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Photo Forum / Digital Photography / DSLR Cameras / September 2006

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6-8 meg camera owners, will you go 10 megs?

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RichA - 29 Aug 2006 00:43 GMT
Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
Jay Beckman - 29 Aug 2006 00:54 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

I have a 20D and I'd much rather move up to a 5D and relegate the 20D to
"backup status."

(In a perfect world, of course...)

Jay B
Scott W - 29 Aug 2006 01:17 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

The increase from 8 to 10 MP is far to small to make it worthwhile
upgrading, at least for me.
I am looking for something closer to 16MP for my next body, if this
takes a few years for an affordable 16 MP body I can wait.

At this time I would much rather put the money into lenses.

Scott
donharper@theedgephotography.com - 29 Aug 2006 02:16 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

I think I really have a comfort level with the 10+ megapixel cameras. I
have several others at 5 megs, but sometimes they let me down on
resolution and saturation.

I guess over time the megapixels will keep increasing, but at 10+ I see
the results I want on a more consistent basis.

Don Harper
The Edge Photography Studio
Leesburg, Virginia
Stacey - 29 Aug 2006 03:00 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.

Why would anyone worry about the difference between 8 and 10 meg?
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 Stacey

DoN. Nichols - 29 Aug 2006 03:13 GMT
According to RichA <rander3127@gmail.com>:
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

    Not a less-expensive one.

    I am considering moving from the Nikon D70 to the D200 -- but
for other reasons than the 10MP "upgrade".  I would love to be able to
switch it to use only 6MP except on a few rare occasions -- but that
would probably either increase the crop factor, or introduce artifacts
into the image.

    Enjoy,
        DoN.

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Sheldon - 29 Aug 2006 05:11 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body

Let's go back in time a bit.  Isn't that a bit like asking a 35mm owner if
they plan on getting a 2 1/4 camera?  As long as the 6 meg continues to
serve me I see no reason to upgrade.  I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
from 5 meg cameras, using software.

When I had a Hassleblad the images were nothing short of phenomenal, but for
most purposes my Nikons were just fine.
Charlie Self - 29 Aug 2006 11:12 GMT
> > Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> > less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> When I had a Hassleblad the images were nothing short of phenomenal, but for
> most purposes my Nikons were just fine.

Yeah, it seems to be like asking about going to MF right now. Except
that the jump is not really that large. I'm using 6MP right now, just
got a 20x30 shot back and am fully delighted, as will my customer be,
with the results.  Pentax is due out with a 10MP this fall, but any
addition I make won't come that early. If I do upgrade and keep the
*istD for a second body it will be mid-year next, after I'm sure all
the kinks are out of the new camera. Too, if there are too many design
changes that I don't like, such as lithium ion battery, and memory
other than CF, I may just pick up a second D or a DS and save a
whacking sum.
Little Green Eyed Dragon - 29 Aug 2006 11:34 GMT
> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
> from 5 meg cameras, using software.

Puke city.

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Sheldon - 31 Aug 2006 05:39 GMT
>> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
>> from 5 meg cameras, using software.
>
> Puke city.

Just one person's opinion.
Randall Ainsworth - 31 Aug 2006 13:02 GMT
> >> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
> >> from 5 meg cameras, using software.
> >
> > Puke city.
> >
> Just one person's opinion.

I have 16x20s on my wall made from my 10D that look great...and no
special software tricks.
HEMI-Powered - 31 Aug 2006 13:48 GMT
Today, Randall Ainsworth made these interesting comments ...

>> >> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints from 5 meg cameras,
>> >> using software.
[quoted text clipped - 3 lines]
> I have 16x20s on my wall made from my 10D that look
> great...and no special software tricks.

I used to have Super B 13 x 19's on the wall outside my office that
were printed from only 1280 x 960 images = 70 or so PPI, but they
were always viewed from 3-5 feet away so even with crappy images
and a crappy printer at the time (HP 1220C), they still looked OK,
so I am not surprised you're satisfied with your 16 x 20's from
your 10D.

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Randall Ainsworth - 31 Aug 2006 14:43 GMT
> I used to have Super B 13 x 19's on the wall outside my office that
> were printed from only 1280 x 960 images = 70 or so PPI, but they
> were always viewed from 3-5 feet away so even with crappy images
> and a crappy printer at the time (HP 1220C), they still looked OK,
> so I am not surprised you're satisfied with your 16 x 20's from
> your 10D.

It's not a matter of being satisfied from a distance. You can stand up
close and look. (I used to do photography for a living.)
HEMI-Powered - 31 Aug 2006 16:57 GMT
Today, Randall Ainsworth made these interesting comments ...

>> I used to have Super B 13 x 19's on the wall outside my
>> office that were printed from only 1280 x 960 images = 70 or
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> stand up close and look. (I used to do photography for a
> living.)

I meant no insult. I don't know you and you don't know me, so I
have no clue what your professional skills may or may not be and
I also do not have a clue as to what size image you used for your
16 x 20s nor how much you may have paid for them at a custom lab.
I was commenting about /my/ experience and observing that 16 x 20
from a quality digital is clearly possible.

Now, just because you did photography for a living says no-thing
about your skill. e.g., the wedding photographer our neighbor's
son and bride chose /clearly/ had zero skill as a wedding
photographer; he was a candid guy.

Now, since I also have no clue as to what subject you shot,
lighting conditions, exposure, paper type, brightness/contrast,
or anything else that can produce a large print that runs the
gamut from pure garbage to museum quality, so why not withdraw
your claws?

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Thomas T. Veldhouse - 31 Aug 2006 18:07 GMT
> Now, just because you did photography for a living says no-thing
> about your skill. e.g., the wedding photographer our neighbor's
> son and bride chose /clearly/ had zero skill as a wedding
> photographer; he was a candid guy.

I just watched a wedding photographer shoot my nephew's wedding with Fuji
Sensia 100 and apparently HQ 400.  She taped the boxes over the back so she
knew which camera had what.  Funny, she used really cheap zooms as well.  I
have not seen the photos that resulted, but I am curious as her choice of film
and equipment seemed lacking.  Hopefully I will get a look at the images this
weekend.

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Randall Ainsworth - 05 Sep 2006 00:17 GMT
> I meant no insult. I don't know you and you don't know me, so I
> have no clue what your professional skills may or may not be and
> I also do not have a clue as to what size image you used for your
> 16 x 20s nor how much you may have paid for them at a custom lab.
> I was commenting about /my/ experience and observing that 16 x 20
> from a quality digital is clearly possible.

All I'm saying is that with proper technique, a 6MP camera will deliver
16x20 prints that rival film with no problem.
HEMI-Powered - 05 Sep 2006 02:13 GMT
Today, Randall Ainsworth made these interesting comments ...

>> I meant no insult. I don't know you and you don't know me, so
>> I have no clue what your professional skills may or may not
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
> All I'm saying is that with proper technique, a 6MP camera
> will deliver 16x20 prints that rival film with no problem.

I never said it couldn't, in fact, I said you don't need anywhere
near 6 MP to get a quality 16 x 20 if you qualify what you meanby
"rival film with no problem". Besides, why do you care what I think
anyway, I certainly don't care what you think - did it take you an
entire week to come up with this brilliant observation?

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Mark² - 31 Aug 2006 10:12 GMT
>> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
>> from 5 meg cameras, using software.
>
> Puke city.

If you saw my 16.5" x 24" print of this shot out of my 10D:
http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/58770336/original
-You might think differently.

Here's a bigger version, but remember, this is severely reduced and jpeg
compressed:
http://www.pbase.com/markuson/image/58828940/original
The original image and the print are gorgeous...and I'm quite picky.
That's not to say I don't wish I'd shot it with the 5D I now have, but don't
underestimate the abilities of a tack-sharp image to VERY nicely from even a
less-than-huge MP count.  MF?  No.  -But good.

-Mark²

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John McWilliams - 31 Aug 2006 16:09 GMT
>>> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
>>> from 5 meg cameras, using software.
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> underestimate the abilities of a tack-sharp image to VERY nicely from even a
> less-than-huge MP count.  MF?  No.  -But good.

Certainly these are fine examples of what works with upsampling. I am
sure there are many more examples of what doesn't work. But a day light
scene, moderate range (the sun was behind a cloud, yes, Mark? or did you
process it out), and hardly any straight lines combined with an
incredible setting works beautifully.

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John McWilliams

Mark² - 31 Aug 2006 17:36 GMT
>>>> I've seen some decent 16x20 prints
>>>> from 5 meg cameras, using software.
[quoted text clipped - 17 lines]
> or did you process it out), and hardly any straight lines combined
> with an incredible setting works beautifully.

The sun was behind me, and about to dip below high cliffs...

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bmoag - 29 Aug 2006 06:55 GMT
The D70 is the best camera ever made with the worst viewing system: dim,
impossible to manual focus.
The main reason for me to consider the D200/D80 is not the sensor its the
viewfinder.
EarlCox - 01 Sep 2006 07:41 GMT
I couldn't agree more!! My D70 was a wonderful camera -- but I am 60 years
old, wear glasses, and couldn't focus on anything with the D70's terrible
viewfinder!! I bought a D200 two months ago just to get a decent VF.

> The D70 is the best camera ever made with the worst viewing system: dim,
> impossible to manual focus.
> The main reason for me to consider the D200/D80 is not the sensor its the
> viewfinder.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 29 Aug 2006 13:34 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

I intend to move from my D70 to a D200 as my primary digital body.  I may wait
for the successor to the D200, purely as a matter of finances and a lack of
"need" to update.  If I desire higher resolution, I just shoot slide film in
my F100 and scan the results.

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Christina Robertson - 29 Aug 2006 13:53 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

Nope.  I shot 35mm film before moving to digital.  My 6.1MP Minolta 7D
can do everything I did in my film days, so nope I'm quite happy where
I am.  I'm not sure why you make a distinction between the 6 and 8 meg
cameras however.  The actual useful resolution difference is so small
as to be inconsequential in my experience.

I've seen pros get amazing results out of lower MP cameras and dabblers
get horrible results from expensive higher resolution MP cameras.  Once
you reach a certain number of MPs the person behind the lens becomes
much more important than the MP number...

Christina
Alan Browne - 03 Sep 2006 17:41 GMT
>>Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
>>less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> cameras however.  The actual useful resolution difference is so small
> as to be inconsequential in my experience.

From 6 -> 8 Mpix:     16% resolution increase:   minor upgrade
From 8 -> 10 Mpix:    11% resolution increase:   hardly an upgrade
From 6 -> 10 Mpix:    29% resolution increase:   upgrade

If you print up to 8x12 and no larger, then 6 Mpix is more than adequate.

> I've seen pros get amazing results out of lower MP cameras and dabblers
> get horrible results from expensive higher resolution MP cameras.  Once
> you reach a certain number of MPs the person behind the lens becomes
> much more important than the MP number...

That's always held regardless of the camera type.

I won't buy the A100.  The body design sucks.  If they do a Maxxum 9
class machine, and preferably at about 12 Mpix, then I'll get it.
Otherwise my main cameras are the 7D, the 500 C/M and the Maxxum 9 as
backup.

Cheers,
Alan.

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Greg "_" - 04 Sep 2006 13:53 GMT
>  From 6 -> 10 Mpix:    29% resolution increase:   upgrade
> If you print up to 8x12 and no larger, then 6 Mpix is more than adequate.
[quoted text clipped - 5 lines]
> Cheers,
> Alan.

This is accurate, I am looking towards maybe a 12mp camera in the not so
distant future, although at the current price tag for such a camera I'll
probably stand the 6mp for awhile longer and maybe get a F-FL wide angle
lens and spend the remaining money in other more productive ways.
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Marc Sabatella - 04 Sep 2006 18:24 GMT
> From 6 -> 8 Mpix:     16% resolution increase:   minor upgrade
> From 8 -> 10 Mpix:    11% resolution increase:   hardly an upgrade
> From 6 -> 10 Mpix:    29% resolution increase:   upgrade
>
> If you print up to 8x12 and no larger, then 6 Mpix is more than
> adequate.

And 6 can still look pretty darn good at larger sizes, too, especially
when one considered that you aren't likely to examine larger prints as
closely.  It's really only the crop issue that starts making 6 look a
little short.  bBut personally, the upgrade to 10 still wouldn't be
worth it to me, except that it generally comes with *other* upgrades as
well.  If I upgrade from my Pentax *istDS to the K10D, for instance, it
won't be for the pixel count but for the shake reduction and other
features.

---------------
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marc@outsideshore.com

Music, art,  & educational materials
Featuring "A Jazz Improvisation Primer"
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k-man - 29 Aug 2006 14:16 GMT
I have a Nikon D70s, which has 6 MP.  If I upgrade, megapixels alone
will not be enough to justify the upgrade.  If I was worried about
enlargements or if all I did was crop all the time, then maybe.
Otherwise, no.

Kevin

> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
Ron - 29 Aug 2006 20:56 GMT
I have a 5 meg prosumer (Oly 5060) and 8 meg dslr (Oly E-300) and get
just about everything I want from them and associated lenses. Given
that I rarely do prints larger than 11x14 I see no reason that megapix
would determine a new camera. Sensor with less noise (quite manageable
on these cameras) perhaps, maybe a live lcd, maybe something a bit more
waterproof, but that's about it.

> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
Jan Böhme - 29 Aug 2006 21:53 GMT
RichA skrev:

> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

No. I feel no immediate need for a backup DSLR body. Eventually I may
go FF, but then it won't be a distinction of "firsthand alternative"
and "backup" between my 30D and a FF camera, but rather different
firsthand uses for the two bodies.

Jan Böhme
nick c - 30 Aug 2006 05:54 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

I have a 1DMKII which I use about 80% of the time.  A 30D which I use
about 5% of the time and a Elan 7NE which I use the remaining 15% of the
time for wide angle shots on Prova 100 film. Transparencies are then
scanned into my computer, using my Minolta scanner.  Generally, my
camera pairing has been the 1DMKII and the Elan 7NE. These three cameras
more than adequately cover all my photographic needs, which includes
print sizes.

Safe to say, I have no need to go ballistic over dslr's that are full
frame or have much higher pixels counts.
Chris - 30 Aug 2006 15:18 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

Even @ 6mp the glass (for most lenses) has already become the limiting
factor.  The only advantage would be having a quieter and / or
physically larger sensor.  Maybe, even more choices as far as ISO
range.  I like the fact that the 5D does ISO 50.  Even 25 would be
nice.  That way, you can take shallow DOF shots in bright light.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 30 Aug 2006 15:38 GMT
>> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
>> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
[quoted text clipped - 4 lines]
> range.  I like the fact that the 5D does ISO 50.  Even 25 would be
> nice.  That way, you can take shallow DOF shots in bright light.

Where did you get this information?  I haven't noticed a resolution bottleneck
at the 6MP size myself.  I can easily see higher resolution on 10MP photos
taken with the same basic lens (Nikkor 18-70 AFS as a standard).

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Thomas T. Veldhouse
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Chris - 30 Aug 2006 15:42 GMT
> >> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> >> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
[quoted text clipped - 12 lines]
> Thomas T. Veldhouse
> Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

I have done some of my own resolution test.  This is NOT the case for
prime lenses, but for zooms (maybe the cheaper variety).
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 30 Aug 2006 16:33 GMT
> I have done some of my own resolution test.  This is NOT the case for
> prime lenses, but for zooms (maybe the cheaper variety).

MUCH cheaper.  The D70 stock lens, the Nikkor AF-S DX 18-70mm ED lens does a
wonderful job on the D200 as far as resolution goes.  

I would be interested to know what steps you took to perform your test and
with what equipment.

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Thomas T. Veldhouse
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Chris - 30 Aug 2006 19:38 GMT
> > I have done some of my own resolution test.  This is NOT the case for
> > prime lenses, but for zooms (maybe the cheaper variety).
[quoted text clipped - 8 lines]
> Thomas T. Veldhouse
> Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

This is not a very technical test.  I would periodically zoom into
images on photoshop taken with my main prime and zoom lenses.  The
prime would stay sharp all the way to pixilation.  The zoom would go
soft before pixilation.  This is on my Canon 10D.  However, I would
argue that it does not have to be a quantitative test because the we
are arguing a qualitative question.  I have met other photogs that
would agree.  Lens quality becomes far more important once the 5mp
threshhold is crossed.  That is why I think it is silly for people to
by a cheap, point and shoot 8mp camera.  The optics have long since
become a limiting factor for these little cheap p & s cameras.  The
manufacturers know that consumers don't know jack about lens quality.
There is no single index to indicate this parameter (or set of
parameters), so the manufacturers focus on a parameter of camera
quality the public can easily look at on a sales tabloid -- that is,
the pixal count of the sensor.  I'm sure there is not a zoom lens made
that can resolve down to the 16MP count if my canon 28-135 craps out at
6MP.

Just my $.02

CM
Scott W - 30 Aug 2006 21:52 GMT
> This is not a very technical test.  I would periodically zoom into
> images on photoshop taken with my main prime and zoom lenses.  The
[quoted text clipped - 13 lines]
> that can resolve down to the 16MP count if my canon 28-135 craps out at
> 6MP.

I have two 8 MP DSLR, a 20D and a 350D, in both cases I see aliasing
from time to time using a zoom lens.  This tells me that there is more
detail then the sensor can pickup and use.  Keep in mind that there is
not only a wide range of resolution between lenses but also at what
f/number the lens is being used at.  A lens might be very soft wide
open but have good resolution at f/8 or there abouts.

Scott
Chris - 30 Aug 2006 22:32 GMT
>  > This is not a very technical test.  I would periodically zoom into
> > images on photoshop taken with my main prime and zoom lenses.  The
[quoted text clipped - 22 lines]
>
> Scott

Good point.  However, one needs to be mindful of small apatures.
Diffraction will be an issue above f/8.
Thomas T. Veldhouse - 30 Aug 2006 22:08 GMT
> the pixal count of the sensor.  I'm sure there is not a zoom lens made
> that can resolve down to the 16MP count if my canon 28-135 craps out at
> 6MP.

I am quite sure you are wrong on that point. Are you using the Canon EF
28-135/3.5-5.6 IS USM?  That probably isn't considered a "tack sharp" lens by
anybody's standards.  In any event, there is a lot to running a good test.
For one, you want to view the image at 100% on your screen and NOT just simply
zoom.  How do you display 2 image pixels on three screen pixels?  How about
the reverse?  You introduce distortion if you don't view at 100% .. exactly
100%.  Your image has to be as sharp as it can be to begin with ... take it on
a tripod, avoid issues caused by the camera [like mirror slap], make sure your
image is properly exposed ... shoot RAW to avoid processing issues like
exposure changes in software, sharpening in camera, etc.  The list goes on and
on.

In short, I have absolutely no doubt that there are lenses that can resolve to
a greater degree than the 16MP sensor can resolve.  Consider having this
discussion with your Canon full frame users of the 1Ds Mark II.  

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/specs/Canon/canon_eos1dsmkii.asp

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Thomas T. Veldhouse
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Chris - 30 Aug 2006 22:29 GMT
> > the pixal count of the sensor.  I'm sure there is not a zoom lens made
> > that can resolve down to the 16MP count if my canon 28-135 craps out at
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> Thomas T. Veldhouse
> Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE  34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1

Yes, I will consede to this point.  I did not realize how crappy my
28-135mm is compared to the zooms on the sample shots.  If you are a
1ds user, you would probably only use the very sharpest L series glass.
frederick - 31 Aug 2006 00:22 GMT
>> I have done some of my own resolution test.  This is NOT the case for
>> prime lenses, but for zooms (maybe the cheaper variety).
>
> MUCH cheaper.  The D70 stock lens, the Nikkor AF-S DX 18-70mm ED lens does a
> wonderful job on the D200 as far as resolution goes.  

The 18-70 seems to cop a lot of (mainly undue) undue flak for it's
failings - vignetting fully wide at 18mm and 70mm ends, and "moustache"
pattern distortion at 18mm.  But tests of the lens at photozone etc show
that it is sharp and has extremely low CA even at maximum aperture. Some
 idiots look at the cheap 18-55 which has slightly higher center-frame
MTF than the 18-70 at 18mm, but ignore the fact that sharpness drops off
dramatically across the frame with the cheaper lens (but even then I
think the 18-55 plastic Nikkor is better than some other makers
equivalents)  Center-frame only sharpness is useless for photographic
composition. The 18-70 also focuses quickly and silently, and within the
limitations of a zoom lens with small maximum aperture, boket is very
nice.. Photozone test it on a D200. There was a poster to this forum a
year or so ago that swore by his 18-70 as a good sharp lightweight
walk-around lens on a D2x.
Old Man River - 31 Aug 2006 05:52 GMT
Ok, my two cents.

It's more than Megapixels, especially more than two (from 8 to 10).

It's about more features, lower ISO numbers, bigger CRT screen on the back
to review pictures, ability to shoot B&W, all those little things.  My D70s
shoots great pictures, but the other things in the D200 make me want to move
up, not the increase in MP's

Old Man River

> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?
Proconsul - 31 Aug 2006 06:03 GMT
> Ok, my two cents.
>
[quoted text clipped - 6 lines]
>
> Old Man River

Dead bang right.....!

PC
Mark² - 31 Aug 2006 09:24 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

If...when it shows up in a 30D-class body...it retains 5fps, then yes.  I'd
add that to my 5D, and let my 3fps/6MP 10D rest in the hands of a family
member.  If I had the 8MP 20 or 30D, then no.

5fps with room to crop (10MP) would be very useful to me.  I have seriously
considered the 30D for 5fps and concentrating the MPs around the center
portion of telephoto shots.

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Stéphane Guillard - 31 Aug 2006 13:11 GMT
Hi,

> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

I have a Minolta 7D (6+ MP), and I am very happy with it... with one major
drawback that is common to all current digital cameras, and I will only
change for a camera that solves this problem.

This problem is the way too limited sensor dynamics. It is impossible to
shoot an outdoor pic in sunny conditions, without either burning the lit
areas to white (and retaining some details in the dark areas), or the
opposite (nice sky, totally black in the dark). In the same conditions, any
film would do much better.

I have challenged other digital cameras on this, they all end up failing the
same.

As many know, there is a very simple explanation of that problem (linear
photon flow into CCD/CMOS cells versus logarithmic quantization of that
photon flow, combined to 12 bit only for quantization).

The Sony A100 tries to address this with variable sensor gain on various
picture areas, but this is like putting a dish below a hole in the roof,
instead of fixing the roof.

I am eager to see next generation digital picture sensors that really
address this problem (though there is no technology announced at that point,
that I would be aware of).

Now, if that was to come, I would seriously consider changing my otherwise
very satisfying 7D, only for a camera that retains the real major advantages
of mine, which are features I really couldnt live with:

- "a feature = a button" ergonomy. This is underrated, and probably way more
important for me than any other selling point of a camera : I would not dare
spending any time navigating in menus, to change ISO, MF/AF, etc etc. It
makes the 7D a bit hairy in terms of buttons, but I hate for example Canon's
all-in-menus approach, and I regret that Sony went half that way with the
A100 (admittedly, Minolta had done the same with the 5D too, which served as
the A100 base).

- stabilization (either sensor or lens, I dont really care).

- neutral default picture processing (no sharpness enhancing, no gamma curve
tweaking).

All the other features are common to all cameras anyway, in one form or
another.

Bottom line : for me, MP count is absolutely not relevant in as to what
would make me switch to another camera.

Regards,
Signature

Stéphane

ian - 31 Aug 2006 13:42 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 11 lines]
> any
> film would do much better.

how did all you people ever manage with slide film?
Stéphane Guillard - 31 Aug 2006 14:24 GMT
Hi,

> how did all you people ever manage with slide film?

Never shot a single slide film. I know they have almost no tolerance to
wrong exposure, though...

Your comment is valid, probably, slide film shooters will be more at ease
with digital than others.

Anyway, this does not alleviate for the insufficient bit depth for
quantization.

Regards,
Signature

Stéphane

ian - 31 Aug 2006 17:27 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
>
> Regards,

What about this sony added dynamic range thingy?  from the samples i've seen
advanced mode does what it says on the tin.
Alan Browne - 03 Sep 2006 17:52 GMT
> Hi,
>
>>how did all you people ever manage with slide film?
>
> Never shot a single slide film. I know they have almost no tolerance to
> wrong exposure, though...

Slide film is usually about highlight placement.  For compositions you
can still use a couple stops of exposure difference depending on the
desired results.

> Your comment is valid, probably, slide film shooters will be more at ease
> with digital than others.
>
> Anyway, this does not alleviate for the insufficient bit depth for
> quantization.

There are more bits available than you can print.

Cheers,
Alan

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Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark) - 01 Sep 2006 01:03 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 21 lines]
> picture areas, but this is like putting a dish below a hole in the roof,
> instead of fixing the roof.

I don't know about the Minolta 7D, but in general, this is a completely
wrong assessment of digital sensors.

See:
 Dynamic Range and Transfer Functions of Digital Images
 and Comparison to Film
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/dynamicrange2
(examine Figure 5, and Figure 8).

 Procedures for Evaluating Digital Camera
 Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Capacities;
 Canon 1D Mark II Analysis
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-1d2
(examine table 1, column G)

Then look at:
 The Signal-to-Noise of Digital Camera images
 and Comparison to Film
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.signal.to.noise
and examine table 3.

If you're a Nikon fan, here is the dynamic range of a Nikon D50:
 The Nikon D50 Digital Camera:
 Sensor Noise, Dynamic Range, and Full Well Analysis
 http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/evaluation-nikon-d50

Even a lowly Canon S60 point and shoot has higher dynamic range than
film.  Only the really small sensor P&S cameras have lower dynamic
range.  I'll have a report on the Canon S70 soon (2.3 micron pixels).

> I am eager to see next generation digital picture sensors that really
> address this problem (though there is no technology announced at that point,
> that I would be aware of).

It is already astounding on good cameras, and will get better with
14-bit A/D converters.

My take on this myth about digital cameras having a low dynamic range
is 1) poor metering  by the cameras, and poor understanding
of metering by the photographers.  Pick up an old film photo book
and one of the first things they say is calibrate your meter.
Did you do that with your digital camera?  (Most digital photographers
will probably go: Huh?)

Roger
Alan Browne - 03 Sep 2006 17:51 GMT
> Hi,
>
[quoted text clipped - 10 lines]
> opposite (nice sky, totally black in the dark). In the same conditions, any
> film would do much better.

Almost all digital cameras have a high end similar to slide film, but a
shaddow end that is deeper.  Two exceptions are the FujiFilm S2 and S3
with lower sensitivity sensors paired with each normal sensor to get an
additional ~2 stops on the high end.  A good alternative if you have
Nikon lenses.

> I have challenged other digital cameras on this, they all end up failing the
> same.
>
> As many know, there is a very simple explanation of that problem (linear
> photon flow into CCD/CMOS cells versus logarithmic quantization of that
> photon flow, combined to 12 bit only for quantization).

Dump the numbers and photograph with what you got.  The best color film
photography is typically from slide film and it has shallower dynamic
than digital.

> The Sony A100 tries to address this with variable sensor gain on various
> picture areas, but this is like putting a dish below a hole in the roof,
> instead of fixing the roof.

It's actually not a solution but an in camera adjustment.  See comments
about the S2/S3 above.  That's a solution.

> I am eager to see next generation digital picture sensors that really
> address this problem (though there is no technology announced at that point,
> that I would be aware of).

FujiFilm S2/S3.

> Now, if that was to come, I would seriously consider changing my otherwise
> very satisfying 7D, only for a camera that retains the real major advantages
[quoted text clipped - 7 lines]
> A100 (admittedly, Minolta had done the same with the 5D too, which served as
> the A100 base).

The A100 sucks.  The Maxxum 9 is the ideal.  The Maxxum 7D falls short
in several areas regarding "buttons" such as having to hold down the
locks to adjust exp compensation or change metering mode.

> - stabilization (either sensor or lens, I dont really care).
>
> - neutral default picture processing (no sharpness enhancing, no gamma curve
> tweaking).

RAW.

> All the other features are common to all cameras anyway, in one form or
> another.
>
> Bottom line : for me, MP count is absolutely not relevant in as to what
> would make me switch to another camera.

from 6 to 10 Mpix is a 29% increase in resolution.  Not bad.

If Sony would do a 12 Mpix machine, a 41% resolution improvement in a
Maxxum 9 class machine, I would not hesitate to get one.

Cheers,
Alan.

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Michael Schnell - 01 Sep 2006 21:13 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

10 MPix makes only sense if the lens is more expensive than the camera.

-Michael
Alan Browne - 03 Sep 2006 17:32 GMT
> Especially higher-end 8 meg owners.  Do you plan to pick-up one of the
> less expensive 10 meg cameras as a second body?

From 8 to 10 Mpix, there is only an 11% increase in resolution making
it a small luxury better spent on lenses, flashes or tripods.

From 6 to 10 Mpix there is a 29% increase in resolution so somewhat
more tempting, but not a slam dunk.

Re-stating the obvious (to most): To double resolution, the number of
Mpix has to go up 4X.

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