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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006

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How lenses affect resolution and suggestion

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Padu - 05 Sep 2006 18:48 GMT
Hi,

I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have
very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed (i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but
I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to
distinguish (I mean, when you're looking at catalogs) which one is better.

I just bought a sony alpha with a kit lens (18-80mm) and I have a 28-80mm
from an old minolta and I'm thinking about doing some comparison shots to
see how they compare. I think I will make in corel draw a pattern with
different thicknes lines and shoot it with the two lenses.

Any other suggestions?

Cheers

Padu
glenn Jacobs - 05 Sep 2006 19:47 GMT
> Path: be05!atl-c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local02.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.iswest.net!news.iswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 12:48:45 -0500
[quoted text clipped - 36 lines]
>
> Padu

That would be a start.  Remember the resolution will probably vary through
out the field so you would want test lines at various orientations and
locations through out the field of view.  It may be that you can buy ready
made charts.  I bought a set from the Government in the 60's.

Also each lens should be tested through out the range of 'f' stop settings
and at asteps in front and  in back of the best focus.  You will probably
discover that the focus point varies depending on how far you are from the
focal axis of the lens.  At the same time you want to check the contrast of
the resulting photos as that is another important parameter for judging
lenses.  I am not sure how to do this with a digital, but I suspect someone
has written a program to do just that, or perhaps you can get the info out
of photoshop.

JakeInHartsel
glenn Jacobs - 05 Sep 2006 20:16 GMT
> Path: be01!atl-c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!pc02.usenetserver.com!STARBAND.NET!not-for-mail
> From: glenn Jacobs <gjacobs.starband.removethis.net>
[quoted text clipped - 53 lines]
>>
>> Cheers
And the Lenses should be tested at different focal length settings.  Sorry
I have never really made it into the modern era of Zoom Photography!

JakeInHartsel
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 05 Sep 2006 21:16 GMT
>> Path: be05!atl-c01.usenetserver.com!news.usenetserver.com!border1.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!local02.nntp.dca.giganews.com!nntp.iswest.net!news.iswest.net.POSTED!not-for-mail
>> NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 05 Sep 2006 12:48:45 -0500
>> From: "Padu" <padu@merlotti.com>

Dude!  Fix your reader so that your aren't including headers in your
follow-up.

Signature

Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

Ole Larsen - 05 Sep 2006 20:21 GMT
Padu skrev:
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Padu

http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html

Might give you some ideas

Signature

Med venlig hilsen, Ole Larsen.
New Images And Design, aug. 2006
http://Olelarsen.eu/

Padu - 06 Sep 2006 17:31 GMT
"Ole Larsen"
> http://www.normankoren.com/Tutorials/MTF5.html
>
> Might give you some ideas

Thanks for the reading, very good indeed. Gave me a few ideas.

Cheers

Padu
bmoag - 05 Sep 2006 21:50 GMT
Lens resolution is important but in the digital world where sharpness is a
function of the sensor and software image processing resolution is difficult
to absolutely quantify and does not have the same meaning as in an all film
world.
Are you going to use jpeg? Raw? Autofocus? Manual focus?
The Sony Alpha has a wonderfully bright viewfinder but the viewscreen is not
reliable for critical manual focusing. This is a common problem with the
vast majority of autofocus film/dSLR cameras which have conditioned us to
approximate focus.
Nevertheless comparing lenses by photographing grids and other images under
identical conditions is one of the best exercises an interested photographer
can do.
The qualities of lens performance that I think are easiest to examine with
side by side comparisons  using a digital SLR are linear distortion,
chromatic aberration and relative quantifications of contrast or flare.
Some lenses really are problematic but most are reasonably capable and in a
Photoshop world many of the previously cherished distinctions between lenses
are moot: type a number in the CS2 distortion filter and barrel distortion
is not the factor it was previously in determining the quality of images
that can be made with a particular lens.
ColinD - 06 Sep 2006 02:04 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Padu

With respect, using line charts to judge lens/camera performance is like
judging a high-quality sound system by using a series of sine-wave
tones, in other words, useless except for really gross errors.
Resolution by itself is not the answer; modelling, tone rendition,
flare, distortion, 'pop', are all part of a lens' performance, and
isolating any one of them will tell you nothing about the overall
performance.  Some of the best pictorial lenses are not the sharpest,
and the sharpest lenses usually render flat images with poor tonal
qualities.

I suggest you read up on lens qualities like the above before you try to
judge with such charts as you mention.

Colin D.

Signature

Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

cjcampbell - 06 Sep 2006 04:24 GMT
> > Hi,
> >
[quoted text clipped - 26 lines]
> I suggest you read up on lens qualities like the above before you try to
> judge with such charts as you mention.

Truly. While it is always interesting to compare lenses, charts will
not tell you everything you need to know and they certainly will not
tell you what a flower will look like when photographed against a
backdrop of shrubbery or whether it is 'flattering' to a model or not.
Charts will not measure bokeh, the way the lens renders out-of-focus
areas.

As a general rule, there is no such thing as a bad lens. There are only
lenses that are used badly.
w.beckley@gmail.com - 06 Sep 2006 07:41 GMT
> Truly. While it is always interesting to compare lenses, charts will
> not tell you everything you need to know and they certainly will not
> tell you what a flower will look like when photographed against a
> backdrop of shrubbery or whether it is 'flattering' to a model or not.
> Charts will not measure bokeh, the way the lens renders out-of-focus
> areas.

I'll second that. The only way to compare lenses, really, is to shoot a
variety of real-world subjects you might shoot regularly and do a blind
comparison.

As a cinematographer, I'll test various series of lenses (Zeiss
Superspeeds vs Zeiss Ultraprimes vs Cooke Panchros vs Cooke S4s, for
example) for a film by shooting some footage with each series under
conditions that I know I'll be shooting for that film. I look at the
footage and go with the series that "feels right" for the project. You
should do the same with your two lenses... you'll likely find that one
is right for portraits and detail shots, for example, and the other
excels at landscapes and wider street photography. Or something like
that, where each lens has its own use.

Fascinatingly, as a photographer, I've never actually done such
comparisons, largely because owning lenses for the long haul is
different from renting them for a single project. Still, my kit does
include one area of overlap (my Canon 28mm/1.8 and Canon 16-35/2.8) and
I've never tested the differences. Now that you've got me, as a
photographer, thinking like I do as a cinematographer, I think I'll do
some comparisons as soon as I get a day off. Why I hadn't done so
before is beyond me.

Will
Padu - 06 Sep 2006 17:24 GMT
I think I got the idea. I'll try to do the comparisons shooting real
subjects (under a controlled environment) and see the differences.
What triggered these questions in my mind was a set of photos that I did
with my 28-80 that was expected to be better than my kit lens and it was
actually worst (low contrast), but re-analyzing the situation, most of the
pictures with low contrast involved some kind of backlighting. Maybe the
problem could be easily fixed with a lens hood (the lens kit comes with a
small one), but anyway, now I'm curious and I'll probably test them anyway.

I've already realized that 28mm in one lens is different than 28mm of
another. I'll need to check, but I don't believe that sony bundles a
"digital" lens with the A100, so at least in theory they should have the
same focal distance right?

Cheers

Padu
cjcampbell - 07 Sep 2006 01:58 GMT
> I think I got the idea. I'll try to do the comparisons shooting real
> subjects (under a controlled environment) and see the differences.
[quoted text clipped - 9 lines]
> "digital" lens with the A100, so at least in theory they should have the
> same focal distance right?

Yes, that is what focal length means. They are both 28mm lenses.
However, the angle of view might not be the same on two different
cameras because the digital sensors might be of different sizes. One
sensor might be taking just a small piece of the image out of the
center and another might take a much larger piece. So, even though both
lenses are 28mm, one will appear to be a wider angle than the other
because the first is mounted on a camera with a larger sensor. The
lenses might also produce different size image circles, so a lens
designed for use with a small sensor would not have an image circle
that covers a larger sensor. But note that image circle is a completely
different thing than focal length.
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 06 Sep 2006 05:17 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Padu

This may give you some ideas:

http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/relative-lens-sharpness

Roger
RichA - 06 Sep 2006 18:56 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
>
> Padu

Rule of thumb.  Two lenses from the same mfg and era, the slower one
will likely be sharper.  There are reasons for it, but it may not apply
to highly corrected and expensive fast telephoto lenses which are
produced to function near peak wide open.
David Ruether - 06 Sep 2006 20:37 GMT
> I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed
> (i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to distinguish (I mean, when you're
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>
> Any other suggestions?

I don't find lens testing charts very useful, mainly since at the distances
used for them, the lenses (especially zooms) are often nearly at their
worst - and the charts are hard to align properly with the image plane,
making the results worse than they might be (and really correct focus
is difficult on a planar surface), and these charts give you little idea
of contrast/color-saturation performance. Try "real-world" targets.
I prefer a distant cityscape, wide enough to cover the image area. I
shoot 2 frames at each of three or four FLs of a zoom and at f4 (or f2.8
if available) and f5.6 (and f8 if the lens is likely not very good...) one
frame with one short edge aligned with the horizon line, then the other
(with all camera controls locked down) turned upside down. Later you
can then see if the lens is well aligned (equally sharp [and sharp...] at
both edges and equally sharp [and sharp by f5.6] at all four corners,
which few zooms are if you are particular...). BTW, not useful for
you, but for Nikon users there is my "Subjective Lens Evaluations,
Mostly Nikkors" at http://www.ferrario.com/ruether/slemn.html
--
David Ruether
ruether@verizon.net
rpn1@cornell.edu
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether
RichA - 07 Sep 2006 03:58 GMT
> > I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed
> > (i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to distinguish (I mean, when you're
[quoted text clipped - 15 lines]
> shoot 2 frames at each of three or four FLs of a zoom and at f4 (or f2.8
> if available) and f5.6 (and f8 if the lens is likely not very good...)

Testing the lenses wide open at 10ft would be a mistake, but stopped
down to f8 they should rid the image of residual spherical aberration
caused by being focused at less than infinity distance.
David Ruether - 07 Sep 2006 16:45 GMT
>> > I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed
>> > (i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to distinguish (I mean, when you're
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>> >
>> > Any other suggestions?

>> I don't find lens testing charts very useful, mainly since at the distances
>> used for them, the lenses (especially zooms) are often nearly at their
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
>> shoot 2 frames at each of three or four FLs of a zoom and at f4 (or f2.8
>> if available) and f5.6 (and f8 if the lens is likely not very good...)

> Testing the lenses wide open at 10ft would be a mistake, but stopped
> down to f8 they should rid the image of residual spherical aberration
> caused by being focused at less than infinity distance.

But this (mostly, but not entirely...) reduces the variations between lenses.
The real differences between good and poor lenses show up at stops
wider than about f4-5.6, which one may often want to use. For pro work,
use of f2-2.8 is common and lenses that perform well at those stops are
very desireable. (BTW, I was surprised to find how good the built-in
f2-2.4 zoom on my Sony 707 is to the corners even wide open...)
Signature

--
David Ruether
ruether@verizon.net
rpn1@cornell.edu
http://www.ferrario.com/ruether

Doug McDonald - 07 Sep 2006 18:10 GMT
> Testing the lenses wide open at 10ft would be a mistake, but stopped
> down to f8 they should rid the image of residual spherical aberration
> caused by being focused at less than infinity distance.

How do you know that they are designed for best performance
at infinity?

If a lens focuses by moving an internal element or elements,
it is possible to have more than one distance with zero
(third order) spherical aberration.

You'd have to test the lens or rather the design (on a
computer)
at various distances to tell.

Doug McDonald
Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 08 Sep 2006 02:05 GMT
>>>I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed
>>>(i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to distinguish (I mean, when you're
[quoted text clipped - 19 lines]
> down to f8 they should rid the image of residual spherical aberration
> caused by being focused at less than infinity distance.

A quality photographic lens will work quite well wide open,
and at close distances.  For example, as a demonstration
of 1) high image quality at close distances, 2) wide
open, and 3) the power of image stabilization, see this
hand held image with a 500 mm f/4 L IS telephoto:
http://www.clarkvision.com/galleries/gallery.bird/web/road.runner.c11.29.2005.JZ
3F5598.b-700.html


The super telephotos are designed to be very sharp wide
open, as that is their common use, and commonly at close range too.

Roger
RichA - 08 Sep 2006 02:42 GMT
> >>>I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed
> >>>(i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to distinguish (I mean, when you're
[quoted text clipped - 31 lines]
>
> Roger

Yes, the top grade telephotos are designed for it, since sports photogs
need the speed and are unlikely to be stopping down the lenses.  Field
curvature, coma, etc, would all be well-corrected and of course, you
pay for that in addition to the speed.
So it's possible a Canon or other lens that is 400mm f2.8 is sharper
than a 400mm f4 wide open, but unlikely if both lenses are made to the
same quality standard.  And it's "possible" a 400mm f2.8 costing $5000
is going be sharper wide open than a $1000 400mm f5.6.  It all depends
on how well each controls primary aberrations, spherical aberration and
colour error being the worst of the them.  Additionally, less than
perfect surface smoothness, cheaper coatings on lenses and less
efficient baffling will effect contrast.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 08 Sep 2006 14:30 GMT
> Yes, the top grade telephotos are designed for it, since sports photogs
> need the speed and are unlikely to be stopping down the lenses.  Field
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> perfect surface smoothness, cheaper coatings on lenses and less
> efficient baffling will effect contrast.

Will the f/2.8 be sharper wide open than the f/4 lens?  Maybe, maybe not.
However, both lenses at f/4, the f/2.8 is likely to be sharper.  Every lens
has its sweet spot, so YMMV.

Signature

Thomas T. Veldhouse
Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

Paul Furman - 08 Sep 2006 16:53 GMT
> A quality photographic lens will work quite well wide open,
> and at close distances.  For example, as a demonstration
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> The super telephotos are designed to be very sharp wide
> open, as that is their common use, and commonly at close range too.

Compare to this roadrunner crop at 200mm from a 28-200 at 200mm f/5.6
wide open:
<http://www.edgehill.net/1/?SC=go.php&DIR=California/Bay-Area/Livermore/2005-01-1
6-corral-hollow/more
>
-carefully and selectively sharpened and still a world of difference

Signature

Paul Furman
http://www.edgehill.net/1
Bay Natives
http://www.baynatives.com

AaronW - 09 Sep 2006 03:37 GMT
> I know that two lenses with the same focal distance (i.e. 28mm) may have
> very distinct qualities, such as resolution and speed (i.e. 1.4 vs 3.5), but
> I never really understood how optics may affect resolution and how to
> distinguish (I mean, when you're looking at catalogs) which one is better.

You can look up manufacturer's MTF, and read test reports.

Generally, all other things being equal:
The more expensive lens is better.
Prime is better than zoom.
Smaller zoom range is better than large zoom range, e.g., 2x better
than 10x.
Tele zoom is better than wide angle zoom in the common focal range,
e.g., 50-200 better than 24-85, in the range 50-85.
New design better than old design.
...
If you buy within the same brand, you can buy the focal length and the
aperture size you need without too much worry about quality.

http://digitcamera.tripod.com/#slr
 
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