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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006D80 problems
I have had this camera for about three hours. Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS open fine. The lovely Nikon Picture Project software will open the images but when one tries to send that image to CS2 the image will not open, "Could not complete your request because it is not the right kind of document." All available information is that the D80 nef/raw format is compatible with CS2 et al. I am presuming that this particular camera is defective in that it is unable to record nef information correctly the memory card. It exhibits this behavior with three different memory cards and is the same whether the card is read by a card reader or via the camera directly connected to the computer. Nikon quality. Caveat emptor. >I have had this camera for about three hours. >Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] >All available information is that the D80 nef/raw format is compatible with >CS2 et al. Don't know where you're looking, but ACR always lags behind. It was that way with the D200. See http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bb6a869.3bc18e63 User quality. Caveat emptor. Try downloading the DNG converter from Adobe, converting the NEFs to DNG and then opening the DNGs in CS2, until ACR is updated. http://www.adobe.com/support/downloads/product.jsp?product=106&platform=Windows Otherwise convert in PP and save as a TIF until ACR is updated.  SignatureEd Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com) http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html > I have had this camera for about three hours. > Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Nikon quality. > Caveat emptor. I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some information, i.e. they are not lossless. This is one of the reasons I prefer Canon - all other consideration apart - because the Canon RAW files are in a lossless format. Colin D. SignaturePosted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com > I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some information, i.e. > they are not lossless. > > This is one of the reasons I prefer Canon - all other consideration > apart - because the Canon RAW files are in a lossless format. So are the Nikon RAWs - if you don't chose the compressed mode. IF you do, yes, true, it clips some information. Cheers, ink >> I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some information, i.e. >> they are not lossless. [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > So are the Nikon RAWs - if you don't chose the compressed mode. IF you do, > yes, true, it clips some information. Err and how do you switch from compressed mode... >>> I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some >>> information, i.e. they are not lossless. [quoted text clipped - 7 lines] > Err > and how do you switch from compressed mode... You RTFM. geoff >>>> I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some >>>> information, i.e. they are not lossless. [quoted text clipped - 8 lines] > > You RTFM. I have RTFM... I don't believe that you can. >>>>> I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some >>>>> information, i.e. they are not lossless. [quoted text clipped - 11 lines] > I have RTFM... > I don't believe that you can. At least not on a D80 >>>>>> I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some >>>>>> information, i.e. they are not lossless. [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] >> >At least not on a D80 I downloaded the Nikon manual for the D80, and it doesn't have the option to switch. From the file sizes listed, it apparently uses a compressed NEF format. They indicate a RAW image file will be about 12Mb. That is with a 10 MP image. The D2x, with a 12 MP image, generates 10-12 Mb files for Compressed NEF and 19-21Mb files for Uncompressed NEF. It looks like the D80 has a little more information of some kind being saved, but that is probably EXIF data or other non-image data. SignatureFloyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com > > I have RTFM... > > I don't believe that you can. > > > At least not on a D80 No one has ever come across an example of the compressed NEFs clipping info. They aren't jpegs. Some wedding photogs say they can see it in white dresses in original files, but it doesn't show once they down sample for the web. An uncompressed NEF still can be compressed by 15-20% by lossless compression so Nikon is not doing any more than a slight tweak in the highlights. Again I have never seen examples of a difference in the compressed and uncompressed files. For some just the suggestion of lossy compression is enough to not use compressed NEFs. But since I can get 100 more files on a 2gig card if I use compressed. I believe the D70 only had a compressed option, the D80 may be following that. Unless you are a major wedding shooter I wouldn't worry. Tom >> > I have RTFM... >> > I don't believe that you can. [quoted text clipped - 3 lines] >No one has ever come across an example of the compressed NEFs clipping >info. Compressed NEF format uses a non-linear quantization curve to compress 12 bit linear data into a 9.5 bit non-linear format. The number of values in the highest fstop is reduced by about a factor of 5, roughly from about 1000 values to about 180 values (compared to 69 for JPEG). The second, third and fourth fstop range is reduced from about 1700 levels to about 256 (compared to 134 for JPEG). At 5 fstops and down there is no difference, with 255 levels total (compared to 73 for JPEG). (Uncompressed NEF files do not use the entire set of 4096 levels available, as the top fstop, with 2048 values available, actually can record only about 1000 levels. Not a significant loss.) >They aren't jpegs. Some wedding photogs say they can see it in >white dresses in original files, but it doesn't show once they down >sample for the web. That is a fair comparison. On the other hand, they aren't Uncompressed 12 bit RAW NEF files either... ;-) It only goes about half as far as JPEG does, and does not affect shadows at all. >An uncompressed NEF still can be compressed by >15-20% by lossless compression so Nikon is not doing any more than a >slight tweak in the highlights. The have reduced it from about 3000 levels being recorded to 683. The compression is heavily weighted towards the top end, but it is certainly more than "a slight tweak". >Again I have never seen examples of a >difference in the compressed and uncompressed files. I doubt that most people likely to buy a D80 will ever notice the difference. However, it can easily be demonstrated, and anyone who typically adjusts exposure by pushing the histogram up against the right end (or uses the highlight display to set exposure to just below the point of blowing out highlights) is definitely going to see that difference. But for an image which can be exposed at 1 fstop below where the highlights get blown, and then be adjusted using PhotoShop to bring the highlights back to max, the highlights will be almost the same as if it were saved in Uncompressed NEF (of course trying to pull the shadows out will not be as successful, because it just dropped 1 fstop of dynamic range to capture the highlights). >For some just the >suggestion of lossy compression is enough to not use compressed NEFs. >But since I can get 100 more files on a 2gig card if I use compressed. >I believe the D70 only had a compressed option, the D80 may be >following that. Unless you are a major wedding shooter I wouldn't >worry. I'd expect most photographers that will actually be able to see the difference, are likely to be looking at the D2X anyway. SignatureFloyd L. Davidson <http://www.apaflo.com/floyd_davidson> Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com > I have RTFM... > I don't believe that you can. Must be something that they dropped for the 80 over the 200 then.... geofff Most editing software checks the image to see if the software knows how to process the RAW image. This is done by checking the EXIF entries "Maker" and "Model". If one or more characters in either field does not match the acceptable values within the software, the software will not open then image. When the D70s was introduced, no other software could read its NEF files even though they were the same as the D70 except for the "s" after the "D70". Some programming photographers wrote a small utility program to change the "Model" from "D70s" to "D70" with the terminating x00 in the EXIF, and everything worked fine. > > I have RTFM... > > I don't believe that you can. > > Must be something that they dropped for the 80 over the 200 then.... > > geofff Did you receive a copy of PictureProject with your D80? Nikon includes a RAW plug in for PhotoShop on the enclosed CD. You may have to remove Adobe's Nikon plug in in order to get this to work. >From Adobe's User Forum: http://www.adobeforums.com/cgi-bin/webx/.3bc18e63 I think the posters misnamed the program to Picture Perfect. > Most editing software checks the image to see if the software knows how > to process the RAW image. This is done by checking the EXIF entries [quoted text clipped - 12 lines] > > > > geofff > > I have had this camera for about three hours. > > Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS [quoted text clipped - 13 lines] > I understand that Nikon RAW (NEF) files throw away some information, > i.e. they are not lossless. Not completely true. Some Nikon RAW files are compressed, but they do not necessarily throw away information. Nikon calls the compressed RAW files "virtually lossless," whatever that means. But some Nikon files are not compressed at all. On the D200 you can choose either "compressed RAW" or "uncompressed RAW." Oddly, it does not seem to make much difference in file size, but it makes a huge difference in write speed. The D70 offered only a compressed RAW format. I have not looked up the D80 to see if it offers uncompressed RAW. In any event, all of the data stored is all the data stored. If a camera does not store all of the data its sensor picks up (and no camera does) then whatever is left and stored in the file cannot truly be said to be lost. Which is why your next assertion is just silly. > This is one of the reasons I prefer Canon - all other consideration > apart - because the Canon RAW files are in a lossless format. I would not guarantee that. Even RAW data must be processed somewhat in order to convert it to a file. Canon uses a lot of different RAW formats. Canon might not say so, but some data must be modified or thrown away in the process. Just how much probably varies from camera to camera and maybe even from one version of firmware to another. Actually my problem is that I do not know if the problem is that the Adobe raw converter does not recognize the D80 raw/nef format or there really is a problem with the camera. Just because the Nikon Picture Perfect software opens the files does not give me an answer. If the newest version of the Adobe converter is supposed to recognize the D200 raw format one would logically presume that holds for the D80 as well. I have emailed Adobe because there is no specific information about compatibility on their web site. The tech support person at the other end of the Nikon telelphone support line had no clue. > If the newest version of the Adobe converter is supposed to recognize > the D200 raw format one would logically presume that holds for the D80 > as well. The D200 has been out for a lot longer, so that wouldn't be a logical presumption at all. Camera Raw doesn't yet support the D80. You'll have to wait for the next release. Meanwhile, lobby Nikon to support DNG out of camera so people can stop having this problem every time a new camera comes out. SignatureJeremy | jeremy@exit109.com > Camera Raw doesn't yet support the D80. You'll have to wait for the next > release. Or maybe the one after that; the 'next' release was announced today; D80 doesn't seem to be among the newly supported cameras. bmoag schreef: > Actually my problem is that I do not know if the problem is that the Adobe > raw converter does not recognize the D80 raw/nef format or there really is a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > site. The tech support person at the other end of the Nikon telelphone > support line had no clue. It's the Adobe Raw converter. They didn't update it yet. Nikon changed something in there NEF's !!! -=Rob > Actually my problem is that I do not know if the problem is that the Adobe > raw converter does not recognize the D80 raw/nef format or there really is a [quoted text clipped - 5 lines] > site. The tech support person at the other end of the Nikon telelphone > support line had no clue. Just remember when they brought out the D2Xs they didn't have a RAW converter for it. Nikon wasn't going to upgrade N. Capture 4.4 and Capture NX wasn't ready. So after a bunch of photographers spent $4500 for the camera, and wanted RAW they had to release a Beta version of NX. Give Adobe a little time though, this example was with a camera Nikon knew it was bringing out, with Nikons Raw program. Tom >I have had this camera for about three hours. > Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS > open fine. > The lovely Nikon Picture Project software will open the images but when > one tries to send that image to CS2 the image will not open, "Could not > complete your request because it is not the right kind of document." Can Nikon Picture Project (which I spurn as I would a rabid dog) convert NEFs to TIFFs? I know Nikon View can (although it's possible you would have to run each image through the Nikon Editor part of that) and I suspect the latest version of Nikon View is more likely to support the D80 already than CS2 is. SignatureApteryx > I have had this camera for about three hours. > Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS [quoted text clipped - 4 lines] > All available information is that the D80 nef/raw format is compatible with > CS2 et al. Really? Where did you get that information? I just did a quick Google and found dozens of articles saying that it was not yet compatible with CS2 but that Adobe was working real hard on it. Once it is done you will have to download the updated RAW converter. I am presuming that this particular camera is defective in that > it is unable to record nef information correctly the memory card. It > exhibits this behavior with three different memory cards and is the same > whether the card is read by a card reader or via the camera directly > connected to the computer. > Nikon quality. > Caveat emptor. Especially the stupid ones. >> I have had this camera for about three hours. >> Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS [quoted text clipped - 9 lines] >CS2 but that Adobe was working real hard on it. Once it is done you >will have to download the updated RAW converter. From the horse's mouth: http://www.adobe.com/products/photoshop/cameraraw.html "Note: Adobe Camera Raw 3.6 development has been accelerated to accommodate recently announced cameras such as the Nikon D80 and the Canon EOS 400D / Digital Rebel Xti. The update will be provided this fall." SignatureEd Ruf (Usenet2@EdwardG.Ruf.com) http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html Until the 3rd party editors update their software to support or recognize the D80, you will have to use Nikon Capture NX to open the D80's NEF and then you can use Nikon's Capture NX file option "Open With..." to open the active image in PhotoShop CS2. Or you could save the NEF's as a TIFF file and then open the TIFF file in PhotoShop CS2. > I have had this camera for about three hours. > Raw format images are not recognized by CS2 or any other converter. JPEGS [quoted text clipped - 10 lines] > Nikon quality. > Caveat emptor. |
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