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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006

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D200 (etc) - changing lenses

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Geoff - 19 Sep 2006 12:04 GMT
The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?

I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

geoff
tomm42 - 19 Sep 2006 13:56 GMT
> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?
>
> geoff

I'm fairly sure I turn mine off when changing lenses, but it is not an
action I'm 100% certain about. I have mostly prime lenses so I change
lenses frequently. Turning the camera off is no great loss, it is very
quick starting. I'd try to turn it off but I don't think you'd kill it
if you forgot now and then.

Tom
Espen Stranger Seland - 19 Sep 2006 14:17 GMT
>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?

No, I never do.

>I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

In that case, I've been very lucky. :-)

-espen
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Toby - 20 Sep 2006 14:01 GMT
>>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>
> In that case, I've been very lucky. :-)

I almost never turn it off to change lenses--and I sometimes change quite
often--and have had no problem in 9 months.

Toby
Paul Furman - 19 Sep 2006 15:39 GMT
> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

People say a charged sensor attracts dudt but I don't know about that.
It has to be on to clean the sensor, the battery holds the mirror up.

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Floyd L. Davidson - 19 Sep 2006 16:13 GMT
>> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is
>> this actually necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>that. It has to be on to clean the sensor, the battery holds the
>mirror up.

I don't know about the D200 specifically, but certainly the
D1 and the D2x have mirror lockup options (as opposed to using
"bulb" exposure) that do not energize the sensor.  The D200 is
no doubt the same...

The problem with the original D1 was that it required the AC
adaptor to do that, as it would not function when battery
powered.  (And lacking a handy AC adaptor, using bulb exposure
would allow cleaning, but make it more difficult, or even
impossible according to some.)

Regardless, the sensor is not energized just because the camera
is "on".  It is unlikely but not impossible that a camera would
be damaged by changing lenses while the camera is still on.

However, what is more likely to happen is a bit of static
charge, or even just managing to mesh the electrical contacts in
just the right way, will scramble the brains of the camera.  No
real harm done to the equipment, but the process of discovering
that it doesn't work and needs to be "rebooted" might well cost
a few exposures, not to mention give you heart failure when your
expensive camera fails to function properly.  The solution is to
then turn it off an wait for a bit before turning it back on,
and if that doesn't work, turn it off and change the battery.
(I don't know about other models, but removing a D2x battery
from the camera causes it to switch off, and requires a recharge
before it can be used again, even if it was fully charged when
pulled from the camera.)

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JC Dill - 19 Sep 2006 16:57 GMT
>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?

AIUI the reason for turning off a DSLR camera when you change lenses
is to ensure that the sensor isn't charged - when the sensor is
charged it attracts dust.  If the camera is on when you take the lens
off, then your sensor will attract more dust during the time the
chamber is open to the outside air.

jc

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Floyd L. Davidson - 19 Sep 2006 18:16 GMT
>>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
>off, then your sensor will attract more dust during the time the
>chamber is open to the outside air.

I am somewhat in doubt...

Is the sensor charged whenever the camera is on?  (I don't
really know, but I doubt it.)

But even if it is, the metal focal plane shutter is closed and
providing a relatively good electrostatic shield in front of the
sensor.  It isn't going to attract dust at that time.

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frederick - 20 Sep 2006 03:11 GMT
>>> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>>> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> providing a relatively good electrostatic shield in front of the
> sensor.  It isn't going to attract dust at that time.

I'm in doubt too.  The charge on the sensor is a very low voltage, and
there's an air gap then a piece of glass covering it - let alone the
metal shutter.
Bill - 20 Sep 2006 03:53 GMT
>> But even if it is, the metal focal plane shutter is closed and
>> providing a relatively good electrostatic shield in front of the
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> and there's an air gap then a piece of glass covering it - let alone
> the metal shutter.

When people say "sensor" what they mean is the glass filter over top
of it. Glass can carry a static charge, so it's plausible that dust
can become attached, and in fact we know from experience that it does.

The shutter is not a hermetical seal when closed, or open, so dust can
get past it.

Even though the "sensor" has a low voltage and charge level, tiny dust
particles floating on air currents that are virtually invisible to the
unaided eye are easily pulled onto the "sensor" from a distance of
several centimeters.

Having said all that, sensor dust generally isn't a big issue, unless
(and I really love this line) you're in the middle of the Serengeti
during a drought.

:-)
Floyd L. Davidson - 20 Sep 2006 04:53 GMT
>>> But even if it is, the metal focal plane shutter is closed and
>>> providing a relatively good electrostatic shield in front of the
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>of it. Glass can carry a static charge, so it's plausible that dust
>can become attached, and in fact we know from experience that it does.

Actually, the fact that it *is* an insulator, which cannot drain off
the charge, is the reason it becomes "charged" and attracts dust.

>The shutter is not a hermetical seal when closed, or open, so dust can
>get past it.

The opposite of the above.  The "seal" has no effect, relatively.  But
that fact that it puts a conductive shield between the sensor and the
mirror chamber is what reduces the electrical field, and thus any
attraction for dust.

>Even though the "sensor" has a low voltage and charge level, tiny dust
>particles floating on air currents that are virtually invisible to the
>unaided eye are easily pulled onto the "sensor" from a distance of
>several centimeters.

I doubt that "several centimeters" is correct for the charge that is
on a sensor.  A couple centimeters, maybe 3.  Of course that is a
major portion of the mirror chamber...

>Having said all that, sensor dust generally isn't a big issue, unless
>(and I really love this line) you're in the middle of the Serengeti
>during a drought.
>
>:-)

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frederick - 21 Sep 2006 09:58 GMT
>>>> But even if it is, the metal focal plane shutter is closed and
>>>> providing a relatively good electrostatic shield in front of the
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> Actually, the fact that it *is* an insulator, which cannot drain off
> the charge, is the reason it becomes "charged" and attracts dust.

I used the term glass loosely.
Are you sure it's glass?
If it carried a static charge, then how do you know that charge came
from the ccd?

>> The shutter is not a hermetical seal when closed, or open, so dust can
>> get past it.
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> on a sensor.  A couple centimeters, maybe 3.  Of course that is a
> major portion of the mirror chamber...
An infinite distance.  Devoid of other influences, the volt or two do
theoretically exert force from the other side of the universe.  Are you
sure that other influences don't mean that the force is insignificant
compared to other forces? When it comes to the force from the voltage
used in CCDs, I don't believe that could be measured in terms of
attractive force to suspended dist particles in air from microns
distance, let alone mm or cm.  I expect that the "charged CCD"
attracting dust is entirely myth.  But if you can show otherwise, please do.

>> Having said all that, sensor dust generally isn't a big issue, unless
>> (and I really love this line) you're in the middle of the Serengeti
>> during a drought.
>>
>> :-)
Floyd L. Davidson - 21 Sep 2006 11:25 GMT
>>>>> But even if it is, the metal focal plane shutter is closed and
>>>>> providing a relatively good electrostatic shield in front of the
[quoted text clipped - 14 lines]
>I used the term glass loosely.
>Are you sure it's glass?

It is an *insulator*.  That is what counts.  (I would expect it
is high density plastic, but it makes no difference and it might well
be a glass.)

>If it carried a static charge, then how do you know that charge
>came from the ccd?

Because it is physically attached to the CCD, which is charged.

>>> The shutter is not a hermetical seal when closed, or open, so dust can
>>> get past it.
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
>two do theoretically exert force from the other side of the
>universe.

True; but it might take an infinite amount of time before
anything on the other side of the universe moved enough to
measure.

Three centimeters might as well be an infinite distance given
the short period of time required to clean the sensor.

>Are you sure that other influences don't mean that
>the force is insignificant compared to other forces?

That is almost certainly true.  When using forced air, it
absolutely is true.  But even if someone is actually swabbing
the sensor with a damp cleaning tool, the air movement resulting
from movement of the tool is going to be many times more
significant at 2 or 3 cm than the static charge will be.

The static charge is significant because anything that actually
does get blown onto the sensor (or close enough to actually be
pulled in by the charge) is going to be *held* there.  No
bounce...

>When it
>comes to the force from the voltage used in CCDs, I don't
>believe that could be measured in terms of attractive force to
>suspended dist particles in air from microns distance, let alone
>mm or cm.

I'd expect a mm or two, maybe even a bit more.  Two cm, no.

>I expect that the "charged CCD" attracting dust is
>entirely myth.  But if you can show otherwise, please do.

I can assure you it is *not* a myth.  Anyone who maintains
electronic equipment can attest to it.  The higher the voltage
on components, the more dust collects on them.  Areas that have
good grounding to discharge electrostatic buildup will be
cleaner than insulated areas that have even just a few volts (or
for that matter no voltage at all if there is air movement)
available to supply a charge.

Poly plastic in contact with *nothing* but dry air will pick up
enough charge to attract dust!  In fact, the way the pink
anti-static plastic commonly seen as packaging material was
discovered was because a young fellow hired to wash plastic
"sample" containers was "cheating" by not rinsing them off after
washing.  In a place where thousands of them were in use, this
showed up very quickly because if they weren't rinsed they
didn't get dirty nearly as quickly.  Suddenly the work load for
the dish washer dropped dramatically.  They were being used by a
bunch of engineers who made plastics, who noticed the huge
increase in cycle times for the containers that happened when
this new guy was hired.  So they investigated.

The guy was washing the containers and putting them directly
into drying racks rather than rinsing them the way he was
supposed to do it.  That left each container coated with
automatic dishwasher soap, which is a very good water
dispersant.  It allowed a film of water to remain on the
containers, and that caused static electricity to discharge.  As
a result, no charge and much less dirt attracted to the
container from the air.  Hence it took 2-3 times as long before
it needed to be washed again.

The story I heard was that they fired the dishwasher, of course.
(Then they hired him to do something more appropriate to his
talents... :-)

The engineers immediately saw "anti-static plastic", their eyes
rolled like cash registers, and they stayed late and mixed up a
batch of plastic.  They assumed it was going to take many tries
to get it right, so they wanted to mark the batch with something
to let them know which batch was which.  All they could find
that night was some lipstick in the purse of a wife who had come
to pick up her hubby.  They tossed it in.  It worked.  It worked
very well.  They laughed about the exact terminology that should
be used to describe the color (sexist pigs that they were, it
referenced the female anatomy), and actually mixed up the
initial commercial batches still using lipstick for coloring!

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DoN. Nichols - 22 Sep 2006 03:00 GMT
According to Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com>:

    [ ... ]

> >When it
> >comes to the force from the voltage used in CCDs, I don't
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> "sample" containers was "cheating" by not rinsing them off after
> washing.  

    Note that the untreated plastics can develop a static charge in
the hundreds or thousands of volts, so of course they would attract a
lot more dust -- just as the screen of a CRT does over time (along with
the high-voltage wiring to the anode of the CRT).

    The static charges on plastics were deadly to many
semiconductors, even if they never developed enough total charge to be
felt when you reached to pick them up.  A typical IC may be designed for
voltages between 3V and perhaps 40V depending on its function.  It
requires voltages more on the order of 100V or so to damage them from
static discharge.

    Memory chips used to be particularly sensitive to this, and
sticking almost any IC into white styrofoam (as used to be common for
storing quantities of electronic components) can lead to a high failure
rate.

    As for the filter being in direct contact with the sensor -- I
believe that it is not.  I could see a spacer being needed to keep the
filter from crushing the tiny bonded wires which make connections from
the pads of the sensor to the pins which connect it to the camera's
electronics.  (Tiny, in that the wire is typically on the order of
0.001" diameter or so.)

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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Floyd L. Davidson - 22 Sep 2006 10:53 GMT
>According to Floyd L. Davidson <floyd@apaflo.com>:
>> >I expect that the "charged CCD" attracting dust is
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>lot more dust -- just as the screen of a CRT does over time (along with
>the high-voltage wiring to the anode of the CRT).

CRT screens are misleading examples just because there is a high
voltage source available, and people assume that is the cause.

The huge insulator, regardless of how high the voltage supply is,
will collect dust if a charge is available and not discharged.

>       The static charges on plastics were deadly to many
>semiconductors, even if they never developed enough total charge to be
>felt when you reached to pick them up.

A horrendous electrostatic charge can be generated by putting a
couple inches of Scotch tape on any non-conductive surface, and
removing it.  The same is true for taping paper notes (or using
any of the common "sticky notes") to something.  That's a no-no
for electronic parts (semiconductors or otherwise).

Putting parts into, or removing them from, a regular paper or
plastic envelope does the same.

Blowing air across a dry surface is another great way to
generate a huge electrostatic charge.

>A typical IC may be designed for
>voltages between 3V and perhaps 40V depending on its function.  It
>requires voltages more on the order of 100V or so to damage them from
>static discharge.

It isn't actually the voltage that causes damage.  It's the
amount of current that can flow.

Electrostatic charges commonly get up into the several thousands
of volts.  A rapid discharge, which means a relatively high
current, through electronic devices can literally "blow away"
physical parts of the circuit, which includes not only
semiconductor devices but even conductors.

Typical anti-static protection devices, such as wrist straps,
have relatively high resistance to prevent a _rapid_ discharge.
The voltage may be high, but that keeps the current low.  High
resistance and low current protects the equipment, and it also
avoids potential health hazards such as electrocution for the
user.

>       Memory chips used to be particularly sensitive to this, and
>sticking almost any IC into white styrofoam (as used to be common for
>storing quantities of electronic components) can lead to a high failure
>rate.

Using clear bubble wrap, or any plastic/paper container, or even
so much as tossing them all into a paper bag, will cause
failures.

It is not just semiconductors either.  One instance that I heard
about was a company manufacturing precision etched resistors,
back when circuits commonly contained component parts.  They had
a 6% return rate (which suggested the actual failure rate would
be higher), yet when QA did production line testing the failure
rate was virtually zero.  (Their Japanese competitors didn't
*have* a failure rate, which is what upset them.)

They eventually determined the process of putting resistors into
paper envelopes for shipping was the source of their high
failure rate.  They changed to using anti-static plastic.

>       As for the filter being in direct contact with the sensor -- I
>believe that it is not.  I could see a spacer being needed to keep the
>filter from crushing the tiny bonded wires which make connections from
>the pads of the sensor to the pins which connect it to the camera's
>electronics.  (Tiny, in that the wire is typically on the order of
>0.001" diameter or so.)

What you describe defines "in direct contact".  If the CCD and
filter were electrically bonded and conductive, there would be
little or no electrostatic charge build up.  The problem is that
the two are mounted to each other, but there is no electrical
conduction.

Whatever, electrostatic charge buildup on the filter in DSLR's
is certainly real, and is from relatively well understood
phenomenon.

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Doug Payne - 19 Sep 2006 17:35 GMT
> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

Read some of Thom Hogan's comments on the issue.

DAGS 'changing lenses site:www.bythom.com'
Alan Browne - 19 Sep 2006 18:47 GMT
> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

If the manual says turn it off, then turn it off, they had some reason
to put that there.

Chances are you could change lenses 99 times with power on w/o a
problem... but, one day...

Some electronic components suffer a "wounded soldier" effect where
damage accumulates with repeated abuse and then one day you have a hard
failure.

FWIW, my camera manuals make no such provision and I've been "power-on"
changing lenses on all three of my bodies from Minolta w/o problems
since 1994.

Cheers,
Alan.

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DoN. Nichols - 20 Sep 2006 03:31 GMT
According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
> > The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> > necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> Chances are you could change lenses 99 times with power on w/o a
> problem... but, one day...

    As you rotate the lens to remove it, it momentarily connects
adjacent contacts in the camera body together.

    Presumably, these are set up so the application of power to the
wrong pin is unlikely -- that is, the last body contact to connect to
any pin on the lens should be the one which provides power to the lens,
but still you could wind up with static zaps and other such things
which could damage the body or the lens.

> Some electronic components suffer a "wounded soldier" effect where
> damage accumulates with repeated abuse and then one day you have a hard
> failure.

    Indeed so.

> FWIW, my camera manuals make no such provision and I've been "power-on"
> changing lenses on all three of my bodies from Minolta w/o problems
> since 1994.

    I think that I normally power down the body when I change
lenses, but I am not absolutely sure.  If it were a *serious* problem, I
would think that they would put in an interlock so you can't depress the
body button to unlock the lens for changing unless power was off.  (But
-- that would use a bit more power to hold the lock engaged so maybe
not.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.
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Bill - 20 Sep 2006 04:10 GMT
> According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
>> > The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>> reason
>> to put that there.

More likely it's a "cover your a.s" line for those people who spill
beer on their camera, then change lenses, and wonder why it locks up
or shorts out.

:-)
Bill - 20 Sep 2006 04:27 GMT
>> According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:
>>> > The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> :-)

Oops...hit the send button too fast.

I also wanted to say that the manuals I've read don't warn of damage
to the camera, only an informational precaution.

The intent is probably to keep from causing damage through alternate
means, not from the act of removing or attaching a lense. I just
searched through the manual for the Nikon D70s I have on my computer
and there is no mention of lense changes what-so-ever in the Notices
section where very important safety information resides.

I also checked out the section about attaching lenses, and the icon
that indicates a note is information only, not a warning or notice of
damage. Even the technical section, where they mention caring for the
camera and turning it off when removing the battery, doesn't have
anything about removing lenses will do any harm.

Personally I never turn off the camera when switching lenses. In ten
years I've never had a problem with autofocus lenses. I just called my
Nikon friend and asked him about it, and he switches lenses all the
time and never shuts off the camera - he was surprised to even hear
about it.

Now that is not the definitive answer...just a two cents comment.
Alan Browne - 20 Sep 2006 14:08 GMT
>     I think that I normally power down the body when I change
> lenses, but I am not absolutely sure.  If it were a *serious* problem, I
> would think that they would put in an interlock so you can't depress the
> body button to unlock the lens for changing unless power was off.

I almost wrote something similar in my reply, but it would have been
"Given that today's 'on-off' switches are electronic relay types, then
it should be easy to add the lens release switch in the same circuit and
power down the camera when the release is depressed."

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Floyd L. Davidson - 20 Sep 2006 16:37 GMT
>>      I think that I normally power down the body when I change
>> lenses, but I am not absolutely sure.  If it were a *serious* problem, I
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
>the same circuit and power down the camera when the release is
>depressed."

Awful idea, because it would annoy users greatly!  (Don's idea
is much better, disable the release while the body is powered.)

Regardless, neither is necessary.  People need to be aware that
it is a _good_ _idea_ to power down before changing lenses; but
*not* because of any threat of damage to the hardware.

The risk is that the camera will become /temporarily/ confused,
which can cause erratic results, and that in turn can upset the
operator.  (The user then calls Nikon to complain... and if
Nikon says "Turn off the camera while changing lenses", everyone
would be screaming bloody murder if that were not in the
instruction manual.  So it *is*!)

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Alan Browne - 21 Sep 2006 23:47 GMT
>>>     I think that I normally power down the body when I change
>>>lenses, but I am not absolutely sure.  If it were a *serious* problem, I
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> Awful idea, because it would annoy users greatly!  (Don's idea
> is much better, disable the release while the body is powered.)

Pfft.  Interlocks have been around for a long time to protect equipment
(and people) from system failure.

What Don suggests is not as good (all due respect to Don) becasue then
people would be wondering why the lens does not release (w/o checking
the power).  It cuts both ways, but at least with a power down
interlock, there is no frustration and it is clear to the user that he
has to recycle the power switch... and yes it can be written in the
manual too.

In my case, I simply don't worry about it, and no, my cameras have never
been confused.

Cheers,
Alan
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DoN. Nichols - 22 Sep 2006 02:38 GMT
According to Alan Browne  <alan.browne@FreeLunchVideotron.ca>:

> >>>     I think that I normally power down the body when I change
> >>>lenses, but I am not absolutely sure.  If it were a *serious* problem, I
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> people would be wondering why the lens does not release (w/o checking
> the power).

    I am not offended.  It was simply offered as something which the
maker *could* do -- and probably *would* do if changing lenses with
power applied were a serious problem.  It was not at all a suggestion
that it was what a manufacturer *should* do.

    My own personal objections to it -- in either implementation
that I can think of on the D70 at least -- is that it *must* waste
power.  Either it needs to draw power when the camera is on, to insert
an interposer to prevent operation of the lens release button, or to
draw power when the camera is *off*, to remove the interposer.

    If the release button were electrical (as is the DOF preview
button), it would be easy to route the signal through an extra set of
relay contacts or an extra CMOS gate to prevent unmounting the lens with
camera power on.

    Now -- it might be possible to add a pair of solenoids to trip a
mechanical lock on for a few milliseconds when the camera is powered on,
or trip the mechanical lock off for a few milliseconds when it is
powered off.  That implementation would minimize the extra power drain.
(But -- considering that you have to have the lens off, and the camera
power on to clean the sensor -- where does this lead us? :-)

    And you could have problems with a nearly exhausted battery
preventing you from removing the lens.

    As for the user problems -- why not have both the top display
and the back display flash "Power off to change lenses" when you attempt
to press the lens release button?

>              It cuts both ways, but at least with a power down
> interlock, there is no frustration and it is clear to the user that he
> has to recycle the power switch... and yes it can be written in the
> manual too.

    If the power switch were moved to adjacent to the lens release
button, it would be very easy to do with no power requirements at all.
But -- a power switch so located would be far less ergonomic.

> In my case, I simply don't worry about it, and no, my cameras have never
> been confused.

    Nor have mine, to date.  I *believe* that I usually power down
prior to changing the lens, simply from familiarity with modular test
equipment which can be damaged by changing a plug-in while power is
applied.  But -- since I have a long history of using cameras with *no*
battery -- or at most, a tiny cell or two for powering the metering
system, it is quite likely that I forget from time to time.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Floyd L. Davidson - 22 Sep 2006 11:12 GMT
>>>>     I think that I normally power down the body when I change
>>>>lenses, but I am not absolutely sure.  If it were a *serious* problem, I
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
>it is clear to the user that he has to recycle the power
>switch... and yes it can be written in the manual too.

The power on/off circuitry doesn't work the way you apparently
are assuming it does though.  If hitting the lense release
button simply turned the camera off, but did not *lock* it off,
that would be okay, perhaps.  But a lense interlock, with the
existing power switching used by Nikon (others might be
different), would require that the camera could not be powered
up with the lense removed.

The power switch requires *continuity* to maintain a power up
status.  It is not a _momentary_ latching relay.  The camera would
either be off only while the release button is depressed, or it
would have to be off any time there is no lense fully mounted.
Neither is suitable.

>In my case, I simply don't worry about it, and no, my cameras
>have never been confused.

I don't know if most people would even notice if their camera
was a little "confused".  Certainly if it entirely failed to
function, but often minor problems cause people to automatically
power cycle devices, and the instant it works the incident is
forgotten.

Whatever, I don't know that I've ever gotten a camera confused
by hot swapping lenses, but I've certainly had to power cycle
more than once to get a sane device.  It is not a problem.  I'd
think an interlock would be a *lot* more annoying than needs
be...

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Rita Ä Berkowitz - 22 Sep 2006 12:03 GMT
> The power on/off circuitry doesn't work the way you apparently
> are assuming it does though.  If hitting the lense release
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> different), would require that the camera could not be powered
> up with the lense removed.

Fortunately, Nikon sees the foolishness of adding all these interlocks.  The
other issue is a consumer would have to waste 15-seconds of their time to
devise ways of circumventing these interlocks.  This also would be a pain in
the a.s when you have to clean the old sensor.

> Whatever, I don't know that I've ever gotten a camera confused
> by hot swapping lenses, but I've certainly had to power cycle
> more than once to get a sane device.  It is not a problem.  I'd
> think an interlock would be a *lot* more annoying than needs
> be...

Agreed!  Leave well enough alone.  Plus, manufacturers go by the theory that
if you are buying a dSLR you should be smart enough to read and comprehend
the instruction manual.

Rita
Espen Stranger Seland - 26 Sep 2006 14:24 GMT
>If the manual says turn it off, then turn it off, they had some reason
>to put that there.
>
>Chances are you could change lenses 99 times with power on w/o a
>problem... but, one day...

Then I'll just have my camera repaired. :-)

-espen
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babalooixnay@hotmail.com - 19 Sep 2006 21:03 GMT
> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

One thing that does happen and I found out the hard way is that the
camera loses track of what lens is on and some functions won't work
(Autofocus is one if I remember correctly)  I came from manual "F"s
right to digital and I use only primes.  Turning the camera off to
change a lens was something I just couldn't get through my finger/brain
co-ordination.  After too many times I couldn't get the lenses to
function properly and the body had to go back for warranty.  They
corrected it and the work order noted a buffer adjustment.  The next
time it happened (I told you it was a hard habit to break) I had to
back up and remember exactly which lens was on when it was first turned
on.  Replacing that lens and then shutting down and back up restored
it.  I've broken the habit, or at least I don't get to four or five
lens changes before I realize what I've done.
BobF@nonono.com - 19 Sep 2006 23:09 GMT
>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
>I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?
>
>geoff

If the manual says turn it off, then turn it off... very few pieces of equipment
are designed to have electrical parts removed when powered on, some equipment
will burn out immediately (some 1980's modem cards had this feature... I burned
one up pretty good once inside a mainframe when I thought the switch was off but
was on). The problem has to do with power sequencing in the circuit, if you
first energize the "middle" of a series chain of transistors for example, the
"top" connection will be un-powered and will act negative through the virtual
ground of the power supply filters, instead of positive, causing the top
transistor to be on instead of off at the same time the lower transistor is on,
causing a total short circuit.  Also some entire chips can turn into virtual
SCR's and "lockup" until power is removed. Other effects include the linear
operation of digital chips. Either case is bad!

Some equipment can stand up to it, but the program in the camera or lens for
example may crash and you will get weirdly exposed pictures. If you do cause
damage - forget the warranty - they will know!

NOTE:  USB is designed for hot startup... read 'designed'!
Alan Browne - 20 Sep 2006 14:16 GMT
>>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> are designed to have electrical parts removed when powered on, some equipment
> will burn out immediately (some 1980's modem cards had this feature... I burned
<snipped>

A lot of cards now days are being designed for hot swapping.
Ethernet cards now don't care if you have a crossover cable or not, they
re-configure automatically.
USB was designed with hot swaps in mind.
We were always told (long ago) to power off terminals when
dis/re-connecting RS-232 cables, ... but never did.

My camera manuals are mute on the subject and I've been hot swapping
lenses since 1994 w/o ill effect.

But I agree in this case, if the manual says to do something, then do it.

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BobF@nonono.com - 21 Sep 2006 00:06 GMT
>>>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>>>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
>Ethernet cards now don't care if you have a crossover cable or not, they
>re-configure automatically.

I can't remember the part numbers, but there was a pair of chips in the 80s,  RX
and TX sets, and boy-O-boy were they bitchy about power! And when they went,
they became DEAD SHORTS across the power supply!

>USB was designed with hot swaps in mind.
>We were always told (long ago) to power off terminals when
>dis/re-connecting RS-232 cables, ... but never did.

The only time I got into trouble with that was when they had all metal plugs,
and if you weren't careful, you would short out the connector with the side of
the plug!  I remember my nephew blew out the port chip on his Commodore because
of those metal plugs... cost $20 for the chip!

>My camera manuals are mute on the subject and I've been hot swapping
>lenses since 1994 w/o ill effect.

Ever since I blew out a transmitter card in a radio tower on top of a mountain
(with no spare), I'm a stickler for turning stuff off!

>But I agree in this case, if the manual says to do something, then do it.
Ed Ruf  (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) - 19 Sep 2006 23:48 GMT
>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
>I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

What did you pay for the body? Got any really good lenses, what did you pay
for them? The manufacturer says turn off the camera when changing lenses.
VR lenses specifically about not doing this as it may lock up the VR
related circuitry. Why would you disregard their advice knowingly? That
said, Sh*t happens and we all do things inadvertently from time to time.
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http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html

John McWilliams - 20 Sep 2006 02:51 GMT
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:

>> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> related circuitry. Why would you disregard their advice knowingly? That
> said, Sh*t happens and we all do things inadvertently from time to time.

Good points. I have also accidentally changed lenses without turning off
the camera, and no noticeable damage, but to wantonly disregard a
competent mfg's advice is taking an unnecessary risk.

That said, there must also be some manufacturer's advice(s) that are
ridiculous- can any one cite some related to cameras?

Signature

John McWilliams

Geoff - 21 Sep 2006 08:27 GMT
Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:

>> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this
>> actually necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> advice knowingly? That said, Sh*t happens and we all do things
> inadvertently from time to time.

I repair complex electronic equipment, and I know that some manufacturers
often make all sorts of recommendations (probably on the advice of lawyers)
where there may not be any technical reason.

It would be of great comfort to know that a minor inadvertent slip-up will
not damage my lenses.  It would be *interesting* to know if there is any
real necessity to power down.

geoff
cjcampbell - 22 Sep 2006 03:08 GMT
> Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
> >
[quoted text clipped - 18 lines]
> not damage my lenses.  It would be *interesting* to know if there is any
> real necessity to power down.

Well, Thom Hogan has had some bad experiences in changing lenses
without powering down. It has been known to cause the camera to lock up
and require a system reset to get it working again.
Pete D - 22 Sep 2006 10:49 GMT
>> Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!) wrote:
>> >
[quoted text clipped - 24 lines]
> without powering down. It has been known to cause the camera to lock up
> and require a system reset to get it working again.

Canon?
Floyd L. Davidson - 22 Sep 2006 10:55 GMT
>> It would be of great comfort to know that a minor inadvertent slip-up will
>> not damage my lenses.  It would be *interesting* to know if there is any
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
>without powering down. It has been known to cause the camera to lock up
>and require a system reset to get it working again.

For people used to MicroSoft Windows, I suppose having to reboot
the system with regularity just doesn't seem unusual though.
Hence, avoiding it might not be considered a "real necessity".

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David J Taylor - 22 Sep 2006 11:19 GMT
[]
> For people used to MicroSoft Windows, I suppose having to reboot
> the system with regularity just doesn't seem unusual though.
> Hence, avoiding it might not be considered a "real necessity".

It certainly does seem unusual to me.  My Windows systems stay up for
months without requiring a reboot.  Last reboot on the NT4 system was due
to a power outage.  Internet facing systems are usually updated once a
month with security updates, which may require a reboot.

It is a myth that MS Windows systems /have/ to be rebooted, providing they
are not running a 16-bit-based OS (i.e. Windows 9X).

David
John McWilliams - 22 Sep 2006 16:46 GMT
> []
>> For people used to MicroSoft Windows, I suppose having to reboot
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> to a power outage.  Internet facing systems are usually updated once a
> month with security updates, which may require a reboot.

But it's still recommended you power down the system when changing
monitors......

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David J Taylor - 22 Sep 2006 16:49 GMT
>> []
>>> For people used to MicroSoft Windows, I suppose having to reboot
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> But it's still recommended you power down the system when changing
> monitors......

<G>

David
cjcampbell - 20 Sep 2006 11:59 GMT
> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?

It seems to depend a lot on the lens. You are unlikely to have any
problem with any lens unless you remove it while it is focusing or
while VR is active. So, if you manage to always avoid pressing any
buttons while changing lenses, you are probably safe.
Don Wiss - 20 Sep 2006 15:11 GMT
>> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>while VR is active. So, if you manage to always avoid pressing any
>buttons while changing lenses, you are probably safe.

That makes sense. So if you have the camera set to continuous focus then
you should turn off the camera (or as you point out set to Active VR).

Don <www.donwiss.com> (e-mail link at home page bottom).
BobF@nonono.com - 21 Sep 2006 00:12 GMT
>The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
>necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
>I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?
>
>geoff

Another thing... the Sony Alpha100 activates the lens motor when the camera is
turned on (just testing it I guess) and when you turn it off it runs the lens to
infinity.

This is a camera you >better< turn off before changing lenses!!
k-man - 22 Sep 2006 13:07 GMT
I try to turn it off but sometimes don't and nothing bad's happened.

Kevin

> The manual says to turn the camera off to change a lens.  Is this actually
> necessary/optional/vital/whatever ?
>
> I've inadvertently failed to turnoff and no damage, but was I just lucky ?
>
> geoff
 
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