everything, and I target the value end of the wedding photography
> scene, and I don't want to take all the extra time to go and dial
> things in for every single shot.      

Dump the photojournalist crap and learn about lighting and posing. Your
photography will be better off in the long run.

And dump that Peavy and get a real bass.
Todd H. - 26 Sep 2006 03:04 GMT
> > I don't shoot RAW because wth the number of shots I take in a
> > photojournalistic style, I'd need to triple my CF card collection to
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Dump the photojournalist crap and learn about lighting and posing. Your
> photography will be better off in the long run.

Yer probably right.  But somehow I keep getting hired without doing
any advertising, so I guess I'm stuck with skills that have gotten me
this far.   If only I could shake these apparently happy customers.
Let's keep it our little secret though Randy.  :-)

> And dump that Peavy and get a real bass.

sh.t, if only the 300D were as predictably reliable a performer as my
Peavey axes, I wouldn't be grinding the E-TTL axe whenever the subject
comes up.

Got any flash photography galleries to share in a wedding bent to
enlighten us further?

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.  
http://www.toddh.net/
Randall Ainsworth - 26 Sep 2006 04:02 GMT
> Yer probably right.  But somehow I keep getting hired without doing
> any advertising, so I guess I'm stuck with skills that have gotten me
> this far.   If only I could shake these apparently happy customers.
> Let's keep it our little secret though Randy.  :-)

I really think that the photojournalism thing is a fad and will not
endure. For many, it's a coverup for lack of talent.

> sh.t, if only the 300D were as predictably reliable a performer as my
> Peavey axes, I wouldn't be grinding the E-TTL axe whenever the subject
> comes up.

I've never been a fan of anything Peavey. I have a Strat, Jazz bass, a
cheap Yamaha acoustic, a 6-string banjo, and a 6/12 doubleneck. The
Strat goes through a Mesa Boogie, the banjo and acoustic through a
Marshall acoustic amp, and the bass through a Fender bass head/bin.

> Got any flash photography galleries to share in a wedding bent to
> enlighten us further?

I stopped doing weddings in 1995 and hope to never do another. I used 2
lights - Norman portable for a long time and Photogenic AC-powered
lights in the later years.
Todd H. - 26 Sep 2006 04:14 GMT
> > Yer probably right.  But somehow I keep getting hired without doing
> > any advertising, so I guess I'm stuck with skills that have gotten me
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I really think that the photojournalism thing is a fad and will not
> endure. For many, it's a coverup for lack of talent.

I guess I was shooting before it became a fad.  How would you define
this photojournalistic style?  

I'm still shootin all the posed crap people want certainly, but during
the ceremony, I'm grabbing moments left and right, and same at the
reception.    Having come from sports and event photography for papers
and yearbooks in my earliest days it's always how I've approached
em. I guess.   My clients know straight up if they want someone
showing up with location lighting and a backdrop doing a lot of formal
portraits, I'm not their guy.    But then again, they're not payin me
$2000+ for a location fee, and having to pay $5-$10 a frame for any
and all prints on the back end.

> > sh.t, if only the 300D were as predictably reliable a performer as my
> > Peavey axes, I wouldn't be grinding the E-TTL axe whenever the subject
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> Strat goes through a Mesa Boogie, the banjo and acoustic through a
> Marshall acoustic amp, and the bass through a Fender bass head/bin.

You gotta dump the 70's mindset.  You won't find a Peavey bass that
hums like those overrated but ubuiquitous Fender Jazz's.  Hell my
Foundation sounds a lot better than a Jazz, and the Cirrus won't even
talk to you if you compare it to a Jazz.

But hell I don't wanna talk anyone out of dissin Peavey actually,
because then the bargains on resale will be mine all mine on Ebay.
:-)   But next time you have a chance, actually play a Peavey bass.
I'm sure someone will buy your 60Hz hum-mesister Jazz after you
replace it.  

> > Got any flash photography galleries to share in a wedding bent to
> > enlighten us further?
>
> I stopped doing weddings in 1995 and hope to never do another. I
> used 2 lights - Norman portable for a long time and Photogenic
> AC-powered lights in the later years.

Yeah, that's the crap I never wanted to deal with on location, and if
folks are expecting it I bid them well to go elsewhere and spend 4x.
:-)

Best Regards,
--
Todd H.  
http://www.toddh.net/
Paul Furman - 26 Sep 2006 17:41 GMT
> 1) I shot RAW.  Gave me a bit more room for error in recovering
> highlights.

Yup

> 2) ...In each location I took
> one or two shots, used the histogram to help assess the exposure, then
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> manual exposure setting, while my shots came out exposed as I wanted
> them.

I think this is a great idea. Some experimenting might help and it's a
simple move to flip back to A or S mode if you see something out of sorts.

> 3) flash output
> was lower than it would have been

I suck with flash but dialing down the flash so it's only a soft fill is
good advice. Open up the aperture for low light & pay attention to
focus, shallow DOF is great when intentional for mood.

Signature

Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 23 Oct 2006 18:50 GMT
> I was in a similar position recently at a wedding.

As was I - I was one of the two official photographers, but neither of
us had any experience. The bridal couple simply didn't have a "real"
photographer.

> I have a Canon EOS 10D and 420EX.

Canon EOS 300D and Sigma Super 500 DG over here.

> What I did was as follows:
>
> 1) I shot RAW.  Gave me a bit more room for error in recovering
> highlights.

Definitely. You -will- blow highlights in the bride's dress, and you'll
want to get those back. It's also important for fixing white balance (I
warmed up my outdoor shots, and performed major surgery on some of the
indoor ones.). But see point #4...

> 2) I was lucky (photographically speaking...) in that the day was
> overcast, and thus I didn't have to worry about flash for outdoor shots.
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> manual exposure setting, while my shots came out exposed as I wanted
> them.

Similar to what I did. The day was also overcast, but I used fill flash
anyway (there were still shadows on the faces, just not as extreme as
you'd get on a clear day). I used primarily aperture priority while
outdoors, both for DoF control and because of the way the camera meters
flash in Av mode. At the beginning of the shoot I had problems with my
flash sync speed - shooting in aperture priority, I would often end up
needing shutter speeds faster than my sync speed, but since I was
limited by the sync speed I ended up getting those shots overexposed. I
fixed this in part by lowering my ISO to 100 (which of course uses
slower shutter speeds than ISO 400, which is where I started).

The Sigma flash does have high-speed sync, but it's annoying to use
when you're in a hurry because it has a habit of turning itself off
automatically.

I was using -1 to -2 stops of flash exposure compensation the whole
time.

I shot almost the entire thing with the Rebel's 18-55 kit lens.

> 3) When things moved inside later on and the flash was necessary, I
> generally used at least ISO 400 or 800.  This made the most of what
> light there was, gave a less "stark" look, and, because the flash output
> was lower than it would have been at ISO 100, gave less scope for
> obvious flash metering errors.  Even my relatively ancient 10D gives
> very usable prints at 10x8 with ISO 800.

I ended up going as high as ISO 1600 indoors when I wasn't using flash.
Here it was critical that I shoot RAW, because the lighting of the
venue was really weird - sort of a fluorescent-type of lamp that does
scary things to skin colors.

I stuck to manual mode for most of the indoor shots - once I had the
exposure right, it made my life a lot easier. The flash was still on
automatic when I was using it - again, it was direct flash, not
bounced, and at -1 to -2 stops FEC.

> On the subject of flash metering, read, learn and inwardly digest
> http://photonotes.org/articles/eos-flash/, particularly if you don't
> already know how your camera behaves with flash when in P, AV, TV, M
> modes, etc.  Behaviour in P, for instance, is *very* different from AV.

Couldn't agree with this more. I actually realized while shooting the
wedding that I have no idea how the flash behaves in M mode, but the
results were roughly what I wanted (yay digital and instant review!) so
I kept with it.

> 4) I took *plenty* of shots.  You will not believe how difficult it is
> to get a group of people all looking vaguely recognisable as humans at
> the same time.  Plenty of shots were destined straight for the bin, as
> Auntie so-and-so had her eyes shut, or Uncle whatsit had a decidedly odd
> leer.

I ended up with ~800 (!) shots, about 5.5 GB. I have 2.5 GB of flash
cards - there were two trips home to empty them (no, I don't have a
laptop). This is important! Make sure you know how many pictures you
can take, and make sure you budget your shots. Especially if you're
shooting RAW. You're in an easier position than I was, in that you're
not the official photographer, so no one's really counting on you. I
had a photo budget figured out, and found one point in the day where I
had time to run home and dump photos to my PC (between the ceremony and
the formal photos, while the couple was in the receiving line). I ended
up sending a friend home with two cards later on, while I continued
shooting with the third.

> Have fun.

Definitely. It -was- fun (that's why we do this, right?), though
high-stress.

I'll add my own point:

5) Make a little effort to give the bridal couple their photos in some
concrete fashion, not just a CD full of JPGs. We ended up getting the
film developed at Costco's one-hour during the reception, so that they
had those photos by dessert (which they were THRILLED about - how many
people can show off their wedding pics AT their wedding?). I had the
digital shots online the next day (all 800, unedited), and an edited
and sorted subset posted the next day. Again, they loved that - speed
means a lot. When I finished the final editing (which included some
exposure correction, straigtening, cloning, etc.), I gave them a CD,
but, on a whim, threw together a DVD slideshow using some software that
came with my DVD burner. I'd never used it before. I grabbed some
classical music as a background track and made the whole thing in less
than an hour. I later found out that the bride watched it something
like 15 times in the first week after I gave it to her.

Moral of the story: Even if the pictures aren't that great, they mean a
lot to the bridal couple. A little extra effort can turn even casual
shots into a gift that will be really appreciated.

And again, have fun :-)

- Darryl
Rod Williams - 27 Sep 2006 16:44 GMT
> I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks - 22
> people in all. There will be no official photographer or videographer so the
> guests have been asked to shoot away and grab what they can. I believe I
> will be the only person with a DSLR and suspect that there is an
> expectation, or at least a hope, that my shots might rise above the average
> P&S efforts of the rest of the guests.

I shot my son's wedding last May. I have a Rebel XT and a 580Ex. I found
pretty quickly that the way I had envisioned shooting was not going to
be a possibility. I shot all RAW let the camera and flash make the
exposure decisions and shot away. Luckily I have Photoshop CS2. I was
able to get about 90 good shots out of 120, after Photoshop. I would be
careful of high ISO because a lot of what I shot was slightly
underexposed and noise can become a problem. You definitely need a good
noise reduction program or Photoshop plugin.
John McWilliams - 27 Sep 2006 16:54 GMT
>> I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks -
>> 22 people in all. There will be no official photographer or
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> underexposed and noise can become a problem. You definitely need a good
> noise reduction program or Photoshop plugin.

What ISO did you use? What lens? 90 good ones out of 120 is a handsome
yield.

Signature

John McWilliams

Rod Williams - 28 Sep 2006 15:09 GMT
>>> I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks -
>>> 22 people in all. There will be no official photographer or
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> What ISO did you use? What lens? 90 good ones out of 120 is a handsome
> yield.

ISO 400 With a 28-105 3.5-4.5 USMII lens. Keep in mind, I always tell
people that the results are 50% camera,lens,flash and 50% Photoshop. It
was RAW and Photoshop that let me get that many good pictures.
Tiny Tim - 21 Oct 2006 20:34 GMT
> ISO 400 With a 28-105 3.5-4.5 USMII lens. Keep in mind, I always tell
> people that the results are 50% camera,lens,flash and 50% Photoshop. It
> was RAW and Photoshop that let me get that many good pictures.

Well the wedding was on 6th October and I've only just finished selecting
and editing the photos I feel inclined to show the B&G. It's taken a long
time because I hadn't really got my workflow sorted out (I'm quite new to
raw and to dealing with 700+ photos in one hit) and as I learned new things
I went and revisited my tweaks. I was also trying out different bits of
software so ended up redoing things over and over. To be honest I made a
fair old hash of the photos straight out of the camera and I think my bacon
was saved because I shot in raw and spent several man-days editing and
re-editing.

My final editing solution was to use Canon's DPP to process the raw files
from the 30D, adjusting white balance and exposure and cropping, and then
producing max quality jpeg files from the raw images. I did try fiddling
around with sharpness, contrast and occasionally colour tone but in the end
set them all back to standard settings. My preferred picture style was
"standard" throughout. Where a picture need straightening I used Picasa to
tweak the jpegs output from DPP and the original jpegs from the P&S cameras.
One of the hardest things to do was to rate the photos into good/bad/ugly so
that I could figure out which to focus my attention and which to dump
completely. I had in mind to try to pick 40 or so crackers but found it
impossible to limit my selection to so few as the B&G really just wanted
memories of the day rather than a traditional wedding album. Remember there
was no official/paid photographer and I was just doing the best job I could
while remaining one of the guests.

I did try out DXO Optics 4, Capture One and PSE5 but returned to DPP, which
I really quite like and find quick and easy to use. DXO Optics did a nice
job on full auto with many of the photos but made a hash of several and I
didn't have the inclination to learn manual control of the software. Capture
One didn't really grab me and the full price is way too steep and I wasn't
going to spend time learning it for 30 days trial use. As for PSE5, I just
don't seem to get on with PS software - I've tried PSE4, CS2 and now PSE5.
I'm sure it's just a question of investing the time to learn but I find the
interface fragmented (keep having to swap between basic edit and advanced
modes) and it runs far too slowly on my humble little PIII 900 laptop when
processing raw files. DPP is much snappier and delivers result far quicker,
as long as all you need is simple correction of basic exposure and WB errors
and a bit of cropping.

I shot 622 photos (572 on my 30D and 50 on my Sony P200 P&S camera) and
ended up with around 200 shots that I hope the B&G will like. Technically
there are several that are a bit ropey but I still think the B&G and friends
will enjoy looking at them. On a TV slideshow they look just fine. A few of
the photos are by my girlfriend, and taken with her Canon Ixus 800 IS. What
did strike me was that even though I made some big errors with the 30D the
photos completely massacre those from the P&S cameras for quality at
anything beyond five feet. For anyone interested the album is here....

http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/KimAndy3Photos .

Comments, criticisms and questions are welcome :-)
Joan - 21 Oct 2006 23:02 GMT
A great set of memories for all to share there.

Signature

Joan
http://www.flickr.com/photos/joan-in-manly

: Well the wedding was on 6th October and I've only just finished selecting
: and editing the photos I feel inclined to show the B&G. It's taken a long
[quoted text clipped - 47 lines]
:
: Comments, criticisms and questions are welcome :-)
JC Dill - 22 Oct 2006 01:48 GMT
>Well the wedding was on 6th October and I've only just finished selecting
>and editing the photos I feel inclined to show the B&G. It's taken a long
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>was saved because I shot in raw and spent several man-days editing and
>re-editing.

Now you know why wedding (and other professional) photographers charge
so much!  Even when you shoot correctly straight out of the camera and
have a good workflow, there's a LOT of work that has to happen after
the photos are taken before you can show them to the customers.

> I had in mind to try to pick 40 or so crackers but found it
>impossible to limit my selection to so few as the B&G really just wanted
>memories of the day rather than a traditional wedding album. Remember there
>was no official/paid photographer and I was just doing the best job I could
>while remaining one of the guests.

>I shot 622 photos (572 on my 30D and 50 on my Sony P200 P&S camera) and
>ended up with around 200 shots that I hope the B&G will like.

>http://picasaweb.google.com/EezyTiger/KimAndy3Photos .

All in all, I think you did a great job and I hope the B&G are very
pleased.

(However, I would not have shot, or kept, some of your "body area" -
were those shot at the request of the bride or groom?  They seem a bit
out of place in a wedding album and would put most B&Gs off from
widely sharing the URL with all their friends and family.  JMHO.)

jc

Signature

"The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."  
    ~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA

Tiny Tim - 22 Oct 2006 06:14 GMT
>>Well the wedding was on 6th October and I've only just finished selecting
>>and editing the photos I feel inclined to show the B&G. It's taken a long
[quoted text clipped - 35 lines]
>
> jc

Fair point about the "body shots". I think I'll tuck them somewhere a bit
safer :-)
www.kevinkienlein.com - 22 Oct 2006 10:33 GMT
i would just like to thak you for mentioning DPP... i have a canon digital
rebel, and did not know of this software... it will be handy in my arsenal
of stuff... more programs to learn!!

i am jsut new to dig pix... thanks to everyone on the NG for such great info
on this and other things too... kk

Signature

=>Kevin Kienlein - Entertainer/Inspirational Speaker
=>Vernon, BC, Canada
=>See my NEW WEBSITE http://www.kevinkienlein.com
=>Never give in, NEVER, NEVER, NEVER!
=>Life is the Gig, THIS AIN'T NO REHEARSAL!
=>Age 46/Tricuspid, Atresia, Atrial & Vent, Septal Defects.
=>My Congenital Heart Defects

Randall Ainsworth - 22 Oct 2006 18:58 GMT
700 pictures at a wedding?  Jeez man, be discriminating.
Tiny Tim - 22 Oct 2006 22:39 GMT
> 700 pictures at a wedding?  Jeez man, be discriminating.

That may sound like a lot but the figure of 714 photos includes 92 taken by
my girlfriend, 572 taken by me on my 30D throughout the day and 50 snaps
taken by me using the Sony P200 during the reception lunch and on into the
evening. As a friend of the B&G, rather than a paid professional, I was
asked to capture events throughout the day and grab informal unposed shots
to record the memories rather than to create a formal, posed wedding album.

As an amateur, using the new flash gun for the first time I felt happier
making sure I took lots of shots in order to secure a few solid ones. In the
main people were not posed and I did not have the luxury of setting shots up
and taking my time to guarantee that each shot was golden. People can blink,
move or pull odd expressions at the most unfortunate moments so I just
grabbed my opportunities as they appeared.

Breaking down the stats, I took 622 of the 714 photos. These 622 break down
as follows....

143 shots taken during the preparations and milling about at the house
between 07:45 and 10:55. That's an average of 44 shots per hour for me.

251 shots taken at the service venue from arrivals through the service and
on to outdoor group and semi-posed shots 11:27 - 12:57). 14 of those were
for confetti throwing alone. That does seem rather a high shot rate, at 166
per hour - almost 3 per minute but like I said, I was there to capture the
moments - the expressions, the laughter, the B&G and the guests all at once
in a short space of time. This was not about simply getting a shot of the
exchange of rings, the kiss, the register signing and half a dozen posed
shots.

228 shots at the reception from 13:10 to 21:08. That's 38 shots per hour.

Having spent many hours reviewing the photos I have classified them based on
subjective quality and graded them as....

160 for the bin (probably another 40 to join them from the 1* folder).
230 1* - not really worth putting into an album but people may want to
browse through them for interest/amusement.
120 2* - some good shots but there are other similar shots but perhaps a
little better in the 3* folder
210 3* - the best candidates for making it through to the final album,
should there be one. But there is so much variety that downselecting is hard
to do. I can't do it so really its over to the B&G to decide what they want.

I imagine there will be around 100 keepers there that would be worth putting
onto a DVD slideshow or something, not due to technical excellence or
anything like that, but simply because they capture the character of all the
people present and the whole day from beginning to end. I did take an awful
lot of photos but hopefully not a lot of awful photos. For the princely sum
of £0.00 I think the B&G should be very happy with what I've managed to
produce and they'll end up with far more varied and interesting memories to
reflect on than they would get from a traditional "pro". They should also be
better off to the tune of about £800-£1,000 or so. Not a bad little wedding
gift :-) (I did actually buy them one of those too ;-) )

I agree that 622 shots is a lot and if I was more experienced and more
confident in my equipment (or my use of it!) then I dare say I could have
dropped that figure down by almost half. But to do what the B&G wanted and
to get candids throughout the day it would have been hard to do it in less.
Even with just 22 guests in total just five portraits/candids of each guest
would be 110 photos . Add the formals and informal groups, plus bits and
bobs like shoes, cake, rings, dress, place settings etc. and you're soon up
to 200+. Double that for a safety margin for cock-ups, blinkers etc.. and
400 is not unreasonable for someone who knows what they're doing. I reckon
600ish was just about right for me :-)
Randall Ainsworth - 23 Oct 2006 01:29 GMT
That's still waaaaaay too many.
Randall Ainsworth - 22 Oct 2006 18:59 GMT
Learn about lighing and posing, then stay out of the church during the
ceremony.
Tiny Tim - 22 Oct 2006 22:45 GMT
> Learn about lighing and posing, then stay out of the church during the
> ceremony.

I don't know to whom you are replying but if it was to me I didn't go
anywhere near a church all day. This was a registry office wedding and
photography was positively encouraged. Nobody seemed to mind one bit that I
took a lot of photographs. As for posing, that is expressly what the B&G did
not want! They wanted informal shots, candids, people enjoying themselves
and being themselves, not posing with a broom up their a....

But thanks for your wise words of advice, even if they were two weeks after
the event. I shall be better prepared next time ;-)
Geoff Ellis - 23 Oct 2006 10:53 GMT
>snip
>
> But thanks for your wise words of advice, even if they were two weeks after
> the event. I shall be better prepared next time ;-)

Hey, I'm with you Tiny, over a long day like that I'm into at least your
tally. Where others may take a shot I'll take three, four, five, maybe
six. Get em on the puter and pick the best, delete the others, works for me!
People don't object at a doo like a wedding, fact I have been invited to
the weddings of people I don't know, just to take pictures, and I hate
bloddy weddings. :)
Randall Ainsworth - 23 Oct 2006 13:23 GMT
> Hey, I'm with you Tiny, over a long day like that I'm into at least your
> tally. Where others may take a shot I'll take three, four, five, maybe
> six. Get em on the puter and pick the best, delete the others, works for me!
> People don't object at a doo like a wedding, fact I have been invited to
> the weddings of people I don't know, just to take pictures, and I hate
> bloddy weddings. :)

Just because you can doesn't mean you should.

Just because you can take hundreds of shots with virtually no cost
doesn't make it right. Back in the days of motor drives, people would
just hold down the button and hope there was something good in there.
Same concept in the digital age. Learn what you're doing and you won't
have to be constantly pressing the button.
Geoff Ellis - 23 Oct 2006 14:13 GMT
snip

 Learn what you're doing and you won't
> have to be constantly pressing the button.

I know what I'm doing ;)
Cynicor - 23 Oct 2006 16:25 GMT
>> Hey, I'm with you Tiny, over a long day like that I'm into at least your
>> tally. Where others may take a shot I'll take three, four, five, maybe
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Same concept in the digital age. Learn what you're doing and you won't
> have to be constantly pressing the button.

Except that you'll find that some clients like a shot that's completely
different from the one you like. Better to take one too many than one
too few.
madhobbit.geo@yahoo.com - 23 Oct 2006 20:13 GMT
> > Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
> >
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> different from the one you like. Better to take one too many than one
> too few.

In my recent case, I took ~800 shots. Far more than I was planning to,
and, frankly, more than I really wanted to take, but I had exactly zero
experience shooting weddings, and was erring on the side of caution.

When I trimmed the selection down to 200 frames or whatever the final
count was, the bride was terrified that I wasn't going to give her the
other 600 shots. Many of them were some combination of repetitive,
badly exposed, blurry, crooked, or badly composed. Others were test
shots that I just took while setting exposure. Most of them had
terrible white balance because I was shooting on auto white balance and
hadn't bothered correcting those ones. A lot of them had people with
their eyes closed, or looking away from the camera, or talking, or
whatever.

And you know what? The bride wanted *every single one*. As far as I can
tell, she didn't care how bad they were - they were *all* memories from
*her* wedding, dagnabbit, and she didn't want to let a single shot get
away.

Just because you -can- hold back and limit the number of shots you
take, doesn't mean you should :-)

- Darryl
Geoff Ellis - 23 Oct 2006 20:37 GMT
>>> Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 30 lines]
>
> - Darryl

Way to go! :)
Randall Ainsworth - 24 Oct 2006 03:29 GMT
> Just because you -can- hold back and limit the number of shots you
> take, doesn't mean you should :-)

It's not holding back, it's called editing.
Tiny Tim - 05 Nov 2006 15:03 GMT
>>> Just because you can doesn't mean you should.
>>>
[quoted text clipped - 32 lines]
>
> - Darryl

FWIW the B&G came to visit us the last couple of days and we went through
the photos. They love them all! I dumped 163 of the original 714 (they
never got to see those) but of the 551 photos that remain they want every
single one. They're going to put them on a DVD and enjoy watching the lot.
For them it is all about the memories and not the finer points of technical
excellence in every shot.

I got the shots that no pro would have bothered with and the B&G got exactly
what they wanted. Many of their friends are equally impressed as the photos
really capture the day and do not follow the standard boring old posed set
of shots.

Regards,
Tim.
JC Dill - 05 Nov 2006 17:22 GMT
>I got the shots that no pro would have bothered with and the B&G got exactly
>what they wanted. Many of their friends are equally impressed as the photos
>really capture the day and do not follow the standard boring old posed set
>of shots.

A friend of mine keeps saying he "hopes he's never good enough to
shoot weddings" because he never wants to be hired to take the
standard boring old posed set of shots.  I agree - that's not the type
of thing I want to do either, but I love taking the type of photos you
describe here.  I'm glad it worked out well for you and for the B&G.

jc

Signature

"The nice thing about a mare is you get to ride a lot
of different horses without having to own that many."  
    ~ Eileen Morgan of The Mare's Nest, PA

Little Green Eyed Dragon - 06 Nov 2006 23:22 GMT
> They're going to put them on a DVD and enjoy watching the lot.
> For them it is all about the memories and not the finer points of technical
> excellence in every shot.

Doubtful, ever see that episode of Raymond where he erases the Bridal
video. More like reality, they will quickly tire of your shots as well
as the others and maybe one day on a distant anniversary look at few of
them (that is if all goes well).
Signature

Would thou choose to meet a rat eating dragon, or
a dragon, eating rat? The answer of: I am somewhere
in the middle. "Me who is part taoist and part Christian".

Randall Ainsworth - 24 Oct 2006 03:28 GMT
> Except that you'll find that some clients like a shot that's completely
> different from the one you like. Better to take one too many than one
> too few.

Tsk, tsk...amateurs...wotta ya gonna do?
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 31 Oct 2006 14:58 GMT
> Just because you can take hundreds of shots with virtually no cost
> doesn't make it right. Back in the days of motor drives, people would
> just hold down the button and hope there was something good in there.

Did you get any indication the poster did that?
Could you show us?

Or is that just you doing a completely amateurish knee-jerk
reaction to a larger number of pictures?

> Same concept in the digital age. Learn what you're doing and you won't
> have to be constantly pressing the button.

How does a pro like you glue people's eyelids open?  Over here we
use matchsticks, but they take so much time to edit out later,
and most people object to them, so we have to use whips and
electroshockers to keep them in line ...

On the other hand we get to tell them a lot they should care for
the log in their eyes, and not the splinters in ours, after they
destroy our lenses on our heads again.

-Wolfgang
Randall Ainsworth - 31 Oct 2006 15:37 GMT
> Did you get any indication the poster did that?
> Could you show us?

Taking over 1,000 pictures at a wedding is an indication of someone who
points and shoots without discrimination.

> Or is that just you doing a completely amateurish knee-jerk
> reaction to a larger number of pictures?

Amateurs take pictures of everything they see, hoping there's something
good in there. Professionals do not.

> How does a pro like you glue people's eyelids open?  Over here we
> use matchsticks, but they take so much time to edit out later,
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> the log in their eyes, and not the splinters in ours, after they
> destroy our lenses on our heads again.

OK, let mom have her e-Machine back.
Wolfgang Weisselberg - 05 Nov 2006 12:54 GMT
>> Did you get any indication the poster did that?
>> Could you show us?

> Taking over 1,000 pictures at a wedding is an indication of someone who
> points and shoots without discrimination.

Aha.  So there is no indication!

572 shots (+ 50 with a P&S) is _way_ less than 1.000.

_WAY_ less.  
Like a 28mm wide angle (35mm film equivalent) is very different
from a 50mm "normal" lens.

Unless of course you cannot handle 3 digit numbers, of course.
Nothing to be ashamed of, actually, some people just are
number-blind, just as others just cannot learn writing
orthographically.

>> Or is that just you doing a completely amateurish knee-jerk
>> reaction to a larger number of pictures?

> Amateurs take pictures of everything they see, hoping there's something
> good in there. Professionals do not.

So he's a professional.  There were so many more things to
see he did not shoot.

> OK, let mom have her e-Machine back.

Talking to yourself?  Again?

-Wolfgang
Tiny Tim - 23 Oct 2006 14:32 GMT
>>snip
>>
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> the weddings of people I don't know, just to take pictures, and I hate
> bloddy weddings. :)

Yep, I wasn't keeping count - if I saw a shot I liked I took it, as simple
as that. I didn't know when the next great facial expression or whatever
would be along so I grabbed opportunities as they presented themselves. If
that took me to 622 shots spread over 13 hours then so be it. Maybe next
time, if there is a next time, I shall be a little more economical and
better prepared (thus improving my success rate with the photos I do take)
but I certainly see no harm in attempting to capture *all* the good pictures
that presented themselves rather than just the standard obligatory set.

I was doing this as a friend, not a pro, and the B&G wanted candids of the
whole day. That's what they got. I was not shooting "A Wedding Album". I was
shooting the whole wedding day. I got many shots that I'm sure the B&G and
our friends will be thrilled with, and which a wedding pro would either not
have bothered to take, or not been present at the time to take. I did not
use motor drive once! (not even for the confetti)

When I see paparazzi at work I don't notice them weighing up each shot and
picking their moment to fire off one perfectly composed and lit shot. They
grab what they can when the opportunity presents and from the evidence I
have seen motor-drive is very much the order of the day. I have no idea of
the true stats but it wouldn't surprise me to find they fire off 600 shots
in an hour doing sports or a red carpet event. Each to his own, I suppose.
Geoff Ellis - 23 Oct 2006 15:56 GMT
. Each to his own, I suppose.

Steady there, this is Usenet ;)
Don - 28 Sep 2006 02:39 GMT
Tim

if your skills are low and just developing then allow the camera to do the hard work.  Suggest the following two options:

option one:
Shoot in raw
set aperture priority and use the aperture for dof effects if you wish otherwise use around 5.6 to 8.
set the flash for fill flash and allow it to make the decisions.  Ensure the flash exposure is linked to your focus point be it centre or off centre etc depending on the composition. (in your camera settings I think)
Unless you have good skills don't bother with using the flash and camera ability to set flash exposure as a separate action from taking the shot.
use evaluative metering
have lots of memory cards
ensure the bride and groom know that you are only an amateur and that you don't guarantee as much as one good shot!

option two:
study and practice like mad and become familiar with all the requirements of wedding photography

have a good time and suggest you go with option one:)

regards

Don

> I'm one of the guests at a small wedding party in a couple of weeks - 22
> people in all. There will be no official photographer or videographer so the
[quoted text clipped - 39 lines]
> Thanks,
> Tim.
 
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